I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

On 16/09/2016 12:00, Simon Mason wrote:
I have decided for the latter.

http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

This is a DIY group, what was wrong fitting it yourself?

Rather than from an outfit that neatly forgets to mention much of the
running costs as well as a ridiculous comparison of online prices with
buying local. How much did they pay for their salt?

On 16/09/2016 12:00, Simon Mason wrote:
I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown


Fitted one of these many years ago.
http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Det...p?ProductID=87
Cheap salt sacks from Costco
That said, when it was EMWC branded not Harveys it was a bit cheaper
IIRC. I'd still fit the same model again if I ever moved house though.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:


I have decided for the latter.

8kg of block salt about £35 or £4.38 per kilo.

25kg tablet salt £11 or £0.44 per kg

hard decision.

On 16/09/16 15:03, Peter Parry wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:


I have decided for the latter.

8kg of block salt about £35 or £4.38 per kilo.

25kg tablet salt £11 or £0.44 per kg

last time I bought it it was less than that. About £7-8 IIRC.


hard decision.


:-)

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 16/09/2016 12:00, Simon Mason wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown


Fitted one of these many years ago.
http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Det...p?ProductID=87
Cheap salt sacks from Costco
That said, when it was EMWC branded not Harveys it was a bit cheaper
IIRC. I'd still fit the same model again if I ever moved house though.




Last time I looked a softener was about £200 from Amazon. I
installed ours over 30 years ago and it is still working.

On 16/09/16 20:49, Capitol wrote:
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 16/09/2016 12:00, Simon Mason wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown



Fitted one of these many years ago.
http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Det...p?ProductID=87
Cheap salt sacks from Costco
That said, when it was EMWC branded not Harveys it was a bit cheaper
IIRC. I'd still fit the same model again if I ever moved house though.




Last time I looked a softener was about £200 from Amazon. I
installed ours over 30 years ago and it is still working.

That must have been over 30 years ago! think nearer £400 for a medium house


http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Water...-E10T/p/421700



--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/09/16 20:49, Capitol wrote:
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 16/09/2016 12:00, Simon Mason wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown




Fitted one of these many years ago.
http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Det...p?ProductID=87
Cheap salt sacks from Costco
That said, when it was EMWC branded not Harveys it was a bit cheaper
IIRC. I'd still fit the same model again if I ever moved house though.




Last time I looked a softener was about £200 from Amazon. I
installed ours over 30 years ago and it is still working.

That must have been over 30 years ago! think nearer £400 for a medium
house


http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Water...-E10T/p/421700



From £239, Amazon, delivered.

On Friday, 16 September 2016 17:23:45 UTC+1, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

I fitted a MegaSiemen water purifier at our old lab, so I should have the skills.

In article ,
Caecilius writes:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

It's a luxury item - no one needs one, and rather few people
have them. Therefore, it's a low volume high mark-up market.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 17/09/16 08:32, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Caecilius writes:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

It's a luxury item - no one needs one, and rather few people
have them. Therefore, it's a low volume high mark-up market.

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.



--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

In message , Peter Parry
writes
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:


I have decided for the latter.

8kg of block salt about £35 or £4.38 per kilo.

25kg tablet salt £11 or £0.44 per kg

25kg tablets from my builders merchant, £20/3 bags including VAT

hard decision.

--
Tim Lamb

On Saturday, 17 September 2016 08:35:29 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.

Indeed - it will pay for itself over time. plus Mrs M will love the soft water she enjoys on holiday.

Our Ca is a sky high 274 mgm-3

On 17/09/2016 08:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.

The reasons we didn't install one:

Nowhere convenient to fit one;
Kept expecting to move "real soon now";
Almost everything was already scaled up, at least to some extent.

The reason we won't now install one:
We moved to a fairly soft water area.

--
Rod

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article , Caecilius
writes:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

It's a luxury item - no one needs one, and rather few people have them.
Therefore, it's a low volume high mark-up market.

If you lived in a hard water area, you'd know why people need one.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
polygonum wrote:
On 17/09/2016 08:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.

The reasons we didn't install one:

Nowhere convenient to fit one;
Kept expecting to move "real soon now";
Almost everything was already scaled up, at least to some extent.

When refitting our kitchen, I removed a piece of iron pipe qqite straight
and about 4 ft long. I couldn't see through it. I'm not sure how the water
made it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/09/16 08:32, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Caecilius writes:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown


The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

It's a luxury item - no one needs one, and rather few people
have them. Therefore, it's a low volume high mark-up market.

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and
spend a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.




Agreed!

On 17/09/16 08:48, polygonum wrote:
On 17/09/2016 08:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.

The reasons we didn't install one:

Nowhere convenient to fit one;
Kept expecting to move "real soon now";
Almost everything was already scaled up, at least to some extent.

The reason we won't now install one:
We moved to a fairly soft water area.

Proper valid reasons.

Payback is long term, and dependent on being on hard water


--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On Saturday, 17 September 2016 11:09:14 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/09/16 08:48, polygonum wrote:
On 17/09/2016 08:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.

The reasons we didn't install one:

Nowhere convenient to fit one;
Kept expecting to move "real soon now";
Almost everything was already scaled up, at least to some extent.

The reason we won't now install one:
We moved to a fairly soft water area.

Proper valid reasons.

Payback is long term, and dependent on being on hard water


He just e-mailed me - £1500 incl VAT and fitting.

On 17/09/16 15:29, Simon Mason wrote:
On Saturday, 17 September 2016 11:09:14 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/09/16 08:48, polygonum wrote:
On 17/09/2016 08:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On the contrary everyone in hard water area needs one.

Do you really want to be replacing heating coils every few years, have
scaled up shower heads and taps and loos encrusted with lime, and spend
a fortune on generating soap scum instead of a lather?

Probably the most imnportant bit of plumbing you will ever install.

The reasons we didn't install one:

Nowhere convenient to fit one;
Kept expecting to move "real soon now";
Almost everything was already scaled up, at least to some extent.

The reason we won't now install one:
We moved to a fairly soft water area.

Proper valid reasons.

Payback is long term, and dependent on being on hard water


He just e-mailed me - £1500 incl VAT and fitting.

Thats a lot. Unless there is extensive pipework needed to be installed.

I think you can do it for less. I fitted mine in about a day, and it
was about £400. So £600 is what you should pay.


--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On Saturday, 17 September 2016 15:57:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

He just e-mailed me - £1500 incl VAT and fitting.

Thats a lot. Unless there is extensive pipework needed to be installed.

I think you can do it for less. I fitted mine in about a day, and it
was about £400. So £600 is what you should pay.


Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding domestic water softening for your home.

We supply top of the range Harveys MiniMaxM2 block water softeners which are factory set to suit the hardness of the water in your home.

The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation is around £180 to £200.

The running costs are minimal, assuming that there are only two of you in the house the cost of salt would be around £60 to £70 per year with no other running costs.

The benefits derived from the installation of a quality softener in house with hard water far outweigh the initial investment and you can expect the equipment to have paid for itself after about 2.5 years with on going cost savings in the normal consumables such as washing powder, dishwasher tablets, soap, shampoo and descalers.

You will no longer have problems with the build up of limescale in pipes, your boiler, hot water tank and kitchen appliances such as washing machine and dishwasher the lives of which will be greatly extended.

On 17/09/16 16:03, Simon Mason wrote:
On Saturday, 17 September 2016 15:57:47 UTC+1, The Natural
Philosopher wrote:

He just e-mailed me - £1500 incl VAT and fitting.

Thats a lot. Unless there is extensive pipework needed to be
installed.

I think you can do it for less. I fitted mine in about a day, and
it was about £400. So £600 is what you should pay.


The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation
costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position
of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation
is around £180 to £200.


Ok so a very expensive softener.

Labour is OK. But I bet they make 30% on the kit


--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 17/09/2016 16:03, Simon Mason wrote:

The benefits derived from the installation of a quality softener in
house with hard water far outweigh the initial investment and you can
expect the equipment to have paid for itself after about 2.5 years
with on going cost savings in the normal consumables such as washing
powder, dishwasher tablets, soap, shampoo and descalers.

You will no longer have problems with the build up of limescale in
pipes, your boiler, hot water tank and kitchen appliances such as
washing machine and dishwasher the lives of which will be greatly
extended.


Funny, dishwashers usually have built in softeners so don't need soft water.
Up to a hardness of about 21 degrees you can use "salt action" tablets
and not use the softener at all.

On 17/09/2016 10:48, Huge wrote:


(The water is also very heavily chlorinated. It's disgusting.)



Fit a GAC filter for ~£20 and the chlorine goes away.

On 17/09/2016 21:36, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/09/2016 10:48, Huge wrote:


(The water is also very heavily chlorinated. It's disgusting.)



Fit a GAC filter for ~£20 and the chlorine goes away.

And how much per year for replacement filters?

--
Rod

In article ,
charles writes:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article , Caecilius
writes:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT), Simon Mason
wrote:

I have decided for the latter.


http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/...ax-m2-vs-crown

The water softener market seems to be very uncompetitive. Standard
softeners havn't changed for years, and the controller head and resin
tank can't cost anywhere near what they (and others) charge for them.

It's a luxury item - no one needs one, and rather few people have them.
Therefore, it's a low volume high mark-up market.

If you lived in a hard water area, you'd know why people need one.

I've only ever lived in hard water areas.

I use a jug water softener for making tea (and because there's
enough chlorine to make the cold water smell like a swimming pool).
Nothing else matters with hard water - used to descale the show
heads, but got ones which don't block with scale (Mira Everclear).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 17/09/2016 21:58, polygonum wrote:
On 17/09/2016 21:36, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/09/2016 10:48, Huge wrote:


(The water is also very heavily chlorinated. It's disgusting.)



Fit a GAC filter for ~£20 and the chlorine goes away.

And how much per year for replacement filters?


http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=76

About £20.

There are cheaper place to buy.

On 17/09/2016 21:58, polygonum wrote:
On 17/09/2016 21:36, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/09/2016 10:48, Huge wrote:


(The water is also very heavily chlorinated. It's disgusting.)



Fit a GAC filter for ~£20 and the chlorine goes away.

And how much per year for replacement filters?


This one does 20,000 litres for £10.

http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=482

Once you fit a 10" or 20" filter housing you can buy spares from loads
of places as they are a standard fit.

On Saturday, 17 September 2016 16:03:17 UTC+1, Simon Mason wrote:
On Saturday, 17 September 2016 15:57:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

He just e-mailed me - £1500 incl VAT and fitting.

Thats a lot. Unless there is extensive pipework needed to be installed.

I think you can do it for less. I fitted mine in about a day, and it
was about £400. So £600 is what you should pay.


Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding domestic water softening for your home.

We supply top of the range Harveys MiniMaxM2 block water softeners which are factory set to suit the hardness of the water in your home.

ie will work anywhere

The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation is around £180 to £200.

steep!

The running costs are minimal, assuming that there are only two of you in the house the cost of salt would be around £60 to £70 per year with no other running costs.

The benefits derived from the installation of a quality softener in house with hard water far outweigh the initial investment and you can expect the equipment to have paid for itself after about 2.5 years with on going cost savings in the normal consumables such as washing powder, dishwasher tablets, soap, shampoo and descalers.

you'd have to be lunatics to be spending £750+ a year on shampoo, washing powder etc MORE than you would afterwards. Ie if it halved use you'd have to be spending £1500 now for what he says to be true. £30 every week.


You will no longer have problems with the build up of limescale in pipes, your boiler, hot water tank and kitchen appliances such as washing machine and dishwasher the lives of which will be greatly extended.

but you will suffer corrosion. And lime will no longer plug the pinhole leaks that develop in water heating kit. And the sodium ions in the water will kill plants if used on them.


NT

On Saturday, 17 September 2016 21:36:34 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/09/2016 10:48, Huge wrote:


(The water is also very heavily chlorinated. It's disgusting.)

Put it in a jug in the fridge, the chlorine is soon evaporated off.


NT

On Sunday, 18 September 2016 10:27:02 UTC+1, wrote:


The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation is around £180 to £200.

steep!


Too late - he's coming around tomorrow morning.

In message ,
Simon Mason writes
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 10:27:02 UTC+1, wrote:


The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation
costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position
of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation
is around £180 to £200.

steep!


Too late - he's coming around tomorrow morning.

Hmm.. generally you need additional plumbing. IANAP:-)

You don't want softened water feeding the toilets because the insoluble
sodium carbonate can crystallise out on the toilet bowl surface leaving
grey streaks. A chemist may care to correct me:-)

If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may choose to
run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.



--
Tim Lamb

On 18/09/16 15:39, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Simon Mason writes
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 10:27:02 UTC+1, wrote:


The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation
costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position
of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation
is around £180 to £200.

steep!


Too late - he's coming around tomorrow morning.

Hmm.. generally you need additional plumbing. IANAP:-)

You don't want softened water feeding the toilets because the insoluble
sodium carbonate can crystallise out on the toilet bowl surface leaving
grey streaks. A chemist may care to correct me:-)

Yes you do, because sodium carbonate is soluble. That's is the whole
point of softeners. TO replace calcium carbonate, of limited solubility,
with sodium carbonate, of vastly improved solubility, and to NOT replace
sodium stearate (soap) with calcium stearate (soap scum).

Softened water bogs don't scale up or deposit, essentially. Hard water
fed ones do., I have chipped blocks 3" deep of combined **** and scale
off a toilet that used to block, when I was a poor man...



If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may choose to
run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.

Frankly water full of sodium carbonate is more pleasant that water full
of calcium.


The law prefers you to have the drinking tap un-softened. IMO and IME
all the rest of the plumbing should be softened.

Even if its to ensure the pipework doesn't scale







--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On Sunday, 18 September 2016 15:48:58 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Simon Mason writes
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 10:27:02 UTC+1, wrote:


The cost of the softener is £1250 including VAT and installation
costs are dependent upon the complexity or otherwise of the position
of incoming mains water to the house, but generally the installation
is around £180 to £200.

steep!


Too late - he's coming around tomorrow morning.

Hmm.. generally you need additional plumbing. IANAP:-)

You don't want softened water feeding the toilets because the insoluble
sodium carbonate can crystallise out on the toilet bowl surface leaving
grey streaks. A chemist may care to correct me:-)


I AM a chemist and Sodium Carbonate is also called "washing soda" for a reason.

On Sunday, 18 September 2016 16:01:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may choose to
run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.

As we only drink carbonated bottled water, we are getting the whole supply done.

In article , Simon
Mason wrote:
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 16:01:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may choose
to run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.

As we only drink carbonated bottled water, we are getting the whole
supply done.

don't you drink tea? or coffee?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article , Simon
Mason wrote:
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 16:32:06 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
Simon Mason wrote:
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 16:01:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may
choose to run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.

As we only drink carbonated bottled water, we are getting the whole
supply done.

don't you drink tea? or coffee?


Coffee is from a bean to cup machine


[Snip]

but also needs water -

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 18/09/2016 16:30, Simon Mason wrote:
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 16:01:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may choose to
run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.

As we only drink carbonated bottled water, we are getting the whole supply done.

I take it you don't drink tea or coffee, or anything else that might
initially come from your kitchen cold tap?

On Sunday, 18 September 2016 17:13:37 UTC+1, Fredxxx wrote:
On 18/09/2016 16:30, Simon Mason wrote:
On Sunday, 18 September 2016 16:01:47 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If the kitchen tap (drinking) is left on hard water, you may choose to
run the washing m/c / dishwasher on soft.

As we only drink carbonated bottled water, we are getting the whole supply done.

I take it you don't drink tea or coffee, or anything else that might
initially come from your kitchen cold tap?

Only coffee, but the machine has a descaling programme which should need less scheduled maintenance.