Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!

Google throws up a thread on MSE about them which has been heavily censored, clearly because of material which Fischer did not want to be in the public domain. The thread also contains many suspicious posts from people claiming to be satisfied customers whose only posts are to that thread, and who all repeat the same strange conception of physics, electricity, and thermodynamics which Fischer itself has.

There is also an even more suspicious thread on something called trustpilot..

I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature of Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by Fischer ...

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage


Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:05:10 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!


It is not just the Daily Express, there some magazines aimed at older
readers which by looking at the contents of the one my Mother tried
for a while are a sort of " Womans Realms " for the older woman whose
life has progressed from push chairs to stair lifts.
They usually carry adverts for these storage heaters from various
German suppliers with the implication that it some wonderful new
technology that the Germans are good at.
It is a commercial magazine so is bound to accept adverts that are not
actually misleading, worse though I have seen the same adverts in
those free news sheets that some councils post out to tell you what
they are spending money on or how many potholes they have fixed.
That I think is morally wrong as the adverts are clearly aimed at
getting money out of elderly people by bamboozle them with bull****
when the same news sheet on another page is warning the same target
audience to beware of scams.

Last year at a county show there was a sales man drumming up bushiness
for one of the brands and I asked him front of some of his targets how
his product could be more efficient than available at screwfix for a
couple of hundred per heater and he told me " ours has a better
thermostat , it's more accurate". In what way? I asked.
Ours don't let the temperature rise above the setting and switch off
more often and that's how they make the savings.
Ok ,so you have a thermostat whose hysteresis is narrow and switches
frequently , how come that costs a couple of hundred pounds.
I think he was fed up with me then and turned away,to be fair to the
Germans that was from a UK manufacturer who has copied what they
describe as Baked Kiln Clay ( That's a brick isn't it) techonology
from the Germans and also say that some of the German firms have now
reduced quality to cut costs. Sods all of them.

G.Harman

On 31/01/2016 15:34, pamela wrote:


That thread is too long for me to read in detail but I did spot a link to
this Advertising Standards Authority ruling:

https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjud...r_Future-Heat-
UK/SHP_ADJ_216000.aspx


Why do they use such flowery language in their judgements rather than
just saying that the adverts are a load of BS?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
...
Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express,

I have not had the chance to call in to see my parents today and peruse
their copy of the DE. Did you manage to have a look at the front page of
your mother's copy and can you tell me how Di and Maddie are doing?


--
Adam

On 31/01/2016 13:05, Martin Pentreath wrote:
Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!

Google throws up a thread on MSE about them which has been heavily censored, clearly because of material which Fischer did not want to be in the public domain. The thread also contains many suspicious posts from people claiming to be satisfied customers whose only posts are to that thread, and who all repeat the same strange conception of physics, electricity, and thermodynamics which Fischer itself has.

There is also an even more suspicious thread on something called trustpilot.

I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature of Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by Fischer ...

Bit like the (compulsory) EPC I had done on Friday - which said that I
(that is my buyer) can save £129 over three years by spending £800 -
£1200 on 'High Heat Retention Storage Heaters'. Perhaps it would be
more efficent to turn them off or wrap them in a duvet. Still never
mind it only cost me £96 to be told that!!

Peter

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage


Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Not when you want to charge it at the lowest cost
and use the stored heat when you need that heat.

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 17:00:19 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage


Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Not when you want to charge it at the lowest cost
and use the stored heat when you need that heat.


Yes, I referenced 'storage heaters' above your reply but I wasn't
talking about them (even though they still apply to my point).

Cheers, T i m

I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their efficiency. as
has been said they are only efficient when the electricity they use is much
cheaper than that used when the heat is actually needed. We are back at
needing a system to store electricity efficiently.
If that could be done cheaply and compact enough then lumps of hot rock like
these would be a thing of the past. I still feel that the cost to buy these
heaters is scandal when you look inside and find how crude they are. One
would expect at the very least all the hot bricks should be surrounded by
space shuttle type thermal tiles, but no, and the heat output adjuster is
normally just some metal flaps on the top operated by a knob and a cam.
Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm not bothered about the rip
off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not fit them if I was paying for
them myself.
Brian

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage


Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Cheers, T i m





--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:51:20 +0000, Peter Andrews wrote:

I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature
of
Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by
Fischer ...

Get cards through the door about similar electric heating systems.
Most of which seem to be thermostatic panel heaters and the "savings"
are derived from an "apple and pears" comparison. Befo 40 year old
conventional barely controlled storeage heaters and E7 tarrif with
low insulation levels/draught proofing. After: thermostaic & timer
controlled panel heaters cheap normal tarrif and improved
insulation/draught proofing.

Bit like the (compulsory) EPC I had done on Friday - which said that I
(that is my buyer) can save £129 over three years by spending £800 -
£1200 on 'High Heat Retention Storage Heaters'.

I agree the economics don't make sense but when a heater fails it's
probably worth replacing with a "High Heat Retention" one. They are
expensive though but theoretically do improve the comfort level. ie
the room isn't stinking hot at 0700/0800 and freezing by 2100.

I've been looking at HHR's one of our heaters isn't working properly
(it's only drawing 66% of the power it should be and AFAICT only has
a single element...). There is only one maker but they are sold under
three brands Dimplex, Creda and Heatstore, gives the impression of
"competition". There is lots of marketing puff but real information
about how much longer than a conventional storeage heater they stay
hot for is very thin on the ground.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 01/02/2016 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their
efficiency. as has been said they are only efficient when the
electricity they use is much cheaper than that used when the heat is
actually needed. We are back at needing a system to store electricity
efficiently.



Storage heaters are less efficient than other electric heaters because
they tend to leak heat when it isn't needed.

However they are cost effective because they use cheaper rate electricity.

If you want to save CO2 rather than cash then storage heaters are
probably a bad idea and will get worse as the nukes go offline as base
load doesn't really need storage heaters to keep it going.

Brian Gaff wrote

I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their efficiency.
as has been said they are only efficient when the electricity they use is
much cheaper than that used when the heat is actually needed. We are back
at needing a system to store electricity efficiently.

If that could be done cheaply and compact enough then lumps of hot rock
like these

Mine are actually metal bricks with uneven sides so there
are air channels when installed in a pile inside the heater.

would be a thing of the past. I still feel that the cost to buy these
heaters is scandal when you look inside and find how crude they are. One
would expect at the very least all the hot bricks should be surrounded by
space shuttle type thermal tiles,

Mine are. Interesting stuff.

but no, and the heat output adjuster is normally just some metal flaps on
the top operated by a knob and a cam.

Mine has a cylindrical fan at the bottom and a proper thermostat control.

Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm not bothered about the
rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not fit them if I was paying
for them myself.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage


Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Cheers, T i m





--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!

On Sunday, 31 January 2016 13:05:14 UTC, Martin Pentreath wrote:
Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!

Google throws up a thread on MSE about them which has been heavily censored, clearly because of material which Fischer did not want to be in the public domain. The thread also contains many suspicious posts from people claiming to be satisfied customers whose only posts are to that thread, and who all repeat the same strange conception of physics, electricity, and thermodynamics which Fischer itself has.

There is also an even more suspicious thread on something called trustpilot.

I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature of Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by Fischer ...

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period.
There are a lot of ******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 31 January 2016 13:05:14 UTC, Martin Pentreath wrote:
Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly
enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply
ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of
older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw
an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage
heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they
will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what
they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!

Google throws up a thread on MSE about them which has been heavily
censored, clearly because of material which Fischer did not want to be in
the public domain. The thread also contains many suspicious posts from
people claiming to be satisfied customers whose only posts are to that
thread, and who all repeat the same strange conception of physics,
electricity, and thermodynamics which Fischer itself has.

There is also an even more suspicious thread on something called
trustpilot.

I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature of
Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by Fischer ...

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period.
There are a lot of ******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy is by
improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out during
unwanted periods is not totally wasted.

It can be when there is no one in the house to use it.

On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

On 02/02/16 11:58, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


for some values of 'efficient'




The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


It may do, if it displaces other forms of heating


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gotta bring those Nazis in a all the time haven't you? ;-0)
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

Presumably because the space panel stuff is a lot cheaper and lasts forever.

On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.
Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.

On 01/02/2016 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:

by a knob and a cam. Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm
not bothered about the rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not

The 'government' didn't pay for them. They were paid for by me and other
taxpayers, i.e. the people who don't qualify for 'free' anything and
also have to fund the full cost of their own heating installation and
running costs.

On 03/02/16 13:05, Andrew wrote:
On 01/02/2016 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:

by a knob and a cam. Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm
not bothered about the rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not

The 'government' didn't pay for them. They were paid for by me and other
taxpayers, i.e. the people who don't qualify for 'free' anything and
also have to fund the full cost of their own heating installation and
running costs.

The government never pays for anything. In fact it charges you
commission on having the tax payers pay for it.


--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 03/02/2016 07:07, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.

I bet there are a few around here that think you are a far bigger one.

Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.


They are electric heaters and you quite clearly claimed all electric
heaters are the same 100% efficiency (period) which they clearly are
not. If you don't understand these things then don't make claims.

On 31/01/2016 14:17, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

PS The MSE thread:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...6223#topofpage

Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

That and a bit of common sense. Adverts for "bargain offers" in the back
of Sunday newspapers need to be treated with great caution.

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

It could be done by using a salt based phase change system where the
freezing of the supersaturated salt solution clamps the temperature for
a longish period of time. Snag is they tend to separate out and/or
expand on freezing so damaging their containment. It isn't ideal for
domestic use...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therma...alt_technology

Some varieties of reusable hand warmer exploit this trick.

You can do a bit better with modern insulation tricks to prevent heat
escaping when it isn't wanted but basically with electric storage
heaters you are buying very overpriced firebricks in an ugly metal box.

This lot (page 6) have some typical solids heat capacities listed:

http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~wood...properties.pdf

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

It made sense back in the 1960's with the free nuclear electricity we
were promised that would be "too cheap to meter" as night baseload.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Electric fan heater comes closest to that ideal of warming just the air
and fairly quickly too.

But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.

A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
middle - I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 14:28:57 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

snip

Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?

That and a bit of common sense.

;-)

Adverts for "bargain offers" in the back
of Sunday newspapers need to be treated with great caution.

Quite. ;-(

I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).

It could be done by using a salt based phase change system where the
freezing of the supersaturated salt solution clamps the temperature for
a longish period of time. Snag is they tend to separate out and/or
expand on freezing so damaging their containment. It isn't ideal for
domestic use...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therma...alt_technology

Neat.

Some varieties of reusable hand warmer exploit this trick.

What are the ones you can boil in water to turn back into a liquid but
when activated (bending an integrated capsule), turn solid again and
get hot?

You can do a bit better with modern insulation tricks to prevent heat
escaping when it isn't wanted but basically with electric storage
heaters you are buying very overpriced firebricks in an ugly metal box.

Ahem, the ones we have are actually quite neat. ;-)

This lot (page 6) have some typical solids heat capacities listed:

http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~wood...properties.pdf

book marked

Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.

It made sense back in the 1960's with the free nuclear electricity we
were promised that would be "too cheap to meter" as night baseload.

Makes sense.

I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?

Electric fan heater comes closest to that ideal of warming just the air
and fairly quickly too.

Yup, that was what was in my mind, excepting the energy 'lost' in the
motor to push the air around (but that does avoid stratification). ;-)

But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.

Ours even take that further. They monitor the air temperature and that
of the core. They then delay the start of the charge period the
longest they can to ensure they have their maximum charge by the end
of the cheap rate period (rather than them heating up fully as soon as
the E7 switches in then having to top up during the test of the E7
period).

A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
middle -

And some very old buildings were designed with that sort of idea in
mind.

I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.

Well, in defence of that and considering the simplicity of the design
and controls, the ones we have are pretty transparent and efficient.

The slimline case is mounted away from the wall (built in brackets)
and then the bricks are pretty well insulated in their inner box. When
the stat has them damped shut there is very little convected or
radiated heat from them. On the coldest of days (especially when
following a similarly cold night) they are still giving off heat that
evening (to a point where we have never felt cold).

We have left them on 365 and they only come into play when they need
to (so stone cold all summer etc).

I did replace the smallest one in our daughters bedroom with the
smallest balanced flue wall mounted gas fire I could find and whilst
that's not the fastest heater in the world it does get and hold her
(North facing, 3 solid 9" external walls) box room pretty warm (too
warm for us often, even on I of III). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 03/02/16 14:28, Martin Brown wrote:
But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.

A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
middle - I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.

+1.

You need to design a house round heat storage, and of course that means
a lot of mass in the house one way or another. Today's construction
tends to be the more 'well padded cardboard' type house which warms up
quickly, but cools fast as well. Ideal for people who are out all day..


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 13:55:45 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 03/02/2016 07:07, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.

I bet there are a few around here that think you are a far bigger one.

Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.


They are electric heaters and you quite clearly claimed all electric
heaters are the same 100% efficiency (period) which they clearly are
not. If you don't understand these things then don't make claims.

Heat pumps create no heat.
They transfer it from one place to another.

So they do not have an "efficiency" because no energy is converted from one form to another.

You are one of the ******* that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy...ion_efficiency

On 03/02/2016 17:04, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 13:55:45 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 03/02/2016 07:07, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.

I bet there are a few around here that think you are a far bigger one.

Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.


They are electric heaters and you quite clearly claimed all electric
heaters are the same 100% efficiency (period) which they clearly are
not. If you don't understand these things then don't make claims.

Heat pumps create no heat.

You claimed to be an efficiency engineer but don't know that all the
electricity put into a heat pump ends up as heat?

They transfer it from one place to another.

And they use energy to do so, energy that ends up as heat.


So they do not have an "efficiency" because no energy is converted from one form to another.

********.


You are one of the ******* that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy...ion_efficiency


Have you read that?

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 13:55:45 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 03/02/2016 07:07, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those
that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather
and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats
the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater
insulation?

Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.

I bet there are a few around here that think you are a far bigger one.

Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.


They are electric heaters and you quite clearly claimed all electric
heaters are the same 100% efficiency (period) which they clearly are
not. If you don't understand these things then don't make claims.

Heat pumps create no heat.
They transfer it from one place to another.

So they do not have an "efficiency"

They do actually because not all pumps pump heat as effiently as others do.

because no energy is converted from one form to another.

That is just one measure of efficiency.

You are one of the ******* that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy...ion_efficiency

You don't either.

On 03/02/2016 17:04, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 13:55:45 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 03/02/2016 07:07, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
******* here who do not understand what efficiency is.

Obviously including you.

Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.


The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.

and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.


What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.


Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
building does not make it useful.


I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?

Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.

I bet there are a few around here that think you are a far bigger one.

Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.


They are electric heaters and you quite clearly claimed all electric
heaters are the same 100% efficiency (period) which they clearly are
not. If you don't understand these things then don't make claims.

Heat pumps create no heat.

You really are clueless. Of course heat pumps create waste heat in the
compressor and as resistive losses in the motor windings try touching
the radiator on the back of your fridge or its motor.

A Peltier device which is amongst the purest heat pumps with no moving
parts will get mad hot from internal resistive losses if you don't
provide it with adequate heat sinking to dissipate the internal heat.

If you have a ground source heat pump or an air source one (not such a
good idea in the UK) as they ice up in winter just when you need them
for heating then the heat pump moves more heat into the house than would
be obtained by a simple resistive heater of the same wattage.

Groundsource ones on a domestic scale seem to be something of a con
since the ongoing maintenance costs seem to dominate any savings and you
would have to be in the house 24/7 to stand any chance of breakeven.

They transfer it from one place to another.

So they do not have an "efficiency" because no energy is converted from one form to another.

*Everything* has a thermodynamic efficiency invariably less then 100%
unless it is an ideal reversible process and they are only theoretical.
Real motors have bearing friction, noise and other losses and the flow
in pipes and pumps is subject to friction and turbulence.

You are one of the ******* that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy...ion_efficiency

If the objective is to warm up the air then a heat pump can provide more
heat out than any resistive heater. So in the naive way of looking at it
the thing has a net gain on energy used to energy delivered as warm air.
They work pretty well in cold dry continental climates.

But it is just a heat engine being used to do work by moving heat from a
colder to a hotter body against the natural thermodynamic flow. How
efficiently depends on the temperature difference between hot and cold.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

I started researching into these guys as an advert popped up saying they have installed in 29 000 homes. Their website seemed to make a load of false claims and then I found they have had an Advertising Standards Authority ruling against them every year for the last 4 years. How they can be allowed to continue doing this is amazing. I guess I must be cynical as Trust Pilot has nearly 800 positive reviews from their very happy customers :-)

replying to damduck-egg, Amanda wrote:
We had a salesman Gary he was here for over 2 hours! He quoted us £3750 for
two radiators, with the interest it was £4233!!! We was nearly signing then I
thought this is ridiculous amount to warm up one room! He then got s bit nasty
and said could we not afford it!!! We are in are forties god help these old
people!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...s-1104362-.htm

replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
to grind?
So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
My own father is 86, but I do not treat him like a child because he is getting
on a bit. You obviously have a thing about things being expensive, which
usually means that you are a low achiever, and probably a bit skint.
I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
Buying German technology and engineering always pays. The two Mercedes on my
drive are testament to that!
Get a life Martin, better still get a job?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...s-1104362-.htm

On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 12:14:01 GMT, Russell
m wrote:

replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
to grind?

One should also check the date of the message concerned, by any
stretch of the imagination waiting one and a half years to reply is a
tad excessive.

So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?

According to the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA), who seem to
have regular dealings with the peddlers of these overpriced storage
heaters they seem to be there to mislead anyone, not just the elderly.

I have Fischer heaters in my house.

Oh dear, no wonder you are a bit embarrassed.

They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.

Their heaters are a clay block with electric heating elements, how
does this put them " light years" ahead of a Dimplex heater which is a
clay block with electric heating elements?

As the ASA said in one of the many complaints they have upheld about
this company "we had not seen any evidence in support of the claim
that the advertisers' product offered "up to 40% savings". We
therefore concluded that the basis of the claim was not clear and ad
(b) was likely to mislead."

Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
Buying German technology and engineering always pays.

From a real user : "The proof of the pudding with Fischer’s claims on
efficiency is whether they are willing to defend them against evidence
to the contrary. I have had a Fischer system in my flat for the last
four years and am now selling the property. A requirement for selling
in Scotland is that the seller has a home report and Energy
Performance Certificate prepared by a RICS-approved surveyor which are
made available to anyone expressing an interest in buying. The EPC I
received states replacing the Fischer system (which cost almost £6000)
with high heat retention storage heaters at a cost of £1600-2400 would
save £1995 over three years.

I emailed Fischer with this information asking for comments and
received no reply. After more emails and four telephone calls with
repeated promises an engineer would call back to discuss ‘when he gets
back from lunch’ and ‘in a few minutes’, I finally received a call
from a Fischer engineer who committed to speak to the surveyor. He did
not."

The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!

I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
manufacturers, means you need a spare?

On Friday, 7 July 2017 13:14:05 UTC+1, Russell wrote:
replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
to grind?
So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
My own father is 86, but I do not treat him like a child because he is getting
on a bit. You obviously have a thing about things being expensive, which
usually means that you are a low achiever, and probably a bit skint.
I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
Buying German technology and engineering always pays. The two Mercedes on my
drive are testament to that!
Get a life Martin, better still get a job?

Some of us understand the engineering, ie how it works. They're just daftly overpriced low power heaters. How embarrassing for you that you were conned.


NT

On 07/07/2017 13:14, Russell wrote:
I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters.

Are they 'very efficient' ?.

How about more efficient than 'storage heaters' ?.

Anyone who replaces gas central heating with Fischer
electric panel heaters believing that they will save
money is either utterly deluded, plain stupid,
easily conned, or at the age when dementia is
setting in.

And the last of those four is the main 'business
model' for so many companies whose sole aim seems
to be to con people.

On 07/07/17 16:56, Andrew wrote:
On 07/07/2017 13:14, Russell wrote:
I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters.

Are they 'very efficient' ?.

How about more efficient than 'storage heaters' ?.

Anyone who replaces gas central heating with Fischer
electric panel heaters believing that they will save
money is either utterly deluded, plain stupid,
easily conned, or at the age when dementia is
setting in.

And the last of those four is the main 'business
model' for so many companies whose sole aim seems
to be to con people.

And Jeremy Corbynh. Lets not forget him


--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On Friday, 7 July 2017 16:59:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
utterly deluded, plain stupid,
easily conned, or at the age when dementia is
setting in.
And Jeremy Corbynh. Lets not forget him

Isn't Jeremy Corbin "pick any two of the above"?

Owain

On Friday, 7 July 2017 14:49:03 UTC+1, Peter Parry wrote:
... The EPC I
received states replacing the Fischer system (which cost almost £6000)
with high heat retention storage heaters at a cost of £1600-2400 would
save £1995 over three years.

Interesting -- and it's rare that an EPC-suggested improvement offers actual value for money!

Owain

On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 14:48:54 +0100, Peter Parry wrote:

The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!

I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
manufacturers, means you need a spare?

The 2 Mercedes and the glowing testimonial suggest to me that the OP is a
Fischer rep! Pass the salt

--
TOJ.

"The Other John" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 14:48:54 +0100, Peter Parry wrote:

The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!

I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
manufacturers, means you need a spare?

The 2 Mercedes and the glowing testimonial suggest to me that the OP is a
Fischer rep! Pass the salt

I always get a bit pee-ed off when an Estate Agent rolls up in an expensive
car

Given the competitive nature of the market due to internet companies getting
more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car coming from?

tim