Hi all,

Trying to help an elderly neighbour with what may or may not be an
actual issue.

She has an Everest fitted Union brand lock mech on her DG ally front
door and says that she normally double locks it at night by turning
the key twice.

Looking at it briefly tonight it seems that it does indeed double lock
and that 'may' cause the deadbolt to move out in two stages.

However, you can't (now?) turn the key completely twice but only 1.5
turns, but you can't then get the key out till you turn it back the .5
turns. It does however seem to take two turns to fully unlock the door
again (or was it 2.5 so you could get the key out again). The point is
just one turn doesn't unlock the door.

Locking it with one turn also works (as in it locks it). ;-)

So, can anyone confirm this 'double locking' on these sort of DG doors
please?

I've pulled the actual Euro lock cylinder and it seems pretty
conventional (as expected) so this would be something that would be in
the lock mechanism itself.

Cheers, T i m

On 19/10/2016 20:22, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Trying to help an elderly neighbour with what may or may not be an
actual issue.

She has an Everest fitted Union brand lock mech on her DG ally front
door and says that she normally double locks it at night by turning
the key twice.

Looking at it briefly tonight it seems that it does indeed double lock
and that 'may' cause the deadbolt to move out in two stages.

However, you can't (now?) turn the key completely twice but only 1.5
turns, but you can't then get the key out till you turn it back the .5
turns. It does however seem to take two turns to fully unlock the door
again (or was it 2.5 so you could get the key out again). The point is
just one turn doesn't unlock the door.

Locking it with one turn also works (as in it locks it). ;-)

So, can anyone confirm this 'double locking' on these sort of DG doors
please?

I've pulled the actual Euro lock cylinder and it seems pretty
conventional (as expected) so this would be something that would be in
the lock mechanism itself.

Cheers, T i m

Yes, I've got a double locking aluminium door. Turning the key through
360 degrees the second time does indeed shoot the bolt further into the
frame, making it more secure.

What happens if you turn the key with the door open? Can you then turn
it through two full turns and remove the key? If so, there's something
wrong with the alignment - stopping the bolt from moving fully when the
door is closed.

'Fraid I can't explain why it takes more turns to unlock it than to lock it!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:39:50 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

snip
Looking at it briefly tonight it seems that it does indeed double lock
and that 'may' cause the deadbolt to move out in two stages.

However, you can't (now?) turn the key completely twice but only 1.5
turns, but you can't then get the key out till you turn it back the .5
turns. It does however seem to take two turns to fully unlock the door
again (or was it 2.5 so you could get the key out again). The point is
just one turn doesn't unlock the door.

snip

Yes, I've got a double locking aluminium door. Turning the key through
360 degrees the second time does indeed shoot the bolt further into the
frame, making it more secure.

Ok thanks ... so she's not lost her marbles then. ;-)

What happens if you turn the key with the door open?

The same (as it happens).

Can you then turn
it through two full turns and remove the key?

No, I don't believe so Roger.

If so, there's something
wrong with the alignment - stopping the bolt from moving fully when the
door is closed.

Understood (and why I checked).

'Fraid I can't explain why it takes more turns to unlock it than to lock it!

Now I know it does double lock, and from what you have confirmed re
how, I think it seems to be coming out too far on stage one and
possibly ending up between stages? So, unwinding the key (720 Deg) may
still withdraw it as it should? shrug

The Mrs though she heard something falling down inside the door as
they first looked into it so maybe something has worn out / off or
come unscrewed etc?

Looking into replacements it seems the 'split spindle' (allowing the
outer handle to move independently of the inner and not allow the door
to be opened from the outside without the key under any circumstances)
has (now) been re-engineered and so also replaceable.

Assuming this is the right / same one:

http://upvcspares4repairs.co.uk/upvc...n-everest.html

Cheers, T i m

On 19/10/2016 23:11, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:39:50 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

snip
Looking at it briefly tonight it seems that it does indeed double lock
and that 'may' cause the deadbolt to move out in two stages.

However, you can't (now?) turn the key completely twice but only 1.5
turns, but you can't then get the key out till you turn it back the .5
turns. It does however seem to take two turns to fully unlock the door
again (or was it 2.5 so you could get the key out again). The point is
just one turn doesn't unlock the door.

snip

Yes, I've got a double locking aluminium door. Turning the key through
360 degrees the second time does indeed shoot the bolt further into the
frame, making it more secure.

Ok thanks ... so she's not lost her marbles then. ;-)

What happens if you turn the key with the door open?

The same (as it happens).

Can you then turn
it through two full turns and remove the key?

No, I don't believe so Roger.

If so, there's something
wrong with the alignment - stopping the bolt from moving fully when the
door is closed.

Understood (and why I checked).

'Fraid I can't explain why it takes more turns to unlock it than to lock it!

Now I know it does double lock, and from what you have confirmed re
how, I think it seems to be coming out too far on stage one and
possibly ending up between stages? So, unwinding the key (720 Deg) may
still withdraw it as it should? shrug

The Mrs though she heard something falling down inside the door as
they first looked into it so maybe something has worn out / off or
come unscrewed etc?

Looking into replacements it seems the 'split spindle' (allowing the
outer handle to move independently of the inner and not allow the door
to be opened from the outside without the key under any circumstances)
has (now) been re-engineered and so also replaceable.

Assuming this is the right / same one:

http://upvcspares4repairs.co.uk/upvc...n-everest.html

Cheers, T i m



I have an Everest door with that lock.

You just need to file two flats on a square spindle where it passes
through the lock. The flats should be on diagonally opposite corners of
the spindle as viewed end on. DIY solution to avoid paying £14.07!

There will then be two ways the spindle will go in and I can't remember
which is right. If you can't get both handles off your existing splindle
I could find out.

- As I found out after I had taken the door off and then taken the lock
to pieces.


--
Michael Chare

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On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 11:09:31 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

snip

Assuming this is the right / same one:

http://upvcspares4repairs.co.uk/upvc...n-everest.html


I have an Everest door with that lock.

Ok.

You just need to file two flats on a square spindle where it passes
through the lock. The flats should be on diagonally opposite corners of
the spindle as viewed end on. DIY solution to avoid paying £14.07!

Good thought, especially as you say, on this d-i-y group g but if
required I think I would get the lady to buy one ready made as then I
can't be held responsible, should something go wrong in the future.

There will then be two ways the spindle will go in and I can't remember
which is right. If you can't get both handles off your existing splindle
I could find out.

Thanks very much for the kind offer and I'll keep that in mind.

- As I found out after I had taken the door off and then taken the lock
to pieces.

Doh!

The issue is that the existing lock has been fine for a long time
(since the door was installed etc) although I think I may have done
something with the shoot bolts or the plates as the door was blown
shut with them expanded and one got bent (or summat) a few years back.

So, either something has now gone wrong with this lock as it's 'worn
out' (a spring broken or pin worn away) and is likely to fail
completely someday soon (as it's already proved a bit 'touchy' over
the last couple of days) or maybe it just needs a clean and re-lube or
a screw finding / replacing and locking back in place?

The problem is ... to get the lock out I think you have to first
remove the shoot bolts and to do that you probably have to take the
door off (especially for the bottom). Then, once you are in that
position and you then find out the lock really needs replacing then
you have to put it all together again to order the parts to do the
whole thing again some time later?

She's not 'hard up' as such but at the same time don't want to spend
any more of her money than necessary.

At the same time, she's old and a bit fragile and it's getting cold
out there ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 20/10/2016 11:27, T i m wrote:


The problem is ... to get the lock out I think you have to first
remove the shoot bolts and to do that you probably have to take the
door off (especially for the bottom). Then, once you are in that
position and you then find out the lock really needs replacing then
you have to put it all together again to order the parts to do the
whole thing again some time later?



Exactly! I suggest that you take the existing spindle out to see if it
has the flats. If it has the flats, I would also rotate it 90 deg just
to make sure that it has not been put in incorrectly. I am not sure if
they work or not if 90 deg wrong.


--
Michael Chare

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On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:16:15 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 20/10/2016 11:27, T i m wrote:


The problem is ... to get the lock out I think you have to first
remove the shoot bolts and to do that you probably have to take the
door off (especially for the bottom). Then, once you are in that
position and you then find out the lock really needs replacing then
you have to put it all together again to order the parts to do the
whole thing again some time later?



Exactly! I suggest that you take the existing spindle out to see if it
has the flats. If it has the flats, I would also rotate it 90 deg just
to make sure that it has not been put in incorrectly. I am not sure if
they work or not if 90 deg wrong.

The thing is ... none of this has been touched and until this recent
incident, has been working 'just fine', especially the spilt spindle
thing?

That's not to say it not might all appreciate a drop of oil or smear
of grease etc but I feel it's more to do with the deadlock than
anything else. I guess the spindle could have an impact if it stopped
the handle lifting the shoot bolts high enough to allow the cylinder
cam to turn, but it does seem to work ok for the first lock position,
just not the double?

I might take the cover plate off again (but this time in the daylight)
and see if I can see anything more.

Cheers, T i m

On 20/10/2016 16:35, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:16:15 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 20/10/2016 11:27, T i m wrote:


The problem is ... to get the lock out I think you have to first
remove the shoot bolts and to do that you probably have to take the
door off (especially for the bottom). Then, once you are in that
position and you then find out the lock really needs replacing then
you have to put it all together again to order the parts to do the
whole thing again some time later?



Exactly! I suggest that you take the existing spindle out to see if it
has the flats. If it has the flats, I would also rotate it 90 deg just
to make sure that it has not been put in incorrectly. I am not sure if
they work or not if 90 deg wrong.

The thing is ... none of this has been touched and until this recent
incident, has been working 'just fine', especially the spilt spindle
thing?

That's not to say it not might all appreciate a drop of oil or smear
of grease etc but I feel it's more to do with the deadlock than
anything else. I guess the spindle could have an impact if it stopped
the handle lifting the shoot bolts high enough to allow the cylinder
cam to turn, but it does seem to work ok for the first lock position,
just not the double?

I might take the cover plate off again (but this time in the daylight)
and see if I can see anything more.

Cheers, T i m


The door I have had a square spindle, no flats. You could turn the key
once to lock the door, but you could not lift the handle. It had
clearly never worked properly. The outside handle had rusted to the
spindle which is partly why I just filed the spindle. We have another
similar door, which is how I found out where to file the flats.

If your door worked properly it must have had a spindle with two flats.
It is possible that the handle has been removed, and then replaced with
the spindle in the wrong position. I suspect you can't raise the handle
if the spindle is removed, rotated 90 deg and then replaced.

I would try raising the handle with the door open just in case the shoot
bolts are not entering the frame properly.


--
Michael Chare

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On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:13:48 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

snip

The thing is ... none of this has been touched and until this recent
incident, has been working 'just fine', especially the spilt spindle
thing?

That's not to say it not might all appreciate a drop of oil or smear
of grease etc but I feel it's more to do with the deadlock than
anything else. I guess the spindle could have an impact if it stopped
the handle lifting the shoot bolts high enough to allow the cylinder
cam to turn, but it does seem to work ok for the first lock position,
just not the double?

snip

I would try raising the handle with the door open just in case the shoot
bolts are not entering the frame properly.

Update:

I replaced the lock with a new one and now it's all working
(specifically double-locking) again.

However, to be able to undo the door from the outside you have to pull
the door hard shut to be able to turn the key (it only turns a few
degrees anyway) and release the latch?

From the inside it's easy to undo the door because the handle releases
the latch (greater mechanical advantage).

So, I'm not sure if something still needs adjusting or it just needs
to wear in a bit?

So, should the door be held tightly closed by the shoot-bolts to take
the load off the latch? If the shoot-bolts and their plates are worn,
allowing the load to fall onto the latch, could that be a cause of
this issue?

I am reluctant to ease any of the components in case it's simply a
matter of it all bedding in and I don't think the seals are the
problem as they still feel pretty flexible?

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:13:48 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

snip

The thing is ... none of this has been touched and until this recent
incident, has been working 'just fine', especially the spilt spindle
thing?

That's not to say it not might all appreciate a drop of oil or smear
of grease etc but I feel it's more to do with the deadlock than
anything else. I guess the spindle could have an impact if it stopped
the handle lifting the shoot bolts high enough to allow the cylinder
cam to turn, but it does seem to work ok for the first lock position,
just not the double?

snip

I would try raising the handle with the door open just in case the shoot
bolts are not entering the frame properly.

Update:

I replaced the lock with a new one and now it's all working
(specifically double-locking) again.

However, to be able to undo the door from the outside you have to pull
the door hard shut to be able to turn the key (it only turns a few
degrees anyway) and release the latch?

From the inside it's easy to undo the door because the handle releases
the latch (greater mechanical advantage).

So, I'm not sure if something still needs adjusting or it just needs
to wear in a bit?

So, should the door be held tightly closed by the shoot-bolts to take
the load off the latch? If the shoot-bolts and their plates are worn,
allowing the load to fall onto the latch, could that be a cause of
this issue?

I am reluctant to ease any of the components in case it's simply a
matter of it all bedding in and I don't think the seals are the
problem as they still feel pretty flexible?

I have just hit this issue. New composite door professionally fitted.

The final key turn to move the latch requires superhuman strength
particularly as the key is tucked in beside the door stop.

Apparently the operation can easily be modified. I assume this means the
door will open once the shoot bolts are released.

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:05:13 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes
On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:13:48 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

snip

The thing is ... none of this has been touched and until this recent
incident, has been working 'just fine', especially the spilt spindle
thing?

That's not to say it not might all appreciate a drop of oil or smear
of grease etc but I feel it's more to do with the deadlock than
anything else. I guess the spindle could have an impact if it stopped
the handle lifting the shoot bolts high enough to allow the cylinder
cam to turn, but it does seem to work ok for the first lock position,
just not the double?

snip

I would try raising the handle with the door open just in case the shoot
bolts are not entering the frame properly.

Update:

I replaced the lock with a new one and now it's all working
(specifically double-locking) again.

However, to be able to undo the door from the outside you have to pull
the door hard shut to be able to turn the key (it only turns a few
degrees anyway) and release the latch?

From the inside it's easy to undo the door because the handle releases
the latch (greater mechanical advantage).

So, I'm not sure if something still needs adjusting or it just needs
to wear in a bit?

So, should the door be held tightly closed by the shoot-bolts to take
the load off the latch? If the shoot-bolts and their plates are worn,
allowing the load to fall onto the latch, could that be a cause of
this issue?

I am reluctant to ease any of the components in case it's simply a
matter of it all bedding in and I don't think the seals are the
problem as they still feel pretty flexible?

I have just hit this issue. New composite door professionally fitted.

Ok.

The final key turn to move the latch requires superhuman strength
particularly as the key is tucked in beside the door stop.

Have you tried pulling (or pushing etc) the door further closed to see
if it takes the strain off the latch Tim? I'm my case, if I 'pull /
bounce' my reasonable weight / strength on the handle as I turn the
key that last bit it could be opened by a butterfly. The Mrs has to
apply more effort than I because of her arthritic hands etc.

Apparently the operation can easily be modified.

I think what may be an issue in our case is the mix of old and new
parts.

I assume this means the
door will open once the shoot bolts are released.

When locking the door you first raise (and release) the handle
(either) that (just) engages the shoot bolts, but also clearing the
path for the cylinder tang to turn and (with two revolutions of the
key), double lock the deadbolt, and restrict the shoot bolts from
being released.

So, if you unlock the deadbolt and carry on turning the key past the
two turns till it stops, the next (maybe) 20 degrees would release the
latch. If you were / could to keep the key in that final position and
*then* use the handle to release the shoot bolts, I'm wondering if
that would keep the load off the latch or if it should, if the top and
bottom shoot bolt plates weren't worn to the point where they weren't
taking the load off the latch ... ?

I'll pop over again in a mo and try some more stuff. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I see Turnpike is still working. ;-)

In message , T i m
writes

When locking the door you first raise (and release) the handle
(either) that (just) engages the shoot bolts, but also clearing the
path for the cylinder tang to turn and (with two revolutions of the
key), double lock the deadbolt, and restrict the shoot bolts from
being released.

So, if you unlock the deadbolt and carry on turning the key past the
two turns till it stops, the next (maybe) 20 degrees would release the
latch. If you were / could to keep the key in that final position and
*then* use the handle to release the shoot bolts, I'm wondering if
that would keep the load off the latch or if it should, if the top and
bottom shoot bolt plates weren't worn to the point where they weren't
taking the load off the latch ... ?

I think the effort involved in moving the latch with the key is going to
be too much for Angela so I'll ask the installers to change it.

Don't want them on site at the moment as there was a conflict over
window sizing which led to the carpenters cladding being ripped off!

Builder wasn't going to do the job without payment and the glaziers were
adamant that the openings were measured accurately. To move on, I did
the job myself. All part of being clerk of works:-(

I'll pop over again in a mo and try some more stuff. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I see Turnpike is still working. ;-)

The old ones are best. Anyway I have 3 pages of d-i-y posts pinned for
future reference and don't want to consider transferring that lot to T
Bird.

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:20:22 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

When locking the door you first raise (and release) the handle
(either) that (just) engages the shoot bolts, but also clearing the
path for the cylinder tang to turn and (with two revolutions of the
key), double lock the deadbolt, and restrict the shoot bolts from
being released.

So, if you unlock the deadbolt and carry on turning the key past the
two turns till it stops, the next (maybe) 20 degrees would release the
latch. If you were / could to keep the key in that final position and
*then* use the handle to release the shoot bolts, I'm wondering if
that would keep the load off the latch or if it should, if the top and
bottom shoot bolt plates weren't worn to the point where they weren't
taking the load off the latch ... ?

I think the effort involved in moving the latch with the key is going to
be too much for Angela so I'll ask the installers to change it.

I'll be interested to hear what they do.

Don't want them on site at the moment as there was a conflict over
window sizing which led to the carpenters cladding being ripped off!

Great. ;-(

Builder wasn't going to do the job without payment and the glaziers were
adamant that the openings were measured accurately.

In an effort to avoid such issues when the DG Co were making new
frames for the whole house, including the bits that hadn't been built
at that point. I had the carpenters build substantial (4x2 and X
braced) window formers that the builders could build round and the DG
Co could measure. I still ended up with capping strips on the top of
some of the frames but it was easier to do that than cut the (uPVC)
frames down. ;-)

To move on, I did
the job myself. All part of being clerk of works:-(

If a jobs worth doing ... ?


p.s. I see Turnpike is still working. ;-)

The old ones are best.

Well, till they became totally unsupported ... ;-)

Anyway I have 3 pages of d-i-y posts pinned for
future reference and don't want to consider transferring that lot to T
Bird.

Then don't? Keep TP running for Usenet and use TB for mail then at
least you will be half way prepared for when TP finally dies. ;-)

The last I remember we couldn't actually get TB to connect to your ISP
mail host (but we were unsure if it was enabled or what their settings
needed to be)?

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes
Then don't? Keep TP running for Usenet and use TB for mail then at
least you will be half way prepared for when TP finally dies. ;-)

The last I remember we couldn't actually get TB to connect to your ISP
mail host (but we were unsure if it was enabled or what their settings
needed to be)?

I'm using TB for mail and Turnpike for news. OK until the anticipated
Demon switch off.

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb posted
In message , T i m
writes
Then don't? Keep TP running for Usenet and use TB for mail then at
least you will be half way prepared for when TP finally dies. ;-)

The last I remember we couldn't actually get TB to connect to your ISP
mail host (but we were unsure if it was enabled or what their settings
needed to be)?

I'm using TB for mail and Turnpike for news. OK until the anticipated
Demon switch off.


What can Demon switch off that will disable Turnpike? I still use it
with the Eternal September free NNTP service.

--
Jack

In message , Handsome Jack
writes
Tim Lamb posted
In message , T i m
writes
Then don't? Keep TP running for Usenet and use TB for mail then at
least you will be half way prepared for when TP finally dies. ;-)

The last I remember we couldn't actually get TB to connect to your ISP
mail host (but we were unsure if it was enabled or what their settings
needed to be)?

I'm using TB for mail and Turnpike for news. OK until the anticipated
Demon switch off.


What can Demon switch off that will disable Turnpike? I still use it
with the Eternal September free NNTP service.

Nothing other than age will disable Turnpike:-)

Demon (Vodafone) provide my Internet connection and there is a
persistent rumour that they intend to ditch non business customers next
May.


--
Tim Lamb

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:20:39 +0000, Handsome Jack
wrote:

Tim Lamb posted
In message , T i m
writes
Then don't? Keep TP running for Usenet and use TB for mail then at
least you will be half way prepared for when TP finally dies. ;-)

The last I remember we couldn't actually get TB to connect to your ISP
mail host (but we were unsure if it was enabled or what their settings
needed to be)?

I'm using TB for mail and Turnpike for news. OK until the anticipated
Demon switch off.


What can Demon switch off that will disable Turnpike? I still use it
with the Eternal September free NNTP service.

I think it was more the 'when it can't be made to work on the posters
preferred OS' than Demon as such. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In article , Handsome Jack
scribeth thus
Tim Lamb posted
In message , T i m
writes
Then don't? Keep TP running for Usenet and use TB for mail then at
least you will be half way prepared for when TP finally dies. ;-)

The last I remember we couldn't actually get TB to connect to your ISP
mail host (but we were unsure if it was enabled or what their settings
needed to be)?

I'm using TB for mail and Turnpike for news. OK until the anticipated
Demon switch off.


What can Demon switch off that will disable Turnpike? I still use it
with the Eternal September free NNTP service.


Its to do with have you a universal licence as if you have then you can
pull mail from any source if not then your limited to Demon ..IIRC,,
--
Tony Sayer