We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?


NT

Burn them

Jim K ;-)

On Friday, 7 October 2016 14:28:01 UTC+1, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?


NT

Timber has to be dried at a controlled rate to prevent cracking.
The end grain can be painted to help in this.

Timber shrinks as it drys.
Cracks appear because the outer has dried too much before the inner,

In article ,
writes:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. The=
y're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running =
partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than t=
he inner. How can I stop them cracking?

A wood turner up the road from me waxes the ends of freshly felled
timber he gets, so they can't dry out through the ends.

I suspect it's also important to dry slowly, at least initially,
i.e. outside but out of the rain, and not in a heated house.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 07/10/16 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner.

No, that is not the reason. The reason is that wood shrinks least along
the grain (up the trunk) then least radially (the diameter of the trunk,
and most tangentially or circumferentially.

Which is why wood warps cups and splits in the way it does as it dries.



How can I stop them cracking?


NT

There is in fact only one way, and that is to soak them in a particular
chemical - whose name escapes - me sold specifically for that purpose.

Ah. polyethylene glycol (PEG).

Otherwise section the logs and use the wood in parts, as described here.

http://www.customwooddesign.com/turninggreenwood-1.html



--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 07/10/16 16:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
writes:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. The=
y're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running =
partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than t=
he inner. How can I stop them cracking?

A wood turner up the road from me waxes the ends of freshly felled
timber he gets, so they can't dry out through the ends.

I suspect it's also important to dry slowly, at least initially,
i.e. outside but out of the rain, and not in a heated house.

I am afraid that wont work either. For sure even drying helps, but even
drying wont eliminate the fact that wood is by its nature anisotropic,
and shrinks differently in three dimensions. Up the bole, radially from
heartwood to bark, and tangentially around the bole.

If its going to dry at all, it WILL split if its thick.




--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process. (there
are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would probably be
enough)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 07/10/16 18:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process. (there
are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would probably be
enough)


IN the case of a lateral slice through the trunk, this will not work.

It only works with plank sawn wood, where there is a little more loss
from the ends than the middle



--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...



--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 06:27:58 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on.
They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges
running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying
faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

A bit late now but I think they should be in a moisture controlled
environment so they dry out at a controlled rate.

I assume that they have dried out too quickly or too much.

Cheers


Dave R



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On 07/10/16 20:14, David wrote:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2016 06:27:58 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on.
They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges
running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying
faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

A bit late now but I think they should be in a moisture controlled
environment so they dry out at a controlled rate.

I assume that they have dried out too quickly or too much.
too much. in that you cant dry wood *at all* without it splitting if cut
that way


Cheers


Dave R





--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

On 07/10/16 16:20, harry wrote:
On Friday, 7 October 2016 14:28:01 UTC+1, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?


NT

Timber has to be dried at a controlled rate to prevent cracking.
The end grain can be painted to help in this.

Timber shrinks as it drys.
Cracks appear because the outer has dried too much before the inner,

no they dont.


--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:
On 07/10/2016 14:27, tabbypurr wrote:

We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...

Thanks, I've been looking into PEG treatment.


NT

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

On Fri, 7 Oct 2016 06:27:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?


You have had a lot of replies but you need to know that wood has two
stages of drying, the first down to about 25% is the cell water
leaving, when this stage is finished you can blow or suck through the
disc. Little shrinkage takes place up to this point.

The second stage is when water weakly bound to the cell structure is
lost down to the equilibrium moisture content. This is when shrinkage
occurs and as has been pointed out there is little longitudinal
shrinkage but tangential shrinkage is more than radial shrinkage. The
ratio of tangential to radial shrinkage differs between species but
turkey oak is one of the worst.

So it is possible for the middle to remain full size whilst the
outside is shrinking, this is exacerbated where the heartwood cells
are filled with tyloses which hinder water movement.

Also woods that have radial weakness because of prominent parenchymous
tissue (rays) will tend to pull large single cracks.

Softwoods absorb the stress internally better, I have some coasters I
cut from douglas on one of my first thinning contracts that are still
whole with bark intact with no special treatment.

As humidity changes boards cut through and through will cup the
further from the centre they come from, those on the radius will just
shrink a bit more at the outside invisibly.

I'm a bit surprise that pear should crack badly as it is both diffuse
porous and with homogeneously distributed small parenchymous tissue.

So you may be suffering more from differential drying than the
effects of differential tangential to radial shrinkage.

The thing about seasoning is that moisture needs to leave the surface
at the same rate as the slowest parts to dry can migrate moisture to
the neighbouring part.

If the discs are cut in mid winter they dry slowly initially whereas
in the summer the surface dries too fast.

AJH

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

In message , Nick Odell
writes
Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Any trunk slab cut with a band saw will have a few *radially* cut
boards. Undoubtedly the saw mill yard manager knows this and may be
financially persuaded to part with some:-)

My cousin has made a few violins. The selection of materials and their
subsequent treatment appears close to a religion:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:47:08 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

That's the sort of thing I'd be willing to do. The equivalent doubling
up of the cost per length is still a much cheaper option than buying
purpose-cut. Most wide boards I've looked at seem still to be
heartwood (from bigger trees) and if they don't go right through the
centre you are more likely - using your illustration - to get two 2x2s
to use and throw away the middle 2x4.

I wondered whether certain grades of scaffold plank would be any good
but I'd been unable to find out much visually because of the metal
strip at each end.

Nick

On Saturday, 8 October 2016 21:40:18 UTC+1, wrote:
On Fri, 7 Oct 2016 06:27:58 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?


You have had a lot of replies but you need to know that wood has two
stages of drying, the first down to about 25% is the cell water
leaving, when this stage is finished you can blow or suck through the
disc. Little shrinkage takes place up to this point.

The second stage is when water weakly bound to the cell structure is
lost down to the equilibrium moisture content. This is when shrinkage
occurs and as has been pointed out there is little longitudinal
shrinkage but tangential shrinkage is more than radial shrinkage. The
ratio of tangential to radial shrinkage differs between species but
turkey oak is one of the worst.

So it is possible for the middle to remain full size whilst the
outside is shrinking, this is exacerbated where the heartwood cells
are filled with tyloses which hinder water movement.

Also woods that have radial weakness because of prominent parenchymous
tissue (rays) will tend to pull large single cracks.

Softwoods absorb the stress internally better, I have some coasters I
cut from douglas on one of my first thinning contracts that are still
whole with bark intact with no special treatment.

As humidity changes boards cut through and through will cup the
further from the centre they come from, those on the radius will just
shrink a bit more at the outside invisibly.

I'm a bit surprise that pear should crack badly as it is both diffuse
porous and with homogeneously distributed small parenchymous tissue.

So you may be suffering more from differential drying than the
effects of differential tangential to radial shrinkage.

The thing about seasoning is that moisture needs to leave the surface
at the same rate as the slowest parts to dry can migrate moisture to
the neighbouring part.

If the discs are cut in mid winter they dry slowly initially whereas
in the summer the surface dries too fast.

AJH

Useful stuff to know. Were moving it all to slow drying down, hopefully the rest will be ok. It was cut 3 weeks ago. Cheers.


NT

On 09/10/16 12:12, wrote:
Were moving it all to slow drying down, hopefully the rest will be ok. It was cut 3 weeks ago. Cheers.

No the rest will simply take longer to crack



--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On Sunday, 9 October 2016 12:38:13 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/10/16 12:12, tabbypurr wrote:

Were moving it all to slow drying down, hopefully the rest will be ok. It was cut 3 weeks ago. Cheers.

No the rest will simply take longer to crack

We're going to PEG some too.


NT

On 09/10/2016 09:01, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:47:08 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

That's the sort of thing I'd be willing to do. The equivalent doubling
up of the cost per length is still a much cheaper option than buying
purpose-cut. Most wide boards I've looked at seem still to be
heartwood (from bigger trees) and if they don't go right through the
centre you are more likely - using your illustration - to get two 2x2s
to use and throw away the middle 2x4.

I wondered whether certain grades of scaffold plank would be any good
but I'd been unable to find out much visually because of the metal
strip at each end.

Nick


Scaffold planks are normally whitewood. Technically more stable than the
usual redwood, but impossible to get a decent finish on. Blunts cutters
and gums up abrasive cloth.
I was once sent a sample of fast grown 8"x 1" redwood from the Scottish
borders somewhere that was as dry as a bone and flat as a pancake.
Failing that, try and find some Finnish stuff or a discarded Ikea
headboard where the wider 1" sections are actually superb quality. I
hauled one out of the council wood bin at the tip this morning :-)

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 09/10/16 13:10, Stuart Noble wrote:
On 09/10/2016 09:01, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:47:08 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark
still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from
outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer
wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different
directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and
bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and
twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

That's the sort of thing I'd be willing to do. The equivalent doubling
up of the cost per length is still a much cheaper option than buying
purpose-cut. Most wide boards I've looked at seem still to be
heartwood (from bigger trees) and if they don't go right through the
centre you are more likely - using your illustration - to get two 2x2s
to use and throw away the middle 2x4.

I wondered whether certain grades of scaffold plank would be any good
but I'd been unable to find out much visually because of the metal
strip at each end.

Nick


Scaffold planks are normally whitewood. Technically more stable than the
usual redwood, but impossible to get a decent finish on. Blunts cutters
and gums up abrasive cloth.
I was once sent a sample of fast grown 8"x 1" redwood from the Scottish
borders somewhere that was as dry as a bone and flat as a pancake.
Failing that, try and find some Finnish stuff or a discarded Ikea
headboard where the wider 1" sections are actually superb quality. I
hauled one out of the council wood bin at the tip this morning :-)

Or contact specialist timber suppliers.

The sort that actually saw up logs and season them.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 13:32:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 09/10/16 13:10, Stuart Noble wrote:
On 09/10/2016 09:01, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:47:08 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark
still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from
outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer
wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different
directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and
bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and
twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

That's the sort of thing I'd be willing to do. The equivalent doubling
up of the cost per length is still a much cheaper option than buying
purpose-cut. Most wide boards I've looked at seem still to be
heartwood (from bigger trees) and if they don't go right through the
centre you are more likely - using your illustration - to get two 2x2s
to use and throw away the middle 2x4.

I wondered whether certain grades of scaffold plank would be any good
but I'd been unable to find out much visually because of the metal
strip at each end.

Nick


Scaffold planks are normally whitewood. Technically more stable than the
usual redwood, but impossible to get a decent finish on. Blunts cutters
and gums up abrasive cloth.
I was once sent a sample of fast grown 8"x 1" redwood from the Scottish
borders somewhere that was as dry as a bone and flat as a pancake.
Failing that, try and find some Finnish stuff or a discarded Ikea
headboard where the wider 1" sections are actually superb quality. I
hauled one out of the council wood bin at the tip this morning :-)

Or contact specialist timber suppliers.

The sort that actually saw up logs and season them.

Yes, but this is sort-of the point. I can go to a specialist timber
supplier who will saw up logs, season them and charge me mightily for
doing so. Or I can find everyday stuff being sold at an everyday price
and pick out the planks that are special to me and store and season
them myself. I've still got enough mahogany(see above) and rosewood
(odd offcut billets that I resawed) and even a board of ebony that
just turned up in bargain bin in a timber yard but I've running short
of softwood.

Nick

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 13:10:17 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 09:01, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:47:08 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

That's the sort of thing I'd be willing to do. The equivalent doubling
up of the cost per length is still a much cheaper option than buying
purpose-cut. Most wide boards I've looked at seem still to be
heartwood (from bigger trees) and if they don't go right through the
centre you are more likely - using your illustration - to get two 2x2s
to use and throw away the middle 2x4.

I wondered whether certain grades of scaffold plank would be any good
but I'd been unable to find out much visually because of the metal
strip at each end.

Nick


Scaffold planks are normally whitewood. Technically more stable than the
usual redwood, but impossible to get a decent finish on. Blunts cutters
and gums up abrasive cloth.
I was once sent a sample of fast grown 8"x 1" redwood from the Scottish
borders somewhere that was as dry as a bone and flat as a pancake.
Failing that, try and find some Finnish stuff or a discarded Ikea
headboard where the wider 1" sections are actually superb quality. I
hauled one out of the council wood bin at the tip this morning :-)

It's almost worth buying a new Ikea headboard if the wood's really
good. But recycled timber is excellent for small scale work like mine.
I made a number of instruments out of solid mahogany counters from the
local bank when they chucked the stuff out after a refit. It was
actually my bank branch and they offered it to me - I didn't have to
pinch it!

Nick

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 04:59:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, 9 October 2016 12:38:13 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/10/16 12:12, tabbypurr wrote:

Were moving it all to slow drying down, hopefully the rest will be ok. It was cut 3 weeks ago. Cheers.

No the rest will simply take longer to crack

We're going to PEG some too.

There are different weights of PEG, I suppose to do with the extent of
the polymerisation.

Anyway the wood remains full of the peg solution so is heavy.

AJH

On Sunday, 9 October 2016 18:34:18 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 04:59:07 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 October 2016 12:38:13 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/10/16 12:12, tabbypurr wrote:

Were moving it all to slow drying down, hopefully the rest will be ok. It was cut 3 weeks ago. Cheers.

No the rest will simply take longer to crack

We're going to PEG some too.

There are different weights of PEG, I suppose to do with the extent of
the polymerisation.

Yes, chain length. We're getting PEG 1000.


NT

Anyway the wood remains full of the peg solution so is heavy.

On 09/10/2016 15:41, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 13:10:17 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 09:01, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:47:08 +0100, Stuart Noble
wrote:

On 09/10/2016 00:12, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Friday, 7 October 2016 19:16:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/10/16 18:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 07/10/2016 14:27, wrote:
We have a pile of pearwood discs around 10-12" diameter, bark still
on. They're starting to dry and cracking badly, cracking from outer
edges running partway toward the centre. I take it the outer wood is
drying faster than the inner. How can I stop them cracking?

paint both sides in something that will slow the drying process.
(there are propitiatory products for this, but vinyl emulsion would
probably be enough)

ISTM that prayer would do if all you are after is propitiating the
gods. Much cheaper.

Well I can assure you that nothing works except soaking in PEG.

When wood cells dry, they shrink at different rates in different directions.

It took many many years before people worked out how to create wood
planks that did not split, and even then they still cupped and bowed and
warped...


In days of yore timber was sawn radially.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/radial_t.htm


Next best thing is quartering.
http://www.quartersawnoak.co.uk/

Most timber is just sliced these days. Hence the splitting and twisting.
But speedy.

Talking of quarter-sawn timber...

Being the cheapskate I am, I've generally been able to buy my musical
instrument making wood from fairly common sources and then stored it
until it's air-dried to the standard of ready-to-use tonewoods. For
instance, the last lot of mahogany I bought: I selected the sliced
planks that were accidentally on the quarter and took them out of a
pile of other planks.

I'm having trouble finding quartered softwood in common situations: I
suppose nowadays the sapwood is stripped off for manufacturing boards
as most of the planks I see are the more pest and rot resistant
heartwood.

I found a couple of random "Railway sleepers" from B&Q were cut on the
quarter but they had been pressure treated and I don't really want
that. Does anybody have any suggestions for finding softwood boards
that will be priced at normal prices but might include occasional
accidentally quarter-sawn timber that I might select out?

Perhaps I ought to add that I only use the odd plank or two at a time:
I don't need a lorry-load!

Nick


The simplest way might be to buy a wide section of decent softwood e.g.
2"x 8" and slice it down the middle. A waste of an expensive cut, but it
would give you the equivalent of a quarter sawn 2"x 4"

That's the sort of thing I'd be willing to do. The equivalent doubling
up of the cost per length is still a much cheaper option than buying
purpose-cut. Most wide boards I've looked at seem still to be
heartwood (from bigger trees) and if they don't go right through the
centre you are more likely - using your illustration - to get two 2x2s
to use and throw away the middle 2x4.

I wondered whether certain grades of scaffold plank would be any good
but I'd been unable to find out much visually because of the metal
strip at each end.

Nick


Scaffold planks are normally whitewood. Technically more stable than the
usual redwood, but impossible to get a decent finish on. Blunts cutters
and gums up abrasive cloth.
I was once sent a sample of fast grown 8"x 1" redwood from the Scottish
borders somewhere that was as dry as a bone and flat as a pancake.
Failing that, try and find some Finnish stuff or a discarded Ikea
headboard where the wider 1" sections are actually superb quality. I
hauled one out of the council wood bin at the tip this morning :-)

It's almost worth buying a new Ikea headboard if the wood's really
good. But recycled timber is excellent for small scale work like mine.
I made a number of instruments out of solid mahogany counters from the
local bank when they chucked the stuff out after a refit. It was
actually my bank branch and they offered it to me - I didn't have to
pinch it!

Nick

I imagine, being Swedish, Ikea have their own sawmill where every stage
of the timber preparation can be planned to end up with furniture
quality redwood. No use to the typical UK timber merchants where outdoor
durability is more of an issue (windows etc) but essential for furniture
going into a centrally heated home.
Secondary kilning, as practised by some of the bigger UK merchants
doesn't work well for softwood, so there's no option but to buy directly
from Sweden/Finland if you want sub 10% moisture content. The panels in
solid pine kitchen doors are remarkably thin and flat and dry.....even
from MFI etc

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 09/10/2016 15:35, Nick Odell wrote:

Yes, but this is sort-of the point. I can go to a specialist timber
supplier who will saw up logs, season them and charge me mightily for
doing so. Or I can find everyday stuff being sold at an everyday price
and pick out the planks that are special to me and store and season
them myself.

I would expect your best bet would simply be to trawl through a few DIY
sheds or builder's merchants, and sort through what they have until you
find a good one.

I've still got enough mahogany(see above) and rosewood
(odd offcut billets that I resawed) and even a board of ebony that
just turned up in bargain bin in a timber yard but I've running short
of softwood.

OOI, what do you use the softwood for?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/16 11:38, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/10/2016 15:35, Nick Odell wrote:

Yes, but this is sort-of the point. I can go to a specialist timber
supplier who will saw up logs, season them and charge me mightily for
doing so. Or I can find everyday stuff being sold at an everyday price
and pick out the planks that are special to me and store and season
them myself.

I would expect your best bet would simply be to trawl through a few DIY
sheds or builder's merchants, and sort through what they have until you
find a good one.

I've still got enough mahogany(see above) and rosewood
(odd offcut billets that I resawed) and even a board of ebony that
just turned up in bargain bin in a timber yard but I've running short
of softwood.

OOI, what do you use the softwood for?


Sounds like musical instruments to me.

Rosewood and ebony for fingerboards. Mahogany for necks although I
prefer maple.

Bodies are often fruit wood, but sometimes softwoods (evergreens
pine/spruce/larch/fir etc etc).

The problem is no one grows softwoods for 'woodwork' - it's all
structural lumber and as such the quality is poor and the cost is low.


Sometimes parana pine has been used for finer work, Douglas fir and
cedar a little, but that's it.

Softwood is too unstable generally to be useful beyond structural work,
where a mm of movement goes unnoticed.


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp