Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/09/2016 20:49, John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Spawn of Satan.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman

On 24/09/2016 20:49, John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

Most systems I have come across don't have any means to drain the header
tank to help replacing the gate valve. Was it a case of syphoning water
out of the header tank or an otherwise easy job?

On 24/09/2016 23:45, Fredxxx wrote:
On 24/09/2016 20:49, John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

Most systems I have come across don't have any means to drain the header
tank to help replacing the gate valve. Was it a case of syphoning water
out of the header tank or an otherwise easy job?

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501

You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2016 04:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/09/2016 23:45, Fredxxx wrote:
On 24/09/2016 20:49, John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

Most systems I have come across don't have any means to drain the header
tank to help replacing the gate valve. Was it a case of syphoning water
out of the header tank or an otherwise easy job?

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501


You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.

I should add, TS do a pair of bungs at half the price, and in an
emergency, a couple or carrots[1] will do the trick!

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand...nge+Kit/p31768

[1] Other root vegetables might also work.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, 24 September 2016 20:49:52 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


--
Cheers,

Gate valves have been made for years, there's nothing wrong with them.
People will buy cheap ****ty/unsuitable ones.
And while the crooks buy them, other crooks make and sell them.

I hate these. However one I had on a washing machine did theis but was kind
of not off or on completely, and it transpired that the actual spindle had
snapped inside leaving the valve half and half. Rubbish manufacture.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the time
it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

That typo opens up all sorts of possibilities! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 25/09/2016 10:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

True, although in this case the owner is anal enough to remember to give
all such valves a twiddle at least once a year to make sure they have
not seized (although he likely did not crank it shut enough to actually
stop the flow)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2016 09:34, Brian Gaff wrote:
I hate these. However one I had on a washing machine did theis but was kind
of not off or on completely, and it transpired that the actual spindle had
snapped inside leaving the valve half and half. Rubbish manufacture.

Yup, same happened on this one, only once it was closed.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2016 07:18, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 24 September 2016 20:49:52 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


--
Cheers,

Gate valves have been made for years,

there's nothing wrong with them.

Large industrial ones, perhaps. I have seen *far* too many domestic ones
fail to believe that is true for them.

People will buy cheap ****ty/unsuitable ones.
And while the crooks buy them, other crooks make and sell them.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 04:09:07 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

I should add, TS do a pair of bungs at half the price, and in an
emergency, a couple or carrots[1] will do the trick!


Do you know the bread-dough trick?

John Rumm formulated on Sunday :
[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501

You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are hollow,
with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of a pipe as
well.

I don't understand what the tear drop shaped item does, on the right -
could you explain please?

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 12:54:44 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

John Rumm formulated on Sunday :
[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...ge-Kit-Regr05/
p/581501

You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.

I don't understand what the tear drop shaped item does, on the right -
could you explain please?

They are both the same, but one is standing on end.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote on 25/09/2016 :
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 12:54:44 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

John Rumm formulated on Sunday :
[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...ge-Kit-Regr05/
p/581501

You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.

I don't understand what the tear drop shaped item does, on the right -
could you explain please?

They are both the same, but one is standing on end.

Thanks!

On 25/09/2016 12:32, Jimbo's lappy wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 04:09:07 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

I should add, TS do a pair of bungs at half the price, and in an
emergency, a couple or carrots[1] will do the trick!


Do you know the bread-dough trick?

I tend to include that in the catalogue of "how to solder a dripping
pipe" collection - i.e. it will stem a small low volume trickle long
enough to solder, but then flush through the pipe when water pressure is
re-applied. Not sure how well it would work trying to stuff it into a
pipe outlet under water in a cistern?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2016 15:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bob Eager wrote on 25/09/2016 :
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 12:54:44 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

John Rumm formulated on Sunday :
[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...ge-Kit-Regr05/
p/581501

You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.

I don't understand what the tear drop shaped item does, on the right -
could you explain please?

They are both the same, but one is standing on end.

Yup four items in the kit - two bungs, a jubilee clip and a rad key.
Don't think I have ever needed the jubilee clip!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sunday, 25 September 2016 11:58:31 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2016 10:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

True, although in this case the owner is anal enough to remember to give
all such valves a twiddle at least once a year to make sure they have
not seized (although he likely did not crank it shut enough to actually
stop the flow)



In the navy in times past, every valve in the engine room was run from open to closed every day.

harry wrote:
On Sunday, 25 September 2016 11:58:31 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2016 10:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had
turned off his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the
cylinder so that he could change a tap washer in the kitchen.
Turned it back on again when done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him
(i.e. chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does,
half the time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a
full bore leaver valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

True, although in this case the owner is anal enough to remember to
give all such valves a twiddle at least once a year to make sure
they have not seized (although he likely did not crank it shut
enough to actually stop the flow)



In the navy in times past, every valve in the engine room was run
from open to closed every day.

Whilst the ship was underway?

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 25 September 2016 11:58:31 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2016 10:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned
off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that
he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him
(i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore
leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

True, although in this case the owner is anal enough to remember to give
all such valves a twiddle at least once a year to make sure they have
not seized (although he likely did not crank it shut enough to actually
stop the flow)



In the navy in times past, every valve in the engine room was run from
open to closed every day.

Dont believe that was even possible.

On Sunday, 25 September 2016 18:24:14 UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
harry wrote:
On Sunday, 25 September 2016 11:58:31 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2016 10:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had
turned off his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the
cylinder so that he could change a tap washer in the kitchen.
Turned it back on again when done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him
(i.e. chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does,
half the time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a
full bore leaver valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

True, although in this case the owner is anal enough to remember to
give all such valves a twiddle at least once a year to make sure
they have not seized (although he likely did not crank it shut
enough to actually stop the flow)



In the navy in times past, every valve in the engine room was run
from open to closed every day.

Whilst the ship was underway?

Yes. There is duplication of critical equipment in warships.
Or was back then.

It kept valves freed up/free of corrosion and ensured they were working correctly.
Also any other (impending) defects could be spotted.
It was done in a prescribed sequence.

On 25/09/2016 04:02, John Rumm wrote:

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501


You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.


How does that work for changing radiator valves, which is what it is
advertised as being for?

John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

On 26-Sep-16 10:10 AM, Andrew May wrote:
On 25/09/2016 04:02, John Rumm wrote:

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501



You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.


How does that work for changing radiator valves, which is what it is
advertised as being for?


I was wondering that. Surely, most systems are pressurised these days?

On 26/09/2016 10:10, Andrew May wrote:
On 25/09/2016 04:02, John Rumm wrote:

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501



You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.


How does that work for changing radiator valves, which is what it is
advertised as being for?

Same way really - poke one in the outlet of the CH header, and the other
into the CH primary vent.

You then turn off the both rad valves, and crack the nut on the valve
union to the rad to allow the rad to be drained. Then you undo the valve
connection to the pipe. Since you have no route for air or water to get
into the system you have a hydraulic "lock" which will prevent much if
any water coming out of the now open rad tail.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/09/2016 12:01, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

They are typically fine until you go to use them. So I guess if they
fail then, the opportunity has presented itself ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 08:17:23 +0100, harry wrote:

On Sunday, 25 September 2016 18:24:14 UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
harry wrote:
On Sunday, 25 September 2016 11:58:31 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2016 10:28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had
turned off his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the
cylinder so that he could change a tap washer in the kitchen.
Turned it back on again when done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him
(i.e. chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does,
half the time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a
full bore leaver valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!

TBH, there are no valves at any reasonable price point which work
reliably when operated only once every 25 years.

True, although in this case the owner is anal enough to remember to
give all such valves a twiddle at least once a year to make sure
they have not seized (although he likely did not crank it shut
enough to actually stop the flow)



In the navy in times past, every valve in the engine room was run
from open to closed every day.

Whilst the ship was underway?

Yes. There is duplication of critical equipment in warships.
Or was back then.

It kept valves freed up/free of corrosion and ensured they were working correctly.
Also any other (impending) defects could be spotted.
It was done in a prescribed sequence.

Mr Pounder should already know this. He claims to have worked on big ships.

--
A single blonde pregnant girl goes to the grocery store. A couple that she knows notices she's pregnant.
The lady asks her, "Whose baby is it?"
The blonde says, "Well, I don't know they are going to do blood tests, but I think it's mine."

On 26-Sep-16 6:44 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/09/2016 10:10, Andrew May wrote:
On 25/09/2016 04:02, John Rumm wrote:

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501




You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.


How does that work for changing radiator valves, which is what it is
advertised as being for?

Same way really - poke one in the outlet of the CH header, and the other
into the CH primary vent.

You then turn off the both rad valves, and crack the nut on the valve
union to the rad to allow the rad to be drained. Then you undo the valve
connection to the pipe. Since you have no route for air or water to get
into the system you have a hydraulic "lock" which will prevent much if
any water coming out of the now open rad tail.



On a pressurised system, it can't be enough just to depressurise it, can it?

On 26/09/2016 20:22, GB wrote:
On 26-Sep-16 6:44 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/09/2016 10:10, Andrew May wrote:
On 25/09/2016 04:02, John Rumm wrote:

I did not bother draining - I have a couple of conical rubber bungs[1]

We poked one into the outlet of the cold cistern, and the other into
the
vent pipe from the cylinder over the cistern. That meant we only lost a
few feet of pipe's worth of water.

[1] Like:

https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/Regin...egr05/p/581501





You can either poke the end in a pipe, or the inside of the bungs are
hollow, with a flange at the top, so they can be forced over the end of
a pipe as well.


How does that work for changing radiator valves, which is what it is
advertised as being for?

Same way really - poke one in the outlet of the CH header, and the other
into the CH primary vent.

You then turn off the both rad valves, and crack the nut on the valve
union to the rad to allow the rad to be drained. Then you undo the valve
connection to the pipe. Since you have no route for air or water to get
into the system you have a hydraulic "lock" which will prevent much if
any water coming out of the now open rad tail.



On a pressurised system, it can't be enough just to depressurise it, can
it?

So long as the rads are all well bled, then yes - once de-pressurised
its no different to a vented system with the vent and F&E pipe closed off.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 26 September 2016 12:01:50 UTC+1, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

The reason they typically fail is dezincification of brass components.
In many situations bronze/gunmetal valves should be used which do not dezincify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...aching_of_zinc

Cowboy plumbers fit the brass ones for cheapness or ignorance.
Plenty of ignorance in this group including the OP.

John Rumm wrote:
On 26/09/2016 12:01, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

They are typically fine until you go to use them. So I guess if they
fail then, the opportunity has presented itself ;-)


Well, for some reason, I seem to have to drain the CH more than one
might think is strictly necessary. Probably because I end up replacing
old leaky radiator valves whenever I decorate - and I've decided to
always chase the radiator pipes into the wall from now on, which usually
means they need to be lengthened a bit. I'm just thinking - next time
it's drained, maybe I should replace the valves?

harry wrote:
On Monday, 26 September 2016 12:01:50 UTC+1, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

The reason they typically fail is dezincification of brass components.
In many situations bronze/gunmetal valves should be used which do not dezincify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...aching_of_zinc

Cowboy plumbers fit the brass ones for cheapness or ignorance.
Plenty of ignorance in this group including the OP.


Thanks. The valves in our HW/CH are probably something like 30 years
old. Do you suppose they will have the marks on them that the article
mentions?

What is the 'valve gate party trick' to which the OP refers? I might
need to make use of it one day.

On 27/09/2016 10:12, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
On Monday, 26 September 2016 12:01:50 UTC+1, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned
off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore
leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

The reason they typically fail is dezincification of brass components.
In many situations bronze/gunmetal valves should be used which do not
dezincify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...aching_of_zinc

Cowboy plumbers fit the brass ones for cheapness or ignorance.
Plenty of ignorance in this group including the OP.


Thanks. The valves in our HW/CH are probably something like 30 years
old. Do you suppose they will have the marks on them that the article
mentions?

What is the 'valve gate party trick' to which the OP refers? I might
need to make use of it one day.

I did expand that in the op... its not a trick one plays on gate valves,
but a trick they play on you!

i.e. When you attempt to turn them off, they will frequently fail to
seal completely (due to the presence of debris / sludge / hard water) in
the gate recess - so you often end up with a trickle of water still
letting by the valve. Then when you attempt to open the valve again, the
spindle may snap internally before it withdraws the gate from its
recess, leaving the gate closed, and the hand wheel turning endlessly,
but not actually doing anything.

You will have to excuse harry, he has delusions of competence
(presumably influenced by using lots of nice large shiny commercial gate
vales in industry, and naff all experience of the crappy things sold for
domestic plumbing).

Using DZR fittings in situations where they are not required is unlikely
to solve this particular problem which is a result of a basic design
problem, and the valve type being unsuited to applications where they
are infrequently used. (Also on older installations DZR fittings were
unlikely to have even been available at the time of installation)

(The requirement for DZR is dictated by local water conditions and also
in some cases installation conditions. The local water authority can
normally advise if the water will tend to attack normal brass fittings.
Its a problem that usually only arises in soft water areas. Local
conditions may include fittings that will be in contact with soil (e.g.
if a pipe were unprotected and buried).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 27/09/2016 10:12, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
On Monday, 26 September 2016 12:01:50 UTC+1, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned
off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so
that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him
(i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore
leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

The reason they typically fail is dezincification of brass components.
In many situations bronze/gunmetal valves should be used which do not
dezincify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...aching_of_zinc

Cowboy plumbers fit the brass ones for cheapness or ignorance.
Plenty of ignorance in this group including the OP.


Thanks. The valves in our HW/CH are probably something like 30 years
old. Do you suppose they will have the marks on them that the article
mentions?

What is the 'valve gate party trick' to which the OP refers? I might
need to make use of it one day.

I did expand that in the op... its not a trick one plays on gate valves,
but a trick they play on you!

Oh, right. I thought you were referring to a trick you could use to get
one last operation out of them, after which you'd need to replace them ASAP.

i.e. When you attempt to turn them off, they will frequently fail to
seal completely (due to the presence of debris / sludge / hard water) in
the gate recess - so you often end up with a trickle of water still
letting by the valve. Then when you attempt to open the valve again, the
spindle may snap internally before it withdraws the gate from its
recess, leaving the gate closed, and the hand wheel turning endlessly,
but not actually doing anything.

You will have to excuse harry, he has delusions of competence
(presumably influenced by using lots of nice large shiny commercial gate
vales in industry, and naff all experience of the crappy things sold for
domestic plumbing).

Using DZR fittings in situations where they are not required is unlikely
to solve this particular problem which is a result of a basic design
problem, and the valve type being unsuited to applications where they
are infrequently used. (Also on older installations DZR fittings were
unlikely to have even been available at the time of installation)

(The requirement for DZR is dictated by local water conditions and also
in some cases installation conditions. The local water authority can
normally advise if the water will tend to attack normal brass fittings.
Its a problem that usually only arises in soft water areas. Local
conditions may include fittings that will be in contact with soil (e.g.
if a pipe were unprotected and buried).


We do have soft water. So less prone to some problems, but more prone
to others.

On 27/09/2016 12:37, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 27/09/2016 10:12, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

What is the 'valve gate party trick' to which the OP refers? I might
need to make use of it one day.

I did expand that in the op... its not a trick one plays on gate valves,
but a trick they play on you!

Oh, right. I thought you were referring to a trick you could use to get
one last operation out of them, after which you'd need to replace them
ASAP.

Would be nice, but alas no. Once they have snapped, there is nothing
sensible you can do to fix them in place.

(The requirement for DZR is dictated by local water conditions and also
in some cases installation conditions. The local water authority can
normally advise if the water will tend to attack normal brass fittings.
Its a problem that usually only arises in soft water areas. Local
conditions may include fittings that will be in contact with soil (e.g.
if a pipe were unprotected and buried).


We do have soft water. So less prone to some problems, but more prone
to others.

Yup soft water tends can be more corrosive in general, but obviously
free from scale - which can be a mixed blessing. On the negative side,
hard water will deposit scale, and require more detergent etc, although
on the plus side it tastes batter, and sometimes the scale is handy
(e.g. sealing pinhole leaks, or coating the inside of lead pipes so they
are less able to contaminate the water).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, 27 September 2016 12:11:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/09/2016 10:12, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
harry wrote:
On Monday, 26 September 2016 12:01:50 UTC+1, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Had a call from a friend earlier with his tale of woe. He had turned
off
his hot water using the tap feeding the base of the cylinder so that he
could change a tap washer in the kitchen. Turned it back on again when
done, and no hot water anywhere...

So I asked if the tap he turned off had a wheel style head on it -
probably painted red. Sure enough it did.

So I popped round and explained the gate valve party trick to him (i.e.
chances are it won't turn off properly, and even if it does, half the
time it won't turn on ever again), and swapped it for a full bore
leaver
valve.

It amazes me they still sell the things!


Does that mean they should be replaced with something else if the
opportunity arises? We have a few in the HW/CH system. They've not
caused any problems yet, but I haven't needed to turn them yet.

The reason they typically fail is dezincification of brass components.
In many situations bronze/gunmetal valves should be used which do not
dezincify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...aching_of_zinc

Cowboy plumbers fit the brass ones for cheapness or ignorance.
Plenty of ignorance in this group including the OP.


Thanks. The valves in our HW/CH are probably something like 30 years
old. Do you suppose they will have the marks on them that the article
mentions?

What is the 'valve gate party trick' to which the OP refers? I might
need to make use of it one day.

I did expand that in the op... its not a trick one plays on gate valves,
but a trick they play on you!

i.e. When you attempt to turn them off, they will frequently fail to
seal completely (due to the presence of debris / sludge / hard water) in
the gate recess - so you often end up with a trickle of water still
letting by the valve. Then when you attempt to open the valve again, the
spindle may snap internally before it withdraws the gate from its
recess, leaving the gate closed, and the hand wheel turning endlessly,
but not actually doing anything.

You will have to excuse harry, he has delusions of competence
(presumably influenced by using lots of nice large shiny commercial gate
vales in industry, and naff all experience of the crappy things sold for
domestic plumbing).

Drivel.
Using incorrect valves in any situation is down to ignorance, idleness and/or greed. You seem to be one of them.

The crooks installing these cheap brass valves are ripping people off and get away with it because it takes a few years for the damage to be done/become apparent.





Using DZR fittings in situations where they are not required is unlikely
to solve this particular problem which is a result of a basic design
problem, and the valve type being unsuited to applications where they
are infrequently used. (Also on older installations DZR fittings were
unlikely to have even been available at the time of installation)

DZR valves have been available for fifty years to my knowledge.
The problem is with the cowboy plumbers we have these days with an NVQ or some such drivel.

(The requirement for DZR is dictated by local water conditions and also
in some cases installation conditions. The local water authority can
normally advise if the water will tend to attack normal brass fittings.
Its a problem that usually only arises in soft water areas. Local
conditions may include fittings that will be in contact with soil (e.g.
if a pipe were unprotected and buried).

On 27/09/2016 19:02, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 27 September 2016 12:11:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/09/2016 10:12, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

What is the 'valve gate party trick' to which the OP refers? I might
need to make use of it one day.

I did expand that in the op... its not a trick one plays on gate valves,
but a trick they play on you!

i.e. When you attempt to turn them off, they will frequently fail to
seal completely (due to the presence of debris / sludge / hard water) in
the gate recess - so you often end up with a trickle of water still
letting by the valve. Then when you attempt to open the valve again, the
spindle may snap internally before it withdraws the gate from its
recess, leaving the gate closed, and the hand wheel turning endlessly,
but not actually doing anything.

You will have to excuse harry, he has delusions of competence
(presumably influenced by using lots of nice large shiny commercial gate
vales in industry, and naff all experience of the crappy things sold for
domestic plumbing).

Drivel.

ok then, just delusions?

Using incorrect valves in any situation is down to ignorance, idleness and/or greed.

Well at least you seem to now accept that gate valves are "incorrect
valves" - so that is progress.

You seem to be one of them.

That does not even make semantic sense.

The crooks installing these cheap brass valves are ripping people off and get away with it because it takes a few years for the damage to be done/become apparent.

Well the one I replaced the other day was not installed recently, and
likely 40+ years old. Typical failure mode though. So I guess the
"crook" that installed it is not too fussed (if even still alive).

DZR gate valves fail in exactly the same way, and for the same reasons
as "normal" ones.

If zinc leaching is a problem, you would expect to see it in all the
brass fittings, not just gate valves. Dezincification is a non issue
with our water anyway.

Using DZR fittings in situations where they are not required is unlikely
to solve this particular problem which is a result of a basic design
problem, and the valve type being unsuited to applications where they
are infrequently used. (Also on older installations DZR fittings were
unlikely to have even been available at the time of installation)

DZR valves have been available for fifty years to my knowledge.

Perhaps, however A crap DZR valve is no better than a crap normal brass
valve in cases.

The problem is with the cowboy plumbers we have these days with an NVQ or some such drivel.

Mind your spurs on the carpet...

(The requirement for DZR is dictated by local water conditions and also
in some cases installation conditions. The local water authority can
normally advise if the water will tend to attack normal brass fittings.
Its a problem that usually only arises in soft water areas. Local
conditions may include fittings that will be in contact with soil (e.g.
if a pipe were unprotected and buried).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2016 04:09, John Rumm wrote:


[1] Other root vegetables might also work.



Organic carrots are fine. That's what I used.

Organic ones are much harder than ones dosed
with nitrogen, so don't break off and
leave an awkward bit stuck at the bottom
of the cold tank,

On 26/09/2016 08:17, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 25 September 2016 18:24:14 UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

Whilst the ship was underway?

Yes. There is duplication of critical equipment in warships.
Or was back then.

It kept valves freed up/free of corrosion and ensured they were working correctly.
Also any other (impending) defects could be spotted.
It was done in a prescribed sequence.


Well that didn't happen on the Ice Patrol Ship Endurance. It very nearly
sank south of the Falklands in 2008.

From Wiki :-

The Royal Navy inquiry found that the flood happened while a sea-water
strainer was being cleaned, in an attempt to improve the production of
fresh water. The air lines controlling a hull valve were incorrectly
reconnected, resulting in the valve opening and an inability to close
it. (i.e arse about face).
/end

No-one on board had overall charge (or knowledge) of all the systems
and documentation provided with the Norwegian built (and previously
leased) ship was either inadequate, non-existant or just plain
incorrect (or in Norwegian).

The Entire fleet of Class 45 warships have such inadequate duplication
that they cannot operate in hot humid conditions. So not much use
in the Gulf or Caribbean then.