I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.


--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again. But obviously in perfect harmony
within, as regards doing down the UK. Wonder why that should be? Every
country in the EU has more in common with any other EU country than the UK?

There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

Yet you've regularly said you want the freedom of others in the UK
restricted.

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 17:50:15 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again.

Do you think the EU is one harmonious block of like minded people. ?
Then think again.


But obviously in perfect harmony
within,

yes they are all 'bestest' of friends aren't they.



as regards doing down the UK. Wonder why that should be? Every
country in the EU has more in common with any other EU country than the UK?

Because they all speak a foreign language and they teach English as
the second most important language.
Here in the UK we all speak English as our first language. (although some scots and welsh have problems). Our english schools choose wich foreign langauge to teach and how to teach it. which is why my French teacher was imported from pakistan, because that's the best way to teach English. :-{}
In most of Europre they prefer to Employ English teachers to teach English,
French teachers to teach French etc...

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again.

Do you think the EU is one harmonious block of like minded people. ?
Then think again.

No I don't. Hence my comment. But lots do seem to think they are united to
do down the UK.

Just like Carswell on Newsnight earlier this week.

'The UK has only 10% of the vote in the EU which is why we never get our
own way.'

How often do we not get our own way?

Bluster with some number or other.

In fact, 85% of all results are as the UK voted.

--
*Broken pencils are pointless.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 17:26:08 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again.

Do you think the EU is one harmonious block of like minded people. ?
Then think again.

No I don't. Hence my comment. But lots do seem to think they are united to
do down the UK.

Just like Carswell on Newsnight earlier this week.

'The UK has only 10% of the vote in the EU which is why we never get our
own way.'

How often do we not get our own way?

Bluster with some number or other.

In fact, 85% of all results are as the UK voted.


More drivel from Ploughperson.
http://forbritain.org/measuring_brit..._ministers.pdf
Still living in the fantasy world?

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 17:26:08 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again.

Do you think the EU is one harmonious block of like minded people. ?
Then think again.

No I don't. Hence my comment. But lots do seem to think they are united to
do down the UK.

Then how come such a thing can't be disporoved with evidence.


Just like Carswell on Newsnight earlier this week.

I did see Newsnight but don't remmeber what he said.


'The UK has only 10% of the vote in the EU which is why we never get our
own way.'

How often do we not get our own way?

Bluster with some number or other.

In fact, 85% of all results are as the UK voted.

So 15% as we didn't vote.
But no indication on what these things were which to me implies a cover up
or manipulation in the stats.
I lnow because I;'ve done that myself for work because I was told to.
No I cant; see that this doesn;t work higher up the chain, in fact I know it does and it's covered up with a higher degree.
which is why a certain footballer was charge with raping a 15 year old while JS got away with what he did for so long.

Which is also how some priests get away with peadophila while a lesser person would be 'exposed'.

in 1485970 20160518 230036 Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again. But obviously in perfect harmony
within, as regards doing down the UK. Wonder why that should be? Every
country in the EU has more in common with any other EU country than the UK?

In many respects they probably do, yes.

If you were talking individuals instead of countries wouldn't you say that the UK
was an anti-social loner with no friends?

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 07:38:57 UTC+1, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1485970 20160518 230036 Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again. But obviously in perfect harmony
within, as regards doing down the UK. Wonder why that should be? Every
country in the EU has more in common with any other EU country than the UK?

In many respects they probably do, yes.

If you were talking individuals instead of countries wouldn't you say that the UK
was an anti-social loner with no friends?

I'd say we keep our friends at a sensible distance as for our enemies well... we'll have to work that one out when it comes about.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 07:38:57 UTC+1, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1485970 20160518 230036 Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as
if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country
back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again. But obviously in perfect harmony
within, as regards doing down the UK. Wonder why that should be? Every
country in the EU has more in common with any other EU country than the
UK?

In many respects they probably do, yes.

If you were talking individuals instead of countries wouldn't you say
that the UK
was an anti-social loner with no friends?

I'd say we keep our friends at a sensible distance as for our enemies
well...
we'll have to work that one out when it comes about.

Nope, you lot have been doing that for centurys now, millennia in fact.

On 19/05/16 12:16, Tim Streater wrote:
The state had put it
there, so that was that.

I was talking to te Pakistani Glaswegian former owner if the village
shop. I said 'I cant stand the government' and he said 'well someone has
to do it' and I looked at him, and paused and then said 'Why?'

And I think that's when I realised why I was becoming a libertarian.
Everybody thinks 'the government must do this' but actually, its usually
a damned sight quicker and cheaper to do it yourself.

Lefty****s believe that the government is an agency that is there to
right social wrongs, and supply all needs to the population. But its
actually totally crap at doing that.

Its actually far easier to leave people with money in their pockets and
let them buy what they want. Debit card democracy


Having a government do it implies they are too stupid to know what they
want, themselves.

Of course then you look at the typical lefty****, and realise the logic
in that...


--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And I think that's when I realised why I was becoming a libertarian.

Odd all we get from you is a long long list of the things you'd like to
ban.

But then it's obvious you want freedom. Only for yourself, though.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The UK has developed differently to the majority of European countries,
not least the legal system,

Are you referring to England or Scotland? ;-)

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Bob Martin
wrote:

in 1485970 20160518 230036 Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as
if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country
back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply
give in and let other people walk all over us.

Ah yes. The EU against the UK again. But obviously in perfect harmony
within, as regards doing down the UK. Wonder why that should be? Every
country in the EU has more in common with any other EU country than the
UK?

In many respects they probably do, yes.

If you were talking individuals instead of countries wouldn't you say that
the
UK was an anti-social loner with no friends?

The UK has developed differently to the majority of European countries,
not least the legal system, largely because they were all occupied by
Napoleon

Plenty of them never were and they didnt have to keep any
legal system he imposed on the ones he did occupy anyway.

(they were also occupied during WW2, of course, but I don't
think that affected matters). There is also the presumption in such
countries that the state always knows best.

That mangles the real story too.

This view is not related to
whether they are socialist or not. We don't take that view here

Neither do plenty of other places.

When I lived in Switzerland, I was in a small village. It had an
outdoor shooting range across the road from where I lived, for the
mandatory use of the citizens' army every second Saturday from 07.00 to
11.00. What a ****ing row!

I mentioned this once to my landlady in a complaining sort of way, her
response was that to do anything about it you immediately come up
against the state. For her, that was end-of-story. The state had put it
there, so that was that.

Try telling that to the French. They dont operate like that.
Neither do the Scandinavians, Italians, Greeks, etc etc etc.

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

On Wed, 18 May 2016 21:12:05 +0100, WeeBob wrote:

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

Depends on what would happen in the minimum two-years of post-Brexit vote
negotiations before we would actually leave.

We might stay in the EEA - which would automatically keep free movement.
We might not be EEA, but negotiate a deal which included free movement.
Or free movement might go.

If free movement goes, then there might still be visa-free travel, and
even residency both ways. Any visa deals with Schengen would have to be
Schengen-wide, because Schengen means single Visas in and out, so France
and Germany would have to be treated exactly the same as Poland, Latvia,
Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc.

Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus aren't - yet - Schengen countries, but are
on the road.

Croatia doesn't - yet - have free movement to the UK, because after being
one of only a couple of countries to immediately give free movement to
the 2004 accession countries, the UK opted to take the maximum 7yr
restriction for all new joiners.

Ireland isn't - yet - a Schengen country, because they have an opt-out
along with the UK. But Brexit may mean they decide to join Schengen.

Or Schengen might collapse... Then ALL bets are off.

But this is all (entirely) speculation.

Right now, I can freely travel, work, loaf, anywhere I want. I'm free to
do so.

Post brexit, that freedom is lost. Am I wrong?





On 2016-05-18 21:26, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 21:12:05 +0100, WeeBob wrote:

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

Depends on what would happen in the minimum two-years of post-Brexit vote
negotiations before we would actually leave.

We might stay in the EEA - which would automatically keep free movement.
We might not be EEA, but negotiate a deal which included free movement.
Or free movement might go.

If free movement goes, then there might still be visa-free travel, and
even residency both ways. Any visa deals with Schengen would have to be
Schengen-wide, because Schengen means single Visas in and out, so France
and Germany would have to be treated exactly the same as Poland, Latvia,
Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc.

Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus aren't - yet - Schengen countries, but are
on the road.

Croatia doesn't - yet - have free movement to the UK, because after being
one of only a couple of countries to immediately give free movement to
the 2004 accession countries, the UK opted to take the maximum 7yr
restriction for all new joiners.

Ireland isn't - yet - a Schengen country, because they have an opt-out
along with the UK. But Brexit may mean they decide to join Schengen.

Or Schengen might collapse... Then ALL bets are off.

In article , WeeBob
writes
But this is all (entirely) speculation.

Right now, I can freely travel, work, loaf, anywhere I want. I'm free
to do so.

Post brexit, that freedom is lost. Am I wrong?


That is a matter for the rest of the EU to decide on in the first
instant and then to come to us, the UK, with their proposals.



On 2016-05-18 21:26, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 21:12:05 +0100, WeeBob wrote:

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

Depends on what would happen in the minimum two-years of post-Brexit vote
negotiations before we would actually leave.

We might stay in the EEA - which would automatically keep free movement.
We might not be EEA, but negotiate a deal which included free movement.
Or free movement might go.

If free movement goes, then there might still be visa-free travel, and
even residency both ways. Any visa deals with Schengen would have to be
Schengen-wide, because Schengen means single Visas in and out, so France
and Germany would have to be treated exactly the same as Poland, Latvia,
Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc.

Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus aren't - yet - Schengen countries, but are
on the road.

Croatia doesn't - yet - have free movement to the UK, because after being
one of only a couple of countries to immediately give free movement to
the 2004 accession countries, the UK opted to take the maximum 7yr
restriction for all new joiners.

Ireland isn't - yet - a Schengen country, because they have an opt-out
along with the UK. But Brexit may mean they decide to join Schengen.

Or Schengen might collapse... Then ALL bets are off.



--
bert

In article ,
WeeBob wrote:
But this is all (entirely) speculation.

Right now, I can freely travel, work, loaf, anywhere I want. I'm free to
do so.

Post brexit, that freedom is lost. Am I wrong?

The BREXITs will tell you that the EU is so desperate to trade with the UK
that post BREXIT we'll be able to negotiate a far more favourable
agreement than now. Of course they are guessing. Or even gambling. Just
how lucky do you feel?

A clue might be that other European countries not in the EU haven't got a
more favourable deal than those in it. Not surprisingly.

--
*Cleaned by Stevie Wonder, checked by David Blunkett*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"WeeBob" wrote in message
...
But this is all (entirely) speculation.

Right now, I can freely travel, work, loaf, anywhere I want. I'm free to
do so.

Post brexit, that freedom is lost.

You dont know that.

Am I wrong?

Yep, and about what freedom the turnip was talking about too.

On 2016-05-18 21:26, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 21:12:05 +0100, WeeBob wrote:

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

Depends on what would happen in the minimum two-years of post-Brexit vote
negotiations before we would actually leave.

We might stay in the EEA - which would automatically keep free movement.
We might not be EEA, but negotiate a deal which included free movement.
Or free movement might go.

If free movement goes, then there might still be visa-free travel, and
even residency both ways. Any visa deals with Schengen would have to be
Schengen-wide, because Schengen means single Visas in and out, so France
and Germany would have to be treated exactly the same as Poland, Latvia,
Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc.

Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus aren't - yet - Schengen countries, but are
on the road.

Croatia doesn't - yet - have free movement to the UK, because after being
one of only a couple of countries to immediately give free movement to
the 2004 accession countries, the UK opted to take the maximum 7yr
restriction for all new joiners.

Ireland isn't - yet - a Schengen country, because they have an opt-out
along with the UK. But Brexit may mean they decide to join Schengen.

Or Schengen might collapse... Then ALL bets are off.

On Wed, 18 May 2016 22:54:14 +0100, WeeBob wrote:

But this is all (entirely) speculation.

Right now, I can freely travel, work, loaf, anywhere I want. I'm free to
do so.

Post brexit, that freedom is lost. Am I wrong?

You might be. You might not be. Nobody yet knows. Nobody CAN yet know.

IF the vote on 23rd June is "Leave", then there's a minimum of two years
of negotiation before the UK actually leaves. It's the outcome of that
negotiation that is speculation at this point. Will the UK be an EEA
member? What will the deal say about free movement? What visa deals will
be agreed with Schengen?

I outlined the basic situation and options.

On 2016-05-18 21:26, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 21:12:05 +0100, WeeBob wrote:

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with
pro-freedom and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose
this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

Depends on what would happen in the minimum two-years of post-Brexit
vote negotiations before we would actually leave.

We might stay in the EEA - which would automatically keep free
movement. We might not be EEA, but negotiate a deal which included free
movement. Or free movement might go.

If free movement goes, then there might still be visa-free travel, and
even residency both ways. Any visa deals with Schengen would have to be
Schengen-wide, because Schengen means single Visas in and out, so
France and Germany would have to be treated exactly the same as Poland,
Latvia, Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc.

Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus aren't - yet - Schengen countries, but are
on the road.

Croatia doesn't - yet - have free movement to the UK, because after
being one of only a couple of countries to immediately give free
movement to the 2004 accession countries, the UK opted to take the
maximum 7yr restriction for all new joiners.

Ireland isn't - yet - a Schengen country, because they have an opt-out
along with the UK. But Brexit may mean they decide to join Schengen.

Or Schengen might collapse... Then ALL bets are off.

On 18/05/16 22:54, WeeBob wrote:
But this is all (entirely) speculation.

Right now, I can freely travel, work, loaf, anywhere I want. I'm free to
do so.

Post brexit, that freedom is lost. Am I wrong?



Yes.


--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

In article ,
WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work excessive
hours and no paid holidays, etc. The freedom to go back to the days where
a serf knows his place and is happy with any crumbs from his master's
table. That sort of thing.
He sure as eggs are eggs doesn't want the same freedoms for everyone.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 00:45:50 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work excessive
hours and no paid holidays, etc. The freedom to go back to the days where
a serf knows his place and is happy with any crumbs from his master's
table. That sort of thing.
He sure as eggs are eggs doesn't want the same freedoms for everyone.


You are full of crap as always.
Workers rights were begun here in the UK with the factory act in 1802 and in 1833 children's act.
Long before the rest of the world.

And do you suppose there were no workers rights pre 1970's in the UK?
Do you suppose there are no workers rights in Canada, USA, Australia etc?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_law#United_Kingdom

The French government is trying to ditch a lot of employment law right now because things are going wrong in the socialist paradise.

You are possibly the dopiest person corresponding here.

harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 May 2016 00:45:50 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In ,
wrote:

On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.


This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.


One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.


This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.


Doesn't it?

I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work excessive
hours and no paid holidays, etc. The freedom to go back to the days where
a serf knows his place and is happy with any crumbs from his master's
table. That sort of thing.
He sure as eggs are eggs doesn't want the same freedoms for everyone.


You are full of crap as always.
Workers rights were begun here in the UK with the factory act in 1802 and in 1833 children's act.
Long before the rest of the world.

And do you suppose there were no workers rights pre 1970's in the UK?
Do you suppose there are no workers rights in Canada, USA, Australia etc?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_law#United_Kingdom

The French government is trying to ditch a lot of employment law right now because things are going wrong in the socialist paradise.

You are possibly the dopiest person corresponding here.



And I see that the train unions are campagning for Brexit!

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work excessive
hours and no paid holidays, etc.
So paid holidays didn't exist before we joined the EU?
The freedom to go back to the days where
a serf knows his place and is happy with any crumbs from his master's
table. That sort of thing.
He sure as eggs are eggs doesn't want the same freedoms for everyone.

Your usual claptrap.
--
bert

On 19/05/16 10:32, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work excessive
hours and no paid holidays, etc.
So paid holidays didn't exist before we joined the EU?
The freedom to go back to the days where
a serf knows his place and is happy with any crumbs from his master's
table. That sort of thing.
He sure as eggs are eggs doesn't want the same freedoms for everyone.

Your usual claptrap.

Plowperson is so immersed in his Marxist view of life, that he cannot
actually understand that Capital that requires Labour to actually
generate wealth, is not going to **** all over that Labour.

In fact what Marxism in its British form did was to destroy the natural
capital/labour symbiosis that created wealth, so that it became cheaper
to dispense with labour and invest more capital. The so called 'working
class' no longer works, and no one at all really 'labours'. What we have
now is robots doing the work, and lefty****s out of work on benefits
buying the trashy products,

This has led to teh new form of Lefty****ism, whereby the Lefty****
governments, borrow money from the capitalist banks, to provide benefits
and make work public sector jobs for the lefty**** voters, so the banks
can do what they like, because the governments need them,. and crash
economies with impunity, and the lefty****s have to vote for a lefty****
government, because they are no longer educated to be for for anything
beyond life on benefits or working for the council or the Beeb etc, or
handing out parking tickets.

Of course it cant last, but that is where the real Marxist lefty****s
smile, because Marx told them that once they have destroyed society by
first going through communism - essentially state ownership and state
control of EVERYTHING - that too will pass and the ideal society will
emerge naturally after everything else is smashed to pieces. Just like
it has in Afghanistan, In Iraq, In Zimbabwe..in Venezuela....

Yup. That's where the EU is taking us. All to create a brave new world
of idealised Socialism, where Lefty****s Rule, and you get what you are
given, because 4 legs good, 2 legs bad, and its doublethink all the way
down.





--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 19/05/16 11:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political
discussions in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit
with pro-freedom and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work excessive
hours and no paid holidays, etc.

You think employed people here having paid holidays is down to the EU?
Only on planet Plowman.

Yeah, I remember my dad had a paid holiday, back in 1953.
And he voted for Churchill.


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
I'd guess what Turnip means is the freedom to be forced to work
excessive hours and no paid holidays, etc.

You think employed people here having paid holidays is down to the EU?

Under some circumstances, yes.

Only on planet Plowman.

Doubt you have much experience of the various states of 'employment'.

--
*It's not hard to meet expenses... they're everywhere.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"WeeBob" wrote in message
...
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions in
this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom and
I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

He's talking about the freedom of Britain to decide for itself what
to do policy wise, not freedom of movement of individuals around
europe.

And even if Britain does leave the EU, I bet Brits will
still be free to move anywhere they like in europe,
just like they are now, essentially because the
countries they mostly move to welcome them
because of the economic benefits they bring to
that country when they buy property there etc.

Its not as if those who choose to exist on benefits
in Britain show up in europe to put their hands out
for benefits there very much. The dead parrot does,
but not many do that.

Doesn't it?

Nope.

Rod Speed wrote:

And even if Britain does leave the EU, I bet Brits will
still be free to move anywhere they like in europe,
just like they are now, essentially because the
countries they mostly move to welcome them
because of the economic benefits they bring to
that country when they buy property there etc.

On the contrary, it is absolutely certain
that the EU will require that the UK allows free access
to EU citizens in return for UK free access to the EU.
This is the rule imposed on Norway and Switzerland,
and EU leaders have repeatedly stressed that this will remain the rule.

Your argument is completely null and void,
since the EU does not allow free access to US or Canadian citizens,
who would be even more likely to bring economic benefit to the EU.

In fact I am quite sure that if the UK did leave the EU
the UK government would enter into an agreement
identical to that of Norway and Switzerland.
It would be insanity not to.

It is always best to assume that people will do what they say they will do.

--
Timothy Murphy
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dubli

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 11:27:51 UTC+1, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:

And even if Britain does leave the EU, I bet Brits will
still be free to move anywhere they like in europe,
just like they are now, essentially because the
countries they mostly move to welcome them
because of the economic benefits they bring to
that country when they buy property there etc.

On the contrary, it is absolutely certain
that the EU will require that the UK allows free access
to EU citizens in return for UK free access to the EU.
This is the rule imposed on Norway and Switzerland,
and EU leaders have repeatedly stressed that this will remain the rule.

Your argument is completely null and void,
since the EU does not allow free access to US or Canadian citizens,
who would be even more likely to bring economic benefit to the EU.

In fact I am quite sure that if the UK did leave the EU
the UK government would enter into an agreement
identical to that of Norway and Switzerland.
It would be insanity not to.

It is always best to assume that people will do what they say they will do.

What total drivel.
Money talks. And after Germany, we are the largest economy in Europe.
We'll tell the EUSSR what our terms are.
Provided we don't have ****-fer-brains Camoron or one of his ilk negotiating.

Timothy Murphy wrote
Rod Speed wrote

And even if Britain does leave the EU, I bet Brits will
still be free to move anywhere they like in europe,
just like they are now, essentially because the
countries they mostly move to welcome them
because of the economic benefits they bring to
that country when they buy property there etc.

On the contrary, it is absolutely certain that the
EU will require that the UK allows free access to
EU citizens in return for UK free access to the EU.

Fantasy.

This is the rule imposed on Norway and Switzerland,

Those don't have anything like as many of their
nationals that contribute significantly to the economys
of EU countrys by choosing to buy property there etc.

and EU leaders have repeatedly
stressed that this will remain the rule.

That's pure bluff in an attempt to discourage Britain from leaving.

Your argument is completely null and void,

Even sillier than you usually manage.

since the EU does not allow free access to US or Canadian citizens,
who would be even more likely to bring economic benefit to the EU.

Not as far as them moving to EU countrys and buying property
there is concerned. Nothing even remotely like the numbers of
Brits that choose to do that in all of Spain, Italy and Greece etc.

In fact I am quite sure that if the UK did leave the EU
the UK government would enter into an agreement
identical to that of Norway and Switzerland.

Your surety is completely irrelevant.

Britain is a lot more important to the EU than Norway
and Switzerland are, on Airbus components, aircraft
engines and the numbers of Brits that buy property
in EU countrys alone.

It would be insanity not to.

It is always best to assume that people
will do what they say they will do.

Like hell it is with politicians. While ever their mouths
are moving, they are lying thru their ****ing teeth.

Cameron said he would reduce immigration, he lied
thru his ****ing teeth with non EU immigration, he
did absolutely nothing at all about that, even when
he didn't need to placate the LimpDems.

Tim Streater wrote:

In fact I am quite sure that if the UK did leave the EU
the UK government would enter into an agreement
identical to that of Norway and Switzerland.
It would be insanity not to.

It would be insanity to do so.

Are the Norwegians and Swiss insane?

It is always best to assume that people will do what they say they will
do.

Correct. And with BREXIT I at least am saying that we would *not* enter
into a mutual "free access" model of the type you describe.

Since you are unlikely to be Prime Minister you will be unable
to "do what you say" in this instance.

I notice that your leader, Boris Johnson, who probably would be PM,
does not make these rash promises to turn everything upside down.
I am sure he would make a deal with the EU that would more or less
leave everything as it is.


--
Timothy Murphy
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin

On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 21:12:07 UTC+1, WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

You really need to get involved.
If we remain in the EUSSR, we shall end up with Napoleonic law which means (among other stuff), you can be locked up in jail for no good reason while you are investigated for an indeterminate length of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napole...21st_centu ry

We freely moved about Europe long before the EU was thought of.
We actually need more border checks these days to keep out the nutters Merkel has let into Europe.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 18 May 2016 21:12:07 UTC+1, WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?

You really need to get involved.

Nope. The referendum will fail, you watch.

If we remain in the EUSSR, we shall end up with Napoleonic law

Even sillier than you usually manage.

which means (among other stuff), you can be locked up in jail for no good
reason while you are investigated for an indeterminate length of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napole...21st_centu ry

Corse nothing like that ever happens in Britain with terrorists, eh ?

We freely moved about Europe long before the EU was thought of.

You freely moved around the world for quite a while too, and
then things changed and you can't necessarily do that anymore.

We actually need more border checks these days to
keep out the nutters Merkel has let into Europe.

And to keep rabid bigots like you out
of any country with even half a clue.

On 18/05/16 21:12, WeeBob wrote:
On 2016-05-18 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing
harder than getting it back.

This baffles me. I try to stay away from all the political discussions
in this group, but if I'm correct you equate pro-brexit with pro-freedom
and I can't understand the logic of this.

One of the very facts about the UK in the EU is that we have the same
freedom of movement as everyone else. If we leave the EU, we lose this.

This means if the leave the EU, we lose this freedom.

Doesn't it?
No.
Schengen is not the EU.

I have free movement in S africa, at least for holiday purposes. We have
an arrangement with that country. The EU I suspect does not (could be
wrong here)


What is amazing me,. is how naive and parochial the remainers are. Its
as if the rest of the world with whom we trade and around which we
wander with relatively few restrictions, and for which if we have a
skill work permits and residence and bilateral health and trade
agreements are easily constructed simply does not exist. That if we
leave the EU we will fall into an isolationist pit of nothingness and be
cut off from everything.

I remember two teenagers sent by their school to a UKIP meeting : "BUt
if we leave Europe we wont be able to buy stuff'.

I mean, really, that is pretty much the level of the remain debate,
isn't it?



--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Schengen is not the EU.

I have free movement in S africa, at least for holiday purposes.

And WTF has that got to do with Schengen?

Just about every country in the world accepts tourists. Even welcomes them.

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply give
in and let other people walk all over us.

There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing harder
than getting it back.

Trivially easy to leave the EU any time a majority
decides that that is what they want Britain to do.

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 03:00:35 UTC+1, wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/16 16:49, Broadback wrote:
I am pro Brxit, but wither way I will be pleased when it is over as if
has become very invasive, and boring.

I had an Iranian GF once. Her family came over and asked me 'how long
before the Mullahs get thrown out of office and we get our country back'

That was in 1986. They are still there.

What a bore it is all this brexit, when its so much easier to simply give
in and let other people walk all over us.

There is nothing easier than giving away your freedom. And nothing harder
than getting it back.

Trivially easy to leave the EU any time a majority
decides that that is what they want Britain to do.

How hard would it be for say Iowa to leave the USA?
Because that is the future situation envisaged by the Euro-nuts.