On Fri, 20 May 2016 17:11:57 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 May 2016 15:40:07 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
[quote]
Period Meter no. Previous Present Units used kilowatt hours
19.11.15-1.2.16 0000406 7296 E 7596 C 300 hcf 9502

First up 300 units is an awful lot.

Sorry I've only just caught up with the start of this thread.

"Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow. "

If you've only lived in the property for six months,
who provided the estimate for the bill three months ago ?
I assume the meter was read, and that reading confirmed
by yourself* when you bought the house ?


Yes, vendor submitted and I confirmed it on taking possession. Might
have been 1 unit difference.


Ideally you'd want to trace the source of this abnormally
high usage using a process of elimination. But while in
Summer its possible to forgo central heating, the same can't
be said to apply to the hot water system, or cooking.


That'd be easier if I didn't have to sit and count the little dial go
around 14 times for 1 unit.

However as others may have already suggested, before considering
changing supplier it might be more useful to try and trace the
source of this abnormally high consumption. I'm pretty
confident that if you researched "typical consumption"
for various categories of house and usage you'd be able
to confirm this for yourself.


Well there is no doubt there are cheaper deals for me to go on
regardless of whether I know the cause so the sooner I start saving
money the better.

--
AnthonyL

AnthonyL wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

My gas has been about 9100 kWh the past 12 months

I'd be more than happy with that.

probably your easiest "quick win" is to fit a programmable stat instead
of the missing room stat, having the boiler just on a timer and relying
on its internal temperature setting isn't giving you much control. The
advantage of the programmable stat is to set different temperatures
throughout the day e.g. for wake-up/get-up periods, during the day,
evening. If the parts of the house you spend time in is more variable,
consider a wireless one and take it around with you.

On Fri, 20 May 2016 17:36:21 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

My gas has been about 9100 kWh the past 12 months

I'd be more than happy with that.

probably your easiest "quick win" is to fit a programmable stat instead
of the missing room stat,

onto a Baxi105HE? I suspect the control (for some reason in the
pantry) was disconnected when the boiler was moved to the converted
utility room at the end of the flat-roofed garage instead of up in the
loft which is where everyone else around here seems to have theirs.


--
AnthonyL

AnthonyL wrote:

On Fri, 20 May 2016 17:36:21 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

probably your easiest "quick win" is to fit a programmable stat instead
of the missing room stat,

onto a Baxi105HE?

Yes, you just leave the boiler itself set at "on" and the programmable
stat acts as both timer and roomstat, usually they learn how long it
takes the house to heat up, so it comes on earlier on colder mornings,

If wired you'd need a three core plus earth cable to where you site it
(four core plus earth if you want separate hot water timer), wireless
might be easier a) as the receiver can be sited near boiler provided it
gets signal, b) you can move the thermostat to whichever room you care
about setting the temp for.

e.g. wired version, without separate H/W timer

http://www.heatmisershop.co.uk/heatmiser-touch-programmable-touch-screenthermostat

On 19/05/2016 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow.
...
Ofgem seems to use a figure of 3,300 electric and 16,500 gas as being
the typical medium usage household. East Midlands.



Just a thought - a bungalow would have more external wall/roof/ground
floor area than a house of the same volume, so might cost more to heat
proportionally.

--
Reentrant

On 20/05/16 18:30, Reentrant wrote:
On 19/05/2016 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow.
...
Ofgem seems to use a figure of 3,300 electric and 16,500 gas as being
the typical medium usage household. East Midlands.



Just a thought - a bungalow would have more external wall/roof/ground
floor area than a house of the same volume, so might cost more to heat
proportionally.

Well that depends on how many rooms it has.

The lowest surface area to volume is a sphere.



--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

On Fri, 20 May 2016 18:30:48 +0100, Reentrant
wrote:

On 19/05/2016 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow.
...
Ofgem seems to use a figure of 3,300 electric and 16,500 gas as being
the typical medium usage household. East Midlands.



Just a thought - a bungalow would have more external wall/roof/ground
floor area than a house of the same volume, so might cost more to heat
proportionally.


Good point which has just prompted me to properly look at the EPC that
came with the house. I'm a D and adopting suggested improvements
should make it a B. I'll study it in a bit more detail.

--
AnthonyL

On Fri, 20 May 2016 18:36:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/05/16 18:30, Reentrant wrote:
On 19/05/2016 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow.
...
Ofgem seems to use a figure of 3,300 electric and 16,500 gas as being
the typical medium usage household. East Midlands.



Just a thought - a bungalow would have more external wall/roof/ground
floor area than a house of the same volume, so might cost more to heat
proportionally.

Well that depends on how many rooms it has.


Which I gave in my OP for my property.

--
AnthonyL

On 19/05/2016 12:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


I am in a 3 bedroom well insulated house and I used around 600 liters of
oil in the last six months or 60,000 units appx. You are massively under
that.


Where do you buy that oil? I would be happy to pay £1 litre.

See
http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.u...41&_dad=portal


--
Michael Chare

On 19/05/2016 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow. Having got some history now of usage
patterns I've started shopping for a best deal.

In the 6 months to end of April we used:

Electricity: 1200 units
Gas: 17,300 units (Kwh ~ 546,000 cu ft)

By all accounts the gas usage is high and we were away for the month
of March so just 3 hours/day low heating in the early hours of the
morning.

The bungalow is double glazed, no draughts, 3 beds + study + utility
room. We turn the radiators down in non-living rooms, so 2 beds and
utility are low. There are no TRVs in the hall or bathroom. Gas hot
water for shower and gas cooker. Washing machine is cold water
supplied.

There is insulation though most of the loft has been boarded many
years ago.

Does something seem wrong? How to go about determining whether it is
my wife liking long showers and warm temperatures or some other
problem.

Ofgem seems to use a figure of 3,300 electric and 16,500 gas as being
the typical medium usage household. East Midlands.



The gas consumption looks on the high side, but you are measuring during
the winter months when my oil consumption is greatest and you do have a
gas cooker.

I use a programmable thermostat to control central heating.

My electricity consumption is more than double that!

Maybe you should check your gas meter each week. The initial reading
might be wrong.


--
Michael Chare

On Sat, 21 May 2016 01:07:19 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 19/05/2016 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
Six months ago my wife and I moved from a coal heated house to a gas
fired centrally heated bungalow. Having got some history now of usage
patterns I've started shopping for a best deal.

In the 6 months to end of April we used:

Electricity: 1200 units
Gas: 17,300 units (Kwh ~ 546,000 cu ft)

By all accounts the gas usage is high and we were away for the month
of March so just 3 hours/day low heating in the early hours of the
morning.

The bungalow is double glazed, no draughts, 3 beds + study + utility
room. We turn the radiators down in non-living rooms, so 2 beds and
utility are low. There are no TRVs in the hall or bathroom. Gas hot
water for shower and gas cooker. Washing machine is cold water
supplied.

There is insulation though most of the loft has been boarded many
years ago.

Does something seem wrong? How to go about determining whether it is
my wife liking long showers and warm temperatures or some other
problem.

Ofgem seems to use a figure of 3,300 electric and 16,500 gas as being
the typical medium usage household. East Midlands.



The gas consumption looks on the high side, but you are measuring during
the winter months when my oil consumption is greatest and you do have a
gas cooker.

It is gas hobs, the ovens and grill are electric. I haven't paid much
attention to which my wife uses the most.


I use a programmable thermostat to control central heating.

My electricity consumption is more than double that!

Maybe you should check your gas meter each week. The initial reading
might be wrong.


I've been checking every bill time and my spreadsheet comes out with
the same value as the subsequent bill. The initial reading agreed
with the vendor and I took a photo at the time to ensure no arguments.

I've just checked up on a query I had with the vendor (a 40 something
couple on their own + dog) on power usage and he advised that his last
12 months was:

Electricity usage in 12 months - Total 4,309 kWh
Gas use in the last 12 months - Total 13,319 kWh

So a lot more electricity and a lot less gas.


--
AnthonyL

A question about gas boilers, and my Baxi 105HE combi/condensor in
particular.

Once it is burning does it just burn flat out or are there lower and
higher burn settings depending on whether it is hot water or central
heating or both?

The reason I ask is that I can measure very accurately the gas
consumption over a small period as it takes 14 rotations of the dial
to register 1 cu ft.

Based on that I did a preliminary test which showed 1.22 revolutions
in 130secs. This was whilst the ch was on last night. Now I just
need to work that figure into kWh and I can get a figure of fuel burn
rate. If it is reasonably accurate it will help with reconciling and
understanding burn rates for different appliances - gas hobs, shower
(and length of time in the shower) etc.

Can someone work out the figure which I can then x-check please?





--
AnthonyL

En el artículo , The Natural Philosopher
escribió:

The lowest surface area to volume is a sphere.

Save energy - live in a hamster ball!

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

On 20/05/2016 17:11, michael adams wrote:

Ideally you'd want to trace the source of this abnormally
high usage using a process of elimination.

BAXI 105E - Heap of junk.
Bungalow, so high surface area exposed to elements,
plus 1972 flat roof in part. I would pull the ceiling down
in those areas and retrofit tight-fitting celotex, new PB
and skim. Floors - solid or suspended ?. Suspended, well
ventilated floors with 'modern' exposed wooden or laminate
flooring is a money pit as far as thermal efiiciency is
concerned. There is no subsitute for a good quality 80/20
fitted wool carpet for this situation.

On 20/05/2016 18:01, AnthonyL wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 17:36:21 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

My gas has been about 9100 kWh the past 12 months

I'd be more than happy with that.

probably your easiest "quick win" is to fit a programmable stat instead
of the missing room stat,

onto a Baxi105HE? I suspect the control (for some reason in the
pantry) was disconnected when the boiler was moved to the converted
utility room at the end of the flat-roofed garage instead of up in the
loft which is where everyone else around here seems to have theirs.


It runs directly on mains pressure, so it doesn't matter where it
goes, though the most appropriate place for a BAxi 105 is in a skip.

How much water do you waste before the shower or hot taps produce
hot water ?. What is your water consumption ?.

I think you really need a proper stored hot water system. In a bungalow
this would need a shower pump unless you went for a heat store.

In article , Theo theom+news@chi
ark.greenend.org.uk scribeth thus
AnthonyL wrote:
I agree though if the data is realistic there is probably enough there
to justify changing supplier sooner rather than later. I think I can
get Gas at TCR 3.3p/kwh (calculated on a lower usage) and Electricity
at 11.58.

I'll raise (lower?) you 2.78p/kWh:
http://www.daligas.co.uk/pricing

There are others around that ballpark.

Theo


Very well priced..

However can you find a leccy supplier so that the advantage of the
Daligas service can then be less that a combined tariff CB postcode and
around 90 a month on gas 110 on leccy. There are reasons for the latter
--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 22 May 2016 12:57:42 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 20/05/2016 17:11, michael adams wrote:

Ideally you'd want to trace the source of this abnormally
high usage using a process of elimination.

BAXI 105E - Heap of junk.

Suggestions?

Bungalow, so high surface area exposed to elements,
plus 1972 flat roof in part. I would pull the ceiling down
in those areas and retrofit tight-fitting celotex, new PB
and skim. Floors - solid or suspended ?. Suspended, well
ventilated floors with 'modern' exposed wooden or laminate
flooring is a money pit as far as thermal efiiciency is
concerned.

All at what cost for what saving?

There is no subsitute for a good quality 80/20
fitted wool carpet for this situation.


As we have since had fitted


and

It runs directly on mains pressure, so it doesn't matter where it
goes, though the most appropriate place for a BAxi 105 is in a skip.

So you've already said.


How much water do you waste before the shower or hot taps produce
hot water ?.

The shower is next to the boiler in the utility room so pdq.

The kitchen is more problematic especially as my wife prefers to do
washing up under running water.

What is your water consumption ?.

Still under investigation. Shower produces one bucketfull (~10
litres)/min.


I think you really need a proper stored hot water system. In a bungalow
this would need a shower pump unless you went for a heat store.


At what cost for what benefit?

--
AnthonyL

On Sat, 21 May 2016 09:13:41 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

Just updating some bits:

A question about gas boilers, and my Baxi 105HE combi/condensor in
particular.

Once it is burning does it just burn flat out or are there lower and
higher burn settings depending on whether it is hot water or central
heating or both?

The boiler certainly regulates ie it burns at a slower rate when
necessary as well as having intermediate on/off periods.


The reason I ask is that I can measure very accurately the gas
consumption over a small period as it takes 14 rotations of the dial
to register 1 cu ft.


For anyone who's interested the Parkinson Cowan clock dial is almost
certainly simply measure 1cu ft/rotation and not as above. 10
rotations coincided with an increment in the Red number (10's of cu
ft).

Based on that I did a preliminary test which showed 1.22 revolutions
in 130secs. This was whilst the ch was on last night. Now I just
need to work that figure into kWh and I can get a figure of fuel burn
rate. If it is reasonably accurate it will help with reconciling and
understanding burn rates for different appliances - gas hobs, shower
(and length of time in the shower) etc.


The shower runs the gas pretty continuously at a rate of about 1 cu ft
/min. An 11'41" shower used 11.52 cu ft which I reckon to be 3.65kWh
and on my tariff costing 13.6p, so roughly just over 1p/min.

Does this align with any of your estimates/expectations?

--
AnthonyL

On Mon, 23 May 2016 12:12:50 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:

The shower runs the gas pretty continuously at a rate of about 1 cu ft
/min. An 11'41" shower used 11.52 cu ft which I reckon to be 3.65kWh
and on my tariff costing 13.6p, so roughly just over 1p/min.

3.65kWh in 11'41" gives a power input of 18.75 kW (if I've got the
maths right). 80% effciency gives 15 kW into the water

45 C shower, 15 C mains in and a flow rate of 7.5l/min requires 15.7
kW so ball park correct.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 23 May 2016 13:29:21 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 23 May 2016 12:12:50 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:

The shower runs the gas pretty continuously at a rate of about 1 cu ft
/min. An 11'41" shower used 11.52 cu ft which I reckon to be 3.65kWh
and on my tariff costing 13.6p, so roughly just over 1p/min.

3.65kWh in 11'41" gives a power input of 18.75 kW (if I've got the
maths right). 80% effciency gives 15 kW into the water

45 C shower, 15 C mains in and a flow rate of 7.5l/min requires 15.7
kW so ball park correct.


After being a factor of 10~100 out one way or another a confirming
view from a different approach is reassuring though I need to check
the flow rate in normal operation as I got nearer 10l/min (not
heated).

Thank you.


--
AnthonyL

On Fri, 20 May 2016 12:50:24 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Fri, 20 May 2016 13:07:43 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:


I'm not surprised you're confused. I think I am now!


OK - the 4 black numbers on my meter are reading 100's of cu ft which
the industry calls units.

So whilst I was reading that as being 7847.970 cu ft it is in fact
784790 cu ft*

* The dial is doing .071 cu ft for 1 revolution so I would need to sit
and watch how many times it goes round - 14 to a cu ft.


I need to correct the above for my reference (and anyone else who is
watching) and I've uploaded an explanation on https://flic.kr/p/Ht9pVQ

The "clock"0 dial is 1 cu ft/revolution but as "ones" are not recorded
it takes 10 revs to turn the number over ie 10 cu ft. And of course
100 revs to register 1 unit (100 cuft = 1hcf) as wanted by the energy
supplier.

This does mean that the gas consumption whilst say taking a shower, or
using the hob, can be quite accurately recorded, to around .02 cuft.

I believe that the .071 annotation refers to the vane inside which
rotates once the flow starts and is of no relevance to the user.



--
AnthonyL