Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

Wodney, obviously

On 3/17/2016 5:27 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

They did a pretty good job of insulating this listed building...

http://www.kingdomarchitecture.com/p...lding-society/

....and it only cost 'em £36million!

Nick

On 17/03/16 17:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?


See the Conservation Officer at the local council would be my next step.

Tim Watts Wrote in message:
On 17/03/16 17:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?


See the Conservation Officer at the local council would be my next step.


Yes, getting someone round from the listed building bit of the
LAShould be helpful. Not sure what advice as such he would get
from them on the specifics, but it would be useful to know what
they consider the important features of the building, and what
sort of things they would consider doable.

Eg I would imagine external insulation is out, internal might be a
possible, depending on what the interior is like. Windows would
very much depend on the existing ones I guess.

SPAB might have some useful advice

http://www.spab.org.uk/

And someone has already pointed to the Period Property forums.
--
--
Chris French


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 3/17/2016 5:58 PM, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/03/16 17:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already
has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?


See the Conservation Officer at the local council would be my next step.

+1. Not really enough information, need more details of construction.
It's possibly draught-proofing that is more the issue.

Don't expect to be allowed "proper" double glazing, other than secondary
inside the reveals.

On Thursday, 17 March 2016 17:27:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice

He could try the periodproperty.co.uk forums.

The cheapest way is probably to by an arctic sleeping bag from an army surplus shop, and get lots of cats.

Owain

On 17/03/2016 17:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

I know someone with one of those who suggests (in addition to the
sources mentioned) Historic England who he says have a booklet on -
mainly - the perils and pitfalls. (Work on listed buildings seems to be
mainly thus.)

He also pointed out that there's a reason they changed the law so listed
buildings can be sold without an EPC, and suggests your friend's
greatest need may well be lowered expectations

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Robin wrote:
He also pointed out that there's a reason they changed the law so listed
buildings can be sold without an EPC, and suggests your friend's
greatest need may well be lowered expectations

You may well be right. ;-) Moving from a modern house in the summer might
well be something of a shock when the winter comes.

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/03/2016 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
He also pointed out that there's a reason they changed the law so listed
buildings can be sold without an EPC, and suggests your friend's
greatest need may well be lowered expectations

You may well be right. ;-) Moving from a modern house in the summer might
well be something of a shock when the winter comes.


He obviously needs another hobby

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Robin wrote:
He also pointed out that there's a reason they changed the law so listed
buildings can be sold without an EPC, and suggests your friend's
greatest need may well be lowered expectations

You may well be right. ;-) Moving from a modern house in the summer might
well be something of a shock when the winter comes.

Sympathy. Our house is not that old (1880), and is not listed, but is
in a conservation area and a national park, so options are limited.
Having said that, I wouldn't want to insulate the outside, and doing the
inside would ruin all the existing plaster work.

To be honest, he is going to find it colder than a modern house
whatever. Priorities should be loft insulation, draught proofing and
secondary double glazing, depending on what is permitted.
--
Graeme

On 18/03/2016 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

PS

He's sent a link to a PDF of the Historic England booklet:

https://historicengland.org.uk/image...-framed-walls/

From a skim it confirms comments already made - e.g. about the
importance of the house "breathing" and filling gaps to cut down
draughts (although I guess even that may require esoteric mixtures of
lime et al).

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 18/03/2016 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

PS

He's sent a link to a PDF of the Historic England booklet:

https://historicengland.org.uk/image...-framed-walls/

From a skim it confirms comments already made - e.g. about the
importance of the house "breathing" and filling gaps to cut down
draughts (although I guess even that may require esoteric mixtures of
lime et al).

Thanks. English Heritage told him the only suitable materials to allow the
walls and frame to breathe properly were natural things like wool.

But I've passed all the info on anyway - so thanks again to all.

--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2016-03-19 14:14:19 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) said:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 18/03/2016 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

PS

He's sent a link to a PDF of the Historic England booklet:

https://historicengland.org.uk/image...-framed-walls/


From a skim it confirms comments already made - e.g. about the
importance of the house "breathing" and filling gaps to cut down
draughts (although I guess even that may require esoteric mixtures of
lime et al).

Thanks. English Heritage told him the only suitable materials to allow the
walls and frame to breathe properly were natural things like wool.

But I've passed all the info on anyway - so thanks again to all.

The alternative to leaving the house 'breathing' and costing a fortune
to heat is to block up all the draughts properly and then install
mechanical ventilation with heat recovery (MVHR). MVHR can transform
the air quality inside an old slightly damp building.

On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 5:27:26 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Sell and run.... Listed buildings are more trouble than they are worth IMHO.

On Thursday, 17 March 2016 17:27:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

First don't rush anything. He'll need to get properly informed about it all and pick the right course before doing anything.

Most likely candidate will be PIR board on the interior, but if there are period features in the plasterwork that will be out - and pretty much any insulation will be.

Re windows, the only likely options are repairs to draftproof, and carefully designed discreet secondary glazing.

Again, do not rush. What is allowed is generally very picky. Any purchaser of a listed building needs to understand what they're dealing with before purchase.


NT

On Thursday, 17 March 2016 17:27:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

Even buying the place was a bad move.
He has condemned himself to endless expense and repairs with some brain dead **** breathing down his neck.
Apart from appearance, these places have absolutely no upsides.
Even stopping draughts is next to impossible.

On 18/03/2016 08:18, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 17:27:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

Even buying the place was a bad move.
He has condemned himself to endless expense and repairs with some brain dead **** breathing down his neck.
Apart from appearance, these places have absolutely no upsides.
Even stopping draughts is next to impossible.

Secondary double glazing that doesn't affect the outside appearance and
loft insulation are the most obvious low hanging fruit. But you may have
to deal with bat roosts and other inconveniences in the loft which may
seriously limit the times when you can do active work up there.

I have seen some clever ceiling insulation that will work provided you
don't have feature beams or period plasterwork. Insulating the inside of
the walls is possible but in a period building with lime mortar and
quite possibly no damp coarse you could run into trouble with rising or
penetrating damp if you prevent it from breathing.

If you are super rich you can get away with murder and then pay the
fines as one Yorkshire property magnate did fairly recently.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Friday, 18 March 2016 09:18:23 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 17 March 2016 17:27:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

Even buying the place was a bad move.

Possibly.

He has condemned himself to endless expense and repairs
Our Grade II listed mud hut wasn't *particularly* expensive


with some brain dead **** breathing down his neck.
Well, if you approach the local conservation office with that sort of
attitude, it's not surprising they aren't very cooperative. If you
approach them as men and women of good will who have an important role
to play in protecting our built environment you may find them much
more helpful. (I did.)

Apart from appearance, these places have absolutely no upsides.
Err, you mean "apart from their massive upside they have no upside"?
I'd also add that some people enjoy being a part of history.

Even stopping draughts is next to impossible.
I didn't find it that hard to make a difference. (A carpet in the
living room over the suspended wood floor made a big difference.)

On 17/03/2016 17:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II listed
house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern one. And
wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has
and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?


Buy a thicker jumper!

Mike

In article , Muddymike
wrote:
On 17/03/2016 17:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II
listed house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern
one. And wants to improve the insulation drastically. I suggested he
tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has and they've
not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?


Buy a thicker jumper!

Or get into training by going to the Shetland Islands. When I went there
one July, I discoverd why they had invented Shetland Jumpers. ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:27:13 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II
listed house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern
one. And wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already
has and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

As with the traditional Irish navigation directions, "If I was going there
I wouldn't start from here!"

Before buying any listed building, the first thing is an in depth
interview with the local Conservation Officer.

That is, you doing the interview to decide if the person who holds the
right to all decisions over every small thing that you want to do is
someone who seems both reasonable and someone who you could get on with
long term. A sort of speed dating, really.

Too late for that, but worth asking about previous history - what has been
allowed and what has been denied over say the last 5 years.

If in doubt, flog it on during the summer.

Cheers

Dave R


--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

In article , David
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:27:13 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II
listed house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern
one. And wants to improve the insulation drastically. I suggested he
tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already has and they've
not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

As with the traditional Irish navigation directions, "If I was going
there I wouldn't start from here!"

Before buying any listed building, the first thing is an in depth
interview with the local Conservation Officer.

That is, you doing the interview to decide if the person who holds the
right to all decisions over every small thing that you want to do is
someone who seems both reasonable and someone who you could get on with
long term. A sort of speed dating, really.

Too late for that, but worth asking about previous history - what has
been allowed and what has been denied over say the last 5 years.

If in doubt, flog it on during the summer.

A young man I know bought a listed cottage. He needs to use tradition
building materials (lime mortar, etc) but is allowed to use 21st Century
electrical fittings. It's a mess.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Friday, 18 March 2016 11:51:01 UTC, charles wrote:

A young man I know bought a listed cottage. He needs to use tradition
building materials (lime mortar, etc) but is allowed to use 21st Century
electrical fittings. It's a mess.

It's odd. I know/knew of one building where the period electrics were a definite part of its character, yet the electrics seem to be legally excepted from listing restrictions. Like any other part of the building, such old electrics could be fixed and RCD added, just at greater cost than sticking new white plastic in.


NT

On 18/03/16 12:20, wrote:
On Friday, 18 March 2016 11:51:01 UTC, charles wrote:

A young man I know bought a listed cottage. He needs to use tradition
building materials (lime mortar, etc) but is allowed to use 21st Century
electrical fittings. It's a mess.

It's odd. I know/knew of one building where the period electrics were a definite part of its character, yet the electrics seem to be legally excepted from listing restrictions. Like any other part of the building, such old electrics could be fixed and RCD added, just at greater cost than sticking new white plastic in.


NT

I once witnessed an amusing dialogue between the conservation Office,
and the Building Inspector, as we stood around a completely rotten
staircase that had been removed and was lying on the floor of a grade II
cottage under reconstruction.

"I'm sorry, that staircase is completely unfit for purpose, the treads
are too narrow and the rise is too steep and there isn't any clearance
at the top so you are in ganger of banging your head BEFORE you fall
down it"

"But the is no room to fit a modern staircase without totally
compromising the whole character of the cottage and by the time you have
there wont be any room left in the ground floor: that staircase has to
be replaced as it was"

"I can't allow a 'material alteration' that is incompatible with
building regulations "

"Okay what isn't a 'material alteration'"?

"well like a 'repair"

"Ok so if we take that nail, and that piece of wood, or the left hand
part of it anyway which isn't rotten and 'repair' the staircase around
it, that's not a 'material alteration'"?

"No, that's fine".

"How about if we make it a bit safer and put a banister rail up?"

"Nope, that's a 'material alteration'. It goes back as it was or not at
all."

"So I can't make something better, if it still doesn't comply with
building regulation? I can only leave it as unsafe as it was?"

"Lady, I don't make the rules".


--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On 18/03/2016 12:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/03/16 12:20, wrote:
On Friday, 18 March 2016 11:51:01 UTC, charles wrote:

A young man I know bought a listed cottage. He needs to use tradition
building materials (lime mortar, etc) but is allowed to use 21st Century
electrical fittings. It's a mess.

It's odd. I know/knew of one building where the period electrics were
a definite part of its character, yet the electrics seem to be legally
excepted from listing restrictions. Like any other part of the
building, such old electrics could be fixed and RCD added, just at
greater cost than sticking new white plastic in.


NT

I once witnessed an amusing dialogue between the conservation Office,
and the Building Inspector, as we stood around a completely rotten
staircase that had been removed and was lying on the floor of a grade II
cottage under reconstruction.

"I'm sorry, that staircase is completely unfit for purpose, the treads
are too narrow and the rise is too steep and there isn't any clearance
at the top so you are in ganger of banging your head BEFORE you fall
down it"

"But the is no room to fit a modern staircase without totally
compromising the whole character of the cottage and by the time you have
there wont be any room left in the ground floor: that staircase has to
be replaced as it was"

"I can't allow a 'material alteration' that is incompatible with
building regulations "

"Okay what isn't a 'material alteration'"?

"well like a 'repair"

"Ok so if we take that nail, and that piece of wood, or the left hand
part of it anyway which isn't rotten and 'repair' the staircase around
it, that's not a 'material alteration'"?

"No, that's fine".

"How about if we make it a bit safer and put a banister rail up?"

"Nope, that's a 'material alteration'. It goes back as it was or not at
all."

"So I can't make something better, if it still doesn't comply with
building regulation? I can only leave it as unsafe as it was?"

"Lady, I don't make the rules".


You're almost quoting word for word the conversation I had with a
building inspector when I renovated our last house.

Mike

In article ,
wrote:
On Friday, 18 March 2016 11:51:01 UTC, charles wrote:

A young man I know bought a listed cottage. He needs to use tradition
building materials (lime mortar, etc) but is allowed to use 21st
Century electrical fittings. It's a mess.

It's odd. I know/knew of one building where the period electrics were a
definite part of its character, yet the electrics seem to be legally
excepted from listing restrictions. Like any other part of the building,
such old electrics could be fixed and RCD added, just at greater cost
than sticking new white plastic in.

would you opt for lead sheathed VIR cable?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Friday, 18 March 2016 13:46:02 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 18 March 2016 11:51:01 UTC, charles wrote:

A young man I know bought a listed cottage. He needs to use tradition
building materials (lime mortar, etc) but is allowed to use 21st
Century electrical fittings. It's a mess.

It's odd. I know/knew of one building where the period electrics were a
definite part of its character, yet the electrics seem to be legally
excepted from listing restrictions. Like any other part of the building,
such old electrics could be fixed and RCD added, just at greater cost
than sticking new white plastic in.

would you opt for lead sheathed VIR cable?

It wasn't leaded VIR. These days good earthing is not the only way to achieve reasonable shock protection.


NT

Make friends with your Building Control officer, ask them for advice etc.

My house I cant insualte the outside so am sticking kingspan seconds on the inside, the 6" gap between ceiling and floors are fiddly to do, but often leak where joists etc go into the wall.

This book is great:
http://www.amazon.com/Insulate-Weath.../dp/1561585548
In Canada they have much greater temperature differences between inside and out!

[george]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:27:13 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Pal I know from a car forum has a 400 year old oak framed Grade II
listed house. Not had it for that long, and moved to it from a modern
one. And wants to improve the insulation drastically.
I suggested he tried English Heritage for advice, but seems he already
has and they've not been much help.

It's something I know absolutely nothing about. Anyone on here got some
pointers on where he'd get decent advice?

Talk to the people at Ty Mawr.
https://www.lime.org.uk/