Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches, the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the holder and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the switching in and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box puts the light on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

Jon

In article , Jon
Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or
other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the
door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Contactors are the name used by electricians for relays


My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to
have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches,
the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections
for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the
holder and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the
switching in and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box
puts the light on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would
energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

To avoid digging into the door control circuit, use a photo sensor to note
the light has come on. This can then operate a contactor, possibly with a
"delay off" if you want the garage lights to stay on longer than the one in
the door mechanism.

Haven't felt the need.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 10:07:28 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:
To avoid digging into the door control circuit, use a photo sensor to note
the light has come on. This can then operate a contactor, possibly with a
"delay off" if you want the garage lights to stay on longer than the one in
the door mechanism.

I did wonder about that too. Would such a photo sensor be able to tell the difference between the control box light (not very bright) and sunlight? Where the control box is it is exposed to daylight when the garage door is open.

Regards
Jon

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:02:07 -0700, Jon Parker wrote:

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to
have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches,
the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Look into Solid State Relays; much nicer to use.

On 8/10/2016 10:10 PM, charles wrote:
In article , Jon
Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or
other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the
door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Contactors are the name used by electricians for relays

Wikipedia sort of says that a contactor is a relay for more than 15
amps. I always thought that a contactor was a relay specifically
designed for operating an electric motor of perhaps 1/4 HP upwards.

Whatever the exact definition, I'd have said that you were right, you
just need a relay (of suitable rating of course).


My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to
have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches,
the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections
for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the
holder and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the
switching in and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box
puts the light on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would
energise.

If the bulb is in a bulb holder, is it *really* not possible to connect
to its feed from the back, as it were?


Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

To avoid digging into the door control circuit, use a photo sensor to note
the light has come on. This can then operate a contactor, possibly with a
"delay off" if you want the garage lights to stay on longer than the one in
the door mechanism.

Agreed, but seems like more work to me. Another option might be to put a
microswitch at each end of the door travel, and use these to activate
the lights. With sufficiently cunning wiring it should be possible to
make either switch operate the circuit.


Haven't felt the need.

On 10/08/2016 22:10, charles wrote:
In article , Jon
Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or
other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the
door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Contactors are the name used by electricians for relays


My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to
have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches,
the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections
for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the
holder and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the
switching in and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box
puts the light on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would
energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

To avoid digging into the door control circuit, use a photo sensor to note
the light has come on. This can then operate a contactor, possibly with a
"delay off" if you want the garage lights to stay on longer than the one in
the door mechanism.

Haven't felt the need.

Not much digging required. Find the wires that go to the bulbholder of
the built-in lamp, connect the contactor coil to those, use the
contactor to switch the lights.

On the face of it it sounds pretty simple. Obviously some care about
electrical safety, and you might need an extra transistor to give enough
switching current for a relay that is switching mains lighting, so may need
a feed from another more capable power supply, but assumedly this is what
the motor for the door needs, or is it?
I think your father might have been thinking that the door opening voltage
might just be enough to seperate a relay or a light on its own, but of
course when the Dorr stops,the light would go out, so you might need some
kind of latching circuit. It all depends though on how long you want the
light to be on. If you want it always on and then goes off when you manually
turn it off, then an old fashioned triac on DC and a relay would suffice,
but you would need to interrupt the load for ie the relay when you turned
off the light.
You know I am sure somebody must have thought of this already.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Jon Parker" wrote in message
...
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or
other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you activate
the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this very
small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of relay
set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and started
talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to have a
relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches, the relay
effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections for
the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the holder
and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the switching in
and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box puts the light
on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

Jon

On 10/08/2016 22:02, Jon Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches, the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the holder and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the switching in and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box puts the light on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

Jon

Use a bayonet connector (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01926YKGW?psc=1
) to replace the lamp on your door opener, connect that to your
contactor and the contactor to your lighting switch. Any problem in the
future and you can just unplug the bayonet connector re insert your lamp
and your door is as it is at the moment. I'm sure your FIL can provide
a suitable box for the contactor.

If your lamp is an ES there are convertors available.

Peter

On 11/08/2016 08:08, Peter Andrews wrote:
On 10/08/2016 22:02, Jon Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something
or other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after
the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of
this very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some
sort of relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was
skeptical and started talking about contactors, which I've never heard
of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to
have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light
switches, the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have
connections for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing
the bulb from the holder and somehow wiring to the actual light
fitting to provide the switching in and off connections to the relay,
i.e. when the control box puts the light on, instead of the bulb
illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

Jon

Use a bayonet connector (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01926YKGW?psc=1 )
to replace the lamp on your door opener, connect that to your contactor
and the contactor to your lighting switch. Any problem in the future
and you can just unplug the bayonet connector re insert your lamp and
your door is as it is at the moment. I'm sure your FIL can provide a
suitable box for the contactor.

If your lamp is an ES there are convertors available.

The only gotcha is that since it is a two switch system the relay will
need to be a 2 pole changeover to allow it to work with the existing
switch wiring. Such mains powered relays are available. eg

https://www.rapidonline.com/good-sky...230vac-60-1676

12v & 24v ones also available in the same range.

One thought though - might it not be simpler to replace the poxy
filament lamp in the unit with a much higher efficiency LED based one?

TBH the dim light never really bothered me. Not sure I want the full
workshop illumination coming on when I drive into the garage. YMMV

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thursday, 11 August 2016 08:46:40 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
The only gotcha is that since it is a two switch system the relay will
need to be a 2 pole changeover to allow it to work with the existing
switch wiring.

The relay will have no knowledge of the existing state of the switches and, if the lights are already on, will turn them off.

Much better to use a SPST relay between the two strapping wires of the existing 2-way switch wiring. That will force the lights on for the time period regardless of the existing state of the lights.

Owain

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 8:07:46 AM UTC+1, Peter Andrews wrote:
Use a bayonet connector (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01926YKGW?psc=1
) to replace the lamp on your door opener, connect that to your
contactor and the contactor to your lighting switch. Any problem in the
future and you can just unplug the bayonet connector re insert your lamp
and your door is as it is at the moment. I'm sure your FIL can provide
a suitable box for the contactor.

That's just the job, great spot sir!

Jon

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 8:46:40 AM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 11/08/2016 08:08, Peter Andrews wrote:
https://www.rapidonline.com/good-sky...230vac-60-1676

Thanks for that, bookmarked.

One thought though - might it not be simpler to replace the poxy
filament lamp in the unit with a much higher efficiency LED based one?

Sadly not. The control box is near the front of the garage as you might expect. I have to reverse in to the garage and it's quite tight as it is and I want proper light so that I can see exactly where I am.

Regards
Jon

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 9:20:38 AM UTC+1, wrote:
The relay will have no knowledge of the existing state of the switches and, if the lights are already on, will turn them off.

Much better to use a SPST relay between the two strapping wires of the existing 2-way switch wiring. That will force the lights on for the time period regardless of the existing state of the lights.

Yes, this is exactly what I want to achieve. Thanks, I'll show this FIL.

Regards
Jon

I always wondered why they had such poxy lights. They seem old fashioned.

Jon Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something
or other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after
the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of
this very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some
sort of relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was
skeptical and started talking about contactors, which I've never
heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in
low-power situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea
would be to have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage
light switches, the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have
connections for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing
the bulb from the holder and somehow wiring to the actual light
fitting to provide the switching in and off connections to the relay,
i.e. when the control box puts the light on, instead of the bulb
illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

BTDTGTTS.

Having mulled the problem over for a while I decided it was easier just
to fit a separate movement-triggered bulkhead light, less than £20 from
eBay, and with independent control over the "on" period and the
location. Never regretted it.


--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 11/08/2016 09:57, Jon Parker wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 8:07:46 AM UTC+1, Peter Andrews wrote:
Use a bayonet connector (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01926YKGW?psc=1
) to replace the lamp on your door opener, connect that to your
contactor and the contactor to your lighting switch. Any problem in the
future and you can just unplug the bayonet connector re insert your lamp
and your door is as it is at the moment. I'm sure your FIL can provide
a suitable box for the contactor.

That's just the job, great spot sir!

Jon

Unfortunately since posting this I have found the manual on line and
noticed that the lamp is probably an E14 25w 240v and as I have been
unable to locate an E14 connector you will also then need
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/MiNiWatts%C...ter+e14+to+b22)
to connect to, BUT this combination probably won't fit inside the
housing. However assuming you are not concerned about a warranty on the
opener and your FIL is an electrician he should easily be able to find a
suitable way of connecting a contactor to the unit in parallel with the
existing lamp.

Peter

On 11/08/16 11:08, Mike Barnes wrote:
Jon Parker wrote:
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something
or other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after
the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of
this very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some
sort of relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was
skeptical and started talking about contactors, which I've never
heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in
low-power situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea
would be to have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage
light switches, the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have
connections for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing
the bulb from the holder and somehow wiring to the actual light
fitting to provide the switching in and off connections to the relay,
i.e. when the control box puts the light on, instead of the bulb
illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

BTDTGTTS.

Having mulled the problem over for a while I decided it was easier just
to fit a separate movement-triggered bulkhead light, less than £20 from
eBay, and with independent control over the "on" period and the
location. Never regretted it.


Or fit a optical sensor that detects when the little light is non and
switches the bigger one on..



--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

In article ,
Jon Parker wrote:
I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although never
been quite sure what the definition difference is between a relay and
contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.
An electrical wholesaler would not be the place to go for a relay capable
of switching a few amps anyway - you'd be better at an electronics
supplier like RS. Or even Ebay, for one.

The simple way would be to find a relay with a coil suitable to be driven
from the supplied light, and use it to switch the main ones. If you use a
changeover relay, and a two-way switch for the lights, operating the door
would reverse the state of the lights. Which might give you more choice on
how they get used in practice.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Jon Parker wrote on 10/08/2016 :
Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box - Rollixo something or
other. I've lent the installation manual to father in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you activate
the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this very
small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of relay
set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and started
talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to have a
relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light switches, the relay
effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have connections for
the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the bulb from the holder
and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting to provide the switching in
and off connections to the relay, i.e. when the control box puts the light
on, instead of the bulb illuminating the relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

Jon

It could be done. A contactor is just the name used by electricians,
usually for a someone larger version of a relay. You need a relay/
contactor with the coil rated for the voltage and ac or dc of the
voltage across the internal light. The contacts of which should be
rated for mains voltage ac, at what ever current rating of the larger
light you intend fitting.

Another way, would be to wire a mains light up via a PIR. That would
come on when ever you drove in or walked into the garage.

Jon Parker wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 8:46:40 AM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:

On 11/08/2016 08:08, Peter Andrews wrote:
https://www.rapidonline.com/good-sky...230vac-60-1676

Thanks for that, bookmarked.


One thought though - might it not be simpler to replace the poxy
filament lamp in the unit with a much higher efficiency LED based one?

Sadly not. The control box is near the front of the garage as you might expect. I have to reverse in to the garage and it's quite tight as it is and I want proper light so that I can see exactly where I am.

Regards
Jon


Is it cheaper to buy a 7in reversing camera for the car?

Jon Parker wrote:

Folks,

A normal motorised garage door with a control box -
Rollixo something or other. I've lent the installation manual to father
in law.

This control box has a worthless light on it that comes on when you
activate the door either up or down, and stays on for 2 minutes after
the door stops.

I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

My understanding of a relay is that they are usually used in low-power
situations to switch circuits of higher power. So my idea would be to
have a relay somewhere alongside my existing two garage light
switches, the relay effectively acting as 3rd switch.

Helpfully the connector bar in the control box doesn't have
connections for the internal light, so I further envisaged removing the
bulb from the holder and somehow wiring to the actual light fitting
to provide the switching in and off connections to the relay, i.e. when
the control box puts the light on, instead of the bulb illuminating the
relay would energise.

Are you with me so far? Anyone else managed to do this successfully?

Jon

I did this with a relay mounted in a box near the existing light switch
connected to the bulb wires in the control unit. The relay contacts
are wired via a switch to the existing light switch so you can choose
not to have the main lights come on when the door is opened, e.g. if
leaving the door open during the day. This worked well until the light
circuit failed on. I replaced by a micro-switch in a box over the door
operated by the final phase of door closing which is to push the top
of the door against the frame. Parts were a few pounds from Maplin.

I also wired a push button in the same box near the light switch to the
unit's door operation button so can open from the door to the kitchen.

Paul.

On 11/08/16 16:58, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
A contactor is just the name used by electricians, usually for a someone
larger version of a relay.

IN schematic terms, yes, but the actual construction is usually a bit
different, with contacts ofren being self wiping.


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jon Parker wrote:
I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although never
been quite sure what the definition difference is between a relay and
contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.



Contactors do not "bounce" on switching.

Not that that will be a problem on a couple of lights.

--
Adam

Unfortunately since posting this I have found the manual on line and
noticed that the lamp is probably an E14 25w 240v and as I have been
una

Pathetic specification - Pre GU10 LED

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although never
been quite sure what the definition difference is between a relay and
contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.



Contactors do not "bounce" on switching.

One very common use of relays was switching audio in telephone etc
circuits. Don't think 'bounce' would be welcome there either. ;-)

Not that that will be a problem on a couple of lights.

Didn't realise it was a problem.

--
*I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although never
been quite sure what the definition difference is between a relay and
contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.



Contactors do not "bounce" on switching.

One very common use of relays was switching audio in telephone etc
circuits. Don't think 'bounce' would be welcome there either. ;-)

They do bounce, but it happens too quickly, and the power switched is
too low, for it to be a problem. Digital things driven by relays know
what to expect and watch them until they've finished bouncing.



Not that that will be a problem on a couple of lights.

Didn't realise it was a problem.

It's potential problem that has to be considered in the design.


--

Roger Hayter

On 11/08/2016 20:16, ARW wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jon Parker wrote:
I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although never
been quite sure what the definition difference is between a relay and
contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.



Contactors do not "bounce" on switching.

Yes they do. A contactor is a heavy relay, usually designed usually for
starting and running motors. There are other categories. Unless the
contacts are mercury wetted or similar, they will surely bounce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor

On 12/08/16 00:47, Fredxxx wrote:
On 11/08/2016 20:16, ARW wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jon Parker wrote:
I'd quite like to have the actual garage lights come on instead of this
very small bulb built into the control box. I suggested a some sort of
relay set-up to father-in-law (an electrician) but he was skeptical and
started talking about contactors, which I've never heard of.

Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although never
been quite sure what the definition difference is between a relay and
contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.



Contactors do not "bounce" on switching.

Yes they do. A contactor is a heavy relay, usually designed usually for
starting and running motors. There are other categories. Unless the
contacts are mercury wetted or similar, they will surely bounce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor

Some will, others are actually sliding (wiping) contacts. These tend not
to bounce.



--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

In article ,
newshound writes:
On 8/10/2016 10:10 PM, charles wrote:
In article , Jon

Contactors are the name used by electricians for relays

Wikipedia sort of says that a contactor is a relay for more than 15
amps. I always thought that a contactor was a relay specifically
designed for operating an electric motor of perhaps 1/4 HP upwards.

Whatever the exact definition, I'd have said that you were right, you
just need a relay (of suitable rating of course).

Contactors are a subset of relays.
They have normally open contacts, which use the high force of
the closed magnetic solenoid to exert high pressure on the
contacts so they can pass a high current.

They may also have normally closed contacts, but those only
have the return spring contact pressure and are thus rated
for lower current.

Can also sometimes have auxilliary contacts for additional
low current switching, e.g to activate or lock-out other
contactor coils, indicator lights, etc).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 00:40:28 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Electricians aren't generally that familiar with relays. Although
never been quite sure what the definition difference is between a
relay and contactor. Except that a contactor is a form of relay.



Contactors do not "bounce" on switching.

One very common use of relays was switching audio in telephone etc
circuits. Don't think 'bounce' would be welcome there either. ;-)

They do bounce, but it happens too quickly, and the power switched is
too low, for it to be a problem. Digital things driven by relays know
what to expect and watch them until they've finished bouncing.

A common way to eliminate 'contact bounce' on input switches to digital
circuits was to use a non-inverting buffer (a couple of 'spare' inverting
gates wired up to act as a non-inverting buffer in many cases) with the
output wired to its input connected to common contact of a single pole
break before make c/o switch with the other two poles wired to the 5v and
zero volt rails respectively in the case of TTL logic levels.

The brief spike of short circuit current to Vcc level did no harm to the
totem pole outputs when the switches were operated manually (it would be
doubtful whether the switch itself could physically survive being
operated by a high speed electro-mechanical actuator going fast enough to
raise the duty cycle of these short circuit transients to a dangerous
enough level).

It didn't matter that the switch contacts bounced because the very first
contact would latch the input state requiring the switch to be operated
fully to get the the common to contact the opposite contact and force the
latching circuit into the opposite state. Using cheap 'n' cheerful single
pole break before make c/o panel switches with a simple self latching
input circuit was a neat way to de-bounce control panel input switching
signals.



Not that that will be a problem on a couple of lights.

Didn't realise it was a problem.

It's potential problem that has to be considered in the design.

Is exactly the right answer! :-)

In the case of largely resistive ac lighting loads, the electrical
erosion that creates pip and crater wear on switch contacts when using a
DC supply is virtually eliminated by the use of AC current (as is the
required open circuit contact gap by virtue of the current falling to
zero a hundred or a hundred and twenty times a second on UK and US
supplies respectively).

Controlling even modest levels of DC power can cause contacts to weld
closed if contact bounce isn't contained within acceptable levels (much
lower levels than required in AC power circuits). Also, what marks off a
'contactor' type relay is the inclusion of a rapid toggling action to
reduce arcing time on interruption of current (a vital requirement when
switching DC supply voltages) as well as to reduce contact bounce on
closing the circuit. For really difficult high amperage, high voltage
circuits, the mercury tilt switch type contactor is still a favourite
choice when long life and reliability is demanded (no pip and crater
erosion issues!).

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Whatever the exact definition, I'd have said that you were right, you
just need a relay (of suitable rating of course).

Contactors are a subset of relays.
They have normally open contacts, which use the high force of
the closed magnetic solenoid to exert high pressure on the
contacts so they can pass a high current.

Not quite sure how that is any different from a simple ST relay?

They may also have normally closed contacts, but those only
have the return spring contact pressure and are thus rated
for lower current.

Right. Generally, a relay will have the same current rating for NO and NC
contacts.

Can also sometimes have auxilliary contacts for additional
low current switching, e.g to activate or lock-out other
contactor coils, indicator lights, etc).

You can get some amazingly complicated relay contact layouts too. Ones
which go to a low holding current being quite common, for example.

I've tended to think of a contactor as something more akin to a motor
switch, which includes overload protection.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 5:05:05 PM UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
Is it cheaper to buy a 7in reversing camera for the car?

Doubtful, but in any case that's not what I want.

Jon

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 3:21:01 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The simple way would be to find a relay with a coil suitable to be driven
from the supplied light, and use it to switch the main ones.

This is exactly my plan!

If you use a
changeover relay, and a two-way switch for the lights, operating the door
would reverse the state of the lights.

I have two light switches already, one at either end of the garage. Another poster suggested wiring between the two switch wires with the relay ) I think) - that seemed sensible:

"Much better to use a SPST (Single Pole Single Throw?) relay between the two strapping wires of the existing 2-way switch wiring. That will force the lights on for the time period regardless of the existing state of the lights."

Jon

In article ,
Jon Parker wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 3:21:01 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
The simple way would be to find a relay with a coil suitable to be
driven from the supplied light, and use it to switch the main ones.

This is exactly my plan!

If you use a changeover relay, and a two-way switch for the lights,
operating the door would reverse the state of the lights.

I have two light switches already, one at either end of the garage.
Another poster suggested wiring between the two switch wires with the
relay ) I think) - that seemed sensible:

"Much better to use a SPST (Single Pole Single Throw?) relay between
the two strapping wires of the existing 2-way switch wiring. That will
force the lights on for the time period regardless of the existing
state of the lights."

Yes - but make it impossible to switch off the lights when the door was
open. Your choice.

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 00:56:24 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Jon Parker wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 3:21:01 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
The simple way would be to find a relay with a coil suitable to be
driven from the supplied light, and use it to switch the main ones.

This is exactly my plan!

If you use a changeover relay, and a two-way switch for the lights,
operating the door would reverse the state of the lights.

I have two light switches already, one at either end of the garage.
Another poster suggested wiring between the two switch wires with the
relay ) I think) - that seemed sensible:

"Much better to use a SPST (Single Pole Single Throw?) relay between
the two strapping wires of the existing 2-way switch wiring. That
will force the lights on for the time period regardless of the
existing state of the lights."

Yes - but make it impossible to switch off the lights when the door was
open. Your choice.

That doesn't matter if the relay is only operated by a one shot flip/
flop timer to give a few minutes of on time overriding the normal two way
light switches (and, a rather neat solution in this case). :-)

The only problem though is that if you operate one of the 2 way switches
during this relay mediated on period, unless you can readily see the
state of the garage light after you've entered the house, you could land
up unintentionally leaving the garage light on until the next time you
enter the garage.

There are ways to eliminate this risk but it involves a more complicated
control circuit requiring the light switches to be replaced by momentary
push switches to provide user input to the controller logic.

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
Yes - but make it impossible to switch off the lights when the door was
open. Your choice.

That doesn't matter if the relay is only operated by a one shot flip/
flop timer to give a few minutes of on time overriding the normal two way
light switches (and, a rather neat solution in this case). :-)

The only problem though is that if you operate one of the 2 way switches
during this relay mediated on period, unless you can readily see the
state of the garage light after you've entered the house, you could land
up unintentionally leaving the garage light on until the next time you
enter the garage.

There are ways to eliminate this risk but it involves a more
complicated control circuit requiring the light switches to be replaced
by momentary push switches to provide user input to the controller
logic.

Yes. Only the OP can decide what really would suit him. Anything is
possible.

It never ceases to surprise with things like this what seems perfectly
logical to one, is not to another.

Had some relations staying the other day. When I wired this house, I put
light switches for the hall and stairs etc, so you could always switch on
the needed ones without a detour. The stairs lighting having 5 switches.

Confused the f**k out of them. ;-)

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 18:17:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
Yes - but make it impossible to switch off the lights when the door
was open. Your choice.

That doesn't matter if the relay is only operated by a one shot flip/
flop timer to give a few minutes of on time overriding the normal two
way light switches (and, a rather neat solution in this case). :-)

The only problem though is that if you operate one of the 2 way
switches
during this relay mediated on period, unless you can readily see the
state of the garage light after you've entered the house, you could
land up unintentionally leaving the garage light on until the next time
you enter the garage.

There are ways to eliminate this risk but it involves a more
complicated control circuit requiring the light switches to be replaced
by momentary push switches to provide user input to the controller
logic.

Yes. Only the OP can decide what really would suit him. Anything is
possible.

It never ceases to surprise with things like this what seems perfectly
logical to one, is not to another.

Had some relations staying the other day. When I wired this house, I put
light switches for the hall and stairs etc, so you could always switch
on the needed ones without a detour. The stairs lighting having 5
switches.

Confused the f**k out of them. ;-)

If that was 5 stair lighting switches per floor, I'm not surprised! :-)

When we moved into this 3 storey Victorian semi detached house some 35
years ago, I found myself having to completely rewire the lighting
circuits (VIR cable hidden away in surface conduits).

When it came to the stairway and hallway lighting, I fitted a dual gang
and a single gang 2 way set of lighting switches on the first landing to
control the hall, the first and the second floor landing lights.

I still get confused by this trio of switches from time to time.
Thankfully, only rarely and usually when I'm not concentrating as I
should when intending to light up the top floor landing. Thinking about
it, this is odd considering the switches are stacked one above the other
with the single gang top floor landing switch placed exactly where logic
would dictate, in the uppermost position. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
Had some relations staying the other day. When I wired this house, I put
light switches for the hall and stairs etc, so you could always switch
on the needed ones without a detour. The stairs lighting having 5
switches.

Confused the f**k out of them. ;-)

If that was 5 stair lighting switches per floor, I'm not surprised! :-)

No - five in total for the stair lights. Over 2 1/2 floors. No plate has
more than two switches - apart from the one at the front door which has
three - one for the outside lights.

When we moved into this 3 storey Victorian semi detached house some 35
years ago, I found myself having to completely rewire the lighting
circuits (VIR cable hidden away in surface conduits).

And probably switches situated in the best place for the sparks rather
than you - if anything like this one. ;-) But it was lead sheathed in the
main here.

When it came to the stairway and hallway lighting, I fitted a dual gang
and a single gang 2 way set of lighting switches on the first landing to
control the hall, the first and the second floor landing lights.

I still get confused by this trio of switches from time to time.
Thankfully, only rarely and usually when I'm not concentrating as I
should when intending to light up the top floor landing. Thinking about
it, this is odd considering the switches are stacked one above the other
with the single gang top floor landing switch placed exactly where logic
would dictate, in the uppermost position. :-(

I'd just discovered grid switches so loved being able to make up whatever
I wanted. ;-)

--
*What happens when none of your bees wax? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 16:04:12 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
Had some relations staying the other day. When I wired this house, I
put light switches for the hall and stairs etc, so you could always
switch on the needed ones without a detour. The stairs lighting
having 5 switches.

Confused the f**k out of them. ;-)

If that was 5 stair lighting switches per floor, I'm not surprised!
:-)

No - five in total for the stair lights. Over 2 1/2 floors. No plate has
more than two switches - apart from the one at the front door which has
three - one for the outside lights.

In which case, I assume the luminaries on the 1st and 2nd floor landings
aren't independently controlled as mine are (I'm not bragging, just sayin'
- there's a lot to be said for treating the whole hall and stairway as
one extended lighting zone that should be illuminated the whole time
between dusk and bedtime even way back before the advent of the CFL (let
alone today's LED lamps) took the running costs out of the equation).


When we moved into this 3 storey Victorian semi detached house some 35
years ago, I found myself having to completely rewire the lighting
circuits (VIR cable hidden away in surface conduits).

And probably switches situated in the best place for the sparks rather
than you - if anything like this one. ;-) But it was lead sheathed in
the main here.

Thinking about that, I suppose you're right about the siting of the
switches being placed to simplify the wiring topology. In fact, when
checking the location of the top landing light switch just now to confirm
this, I discovered the reason for my occasional confusion with the light
switches on the 1st floor landing.

It turns out that I'd misremembered which way round the single and dual
gang switches had been stacked. The lower single gang switch controls the
hall light, leaving the upper two gang switch plate to handle the landing
lights independently. There *is* a logic to the layout, just not the
logic I'd misremembered. :-( No wonder I sometimes pick the wrong switch
when trying to light up the top landing!


When it came to the stairway and hallway lighting, I fitted a dual
gang
and a single gang 2 way set of lighting switches on the first landing
to control the hall, the first and the second floor landing lights.

I still get confused by this trio of switches from time to time.
Thankfully, only rarely and usually when I'm not concentrating as I
should when intending to light up the top floor landing. Thinking about
it, this is odd considering the switches are stacked one above the
other with the single gang top floor landing switch placed exactly
where logic would dictate, in the uppermost position. :-(

To reiterate, WRONG! The switches are stacked the other way round
(single gang lowermost to control the hall light). :-( However, I have a
similar arrangement on the ground floor where the top switch is a single
gang for the 1st floor landing and the lower dual gang controls the hall
and porch lights in a logical arrangement - the RHS switch being nearest
the front door controlling the porch light[1].


I'd just discovered grid switches so loved being able to make up
whatever I wanted. ;-)

I only discovered grid switches nearly three decades after re-wiring the
lighting circuits (and, shortly thereafter, the rest of the house wiring
which was mostly a disorganised mess of otherwise perfectly good
condition PVC insulated 2.5mm FT&E in a confusing mix of ring and spur
circuits). The discovery was far too late (and expensive imo) to have
been of any benefit - the system works just fine as it is thank you very
much! IOW, I see too little benefit for far too much time and effort (and
expense!) on my part to make it worth the bother. I plan on leaving those
pleasures to the next owner. :-)

[1] I fitted an above the front door porch light (underslung 'coach lamp'
off a bracket screwed onto the key stone high above the front door) just
over 30 years ago which went out of use after fitting an even more
elevated 500W halogen security light which made the porch light somewhat
redundant.

Apart from a lamp change every 12 to 18 months or so, the first security
light lasted so long (over a decade) that the original Porch light rusted
so badly, I had to remove its remains from the bracket, leaving the
(disconnected) flex dangling about a foot or so from the open end of the
bracket's tube where it remained in this state for almost two decades
during which I went through a further two security light replacements.


The final security lamp replacement (yet another 500W halogen jobby -
LED versions were (and still are) underpowered and over-priced and only a
third of the efficiency we had been promised by both Cree and Philips
lighting over two and a half years ago on an 18 to 24 month timescale)
was only fitted 2 years ago and failed completely after only one lamp
change.

Since it was installed so high up on the wall of the house and the
promised high efficiency LED security lights *still* hadn't materialised,
I decided to finally repair the original porch light earlier this year as
a stopgap come backup driveway lighting solution. Even today, the fact
that the RHS switch has an actual function still has a novelty value in
my mind. :-)

I had a problem trying to work out how I had rendered the dangling cord
electrically safe when it came to reinstating this circuit. It turned out
I had simply moved the 'live' from the common onto the opposite c/o
contact of the light switch. Of course, I discovered this only after
lifting floorboards on the 1st landing and the adjoining bathroom to
check out the collection of joint boxes that lived there - it seems I had
been too clever by half when I'd rendered the circuit safe all those many
years ago. :-(

The porch light is a stopgap solution in the sense that I only ever want
to replace that damned security light *one last time* when the promised
250 to 300 Lm/W lamps *finally* make it to market to replace all those
poxy 67 to 81 Lm/W examples still cluttering up the retail distribution
channel (even those 90 to 100 Lm/W lamps that can now be bought from LED
lighting specialist shops are "Too (feckin') Little, Too (feckin') Late."
as far as I'm concerned).

The only saving grace with the incrementally improving LED 'Light Bulbs'
is their ease of fitting into existing interior luminaries, a feature
totally lacking in an LED security light where the LED array is a more
permanently integrated part of the whole luminary - not a detriment in
itself (far from it, one less corrosion prone connector to cause
premature failure with a lamp type rated anywhere from 20,000 hours to
50,000 hours) but an extra cost when incrementally upgrading to higher
and higher efficiency LEDs as they progress towards the promised 300Lm/W
higher output lower heat generation LEDs. I'm hanging on until the LED
arrays used in security lights achieve at least a 200Lm/W efficiency
rating.

It's not so much the reduction of the electricity bills that interests
me (as nice a side effect as that is) so much as the fact that higher
Lumen efficiency means less waste heat for a given lumen output will be
contributing to the lamp's early demise through overheating of the lamp
and its luminary.

That is to say, the freedom to forget the heat dissipation limitations
of existing luminaries designed with high temperature incandescent lamp
requirements in mind when choosing a modern LED Bulb on the basis of
required Lumen output alone. IOW, the need for specially designed for
(the current crop of soon to become obsoleted) LED lamp Luminaries will
eventually become sidelined by the simple expedient of becoming an
antique and unnecessary "Folly". :-)

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
No - five in total for the stair lights. Over 2 1/2 floors. No plate has
more than two switches - apart from the one at the front door which has
three - one for the outside lights.

In which case, I assume the luminaries on the 1st and 2nd floor
landings aren't independently controlled as mine are (I'm not bragging,
just sayin' - there's a lot to be said for treating the whole hall and
stairway as one extended lighting zone that should be illuminated the
whole time between dusk and bedtime even way back before the advent of
the CFL (let alone today's LED lamps) took the running costs out of the
equation).

The 1/2 landing and the first floor landing are on the same circuit. That
gives 'spill' to the top of the first flight of stairs and obviously from
the 1/2 landing to the main one. The ground floor hall lighting does the
main part of the stairs. Although even with downlighters, there is enough
spill for safety with either on the stairs. No need to leave them on here.


When we moved into this 3 storey Victorian semi detached house some
35 years ago, I found myself having to completely rewire the lighting
circuits (VIR cable hidden away in surface conduits).

And probably switches situated in the best place for the sparks rather
than you - if anything like this one. ;-) But it was lead sheathed in
the main here.

Thinking about that, I suppose you're right about the siting of the
switches being placed to simplify the wiring topology. In fact, when
checking the location of the top landing light switch just now to
confirm this, I discovered the reason for my occasional confusion with
the light switches on the 1st floor landing.

It turns out that I'd misremembered which way round the single and
dual gang switches had been stacked. The lower single gang switch
controls the hall light, leaving the upper two gang switch plate to
handle the landing lights independently. There *is* a logic to the
layout, just not the logic I'd misremembered. :-( No wonder I sometimes
pick the wrong switch when trying to light up the top landing!

As I said, mine are all grid switches. So two on a one gang plate. And
easy to have one or both of those intermediates. Side by side switches are
positioned to 'point' to the main source of the light - or order you'd
normally use them.


When it came to the stairway and hallway lighting, I fitted a dual
gang and a single gang 2 way set of lighting switches on the first
landing to control the hall, the first and the second floor landing
lights.

I still get confused by this trio of switches from time to time.
Thankfully, only rarely and usually when I'm not concentrating as I
should when intending to light up the top floor landing. Thinking
about it, this is odd considering the switches are stacked one above
the other with the single gang top floor landing switch placed
exactly where logic would dictate, in the uppermost position. :-(

To reiterate, WRONG! The switches are stacked the other way round
(single gang lowermost to control the hall light). :-( However, I have
a similar arrangement on the ground floor where the top switch is a
single gang for the 1st floor landing and the lower dual gang controls
the hall and porch lights in a logical arrangement - the RHS switch
being nearest the front door controlling the porch light[1].


I'd just discovered grid switches so loved being able to make up
whatever I wanted. ;-)

I only discovered grid switches nearly three decades after re-wiring
the lighting circuits (and, shortly thereafter, the rest of the house
wiring which was mostly a disorganised mess of otherwise perfectly good
condition PVC insulated 2.5mm FT&E in a confusing mix of ring and spur
circuits). The discovery was far too late (and expensive imo) to have
been of any benefit - the system works just fine as it is thank you very
much! IOW, I see too little benefit for far too much time and effort
(and expense!) on my part to make it worth the bother. I plan on
leaving those pleasures to the next owner. :-)

Happily, this place was so bad it all had to be replaced. And I had a very
fixed idea of how I wanted it. And tried to allow for any re-jigging as
rooms were redecorated or re-arranged as time went on. But with all
internal walls being stud and all floors suspended, easier than most to
alter things.

[1] I fitted an above the front door porch light (underslung 'coach
lamp' off a bracket screwed onto the key stone high above the front
door) just over 30 years ago which went out of use after fitting an
even more elevated 500W halogen security light which made the porch
light somewhat redundant.

Apart from a lamp change every 12 to 18 months or so, the first
security light lasted so long (over a decade) that the original Porch
light rusted so badly, I had to remove its remains from the bracket,
leaving the (disconnected) flex dangling about a foot or so from the
open end of the bracket's tube where it remained in this state for
almost two decades during which I went through a further two security
light replacements.


The final security lamp replacement (yet another 500W halogen jobby -
LED versions were (and still are) underpowered and over-priced and only
a third of the efficiency we had been promised by both Cree and Philips
lighting over two and a half years ago on an 18 to 24 month timescale)
was only fitted 2 years ago and failed completely after only one lamp
change.

Since it was installed so high up on the wall of the house and the
promised high efficiency LED security lights *still* hadn't
materialised, I decided to finally repair the original porch light
earlier this year as a stopgap come backup driveway lighting solution.
Even today, the fact that the RHS switch has an actual function still
has a novelty value in my mind. :-)

I had a problem trying to work out how I had rendered the dangling cord
electrically safe when it came to reinstating this circuit. It turned
out I had simply moved the 'live' from the common onto the opposite c/o
contact of the light switch. Of course, I discovered this only after
lifting floorboards on the 1st landing and the adjoining bathroom to
check out the collection of joint boxes that lived there - it seems I
had been too clever by half when I'd rendered the circuit safe all
those many years ago. :-(

The porch light is a stopgap solution in the sense that I only ever
want to replace that damned security light *one last time* when the
promised 250 to 300 Lm/W lamps *finally* make it to market to replace
all those poxy 67 to 81 Lm/W examples still cluttering up the retail
distribution channel (even those 90 to 100 Lm/W lamps that can now be
bought from LED lighting specialist shops are "Too (feckin') Little,
Too (feckin') Late." as far as I'm concerned).

The only saving grace with the incrementally improving LED 'Light
Bulbs' is their ease of fitting into existing interior luminaries, a
feature totally lacking in an LED security light where the LED array is
a more permanently integrated part of the whole luminary - not a
detriment in itself (far from it, one less corrosion prone connector to
cause premature failure with a lamp type rated anywhere from 20,000
hours to 50,000 hours) but an extra cost when incrementally upgrading
to higher and higher efficiency LEDs as they progress towards the
promised 300Lm/W higher output lower heat generation LEDs. I'm hanging
on until the LED arrays used in security lights achieve at least a
200Lm/W efficiency rating.

It's not so much the reduction of the electricity bills that interests
me (as nice a side effect as that is) so much as the fact that higher
Lumen efficiency means less waste heat for a given lumen output will be
contributing to the lamp's early demise through overheating of the lamp
and its luminary.

That is to say, the freedom to forget the heat dissipation limitations
of existing luminaries designed with high temperature incandescent lamp
requirements in mind when choosing a modern LED Bulb on the basis of
required Lumen output alone. IOW, the need for specially designed for
(the current crop of soon to become obsoleted) LED lamp Luminaries will
eventually become sidelined by the simple expedient of becoming an
antique and unnecessary "Folly". :-)

--
Johnny B Good

--
*Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.