On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:38:40 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 13:16:23 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 05:40:12 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 01:18:19 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 00:50:38 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 21/07/2016 00:09, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:50:53 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 20/07/2016 23:25, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:10 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 22:07, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 21:52:01 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 19:39, Bod wrote:
On 19/07/2016 19:34, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:21:53 +0100,
wrote:

On Tuesday, 19 July 2016 18:05:52 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
wrote:

Nobody ever parks right next to a wall. You need to open
the
doors. A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWHYBi7kG8

Brilliant!

I see unlike some showoffs he didn't try to reverse in..

Oh dear! Intelligent drivers reverse into a parking space.

Not if they wish to access the boot they don't. For instance,
there's no
point in reversing into a space at a supermarket, where you
then
can't
get the trolley to the boot.

Same percentage if you look at driveways.

I always reverse onto our drive, unless I specifically want the
car
the
other way round to work on it.

Do you have a valid reason for this? Do you just like showing
off
to
your neighbours?

Two related reasons:

1) It is easier to see approaching pedestrians and vehicles when
driving
out forwards.

No it isn't. Try turning round.

There is less of the car sticking out of the drive before you can
see
clearly to each side, as in most cars, you are sat nearer the
front.

You're actually sat at the central pillar,

Nope, well in front of it.

You must sit in a funny position.

Nope, same place everyone else does.

Are you really short?

Nope.

Hint - the seatbelt is attached to the central pillar. The seatbelt
comes
from there directly across to your shoulder.

And it can only do that if you sit in front of the central pillar.

No.

Yep.

The seatbelt is anchored immediately to the right of your shoulder.

Wrong.

It doesn't come forwards to get to you.

Wrong.

If your car is different, you must have the seat pulled really far
forwards, you must have short legs.

Wrong.

I know I sit in my car with the pillar directly to the right of my head.

which is called central for a reason.

It isnt actually central with most cars.

Is too.

Nope, quite off center in most cars.

Behind it is one row of seats and the boot.

Not with all cars with the row of seats.

In front is one row of eats and the bonnet.

But isnt in the center in a front to back line with most cars.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ssel dorf.jpg

Just the one car, stupid. Even you should have noticed that
there is a lot more car in front of that pillar than behind it.

Yip, my point exactly, have you forgotten what the discussion was about?
Your side of the argument was reversing out is more dangerous because of
more car in front of you, yet you've just admitted there is LESS car in
front of you when reversing.

Look at the drivers seat (on the left, it's a foreign car). The seat
back
is placed just behind the central pillar, so the driver will have his
head
right next to the central pillar.

Now look at the nearest side to us - the pillar is clearly nearer the
BACK
than the front,

So it isnt a central pillar in anything other than the name.

But you seem to think it's closer to the front. It's actually closer to
the back, making reversing safer than going forwards.

so there's clearly less car sticking out when reversing out,

Pity that you can see far less of what is beside the
back of the car when looking over your shoulder.

Why would that be?

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner? I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

Exactly the same as when looking forwards.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Why do you continually cut my replies into pieces and reply to every
single sentence?

Because its better to point out where each bit is wrong.

It just ends up with the same point being made 5 times in a row.

Young children and animals can easily be hidden by a fence or hedge
until the last moment as they cross the end of your drive - you
have
a
far better chance of seeing them in time when driving out forwards
because of both of these.

Except you don't.

But he does with the trailer.

If a pedestrian walks across a drive, he should see and hear vehicles
coming.

But kids and animals don't necessarily get out of the road what
is coming even if they do notice that something is coming.

More fool them, the gene pool needs cleaning.

With you in jail where you can't breed.

If what you say is true I can just claim I couldn't see.

You'll still get jailed for running over the kid.

Nope, it can be the kid's fault you know. Or probably the parent's, even though they weren't there.

Anyway, easy enough to reverse out at 2mph so you won't damage them..

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Do you really think a 2mph car can hurt a kid?

Plenty of little kids get killed when someone backs over them
in the driveway because they didnt realise the little kid was there.

Well that'll make the next generation a bit more careful then.

We've just had the railway station surveillance camera footage of
one little kid that must have been about 5 on the station platform
with a ****ing great coal train coming down the line who actually
leaned right over the edge of the platform with his head in where
the engine would be with the kid only about 3 feet in front of the
engine.

Cool! Link?

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/plus7/survei...n-4-episode-2/
Not clear if your can watch it from there, you may need to use a VPN..

Tried 5 Aussie proxies and none of them fooled the site. "Not available
in your location".

Interesting.

Strange. A proxy should make it appear to the web server that you are in that country. The webserver should see a browser on the IP of the proxy.

That kid needs removing from the gene pool.

Didnt happen.

Presumably some bugger saved him.

Nope, he pulled his head back over the platform before
the front of the engine got to where his head was.

Quick reactions then.

And then ran across the road outside the station and
was lucky there were no cars coming at the time.

And gross stupidity.

Going to be interesting to see how long he survives for.

Indeed.

2) The Highway Code tells drivers to reverse in because of reason
1.

That is not a reason to do anything.

Failing to follow the highway code can count against you if you end
up
in court following an accident.

You don't go to court because your neighbour's dog wasn't paying
attention.

But you will if it's a child.

Children are stupid.

Yes, and that is why you need to be particularly
careful that you don't run over them.

And they have much more tunnel vision than adults too.

You've claimed that before, but I didn't when I was younger.

Everyone does.

No they don't.

Yes they do. That has been studied for many years now.

Show me 3 conclusive properly done studies.

We used to test it in primary school as part of some lesson or other.
Mine was over a bit over 180 degrees (same as it still is), the average
was 180 degrees.

You ****ed that up.

Nope, it was definitely more than directly to my right.

If I had tunnel vision as a kid I would remember it.

If they walk in front of moving vehicles you can only blame them (or
nowadays the parents).

Yes, but it still makes sense to drive in the way that
provides maximum visibility of them so you don't
run over them when they do something stupid.

When parking in a normal carpark, I don't even drive into
a slot when there are kids standing to the side, because
they can do something stupid as you drive into the slot.

If they get in my way it's their problem not mine.

It will be when you end up in jail.

Nope, I'd have been driving into an empty space.

You were driving into a parking place where there
were kids standing next to the car in the next space.

And since they were standing still when I drove in, any movement by them after I'm going towards them is their own stupidity.

Running in front of a car makes it your fault.

The kid didnt run.

Run, cycle, jump, whatever.

And at car park speeds, they can't get more than a bruise.

Must be why some kids get killed when their parents back
over them.

Getting actually run OVER at that speed is absurd. You'd get knocked down at the most then roll out the way.

Kids have been killed when Ikea chest of drawers that haven't
been screwed to the wall have a drawer cascade onto them.

That's pathetic. How feeble are these kids?

I use the indicator to tell everyone which space I'm going into.

You'll still end up in jail when you run them over.

They were told where I was going

Yes.

but chose to try to commit suicide. Their fault, clear cut case.

The law will rule otherwise. Legally you arent entitled to just drive over
someone who happens to be where you are indicating you are going.

In spades with little kids.

Only if I deliberately continue. Just not seeing they were running stupidly towards me from behind another car isn't a deliberate act of running them down.

And nobody has ever had "reversing out of their drive" count against
them, as 90% of people do it.

Plenty who run over kids when backing
out of their drive do end up in court.

Funny I've never heard of such an occurrence.

Then you need to get out more.

Maybe you live somewhere worse than me with stupider people.

Nope, ours are much smarter than you lot, their
ancestors left that soggy little frigid island long ago.

Yet they haven't learnt what a car is yet?

That little kid that stuck his head out over the edge of the
platform where the train engine would be in a seconds
clearly knew what a train is and did that anyway.

Is he in the special class at school?

Only the odd bicycle or dog.

That's because all those obese scottish kids are either veging
out in front of the TV or are playing video games etc.

No, they look where they're going.

Must be why so many of them get run over.

Funny how I've never heard of one incidence of this.

Then you need to get out more.

Perhaps I just live somewhere where kids aren't that stupid?

I'd say they were equally careful as adults.

More fool you.

It is my observation, so is therefore correct.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

1st hand experience is the most reliable.

There is a third reason, but that is infrequent: I can couple up
my
trailer whilst on the drive and then set off, instead of having
to
park on the road and drag it out by hand.

You can't reverse a trailer? I've hooked up a trailer quite a few
times
and simply reversed out of my drive.

There isn't space to get the trailer around the car until the car
is
off
the drive. Right way round I can couple it on first.

Ah, depends where you store your trailer I guess.

Most don't have a lot of choice on that.

But since it's infrequent, why not just reverse in when you need the
trailer?

You don't always know when you will be needing it.

I normally don't. I see something listed in a facebook buy
sell swap group that I decide I want that needs a trailer
and didn't know that when I drove the car in last time.

Easy enough to turn the car round for that odd occasion.

More convenient to not have to.

ODD OCCASION.

MORE CONVENIENT TO NOT HAVE TO.

Inconvenience x oftenness = if it's worthwhile preventing it.

Eg. my lawnmower fails to start 1 in 1000 times.
My lawnmower fails to start 1 in 2 times.
Same problem, different likelihood. Only the second would make me fix the
mower.

Most of us who have a trailer use it a lot more
than 1 in 10K times they drive into the driveway.

I said 1000 times. And most people with a trailer use it maybe twice a year on holiday, and another twice a year for taking something to the skip.

As to reversing, it depends what you are towing - a caravan is
easy,
a
very small camping trailer is harder, because as it turns to one
side,
you can't see it at all because it is too low and narrow and it is
already at a severe angle before it comes into view. As it happens,
my
trailer is just tall enough to see, so not a problem.

You can't see a small trailer?

Yep, plenty are too low to see out the back window of most cars.

You've got a rear window and 3 mirrors, you must be able to find it
somewhere.

Not until its later than you need to when backing.

Mirrors are slower?!

Nope,. the trailer isnt visible in the mirrors until it is too late to
correct its turning.

Even if it's lower than the back window (and I see no point in a
trailer
that small, just get a roofrack),

Useless for a fridge, freezer, washing machine, dishwasher
etc etc etc. And mine is a bigger than average trailer,
7'x5' instead of the much more common 6'x4' and is
still too low to see out the back window so a real
problem when backing up the driveway.

You can put all those in the boot,

Nope.

and I have done. Even a full size commercial chest freezer in a
hatchback.

Cant put my full sized upright fridge or freezer in any hatchback
and they need to be upright when moving them anyway.

No they don't. I've just laid mine down.

Not even possible to get a full sized fridge or upright freezer in a
Golf.

I have done.

Not even possible. The back door isnt wide enough.

Yet I managed just fine.

If you fold the back seats completely, it's quite high in the back. And
certainly more than wide enough for an appliance. Anything bigger than
the back of a golf would need quite a large trailer,

Bull****. The trailer only needs to be big enough
to contain the base of the fridge/upright freezer.

So you'd drive along with the thing upright, raising the centre of gravity considerably?

then you'd easily see it.

Wrong, as always with the lower ones.

When the fridge is in it it's pretty high.

you can see the arse end of it.

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

Think about the angle from your eye to the bottom of the back window.

Don't need to think about it, I know I can't see it.

Thanks for proving you must be really short.

I'm not.

Well I don't have a problem reversing with a trailer and you do.

Because my trailer is lower than yours.

I don't have one but I borrow my neighbour's. It's the lowest trailer you can get. The sides are only a foot high.

--
I don't approve of political jokes. I've seen too many of them get elected.

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:38:40 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 13:16:23 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 05:40:12 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 01:18:19 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 00:50:38 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 21/07/2016 00:09, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:50:53 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 20/07/2016 23:25, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:10 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 22:07, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 21:52:01 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 19:39, Bod wrote:
On 19/07/2016 19:34, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:21:53 +0100,
wrote:

On Tuesday, 19 July 2016 18:05:52 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
wrote:

Nobody ever parks right next to a wall. You need to
open
the
doors. A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWHYBi7kG8

Brilliant!

I see unlike some showoffs he didn't try to reverse in.

Oh dear! Intelligent drivers reverse into a parking
space.

Not if they wish to access the boot they don't. For
instance,
there's no
point in reversing into a space at a supermarket, where you
then
can't
get the trolley to the boot.

Same percentage if you look at driveways.

I always reverse onto our drive, unless I specifically want
the
car
the
other way round to work on it.

Do you have a valid reason for this? Do you just like showing
off
to
your neighbours?

Two related reasons:

1) It is easier to see approaching pedestrians and vehicles
when
driving
out forwards.

No it isn't. Try turning round.

There is less of the car sticking out of the drive before you can
see
clearly to each side, as in most cars, you are sat nearer the
front.

You're actually sat at the central pillar,

Nope, well in front of it.

You must sit in a funny position.

Nope, same place everyone else does.

Are you really short?

Nope.

Hint - the seatbelt is attached to the central pillar. The seatbelt
comes
from there directly across to your shoulder.

And it can only do that if you sit in front of the central pillar.

No.

Yep.

The seatbelt is anchored immediately to the right of your shoulder.

Wrong.

It doesn't come forwards to get to you.

Wrong.

If your car is different, you must have the seat pulled really far
forwards, you must have short legs.

Wrong.

I know I sit in my car with the pillar directly to the right of my head.

which is called central for a reason.

It isnt actually central with most cars.

Is too.

Nope, quite off center in most cars.

Behind it is one row of seats and the boot.

Not with all cars with the row of seats.

In front is one row of eats and the bonnet.

But isnt in the center in a front to back line with most cars.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ssel dorf.jpg

Just the one car, stupid. Even you should have noticed that
there is a lot more car in front of that pillar than behind it.

Yip, my point exactly, have you forgotten what the discussion was about?
Your side of the argument was reversing out is more dangerous because of
more car in front of you, yet you've just admitted there is LESS car in
front of you when reversing.

Look at the drivers seat (on the left, it's a foreign car). The seat
back
is placed just behind the central pillar, so the driver will have his
head
right next to the central pillar.

Now look at the nearest side to us - the pillar is clearly nearer the
BACK
than the front,

So it isnt a central pillar in anything other than the name.

But you seem to think it's closer to the front. It's actually closer to
the back, making reversing safer than going forwards.

so there's clearly less car sticking out when reversing out,

Pity that you can see far less of what is beside the
back of the car when looking over your shoulder.

Why would that be?

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

I face towards the middle of the back window.

Your face is never square to the back window and you certainly
can't turn it equally in either direction like you can when driving
out of the driveway with the front of the car coming out first.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

Dont have to do anything like that when driving out normally
and can turn your head equally in both directions when driving
out normally and can't when backing out.

Exactly the same as when looking forwards.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Why do you continually cut my replies into pieces and reply to every
single sentence?

Because its better to point out where each bit is wrong.

It just ends up with the same point being made 5 times in a row.

Everyone can see for themselves that that is a bare faced lie.

Young children and animals can easily be hidden by a fence or
hedge until the last moment as they cross the end of your drive -
you have a far better chance of seeing them in time when driving
out forwards because of both of these.

Except you don't.

But he does with the trailer.

If a pedestrian walks across a drive, he should see and hear
vehicles
coming.

But kids and animals don't necessarily get out of the road what
is coming even if they do notice that something is coming.

More fool them, the gene pool needs cleaning.

With you in jail where you can't breed.

If what you say is true I can just claim I couldn't see.

You'll still get jailed for running over the kid.

Nope,

Yep.

it can be the kid's fault you know.

Not when it is not on the road.

Or probably the parent's, even though they weren't there.

It can't be the parents' fault if they arent there.

Anyway, easy enough to reverse out at 2mph so you won't damage them.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Do you really think a 2mph car can hurt a kid?

Plenty of little kids get killed when someone backs over them
in the driveway because they didnt realise the little kid was there.

Well that'll make the next generation a bit more careful then.

Nope. Evolution doesnt work like that with humans.

We've just had the railway station surveillance camera footage of
one little kid that must have been about 5 on the station platform
with a ****ing great coal train coming down the line who actually
leaned right over the edge of the platform with his head in where
the engine would be with the kid only about 3 feet in front of the
engine.

Cool! Link?

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/plus7/survei...n-4-episode-2/
Not clear if your can watch it from there, you may need to use a VPN.

Tried 5 Aussie proxies and none of them fooled the site. "Not available
in your location".

Interesting.

Strange.

True, they must have a pretty decent system for working out where you are.

A proxy should make it appear to the web server that you are in that
country. The webserver should see a browser on the IP of the proxy.

Plenty of sites use a lot more than just the IP now.

That kid needs removing from the gene pool.

Didnt happen.

Presumably some bugger saved him.

Nope, he pulled his head back over the platform before
the front of the engine got to where his head was.

Quick reactions then.

Not reactions so much as he always intended to do that.

And then ran across the road outside the station and
was lucky there were no cars coming at the time.

And gross stupidity.

It was a pedestrian crossing.

Going to be interesting to see how long he survives for.

Indeed.

2) The Highway Code tells drivers to reverse in because of
reason
1.

That is not a reason to do anything.

Failing to follow the highway code can count against you if you
end
up
in court following an accident.

You don't go to court because your neighbour's dog wasn't paying
attention.

But you will if it's a child.

Children are stupid.

Yes, and that is why you need to be particularly
careful that you don't run over them.

And they have much more tunnel vision than adults too.

You've claimed that before, but I didn't when I was younger.

Everyone does.

No they don't.

Yes they do. That has been studied for many years now.

Show me 3 conclusive properly done studies.

Go and find them for yourself.

We used to test it in primary school as part of some lesson or other.
Mine was over a bit over 180 degrees (same as it still is), the average
was 180 degrees.

You ****ed that up.

Nope, it was definitely more than directly to my right.

Doesnt mean they could all see 180 degrees.

If I had tunnel vision as a kid I would remember it.

Wrong. They dont even notice it.

If they walk in front of moving vehicles you can only blame them (or
nowadays the parents).

Yes, but it still makes sense to drive in the way that
provides maximum visibility of them so you don't
run over them when they do something stupid.

When parking in a normal carpark, I don't even drive into
a slot when there are kids standing to the side, because
they can do something stupid as you drive into the slot.

If they get in my way it's their problem not mine.

It will be when you end up in jail.

Nope, I'd have been driving into an empty space.

You were driving into a parking place where there
were kids standing next to the car in the next space.

And since they were standing still when I drove in, any movement by them
after I'm going towards them is their own stupidity.

The law says otherwise with children.

Running in front of a car makes it your fault.

The kid didnt run.

Run, cycle, jump, whatever.

They didnt do any of that.

And at car park speeds, they can't get more than a bruise.

Must be why some kids get killed when their parents back
over them.

Getting actually run OVER at that speed is absurd. You'd get knocked down
at the most then roll out the way.

Must be why some kids get killed when their parents back over them.

Kids have been killed when Ikea chest of drawers that haven't
been screwed to the wall have a drawer cascade onto them.

That's pathetic. How feeble are these kids?

Not feeble at all. Some have been killed by pulling TVs down on themselves
too.

I use the indicator to tell everyone which space I'm going into.

You'll still end up in jail when you run them over.

They were told where I was going

Yes.

but chose to try to commit suicide. Their fault, clear cut case.

The law will rule otherwise. Legally you arent entitled to just drive
over
someone who happens to be where you are indicating you are going.

In spades with little kids.

Only if I deliberately continue. Just not seeing they were running
stupidly towards me from behind another car isn't a deliberate act of
running them down.

We arent talking about running or even walking.

And nobody has ever had "reversing out of their drive" count
against
them, as 90% of people do it.

Plenty who run over kids when backing
out of their drive do end up in court.

Funny I've never heard of such an occurrence.

Then you need to get out more.

Maybe you live somewhere worse than me with stupider people.

Nope, ours are much smarter than you lot, their
ancestors left that soggy little frigid island long ago.

Yet they haven't learnt what a car is yet?

That little kid that stuck his head out over the edge of the
platform where the train engine would be in a seconds
clearly knew what a train is and did that anyway.

Is he in the special class at school?

They didnt say and presumably dont even know what his
name is. It was surveillance footage in the train station.

None of the staff showed up and fronted his mother who
was in the dunny at the time. Him and his two older brothers
were rampaging around by themselves with their mum in the
dunny with another in a push chair thing.

Only the odd bicycle or dog.

That's because all those obese scottish kids are either veging
out in front of the TV or are playing video games etc.

No, they look where they're going.

Must be why so many of them get run over.

Funny how I've never heard of one incidence of this.

Then you need to get out more.

Perhaps I just live somewhere where kids aren't that stupid?

We know you lot are too stupid to move from there.

I'd say they were equally careful as adults.

More fool you.

It is my observation, so is therefore correct.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

1st hand experience is the most reliable.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

There is a third reason, but that is infrequent: I can couple
up
my
trailer whilst on the drive and then set off, instead of having
to
park on the road and drag it out by hand.

You can't reverse a trailer? I've hooked up a trailer quite a
few
times
and simply reversed out of my drive.

There isn't space to get the trailer around the car until the car
is
off
the drive. Right way round I can couple it on first.

Ah, depends where you store your trailer I guess.

Most don't have a lot of choice on that.

But since it's infrequent, why not just reverse in when you need
the
trailer?

You don't always know when you will be needing it.

I normally don't. I see something listed in a facebook buy
sell swap group that I decide I want that needs a trailer
and didn't know that when I drove the car in last time.

Easy enough to turn the car round for that odd occasion.

More convenient to not have to.

ODD OCCASION.

MORE CONVENIENT TO NOT HAVE TO.

Inconvenience x oftenness = if it's worthwhile preventing it.

Eg. my lawnmower fails to start 1 in 1000 times.
My lawnmower fails to start 1 in 2 times.
Same problem, different likelihood. Only the second would make me fix
the
mower.

Most of us who have a trailer use it a lot more
than 1 in 10K times they drive into the driveway.

I said 1000 times.

Most of us who have a trailer use it a lot more
than 1 in 1000 times they drive into the driveway.

And most people with a trailer use it maybe twice a year on holiday, and
another twice a year for taking something to the skip.

Those numbers are straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.

And even if they were accurate at is a lot more often than 1 in 1000 uses
of the driveway.

As to reversing, it depends what you are towing - a caravan is
easy,
a
very small camping trailer is harder, because as it turns to one
side,
you can't see it at all because it is too low and narrow and it
is
already at a severe angle before it comes into view. As it
happens,
my
trailer is just tall enough to see, so not a problem.

You can't see a small trailer?

Yep, plenty are too low to see out the back window of most cars.

You've got a rear window and 3 mirrors, you must be able to find
it
somewhere.

Not until its later than you need to when backing.

Mirrors are slower?!

Nope,. the trailer isnt visible in the mirrors until it is too late
to
correct its turning.

Even if it's lower than the back window (and I see no point in a
trailer
that small, just get a roofrack),

Useless for a fridge, freezer, washing machine, dishwasher
etc etc etc. And mine is a bigger than average trailer,
7'x5' instead of the much more common 6'x4' and is
still too low to see out the back window so a real
problem when backing up the driveway.

You can put all those in the boot,

Nope.

and I have done. Even a full size commercial chest freezer in a
hatchback.

Cant put my full sized upright fridge or freezer in any hatchback
and they need to be upright when moving them anyway.

No they don't. I've just laid mine down.

Not even possible to get a full sized fridge or upright freezer in a
Golf.

I have done.

Not even possible. The back door isnt wide enough.

Yet I managed just fine.

It wasnt a full sized fridge.

If you fold the back seats completely, it's quite high in the back. And
certainly more than wide enough for an appliance. Anything bigger than
the back of a golf would need quite a large trailer,

Bull****. The trailer only needs to be big enough
to contain the base of the fridge/upright freezer.

So you'd drive along with the thing upright,

Yep.

raising the centre of gravity considerably?

Works fine.

then you'd easily see it.

Wrong, as always with the lower ones.

When the fridge is in it it's pretty high.

Pity that the fridge isnt in it when backing out
of the driveway when you are going to get it.

you can see the arse end of it.

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

Think about the angle from your eye to the bottom of the back
window.

Don't need to think about it, I know I can't see it.

Thanks for proving you must be really short.

I'm not.

Well I don't have a problem reversing with a trailer and you do.

Because my trailer is lower than yours.

I don't have one but I borrow my neighbour's. It's the lowest trailer you
can get. The sides are only a foot high.

They dont all have the tray at the same height
and you can get them with no sides at all too.

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do you
seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner? I'm
surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has the
advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides (through
the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing a
van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the kerb
between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my wife to
fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your back
left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door mirror
for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the rear wheel
and kerb instead.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of my
car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically when
you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my car is
older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as you are about
to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then remember to set it
back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore blind
that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow him to
reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the adjacent
lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be very convex. He
also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in relation to a kerb,
without needing to keep looking in the door mirror as he reversed to
determine when to straighten up while parallel parking. I'm not sure whether
he was super-human :-)

On 26/07/2016 21:02, NY wrote:
"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner?
I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my
wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door
mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the
rear wheel and kerb instead.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of
my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow
him to reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the
adjacent lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be
very convex. He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in
relation to a kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror
as he reversed to determine when to straighten up while parallel
parking. I'm not sure whether he was super-human :-)

If you parallel park frequently you can do it perfectly pretty well
every time, not using the mirrors at all for positioning and end up with
the car exactly where you want it. When I still lived at my parents, I
was in and out all the time and typically parallel parked at least 2 or
3 times a day. I could do it without thinking about it. These days, with
my own driveway, the need is far less frequent, so am out of practice
and I have to think about it and more often have to make corrections.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:19:41 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 26/07/2016 21:02, NY wrote:
"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner?
I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my
wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door
mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the
rear wheel and kerb instead.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of
my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow
him to reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the
adjacent lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be
very convex. He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in
relation to a kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror
as he reversed to determine when to straighten up while parallel
parking. I'm not sure whether he was super-human :-)

If you parallel park frequently you can do it perfectly pretty well
every time, not using the mirrors at all for positioning and end up with
the car exactly where you want it. When I still lived at my parents, I
was in and out all the time and typically parallel parked at least 2 or
3 times a day. I could do it without thinking about it. These days, with
my own driveway, the need is far less frequent, so am out of practice
and I have to think about it and more often have to make corrections.

Try doing it without power steering.

--
TV takes over your life when you could be doing useful things like smoking crack and stealing car stereos.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
If you parallel park frequently you can do it perfectly pretty well every
time, not using the mirrors at all for positioning and end up with the car
exactly where you want it. When I still lived at my parents, I was in and
out all the time and typically parallel parked at least 2 or 3 times a
day.

Maybe I'm one of those people who isn't very good at learning to estimate
and to judge, and who always has to do things by measurement or by comparing
by sight.

I reverse into our drive whenever I get home (so I do it at least once a
day) and I always need to check my position in the mirrors and make any
correction as I get close because I rarely do it the same twice. I can get
fairly close without looking, but to do the last few centimetres without
hitting the kerb or leaving a large gap needs feedback and comparison.

Some people (eg my wife) can look at a quantity of something (eg a pile of
potatoes of various sizes) and judge by eye when she's got the right amount.
I can't see one big potato and work out how many medium and tiny potatoes I
need to add to it to get enough for our dinner - I always have to use the
scales.

Likewise with adding flour, sugar, marg to a cake - she doesn't need to use
scales to get the weight correct (*). And she's a human ruler - she can look
at two objects or pick up two objects one after the other (not next to each
other) and say with confidence which one is slightly larger/heavier than the
other. And she can't work out why I can't do the same.

This is probably part of the same skill - to judge something by eye without
always having to resort to measurement or side-by-side comparison.



(*) Mind you, she does comment that some cakes are better than others, and I
refrain from pointing out that if she measured everything and set the oven
timer rather than saying "that's had long enough", she'd get much more
reproducible results :-)

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:02:54 +0100, NY wrote:

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do you
seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner? I'm
surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has the
advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides (through
the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing a
van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the kerb
between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my wife to
fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your back
left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door mirror
for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the rear wheel
and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance, and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do you not have spatial awareness?

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of my
car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically when
you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my car is
older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as you are about
to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then remember to set it
back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore blind
that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow him to
reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the adjacent
lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be very convex. He
also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in relation to a kerb,
without needing to keep looking in the door mirror as he reversed to
determine when to straighten up while parallel parking. I'm not sure whether
he was super-human :-)

I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs. You can see the kerb just behind your back wheel (which is the important part), while having the mirror face approx horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not the mirrors that were unusual.

--
Can you grow birds by planting birdseed?

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
Try doing it without power steering.

It's not the presence of power steering, it's knowing how far to turn the
wheel (and when to straighten up), irrespective of how easy it is to turn
the wheel.

Thinking of "no power steering"... Try driving a car with power steering
when the power steering has failed - it's a *lot* harder than driving a car
that doesn't have power steering fitted in the first place, as I found out
when the fan belt broke on my car at motorway speed which stopped the PS
pump from working. It took a lot of effort to move the wheel from straight
ahead when changing lanes, negotiating curves or leaving the motorway and
going round roundabouts.

I presume that cars with PS have the steering geometry modified to give
greater feedback and self-centring of the wheels, which gives innately
heavier steering that is then compensated for with the power assistance.
Compressing the fluid in the pipes when you move the steering rack probably
doesn't help, either, when there's no pump to push that fluid in the
required direction.

On 26/07/16 21:53, NY wrote:
I presume that cars with PS have the steering geometry modified to give
greater feedback and self-centring of the wheels,
No, they have higher ratio racks/steering boxes.


--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs. You can see the kerb just behind
your back wheel (which is the important part), while having the mirror
face approx horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not
the mirrors that were unusual.

With the mirrors set so I can see cars many feet behind so I can see when to
pull in after overtaking, I can see the line of the kerb many feet behind
the back of the car, but I evidently *don't* have the spatial awareness to
be able to project that imaginary line *to the accuracy of +/- a centimetre
or so* and imagine where that line would be in relation to bottom edge of
the door window (and hence by some known offset to where the wheels would
be).

In a car park, it's easy because I line up equidistant between the lines of
the space in front (or the lines of my own space while I'm still still far
enough away to see them) and then keep the steering the same once the lines
have disappeared, and accuracy isn't so important. But when I'm parking
against a solid object like a kerb and need to be as close as possible
without touching to avoid sticking out into the road or so as to maximise
the space for another car alongside, I need more than memory and projection
of something that I can no longer see.

So for me when parking against a kerb, I *always* need to drop the mirror on
that side to see how far the tyre is from the kerb and adjust till it's just
right - once it's disappeared from my field of view, I'm lost.


It might explain why I found it very difficult to catch a ball in school
games lessons because it moved too fast to be able to see its position in
relation to my hands - that needs spatial awareness and prediction.

I remember going on a course which taught various driving skills skid pan,
high-speed cornering - and to learn how to reverse a trailer. And I was the
only one in the class who never even managed to reverse the trailer in a
straight line (it always veered irretrievably one way or the other), never
mind being able to reverse it round a corner into a narrow gap. I remember
the guy getting a bit frustrated at the amount of time he was having to
devote to me, but hew said it was probably that I couldn't mentally adjust
for having to steer in the opposite direction to normal - I knew the
principle of that but couldn't judge by how much.

James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do you
seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner? I'm
surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the
advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides (through
the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing a
van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my
wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door
mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the
rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do you
not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of my
car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically when
you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my car is
older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as you are
about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then remember
to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore blind
that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow him to
reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the adjacent
lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be very convex.
He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in relation to a
kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror as he reversed
to determine when to straighten up while parallel parking. I'm not sure
whether he was super-human :-)

I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs.

I don't either.

You can see the kerb just behind your back wheel

Nope.

(which is the important part), while having the mirror face approx
horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not the mirrors
that were unusual.

You are actually parking the way I listed above.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/07/16 21:53, NY wrote:
I presume that cars with PS have the steering geometry modified to give
greater feedback and self-centring of the wheels,
No, they have higher ratio racks/steering boxes.

Oh, do they? So turning the steering wheel by x degrees in a PS car will
move the steering wheels more than in a non-PS car. Interesting that I once
drove two models of the same car one after the other to compare with/without
PS (when deciding whether to pay extra for a car with it fitted) and I
wasn't aware of having to make smaller movements of the wheel in the PS car
to keep the car straight or to follow a curve. That's why I thought it was a
difference in geometry (different castor angle etc) that PS made possible
which caused the heavier unassisted steering.

I was wrong!

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as foolish,
and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

Wise chap, that Seneca bloke. Talks my language :-)

On 26/07/2016 21:32, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:19:41 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 26/07/2016 21:02, NY wrote:
"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner?
I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my
wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door
mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the
rear wheel and kerb instead.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of
my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow
him to reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the
adjacent lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be
very convex. He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in
relation to a kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror
as he reversed to determine when to straighten up while parallel
parking. I'm not sure whether he was super-human :-)

If you parallel park frequently you can do it perfectly pretty well
every time, not using the mirrors at all for positioning and end up with
the car exactly where you want it. When I still lived at my parents, I
was in and out all the time and typically parallel parked at least 2 or
3 times a day. I could do it without thinking about it. These days, with
my own driveway, the need is far less frequent, so am out of practice
and I have to think about it and more often have to make corrections.

Try doing it without power steering.

I've had a number of cars without power steering (I've still got one)
and others with (the other two at the moment have it).

On 26/07/16 22:21, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/07/16 21:53, NY wrote:
I presume that cars with PS have the steering geometry modified to give
greater feedback and self-centring of the wheels,
No, they have higher ratio racks/steering boxes.

Oh, do they? So turning the steering wheel by x degrees in a PS car will
move the steering wheels more than in a non-PS car. Interesting that I
once drove two models of the same car one after the other to compare
with/without PS (when deciding whether to pay extra for a car with it
fitted) and I wasn't aware of having to make smaller movements of the
wheel in the PS car to keep the car straight or to follow a curve.
That's why I thought it was a difference in geometry (different castor
angle etc) that PS made possible which caused the heavier unassisted
steering.


it might be that yu were having to move the defunct PS steering kit.

But you wont see steering geometry compromised for PS or otherwise.

I was wrong!

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

Wise chap, that Seneca bloke. Talks my language :-)


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 26/07/2016 22:21, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/07/16 21:53, NY wrote:
I presume that cars with PS have the steering geometry modified to give
greater feedback and self-centring of the wheels,
No, they have higher ratio racks/steering boxes.

Oh, do they? So turning the steering wheel by x degrees in a PS car will
move the steering wheels more than in a non-PS car. Interesting that I
once drove two models of the same car one after the other to compare
with/without PS (when deciding whether to pay extra for a car with it
fitted) and I wasn't aware of having to make smaller movements of the
wheel in the PS car to keep the car straight or to follow a curve.
That's why I thought it was a difference in geometry (different castor
angle etc) that PS made possible which caused the heavier unassisted
steering.

IIRC Ford Sierras used to be 3.5 turns lock to lock unassisted or 2.5
turns assisted.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:53:36 +0100, NY wrote:

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
Try doing it without power steering.

It's not the presence of power steering, it's knowing how far to turn the
wheel (and when to straighten up), irrespective of how easy it is to turn
the wheel.

And being hampered by a stiff wheel reduces your accuracy. And the speed at which you can turn it.

Thinking of "no power steering"... Try driving a car with power steering
when the power steering has failed - it's a *lot* harder than driving a car
that doesn't have power steering fitted in the first place, as I found out
when the fan belt broke on my car at motorway speed which stopped the PS
pump from working. It took a lot of effort to move the wheel from straight
ahead when changing lanes, negotiating curves or leaving the motorway and
going round roundabouts.

I didn't find that, although while it was in the process of failing it was unpredictable. Sometimes it pushed along with me, sometimes it didn't.

And how did you drive that far with no fan belt? Didn't you lose the water pump?

I presume that cars with PS have the steering geometry modified to give
greater feedback and self-centring of the wheels, which gives innately
heavier steering that is then compensated for with the power assistance.
Compressing the fluid in the pipes when you move the steering rack probably
doesn't help, either, when there's no pump to push that fluid in the
required direction.


--
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch.

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
And how did you drive that far with no fan belt? Didn't you lose the
water pump?

I was lucky that it happened about a mile before the junction where I was
aiming to come off the motorway, and I remembered that a mile after that was
a garage where I could pull off the road and wait for the RAC to arrive and
tow me home (*). The following morning I drove from there to my local garage
(about 1/4 mile) for them to repair it.

I didn't think about the water pump: I knew that the alternator had failed
because the ignition light came on and I guessed that the PS must be driven
by the fan belt since the steering went very heavy. I wonder whether on that
car (Peugeot 306) the water pump is driven by the cambelt rather than the
fan belt; I know on my present Pug 308 it is, because I was advised to have
the water pump changed when I had the cambelt changed at 120,000 miles, on
the grounds that even if it was working perfectly, it would be annoying to
have to pay the large labour bill for exposing the cambelt to change the
water pump all over again.

What did **** me off about the fan belt was the the garage simply replaced
the fan belt without looking to see why it had broken, so the new one failed
after only about 5000 miles because one of the pulleys had become mis-shapen
or mis-aligned: that had *caused* the first belt (and the second one!) to
fail; the first one probably hadn't failed due simply to old age. And the
second time it happened I was about 1/2 hour into a 4-hour journey late at
night, so I had to turn round and come back, and then get the car to a
different garage to get it repaired *properly*. Needless to say, the garage
that did the first repair denied all responsibility, even when I showed them
the report from the Pug garage. They lost my custom for all future work,
though.


(*) Sod's Law was operating that night. The RAC truck that was towing me
front-wheels-up developed a puncture in the trailer that was supporting the
front end of my car, so the guy had to unload my car, repair the puncture
and re-load my car before continuing home.

On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 21:38:47 +0100, NY wrote:

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
And how did you drive that far with no fan belt? Didn't you lose the
water pump?

I was lucky that it happened about a mile before the junction where I was
aiming to come off the motorway, and I remembered that a mile after that was
a garage where I could pull off the road and wait for the RAC to arrive and
tow me home (*). The following morning I drove from there to my local garage
(about 1/4 mile) for them to repair it.

Uh.... RAC will pick you up from the hard shoulder.

I didn't think about the water pump: I knew that the alternator had failed
because the ignition light came on and I guessed that the PS must be driven
by the fan belt since the steering went very heavy. I wonder whether on that
car (Peugeot 306) the water pump is driven by the cambelt rather than the
fan belt; I know on my present Pug 308 it is, because I was advised to have
the water pump changed when I had the cambelt changed at 120,000 miles, on
the grounds that even if it was working perfectly, it would be annoying to
have to pay the large labour bill for exposing the cambelt to change the
water pump all over again.

If the waterpump fails, the temperature goes up very quickly indeed, you couldn't drive for more than 30 seconds to a minute before breaking the engine.

And engines are terrible for getting hot, you do it about twice and they're ****ed. You get a slight leak in a gasket without realising, then water gets in the cylinders and it's had it. They really should design ECUs to shut off the fuel immediately the engine overheats even slightly.

What did **** me off about the fan belt was the the garage simply replaced
the fan belt without looking to see why it had broken, so the new one failed
after only about 5000 miles because one of the pulleys had become mis-shapen
or mis-aligned: that had *caused* the first belt (and the second one!) to
fail; the first one probably hadn't failed due simply to old age. And the
second time it happened I was about 1/2 hour into a 4-hour journey late at
night, so I had to turn round and come back, and then get the car to a
different garage to get it repaired *properly*. Needless to say, the garage
that did the first repair denied all responsibility, even when I showed them
the report from the Pug garage. They lost my custom for all future work,
though.


(*) Sod's Law was operating that night. The RAC truck that was towing me
front-wheels-up developed a puncture in the trailer that was supporting the
front end of my car, so the guy had to unload my car, repair the puncture
and re-load my car before continuing home.

I once ran out of LPG in a Range Rover that refused to run on petrol anymore, 500 yards before a petrol station, uphill. And you can't put LPG in a jerry can. The AA guy thought it was funny. He put me on the back of a truck, towed me just up the road, and I filled it and started it on the back of the truck to make sure it was worth taking it off.

--
If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is that person considered a hostage situation?

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 22:25:16 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 26/07/2016 21:32, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:19:41 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 26/07/2016 21:02, NY wrote:
"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner?
I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my
wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door
mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the
rear wheel and kerb instead.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of
my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow
him to reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the
adjacent lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be
very convex. He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in
relation to a kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror
as he reversed to determine when to straighten up while parallel
parking. I'm not sure whether he was super-human :-)

If you parallel park frequently you can do it perfectly pretty well
every time, not using the mirrors at all for positioning and end up with
the car exactly where you want it. When I still lived at my parents, I
was in and out all the time and typically parallel parked at least 2 or
3 times a day. I could do it without thinking about it. These days, with
my own driveway, the need is far less frequent, so am out of practice
and I have to think about it and more often have to make corrections.

Try doing it without power steering.

I've had a number of cars without power steering (I've still got one)
and others with (the other two at the moment have it).

Without power steering it takes ages to get to full lock, so much so that I deliberately avoid tight parking spaces.

--
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus (341- 270 BC)

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 22:15:30 +0100, NY wrote:

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs. You can see the kerb just behind
your back wheel (which is the important part), while having the mirror
face approx horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not
the mirrors that were unusual.

With the mirrors set so I can see cars many feet behind so I can see when to
pull in after overtaking, I can see the line of the kerb many feet behind
the back of the car, but I evidently *don't* have the spatial awareness to
be able to project that imaginary line *to the accuracy of +/- a centimetre
or so* and imagine where that line would be in relation to bottom edge of
the door window (and hence by some known offset to where the wheels would
be).

Why do you need a cm or so? I'm not embarrassed unless I parallel park about a foot off the kerb.

In a car park, it's easy because I line up equidistant between the lines of
the space in front (or the lines of my own space while I'm still still far
enough away to see them) and then keep the steering the same once the lines
have disappeared, and accuracy isn't so important. But when I'm parking
against a solid object like a kerb and need to be as close as possible
without touching to avoid sticking out into the road or so as to maximise
the space for another car alongside, I need more than memory and projection
of something that I can no longer see.

My mirrors show me the kerb just behind the back of the car, which is fine.

So for me when parking against a kerb, I *always* need to drop the mirror on
that side to see how far the tyre is from the kerb and adjust till it's just
right - once it's disappeared from my field of view, I'm lost.

Just move your head a bit. Since your head is much closer to the mirror than the kerb you're trying to see, a small movement of your head makes you see a much different angle to the kerb.

It might explain why I found it very difficult to catch a ball in school
games lessons because it moved too fast to be able to see its position in
relation to my hands - that needs spatial awareness and prediction.

I'm **** at that too, but I'm not reversing at ball throwing speed.

I remember going on a course which taught various driving skills skid pan,
high-speed cornering - and to learn how to reverse a trailer. And I was the
only one in the class who never even managed to reverse the trailer in a
straight line (it always veered irretrievably one way or the other), never
mind being able to reverse it round a corner into a narrow gap.

The only problem is if there's a wall so you can't correct it one way. So you need to plan ahead and keep it very straight and well away from objects so you have the room to move the car either way to move the trailer the other way.

I remember
the guy getting a bit frustrated at the amount of time he was having to
devote to me, but hew said it was probably that I couldn't mentally adjust
for having to steer in the opposite direction to normal - I knew the
principle of that but couldn't judge by how much.

I don't see why people have that problem. Presumably if you're pushing a trailer by hand, you can move your hand to the right to cause the trailer to go left. So just move the back of the car the way you would move your hand. And reversing a car doesn't need any conscious swapping of direction, you move the top of the steering wheel in the direction the back of the car needs to go.

--
He was so unlucky . . .
Last week, his inflatable doll ran off with his airbag.

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news Why don't you **** off and find something useful to do?
We all realise your degree is useless but shirley you can find a street
cleaning job.
Ask your mentor Wodney, he's always full of ****^H^H^H^Hideas.

On 26/07/2016 21:53, NY wrote:
Thinking of "no power steering"... Try driving a car with power steering
when the power steering has failed - it's a *lot* harder than driving a
car that doesn't have power steering fitted in the first place, as I
found out when the fan belt broke on my car at motorway speed which
stopped the PS pump from working. It took a lot of effort to move the
wheel from straight ahead when changing lanes, negotiating curves or
leaving the motorway and going round roundabouts.

Mine is not the only car with speed sensitive power steering. Basically
it turns off when at any speed. It did fail once, and once I was out of
the car park it wasn't an issue.

Andy

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 22:16:35 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do you
seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner? I'm
surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the
advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides (through
the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing a
van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat (and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for my
wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your door
mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows the
rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

The car doesn't obstruct the view of the kerb, just like cars behind you on the motorway don't obstruct your view of the next lane.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do you
not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

Useless, every car steers differently and is a different size. And mechanical memory isn't accurate enough, you need to watch where you're going. I start in the same place (2 feet to the right of the car in front of the space), then turn the wheel almost fully while reversing, then from then on watch where I'm going.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of my
car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically when
you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my car is
older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as you are
about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then remember
to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore blind
that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow him to
reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the adjacent
lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be very convex.
He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in relation to a
kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror as he reversed
to determine when to straighten up while parallel parking. I'm not sure
whether he was super-human :-)

I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs.

I don't either.

You can see the kerb just behind your back wheel

Nope.

Yip. Move your head up and down a few inches, and you see a vastly different image in the mirror, due to the ratio between the distance between you and the mirror, and the kerb and the mirror.

(which is the important part), while having the mirror face approx
horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not the mirrors
that were unusual.

You are actually parking the way I listed above.

I'm watching the kerb, you said you can't see it.

--
Years ago it was suggested that, "An apple a day keeps the doctor away."
But, since all the doctors are now Muslim, I've found that a bacon sandwich works great!

James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner?
I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat
(and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for
my wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your
door mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows
the rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

The car doesn't obstruct the view of the kerb,

Yes it does when you are backing in and are at an angle to
the kerb, deciding when to turn the wheel so you end up
at the right distance from the kerb when you are stopped.

just like cars behind you on the motorway don't obstruct your view of the
next lane.

That is completely different. You are looking at the cars in
the next lane and your car is parallel to the other cars too.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do you
not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

Useless, every car steers differently and is a different size.

Nope, you get used to what a particular car does.

And mechanical memory isn't accurate enough,

Yes it is with some practice.

you need to watch where you're going.

Only with where you stop next to the car that will be in
front of you when you have backed into the parking spot.
You're navigating with respect to that, not to the kerb and
have checked how far it is out from the curb unconsciously
as you pull up beside it before starting to back in the slot.

I start in the same place (2 feet to the right of the car in front of the
space),

I got the kids to stop a bit closer to that
when teaching them to drive recently.

then turn the wheel almost fully while reversing,

The main mechanical memory is when you start
moving the wheel back again with the car at an angle
to the curb with the back of the car well in the slot
so you end up at the right distance from the kerb.

then from then on watch where I'm going.

Yes, but relative to the car that you stopped next to, not the kerb.

We had to open the passengers door to check how close
we ended up to the kerb once the car was stopped again.
I had both of the kids in the front seats and me in the back
with them swapping the front seats thru the teaching session
once they could drive adequately and just need to practice
parallel parking and 3 point turns etc.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of
my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow
him to reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the
adjacent
lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be very
convex.
He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in relation to
a
kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror as he reversed
to determine when to straighten up while parallel parking. I'm not sure
whether he was super-human :-)

I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs.

I don't either.

You can see the kerb just behind your back wheel

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

Move your head up and down a few inches, and you see a vastly different
image in the mirror, due to the ratio between the distance between you and
the mirror, and the kerb and the mirror.

Still never see the kerb just behind the back wheel.

That's why the kid in the passengers seat opened the
passenger door to check how close we had ended up
to the kerb if the car hadn't hit the kerb as it backed in.

(which is the important part), while having the mirror face approx
horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not the
mirrors that were unusual.

You are actually parking the way I listed above.

I'm watching the kerb,

You are actually using where the car that you stopped
beside to determine when to start turning the wheel
back again, even tho you don't realise that.

you said you can't see it.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 22:04:52 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back corner?
I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat
(and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to the
kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width for
my wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from your
back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use your
door mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it shows
the rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

The car doesn't obstruct the view of the kerb,

Yes it does when you are backing in and are at an angle to
the kerb, deciding when to turn the wheel so you end up
at the right distance from the kerb when you are stopped.

Why would the angle make any difference? The mirror sees what you would see were your head stuck out of the window and looking back along the side of the car.

just like cars behind you on the motorway don't obstruct your view of the
next lane.

That is completely different. You are looking at the cars in
the next lane and your car is parallel to the other cars too.

Are you looking in the wrong mirror or something? Observe this diagram:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb0a0fg0s7...rrors.jpg?dl=0
The arrows show what you are looking at using the wingmirror.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do you
not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

Useless, every car steers differently and is a different size.

Nope, you get used to what a particular car does.

Ok if you hardly ever change your car, have more than one, or drive anyone else's.

And mechanical memory isn't accurate enough,

Yes it is with some practice.

Easier just to watch what you're doing.

you need to watch where you're going.

Only with where you stop next to the car that will be in
front of you when you have backed into the parking spot.
You're navigating with respect to that, not to the kerb and
have checked how far it is out from the curb unconsciously
as you pull up beside it before starting to back in the slot.

Sounds far too complicated. I just drive towards the kerb I'm watching in the mirror.

I start in the same place (2 feet to the right of the car in front of the
space),

I got the kids to stop a bit closer to that
when teaching them to drive recently.

Trouble with that is you have less room for being slightly off when you're swinging the front round and the car in front will be in your way. Better to be a bit far from the kerb and shuffle in, than to hit the kerb and have to pull back out in the way of people.

then turn the wheel almost fully while reversing,

The main mechanical memory is when you start
moving the wheel back again with the car at an angle
to the curb with the back of the car well in the slot
so you end up at the right distance from the kerb.

No way I could ever do that so accurately. If what you're saying is true, you could close your eyes.

then from then on watch where I'm going.

Yes, but relative to the car that you stopped next to, not the kerb.

No, I watch all three things (the two cars and the kerb) as I want to miss all of them.

We had to open the passengers door to check how close
we ended up to the kerb once the car was stopped again.
I had both of the kids in the front seats and me in the back
with them swapping the front seats thru the teaching session
once they could drive adequately and just need to practice
parallel parking and 3 point turns etc.

Is that legal?

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides of
my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to allow
him to reverse next to a kerb while still being set to see cars in the
adjacent
lanes for normal driving, which suggests his mirrors must be very
convex.
He also said he could "judge" where the back wheels were in relation to
a
kerb, without needing to keep looking in the door mirror as he reversed
to determine when to straighten up while parallel parking. I'm not sure
whether he was super-human :-)

I don't adjust my mirrors to see kerbs.

I don't either.

You can see the kerb just behind your back wheel

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

Move your head up and down a few inches, and you see a vastly different
image in the mirror, due to the ratio between the distance between you and
the mirror, and the kerb and the mirror.

Still never see the kerb just behind the back wheel.

I do, on every car I've had. Go check.

That's why the kid in the passengers seat opened the
passenger door to check how close we had ended up
to the kerb if the car hadn't hit the kerb as it backed in.

No, that's because he isn't good enough at judging distances yet.

(which is the important part), while having the mirror face approx
horizontally. And that's on many different cars, so it's not the
mirrors that were unusual.

You are actually parking the way I listed above.

I'm watching the kerb,

You are actually using where the car that you stopped
beside to determine when to start turning the wheel
back again, even tho you don't realise that.

No, I start turning the wheel back again to avoid my back wheel hitting the kerb. This can be slightly different depending on the width of the car in front and how far out he is.

you said you can't see it.

--
This exchange was overheard between the separated sections of the jail.
A male voice yells over to the female side: "I got 12 inches over here you would love to have."
The female response was: "Well, spit it out it isn't yours."

James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back
corner? I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It
has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when
reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat
(and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to
the kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width
for my wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from
your back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use
your door mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it
shows the rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

The car doesn't obstruct the view of the kerb,

Yes it does when you are backing in and are at an angle to
the kerb, deciding when to turn the wheel so you end up
at the right distance from the kerb when you are stopped.

Why would the angle make any difference? The mirror sees what you would
see were your head stuck out of the window and looking back along the side
of the car.

just like cars behind you on the motorway don't obstruct your view of
the next lane.

That is completely different. You are looking at the cars in
the next lane and your car is parallel to the other cars too.

Are you looking in the wrong mirror or something?

Nope.

Observe this diagram:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb0a0fg0s7...rrors.jpg?dl=0
The arrows show what you are looking at using the wingmirror.

Nothing like the next lane situation where your are
looking at other cars, not the kerb/road surface.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do
you not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

Useless, every car steers differently and is a different size.

Nope, you get used to what a particular car does.

Ok if you hardly ever change your car, have more than one, or drive anyone
else's.

That is the situation for most people.

And mechanical memory isn't accurate enough,

Yes it is with some practice.

Easier just to watch what you're doing.

Not even possible with the kerb when backing
in. You have to start turning back long before
the kerb is anywhere near your back tyre.

you need to watch where you're going.

Only with where you stop next to the car that will be in
front of you when you have backed into the parking spot.
You're navigating with respect to that, not to the kerb and
have checked how far it is out from the curb unconsciously
as you pull up beside it before starting to back in the slot.

Sounds far too complicated.

That's how everyone does it even if they don't realise that.

I just drive towards the kerb I'm watching in the mirror.

You can't see the kerb.

I start in the same place (2 feet to the right of the car in front of
the space),

I got the kids to stop a bit closer to that
when teaching them to drive recently.

Trouble with that is you have less room for being slightly off when you're
swinging the front round

The front of your car always gets further away from
the car you have stopped beside as you back in.

and the car in front will be in your way.

Nope.

Better to be a bit far from the kerb and shuffle in, than to hit the kerb

How far you end up from the kerb has nothing to do with
how close you are to the car you stopped beside. That is
determined by when you start turning the wheel back the
other way with the back of your car at an angle to the kerb.

and have to pull back out in the way of people.

then turn the wheel almost fully while reversing,

The main mechanical memory is when you start
moving the wheel back again with the car at an angle
to the curb with the back of the car well in the slot
so you end up at the right distance from the kerb.

No way I could ever do that so accurately. If what you're saying is true,
you could close your eyes.

No you can't because you need your eyes to tell you when
you are in the right position behind the car you stopped
besides to start turning the wheel back the other way.

Some instructors tell the driver to do that when the back
corner of the car you stopped beside is in a particular
position down the side of the car you are parking.

then from then on watch where I'm going.

Yes, but relative to the car that you stopped next to, not the kerb.

No, I watch all three things (the two cars and the kerb) as I want to miss
all of them.

We had to open the passengers door to check how close
we ended up to the kerb once the car was stopped again.
I had both of the kids in the front seats and me in the back
with them swapping the front seats thru the teaching session
once they could drive adequately and just need to practice
parallel parking and 3 point turns etc.

Is that legal?

It certainly is here once the are reasonably competent drivers
and just need to practice their parallel parking and 3 point
turns and are quite capable of doing what they are told if
say some other car does something unexpected etc.

That happens all the time with practicing both, with other traffic
on the road etc. And with observing speed limits etc when doing
other driving around and when parking in carparks etc.

I've got used to reversing looking forward, using my rear-view mirror
mainly, and looking in my door mirrors to check how close the sides
of my car are to obstacles like gateposts, hedges and kerbs.

Thankfully our new car tilts the passenger door mirror automatically
when you engage reverse (you can turn this feature on or off), but my
car is older and you have to manually press the mirror-tilt switch as
you are about to reverse next to a low object such as a kerb, and
then
remember to set it back to normal position afterwards.

I remember having a discussion in a newgroup with someone who swore
blind that his door mirrors gave him enough view of the ground to
allow

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 20:23:48 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window. Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back
corner? I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It
has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when
reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat
(and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to
the kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much width
for my wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from
your back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use
your door mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so it
shows the rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

The car doesn't obstruct the view of the kerb,

Yes it does when you are backing in and are at an angle to
the kerb, deciding when to turn the wheel so you end up
at the right distance from the kerb when you are stopped.

Why would the angle make any difference? The mirror sees what you would
see were your head stuck out of the window and looking back along the side
of the car.

just like cars behind you on the motorway don't obstruct your view of
the next lane.

That is completely different. You are looking at the cars in
the next lane and your car is parallel to the other cars too.

Are you looking in the wrong mirror or something?

Nope.

Observe this diagram:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb0a0fg0s7...rrors.jpg?dl=0
The arrows show what you are looking at using the wingmirror.

Nothing like the next lane situation where your are
looking at other cars, not the kerb/road surface.

Irrelevant, you told me you couldn't see the kerb. I showed you you can.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do
you not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

Useless, every car steers differently and is a different size.

Nope, you get used to what a particular car does.

Ok if you hardly ever change your car, have more than one, or drive anyone
else's.

That is the situation for most people.

Rubbish.

And mechanical memory isn't accurate enough,

Yes it is with some practice.

Easier just to watch what you're doing.

Not even possible with the kerb when backing
in. You have to start turning back long before
the kerb is anywhere near your back tyre.

You see it a metre away.

you need to watch where you're going.

Only with where you stop next to the car that will be in
front of you when you have backed into the parking spot.
You're navigating with respect to that, not to the kerb and
have checked how far it is out from the curb unconsciously
as you pull up beside it before starting to back in the slot.

Sounds far too complicated.

That's how everyone does it even if they don't realise that.

Extremely good drivers can do it mechanically, most just watch where they're going.

I just drive towards the kerb I'm watching in the mirror.

You can't see the kerb.

I can, by moving my head up 6 inches so I can see a lower angle from the mirror.

I start in the same place (2 feet to the right of the car in front of
the space),

I got the kids to stop a bit closer to that
when teaching them to drive recently.

Trouble with that is you have less room for being slightly off when you're
swinging the front round

The front of your car always gets further away from
the car you have stopped beside as you back in.

But when you want to swing it back left, you're giving yourself less leeway.

Better to be a bit far from the kerb and shuffle in, than to hit the kerb

How far you end up from the kerb has nothing to do with
how close you are to the car you stopped beside. That is
determined by when you start turning the wheel back the
other way with the back of your car at an angle to the kerb.

If you're further away from the car in front to start with, you need a much sharper angle to get near the kerb, which is more difficult. Try it 2 metres from the car in front and see how hard it is.

and have to pull back out in the way of people.

then turn the wheel almost fully while reversing,

The main mechanical memory is when you start
moving the wheel back again with the car at an angle
to the curb with the back of the car well in the slot
so you end up at the right distance from the kerb.

No way I could ever do that so accurately. If what you're saying is true,
you could close your eyes.

No you can't because you need your eyes to tell you when
you are in the right position behind the car you stopped
besides to start turning the wheel back the other way.

Thought you had mechanical memory?

Some instructors tell the driver to do that when the back
corner of the car you stopped beside is in a particular
position down the side of the car you are parking.

I don't think my instructor told me anything like that. Just turn left, then right. And keep practising till you get it right.

then from then on watch where I'm going.

Yes, but relative to the car that you stopped next to, not the kerb.

No, I watch all three things (the two cars and the kerb) as I want to miss
all of them.

We had to open the passengers door to check how close
we ended up to the kerb once the car was stopped again.
I had both of the kids in the front seats and me in the back
with them swapping the front seats thru the teaching session
once they could drive adequately and just need to practice
parallel parking and 3 point turns etc.

Is that legal?

It certainly is here once the are reasonably competent drivers
and just need to practice their parallel parking and 3 point
turns and are quite capable of doing what they are told if
say some other car does something unexpected etc.

That happens all the time with practicing both, with other traffic
on the road etc. And with observing speed limits etc when doing
other driving around and when parking in carparks etc.

AFAIK, in the UK, you either have a license (so you can drive by yourself), or you don't (so you can drive with an adult in the front able to stop the car if something goes wrong).

--
I'm not as drunk as thinkle may peep.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:00:48 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:38:40 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 13:16:23 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 05:40:12 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 01:18:19 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 00:50:38 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 21/07/2016 00:09, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:50:53 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 20/07/2016 23:25, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:10 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 22:07, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 21:52:01 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 19:39, Bod wrote:
On 19/07/2016 19:34, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:21:53 +0100,
wrote:

On Tuesday, 19 July 2016 18:05:52 UTC+1, James Wilkinson
wrote:

Nobody ever parks right next to a wall. You need to
open
the
doors. A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWHYBi7kG8

Brilliant!

I see unlike some showoffs he didn't try to reverse in.

Oh dear! Intelligent drivers reverse into a parking
space.

Not if they wish to access the boot they don't. For
instance,
there's no
point in reversing into a space at a supermarket, where you
then
can't
get the trolley to the boot.

Same percentage if you look at driveways.

I always reverse onto our drive, unless I specifically want
the
car
the
other way round to work on it.

Do you have a valid reason for this? Do you just like showing
off
to
your neighbours?

Two related reasons:

1) It is easier to see approaching pedestrians and vehicles
when
driving
out forwards.

No it isn't. Try turning round.

There is less of the car sticking out of the drive before you can
see
clearly to each side, as in most cars, you are sat nearer the
front.

You're actually sat at the central pillar,

Nope, well in front of it.

You must sit in a funny position.

Nope, same place everyone else does.

Are you really short?

Nope.

Hint - the seatbelt is attached to the central pillar. The seatbelt
comes
from there directly across to your shoulder.

And it can only do that if you sit in front of the central pillar.

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 20:23:48 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
Rod Speed wrote
James Wilkinson wrote
NY wrote
James Wilkinson wrote

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are. I face towards the middle of the back window.
Do
you seriously reverse with your head looking towards the back
corner? I'm surprised you haven't dented several cars.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other
half.

I used to twist round and look over my shoulder when reversing. It
has
the advantage that you can see behind and also slightly to the
sides
(through the rear-door windows) with minimal movement of your head.

But I had to learn to use my door mirrors so I could see when
reversing
a van that I hired which had a solid panel behind the driver's seat
(and
therefore no rear-view mirror). When we moved house, I also needed
to
reverse my car so the left-hand wheels were as close as possible to
the kerb between the drive and the lawn, so as to leave as much
width
for my wife to fit her car beside me on the drive.

You cannot see a kerb at ground level when it's a few inches from
your back left wheel by looking over your shoulder; you need to use
your door mirror for that, tilted down from the normal position so
it
shows the rear wheel and kerb instead.

You can see the kerb going off into the distance,

Not when there is another car parked there.

The car doesn't obstruct the view of the kerb,

Yes it does when you are backing in and are at an angle to
the kerb, deciding when to turn the wheel so you end up
at the right distance from the kerb when you are stopped.

Why would the angle make any difference? The mirror sees what you would
see were your head stuck out of the window and looking back along the
side
of the car.

just like cars behind you on the motorway don't obstruct your view of
the next lane.

That is completely different. You are looking at the cars in
the next lane and your car is parallel to the other cars too.

Are you looking in the wrong mirror or something?

Nope.

Observe this diagram:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb0a0fg0s7...rrors.jpg?dl=0
The arrows show what you are looking at using the wingmirror.

Nothing like the next lane situation where your are
looking at other cars, not the kerb/road surface.

Irrelevant, you told me you couldn't see the kerb. I showed you you can.

and you can see the edge of your car where the side windows are. Do
you not have spatial awareness?

Most don't have it that accurately. What most actually do when
backing into a parallel parking spot with another car in the spot
at either end of the one you are backing into is orient themselves
with respect to the car the stopped alongside before starting to
back and turn the wheel by mechanical memory and end up the
right place from the kerb by quite a bit of practice.

Useless, every car steers differently and is a different size.

Nope, you get used to what a particular car does.

Ok if you hardly ever change your car, have more than one, or drive
anyone
else's.

That is the situation for most people.

Rubbish.

And mechanical memory isn't accurate enough,

Yes it is with some practice.

Easier just to watch what you're doing.

Not even possible with the kerb when backing
in. You have to start turning back long before
the kerb is anywhere near your back tyre.

You see it a metre away.

you need to watch where you're going.

Only with where you stop next to the car that will be in
front of you when you have backed into the parking spot.
You're navigating with respect to that, not to the kerb and
have checked how far it is out from the curb unconsciously
as you pull up beside it before starting to back in the slot.

Sounds far too complicated.

That's how everyone does it even if they don't realise that.

Extremely good drivers can do it mechanically, most just watch where
they're going.

I just drive towards the kerb I'm watching in the mirror.

You can't see the kerb.

I can, by moving my head up 6 inches so I can see a lower angle from the
mirror.

No way to do that when backing the car into the spot.

I start in the same place (2 feet to the right of the car in front of
the space),

I got the kids to stop a bit closer to that
when teaching them to drive recently.

Trouble with that is you have less room for being slightly off when
you're
swinging the front round

The front of your car always gets further away from
the car you have stopped beside as you back in.

But when you want to swing it back left, you're giving yourself less
leeway.

You are well behind the car you stopped next to by then.

Better to be a bit far from the kerb and shuffle in, than to hit the
kerb

How far you end up from the kerb has nothing to do with
how close you are to the car you stopped beside. That is
determined by when you start turning the wheel back the
other way with the back of your car at an angle to the kerb.

If you're further away from the car in front to start with, you need a
much sharper angle to get near the kerb,

Not when we are talking about either 2' or say 1'

which is more difficult.

Not when we are talking about either 2' or say 1'

Try it 2 metres from the car in front and see how hard it is.

Irrelevant to what happens with 1' instead of 2'

and have to pull back out in the way of people.

then turn the wheel almost fully while reversing,

The main mechanical memory is when you start
moving the wheel back again with the car at an angle
to the curb with the back of the car well in the slot
so you end up at the right distance from the kerb.

No way I could ever do that so accurately. If what you're saying is
true,
you could close your eyes.

No you can't because you need your eyes to tell you when
you are in the right position behind the car you stopped
beside to start turning the wheel back the other way.

Thought you had mechanical memory?

You have both.

Some instructors tell the driver to do that when the back
corner of the car you stopped beside is in a particular
position down the side of the car you are parking.

I don't think my instructor told me anything like that.

I said SOME for a reason.

Just turn left, then right. And keep practising till you get it right.

Clearly a lousy instructor.

then from then on watch where I'm going.

Yes, but relative to the car that you stopped next to, not the kerb.

No, I watch all three things (the two cars and the kerb) as I want to
miss
all of them.

We had to open the passengers door to check how close
we ended up to the kerb once the car was stopped again.
I had both of the kids in the front seats and me in the back
with them swapping the front seats thru the teaching session
once they could drive adequately and just need to practice
parallel parking and 3 point turns etc.

Is that legal?

It certainly is here once the are reasonably competent drivers
and just need to practice their parallel parking and 3 point
turns and are quite capable of doing what they are told if
say some other car does something unexpected etc.

That happens all the time with practicing both, with other traffic
on the road etc. And with observing speed limits etc when doing
other driving around and when parking in carparks etc.

AFAIK, in the UK, you either have a license (so you can drive by
yourself), or you don't (so you can drive with an adult in the front able
to stop the car if something goes wrong).

Here the only legal requirement is that the non learner driver
has to have a full licence and not be affected by alcohol etc.
There is no specification of what seat they must sit in.

I'd certainly be sitting in the front passengers seat initially
just in case the learner driver freezes or steers in the wrong
direction in an unexpected situation but once they are
competent at driving and just need to practice the stuff
like parallel parking and 3 point turns, and do what they
are told when they are getting too close to another car,
there is no need to be in the front seat when you have
two learner drivers who keep swapping the driving seat.

"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:00:48 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:38:40 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 13:16:23 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 05:40:12 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

James Wilkinson wrote
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 01:18:19 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:



"James Wilkinson" wrote in message
news On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 00:50:38 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 21/07/2016 00:09, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:50:53 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 20/07/2016 23:25, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:10 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 22:07, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 21:52:01 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 19/07/2016 19:39, Bod wrote:
On 19/07/2016 19:34, James Wilkinson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:21:53 +0100,

wrote:

On Tuesday, 19 July 2016 18:05:52 UTC+1, James
Wilkinson
wrote:

Nobody ever parks right next to a wall. You need to
open
the
doors. A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMWHYBi7kG8

Brilliant!

I see unlike some showoffs he didn't try to reverse in.

Oh dear! Intelligent drivers reverse into a parking
space.

Not if they wish to access the boot they don't. For
instance,
there's no
point in reversing into a space at a supermarket, where
you
then
can't
get the trolley to the boot.

Same percentage if you look at driveways.

I always reverse onto our drive, unless I specifically want
the
car
the
other way round to work on it.

Do you have a valid reason for this? Do you just like
showing
off
to
your neighbours?

Two related reasons:

1) It is easier to see approaching pedestrians and vehicles
when
driving
out forwards.

No it isn't. Try turning round.

There is less of the car sticking out of the drive before you
can
see
clearly to each side, as in most cars, you are sat nearer the
front.

You're actually sat at the central pillar,

Nope, well in front of it.

You must sit in a funny position.

Nope, same place everyone else does.

Are you really short?

Nope.

Hint - the seatbelt is attached to the central pillar. The
seatbelt
comes
from there directly across to your shoulder.

And it can only do that if you sit in front of the central pillar.

No.

Yep.

The seatbelt is anchored immediately to the right of your shoulder.

Wrong.

It doesn't come forwards to get to you.

Wrong.

If your car is different, you must have the seat pulled really far
forwards, you must have short legs.

Wrong.

I know I sit in my car with the pillar directly to the right of my
head.

which is called central for a reason.

It isnt actually central with most cars.

Is too.

Nope, quite off center in most cars.

Behind it is one row of seats and the boot.

Not with all cars with the row of seats.

In front is one row of eats and the bonnet.

But isnt in the center in a front to back line with most cars.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ssel dorf.jpg

Just the one car, stupid. Even you should have noticed that
there is a lot more car in front of that pillar than behind it.

Yip, my point exactly, have you forgotten what the discussion was
about?
Your side of the argument was reversing out is more dangerous because
of
more car in front of you, yet you've just admitted there is LESS car
in
front of you when reversing.

Look at the drivers seat (on the left, it's a foreign car). The
seat
back
is placed just behind the central pillar, so the driver will have
his
head
right next to the central pillar.

Now look at the nearest side to us - the pillar is clearly nearer
the
BACK
than the front,

So it isnt a central pillar in anything other than the name.

But you seem to think it's closer to the front. It's actually closer
to
the back, making reversing safer than going forwards.

so there's clearly less car sticking out when reversing out,

Pity that you can see far less of what is beside the
back of the car when looking over your shoulder.

Why would that be?

Because your eyes are nothing even remotely like square across
the car when looking back over your shoulder when reversing out.

They exactly are.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

I face towards the middle of the back window.

Your face is never square to the back window

Yes it is, 90 degrees turn from my neck, and 90 degrees turn from my back.

and you certainly
can't turn it equally in either direction like you can when driving
out of the driveway with the front of the car coming out first.

I just move my eyes if I need to see right or left better than my
peripheral vision can do.

I do that forwards too, which my instructor told me off for, as the tester
can't tell you're looking at a junction.

Hint: you twist your back half the way and your neck the other half.

Dont have to do anything like that when driving out normally
and can turn your head equally in both directions when driving
out normally and can't when backing out.

Doesn't matter, the end result is the same visibility.

Exactly the same as when looking forwards.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Why do you continually cut my replies into pieces and reply to every
single sentence?

Because its better to point out where each bit is wrong.

It just ends up with the same point being made 5 times in a row.

Everyone can see for themselves that that is a bare faced lie.

All 2 people who haven't killfiled you for being tedious. Even more
people killfile you than me, AND you have a FAQ about you, I don't.

Young children and animals can easily be hidden by a fence or
hedge until the last moment as they cross the end of your
drive -
you have a far better chance of seeing them in time when
driving
out forwards because of both of these.

Except you don't.

But he does with the trailer.

If a pedestrian walks across a drive, he should see and hear
vehicles
coming.

But kids and animals don't necessarily get out of the road what
is coming even if they do notice that something is coming.

More fool them, the gene pool needs cleaning.

With you in jail where you can't breed.

If what you say is true I can just claim I couldn't see.

You'll still get jailed for running over the kid.

Nope,

Yep.

it can be the kid's fault you know.

Not when it is not on the road.

Doesn't matter, cars come out of driveways and kids need to look out for
them.

Anyway, you won't kill one at that speed - reverse gear only goes up to
about 20mph, and the road safety folk tell us that 20mph kills virtually
nobody.

Pity about all those kids killed by someone backing over them.

Or probably the parent's, even though they weren't there.

It can't be the parents' fault if they arent there.

They should have been watching it if the kid is too stupid to look for
itself.

The law says otherwise.

Anyway, easy enough to reverse out at 2mph so you won't damage them.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Do you really think a 2mph car can hurt a kid?

Plenty of little kids get killed when someone backs over them
in the driveway because they didnt realise the little kid was there.

Well that'll make the next generation a bit more careful then.

Nope. Evolution doesnt work like that with humans.

Yes it does. Evolution is very simple, you get random changes in each
generation. Those that cause death don't make another generation with
similar genes.

We've just had the railway station surveillance camera footage of
one little kid that must have been about 5 on the station platform
with a ****ing great coal train coming down the line who actually
leaned right over the edge of the platform with his head in where
the engine would be with the kid only about 3 feet in front of the
engine.

Cool! Link?

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/plus7/survei...n-4-episode-2/
Not clear if your can watch it from there, you may need to use a VPN.

Tried 5 Aussie proxies and none of them fooled the site. "Not
available
in your location".

Interesting.

Strange.

True, they must have a pretty decent system for working out where you
are.

How is that even possible?

Same way they work out where you are when offering you relevant
google searches when you ask for petrol stations or restaurants.

The proxy should download the webpage as though it was that computer that
was displaying it.

Its more complicated than that with location.

A proxy should make it appear to the web server that you are in that
country. The webserver should see a browser on the IP of the proxy.

Plenty of sites use a lot more than just the IP now.

Like what?

Like with the google searches I listed.

That kid needs removing from the gene pool.

Didnt happen.

Presumably some bugger saved him.

Nope, he pulled his head back over the platform before
the front of the engine got to where his head was.

Quick reactions then.

Not reactions so much as he always intended to do that.

Ah, a game of dares?

Nope, he appeared to just be very curious.

And then ran across the road outside the station and
was lucky there were no cars coming at the time.

And gross stupidity.

It was a pedestrian crossing.

Running across a crossing without waiting for the cars to stop is still
stupid.

Lots of kids do that.

Going to be interesting to see how long he survives for.

Indeed.

2) The Highway Code tells drivers to reverse in because of
reason
1.

That is not a reason to do anything.

Failing to follow the highway code can count against you if you
end
up
in court following an accident.

You don't go to court because your neighbour's dog wasn't paying
attention.

But you will if it's a child.

Children are stupid.

Yes, and that is why you need to be particularly
careful that you don't run over them.

And they have much more tunnel vision than adults too.

You've claimed that before, but I didn't when I was younger.

Everyone does.

No they don't.

Yes they do. That has been studied for many years now.

Show me 3 conclusive properly done studies.

Go and find them for yourself.

I know they don't exist.

You're wrong, as always.

We used to test it in primary school as part of some lesson or other.
Mine was over a bit over 180 degrees (same as it still is), the
average
was 180 degrees.

You ****ed that up.

Nope, it was definitely more than directly to my right.

Doesnt mean they could all see 180 degrees.

I remember I was only 10 to 20 degrees better than them.

I dont believe kids can measure stuff like that accurately.

If I had tunnel vision as a kid I would remember it.

Wrong. They dont even notice it.

I would have noticed it in the test. Very simple - a hula hoop held
around you when you're sat in a chair. A coloured object was slowly moved
round until you saw it, at which point you tell them what colour it is.

Doesnt stop the kids moving their eyes.

If they walk in front of moving vehicles you can only blame them
(or
nowadays the parents).

Yes, but it still makes sense to drive in the way that
provides maximum visibility of them so you don't
run over them when they do something stupid.

When parking in a normal carpark, I don't even drive into
a slot when there are kids standing to the side, because
they can do something stupid as you drive into the slot.

If they get in my way it's their problem not mine.

It will be when you end up in jail.

Nope, I'd have been driving into an empty space.

You were driving into a parking place where there
were kids standing next to the car in the next space.

And since they were standing still when I drove in, any movement by them
after I'm going towards them is their own stupidity.

The law says otherwise with children.

Show me.

Those that end up in court for running them over.

Running in front of a car makes it your fault.

The kid didnt run.

Run, cycle, jump, whatever.

They didnt do any of that.

They had to do some kind of movement.

Just keep walking past the end of your drive.

And at car park speeds, they can't get more than a bruise.

Must be why some kids get killed when their parents back
over them.

Getting actually run OVER at that speed is absurd. You'd get knocked
down
at the most then roll out the way.

Must be why some kids get killed when their parents back over them.

More fool them.

Kids have been killed when Ikea chest of drawers that haven't
been screwed to the wall have a drawer cascade onto them.

That's pathetic. How feeble are these kids?

Not feeble at all. Some have been killed by pulling TVs down on
themselves too.

More fool them. Why should we care?

Most arent psychopaths.

I use the indicator to tell everyone which space I'm going into.

You'll still end up in jail when you run them over.

They were told where I was going

Yes.

but chose to try to commit suicide. Their fault, clear cut case.

The law will rule otherwise. Legally you arent entitled to just drive
over
someone who happens to be where you are indicating you are going.

In spades with little kids.

Only if I deliberately continue. Just not seeing they were running
stupidly towards me from behind another car isn't a deliberate act of
running them down.

We arent talking about running or even walking.

What then?

Just being there.

And nobody has ever had "reversing out of their drive" count
against
them, as 90% of people do it.

Plenty who run over kids when backing
out of their drive do end up in court.

Funny I've never heard of such an occurrence.

Then you need to get out more.

Maybe you live somewhere worse than me with stupider people.

Nope, ours are much smarter than you lot, their
ancestors left that soggy little frigid island long ago.

Yet they haven't learnt what a car is yet?

That little kid that stuck his head out over the edge of the
platform where the train engine would be in a seconds
clearly knew what a train is and did that anyway.

Is he in the special class at school?

They didnt say and presumably dont even know what his
name is. It was surveillance footage in the train station.

None of the staff showed up and fronted his mother who
was in the dunny at the time.

For some reason I find the word dunny amusing.

Him and his two older brothers
were rampaging around by themselves with their mum in the
dunny with another in a push chair thing.

A dare then.

Nope, they were just running around.

Only the odd bicycle or dog.

That's because all those obese scottish kids are either veging
out in front of the TV or are playing video games etc.

No, they look where they're going.

Must be why so many of them get run over.

Funny how I've never heard of one incidence of this.

Then you need to get out more.

Perhaps I just live somewhere where kids aren't that stupid?

We know you lot are too stupid to move from there.

We're clever enough not to get run over.

Another lie. Kids get run over there just like everywhere.

Even the ones in the middle of the road on skateboards get out of the way
when they realise I'm not going to bother stopping for them.

I'd say they were equally careful as adults.

More fool you.

It is my observation, so is therefore correct.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

1st hand experience is the most reliable.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

You deny 1st hand is better than 2nd hand? Look up Chinese whispers.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

There is a third reason, but that is infrequent: I can couple
up
my
trailer whilst on the drive and then set off, instead of
having
to
park on the road and drag it out by hand.

You can't reverse a trailer? I've hooked up a trailer quite a
few
times
and simply reversed out of my drive.

There isn't space to get the trailer around the car until the
car
is
off
the drive. Right way round I can couple it on first.

Ah, depends where you store your trailer I guess.

Most don't have a lot of choice on that.

But since it's infrequent, why not just reverse in when you need
the
trailer?

You don't always know when you will be needing it.

I normally don't. I see something listed in a facebook buy
sell swap group that I decide I want that needs a trailer
and didn't know that when I drove the car in last time.

Easy enough to turn the car round for that odd occasion.

More convenient to not have to.

ODD OCCASION.

MORE CONVENIENT TO NOT HAVE TO.

Inconvenience x oftenness = if it's worthwhile preventing it.

Eg. my lawnmower fails to start 1 in 1000 times.
My lawnmower fails to start 1 in 2 times.
Same problem, different likelihood. Only the second would make me fix
the
mower.

Most of us who have a trailer use it a lot more
than 1 in 10K times they drive into the driveway.

I said 1000 times.

Most of us who have a trailer use it a lot more
than 1 in 1000 times they drive into the driveway.

I leave my driveway once or twice a day. I use the trailer about once
every 2 years.

Plenty use their trailer more than that.

And most people with a trailer use it maybe twice a year on holiday, and
another twice a year for taking something to the skip.

Those numbers are straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.

And even if they were accurate at is a lot more often than 1 in 1000 uses
of the driveway.

Just look at the number of trailers in driveways, and the number on the
road.

As to reversing, it depends what you are towing - a caravan is
easy,
a
very small camping trailer is harder, because as it turns to
one
side,
you can't see it at all because it is too low and narrow and it
is
already at a severe angle before it comes into view. As it
happens,
my
trailer is just tall enough to see, so not a problem.

You can't see a small trailer?

Yep, plenty are too low to see out the back window of most cars.

You've got a rear window and 3 mirrors, you must be able to find
it
somewhere.

Not until its later than you need to when backing.

Mirrors are slower?!

Nope,. the trailer isnt visible in the mirrors until it is too late
to
correct its turning.

Even if it's lower than the back window (and I see no point in a
trailer
that small, just get a roofrack),

Useless for a fridge, freezer, washing machine, dishwasher
etc etc etc. And mine is a bigger than average trailer,
7'x5' instead of the much more common 6'x4' and is
still too low to see out the back window so a real
problem when backing up the driveway.

You can put all those in the boot,

Nope.

and I have done. Even a full size commercial chest freezer in a
hatchback.

Cant put my full sized upright fridge or freezer in any hatchback
and they need to be upright when moving them anyway.

No they don't. I've just laid mine down.

Not even possible to get a full sized fridge or upright freezer in a
Golf.

I have done.

Not even possible. The back door isnt wide enough.

Yet I managed just fine.

It wasnt a full sized fridge.

Full sized is just taller (longer when lying down in a hatchback).

Even sillier than you usually manage.

If you fold the back seats completely, it's quite high in the back.
And
certainly more than wide enough for an appliance. Anything bigger
than
the back of a golf would need quite a large trailer,

Bull****. The trailer only needs to be big enough
to contain the base of the fridge/upright freezer.

So you'd drive along with the thing upright,

Yep.

raising the centre of gravity considerably?

Works fine.

You clearly go slower round corners than me. I tipped a sofa over while
driving along with it in a trailer. And its longest dimension wasn't
vertical.

Thats because you didnt tie it down properly.

then you'd easily see it.

Wrong, as always with the lower ones.

When the fridge is in it it's pretty high.

Pity that the fridge isnt in it when backing out
of the driveway when you are going to get it.

What if you're dumping it or selling it?

Irrelevant to what happens when you are going to get it.

And when you are dumping it or selling it, only a fool
drags the trailer around the car that is driven forward
in to the drive, carts a ****ing great fridge past the
car and the trailer, puts it in the trailer and backs
the trailer out of the drive.

you can see the arse end of it.

Nope.

Yip.

Nope.

Think about the angle from your eye to the bottom of the back
window.

Don't need to think about it, I know I can't see it.

Thanks for proving you must be really short.

I'm not.

Well I don't have a problem reversing with a trailer and you do.

Because my trailer is lower than yours.

I don't have one but I borrow my neighbour's. It's the lowest trailer
you
can get. The sides are only a foot high.

They dont all have the tray at the same height
and you can get them with no sides at all too.

No sides at all would be useless,

Must be why trailers used to carry cars are done like that.

things would fall off or need a tremendous amount of lashing down.

Nope, the same very basic tying down that anyone but
a fool does with something like a fridge even when the
trailer has some sides.