What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be ideal and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply but appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest discharge and eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?

Thanks!

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 14:33:49 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be
ideal and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant
permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply
but appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest
discharge and eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less
than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

I think you've covered the options and got the pluses and minuses.

I think you will struggle to get permission for a new septic tank.

I used to have a micro-sewage plant. We had it emptied every year, but
I'm not sure it needed it (three people living in a house - probably more
volume through it than you will have: baths, dishwasher, washing machine).
It would keep tripping out the RCD in wet weather, but I fixed that by
replacing the cable. Other than that, no trouble.

I would have expected you to need power of some sort at a workshop.
The power demands of a micro-sewage plant are not high (Klargester
claim 1.3kWh/d). You might be able to manage on solar or wind + a battery
.... particularly if you could recharge from a genset. OTOH, beware a
Christmas shutdown.

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be
ideal and requires maintenance :-/

Depends on the type. The Clivus Multrum claims to only need emptying every 2-10 years depending on the tank size, as the composting is done inside the tank and it can use a foam water flush.

http://www.clivusmultrum.co.uk/CompostingTanksUK.php

Dunno about the cost.

Owain

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be ideal and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply but appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest discharge and eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?

Thanks!

A micro sewage plant is only a septic tank with further processing on the effluent discharge to improve clarity.
This often takes the form of a reed bed.
This is something you can rig up yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_bed#Treatment_ponds

It still needs regular emptying. I empty mine every five years.

You missed an option which is "cesspit". Often cunningly converted to septic tank unofficially.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesspit
Or done entirely on the QT. Depending on how public the site is and who's watching.

Or cunningly upgrade existing facility.

harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises
without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be ideal
and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant
permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply but
appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest discharge and
eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5
people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?

Thanks!

A micro sewage plant is only a septic tank with further processing on the
effluent discharge to improve clarity.
This often takes the form of a reed bed.
This is something you can rig up yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_bed#Treatment_ponds

It still needs regular emptying. I empty mine every five years.

Reed beds aren't without their problems and dangers.

http://www.wte-ltd.co.uk/reed_bed_sewage_treatment.html

Tim

On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:07:34 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

A micro sewage plant is only a septic tank with further processing on
the effluent discharge to improve clarity.
This often takes the form of a reed bed.

No that is septic tank with reed bed of the outflow.

A septic tank use anerobic processes to break down the muck and is
passive. The out flow is not very pleasant and is normally routed to
a beneath surface soak away network.

A micro sewage plant use aerobic processes to break down the muck and
requires power for the compressor to airate the contents and to drive
the stirrer. The out flow is (should be) clean enough to be
discharged on the surface or to a water course.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:50:47 +0000, Jonno wrote:

Adam Aglionby scribbled


What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises
without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be ideal
and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant
permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply but
appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest discharge
and eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5
people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?

Thanks!


**** in the woods ?


Woodent that be a composting toilet?

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises
without a mains or any sewerage connection?

Dog-poo bags and everyone takes their own home at the end of the day?

Owain

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 19:43:04 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:07:34 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

A micro sewage plant is only a septic tank with further processing on
the effluent discharge to improve clarity.
This often takes the form of a reed bed.

No that is septic tank with reed bed of the outflow.

A septic tank use anerobic processes to break down the muck and is
passive. The out flow is not very pleasant and is normally routed to
a beneath surface soak away network.

A micro sewage plant use aerobic processes to break down the muck and
requires power for the compressor to airate the contents and to drive
the stirrer. The out flow is (should be) clean enough to be
discharged on the surface or to a water course.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Reed beds also use aerobic processes.
No power/fancy equipment needed but takes up more space.

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 20:43:04 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
A micro sewage plant use aerobic processes to break down the muck and
requires power for the compressor to aerate the contents and to drive
the stirrer. The out flow is (should be) clean enough to be
discharged on the surface or to a water course.

My Klargester had no compressor. The aeration was caused by disks (about
1m diameter) which were half in the waste and half in the air. They
rotated round (slowly - once every ?30s?). The disks had a bio-film
growing on them, and the rotation kept them moist and aerated. One of the
disks had a scoop about the size of a mug which poured a mugful of waste
per revolution from the dirty side to the clean side which would entrain
a little more air.

On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:37:57 AM UTC, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 20:43:04 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
A micro sewage plant use aerobic processes to break down the muck and
requires power for the compressor to aerate the contents and to drive
the stirrer. The out flow is (should be) clean enough to be
discharged on the surface or to a water course.

My Klargester had no compressor. The aeration was caused by disks (about
1m diameter) which were half in the waste and half in the air. They
rotated round (slowly - once every ?30s?). The disks had a bio-film
growing on them, and the rotation kept them moist and aerated. One of the
disks had a scoop about the size of a mug which poured a mugful of waste
per revolution from the dirty side to the clean side which would entrain
a little more air.

Thanks for all the input, gave me a few avenues to explore further.

From what have learned so far , composting toilets are a licence to print money for people who used to just make garden sheds, now a 4X4 pent roof is 1795 + VAT if supplied with an earth floor and some buckets....

The Clivus system looks good but suspecting its going to be even more expensive than the 4X4 earth floor pent roof.

Thanks for comment on septic tanks and following Klargester links, distributed by Kingspan, Enviroment Agency at least in England is banning their use after 2020 , will have to check on Scottish regulations, cess pits are already banned.

http://www.kingspanenviro.com/brands...es-regulations

Power, water and a drain field or water course shouldn`t be an issue on site currently looking at, there may be a possibility of getting together with the neighbours, who do have septic tanks if they are going to have to be replaced.

In meantime chemical seems to be the expedient choice.

On 19 Nov 2015 12:29:58 GMT, Huge wrote:

- Septic tanks are *not* being banned.

I've yet to follow and read your link.

Even ones whose outflow is on the surface rather than underground? I
also dedected the scare story marketing hype but the satement:

"If you have a septic tank that discharges directly to a surface
water you will need to replace or upgrade your treatment system by 1
January 2020, or when you sell your property if before this date."

Is pretty definative. Of course it omits what is meant by "replace or
upgrade", the inference being you'll need to replace with a
Klargester but "upgrade" could just be bung the outflow underground
into a drainage field.

- There is *no* general requirement to upgrade to a package treatment
plant when selling a house after January 2015.

It doesn't say there is, except if you have septic tank with a
surface outflow. Your marketing bull**** filter has failed, you need
to replace it with a Klargester. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , Huge
writes

have just sold my house and bought another
house,

Well done that man! Hope it was the one you wanted.

--
Graeme

On Thursday, 19 November 2015 12:57:27 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:
Thanks for comment on septic tanks and following Klargester links,
distributed by Kingspan, Enviroment Agency at least in England is
banning their use after 2020 , will have to check on Scottish
regulations, cess pits are already banned.

The link says that if you have a septic tank *discharging to open
water* you will have to upgrade. I think an existing septic tank
discharging to a drainage field is OK (which means your neighbours
are OK.

Following
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-...-to-the-ground
it appears new septic tanks are OK.

(My old house must have had a Klargester because there wasn't space
for a drainage field.)


http://www.kingspanenviro.com/brands...es-regulations

Power, water and a drain field or water course shouldn`t be an issue on site currently looking at, there may be a possibility of getting together with the neighbours, who do have septic tanks if they are going to have to be replaced.

In meantime chemical seems to be the expedient choice.

Adam Aglionby Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:37:57 AM UTC, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 20:43:04 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
A micro sewage plant use aerobic processes to break down the muck and
requires power for the compressor to aerate the contents and to drive
the stirrer. The out flow is (should be) clean enough to be
discharged on the surface or to a water course.

My Klargester had no compressor. The aeration was caused by disks (about
1m diameter) which were half in the waste and half in the air. They
rotated round (slowly - once every ?30s?). The disks had a bio-film
growing on them, and the rotation kept them moist and aerated. One of the
disks had a scoop about the size of a mug which poured a mugful of waste
per revolution from the dirty side to the clean side which would entrain
a little more air.

Thanks for all the input, gave me a few avenues to explore further.

From what have learned so far , composting toilets are a licence to print money for people who used to just make garden sheds, now a 4X4 pent roof is 1795 + VAT if supplied with an earth floor and some buckets....

The Clivus system looks good but suspecting its going to be even more expensive than the 4X4 earth floor pent roof.

Thanks for comment on septic tanks and following Klargester links, distributed by Kingspan, Enviroment Agency at least in England is banning their use after 2020

Er where's it say that? Presume you mean installation rather than use?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 12:58:08 AM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 19 Nov 2015 12:29:58 GMT, Huge wrote:

- Septic tanks are *not* being banned.

I've yet to follow and read your link.

Even ones whose outflow is on the surface rather than underground? I
also dedected the scare story marketing hype but the satement:

"If you have a septic tank that discharges directly to a surface
water you will need to replace or upgrade your treatment system by 1
January 2020, or when you sell your property if before this date."

Is pretty definative. Of course it omits what is meant by "replace or
upgrade", the inference being you'll need to replace with a
Klargester but "upgrade" could just be bung the outflow underground
into a drainage field.

- There is *no* general requirement to upgrade to a package treatment
plant when selling a house after January 2015.

It doesn't say there is, except if you have septic tank with a
surface outflow. Your marketing bull**** filter has failed, you need
to replace it with a Klargester. B-)

Darn your right, all this looking into toilets something had to stick :-)

SEPA don`t seem to have any such doomsaying about septic tanks or packaged treatment plants

https://www.sepa.org.uk/regulations/...age-discharges

It does reinforce on me that lack of mains sanitation is never going to be a cheap problem to fix.


--
Cheers
Dave.

In years to come you may like to engage the services of one of Blaster Bates successors as described in his record Laughter with a Bang

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be ideal and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply but appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest discharge and eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?


From my experiences visiting the family in Jaffna, Sri Lanka, where there is no mains water or sewerage anywhere and ground conditions are sandy soil with water table around 12 feet below the surface, supplying drinking water from open wells on each plot.

Toilets are a detached breeze-block cubicle with a 'squat' lavatory set into a concrete floor, draining into a septic tank with a soakaway, flushing is done with a bucket.

This arrangement works very well, there have never been any reported issues of water pollution from it despite the proximity of the water supply. The cubicle does need to be well-ventilated as they tend to smell.

Thanks!

On 29/11/2015 16:35, Jaffna Dog wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises without a mains or any sewerage connection?

As far as can see starts at composting toilet, which may not be ideal and requires maintenance :-/

Portaloo /chemical loo , fairly high ongoing maintenance cost.

Septic tank, capital cost and needs discharge area and relevant permissions and of course and ongoing maintenance cost.

Micro sewage plant, highest capital cost and requires power supply but appears to be lowest ongoing cost maintenance and cleanest discharge and eaesiset permissions.

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?


From my experiences visiting the family in Jaffna, Sri Lanka, where there is no mains water or sewerage anywhere and ground conditions are sandy soil with water table around 12 feet below the surface, supplying drinking water from open wells on each plot.

Toilets are a detached breeze-block cubicle with a 'squat' lavatory set into a concrete floor, draining into a septic tank with a soakaway, flushing is done with a bucket.

This arrangement works very well, there have never been any reported issues of water pollution from it despite the proximity of the water supply. The cubicle does need to be well-ventilated as they tend to smell.

Thanks!

From my experience of visiting Jaffna, I got the worst gut bug I have
ever experienced. By a huge margin. For about twenty years after I still
got twinges that started at that time.

--
Rod

On Sunday, 29 November 2015 22:57:45 UTC, polygonum wrote:
On 29/11/2015 16:35, Jaffna Dog wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to premises without a mains or any sewerage connection?

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?


From my experiences visiting the family in Jaffna, Sri Lanka, where there is no mains water or sewerage anywhere and ground conditions are sandy soil with water table around 12 feet below the surface, supplying drinking water from open wells on each plot.

Toilets are a detached breeze-block cubicle with a 'squat' lavatory set into a concrete floor, draining into a septic tank with a soakaway, flushing is done with a bucket.

This arrangement works very well, there have never been any reported issues of water pollution from it despite the proximity of the water supply. The cubicle does need to be well-ventilated as they tend to smel

From my experience of visiting Jaffna, I got the worst gut bug I have
ever experienced. By a huge margin. For about twenty years after I still
got twinges that started at that time.

--
Rod

What were you doing in Jaffna? and what did you eat to get the gut bug, the food is safe as long as it's freshly cooked, but don't drink the fermented coconut known to the locals as 'toddy' and described to white people as 'beer', which it certainly isn't. Sri Lankan 'Lion' beer is very good though.

On 30/11/2015 18:35, pamela wrote:
On 17:35 30 Nov 2015, Jaffna Dog wrote:

On Sunday, 29 November 2015 22:57:45 UTC, polygonum wrote:
On 29/11/2015 16:35, Jaffna Dog wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:33:49 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
What are the options for providing permanent sanitation to
premises wi thout a mains or any sewerage connection?

Looking at provoding facilities for workshop premises with less
than 5 people about regularly as against a cafe serving coach
tours.

Any advice or experiences to share?


From my experiences visiting the family in Jaffna, Sri Lanka,
where th re is no mains water or sewerage anywhere and ground
conditions are sandy soil with water table around 12 feet below
the surface, supplying drinking water from open wells on each
plot.

Toilets are a detached breeze-block cubicle with a 'squat' lavatory
set into a concrete floor, draining into a septic tank with a
soakaway, flushing is done with a bucket.

This arrangement works very well, there have never been any
reported is sues of water pollution from it despite the proximity
of the water supply. The cubicle does need to be well-ventilated as
they tend to smel

From my experience of visiting Jaffna, I got the worst gut bug I
have ever experienced. By a huge margin. For about twenty years
after I still got twinges that started at that time.

-- Rod

What were you doing in Jaffna? and what did you eat to get the gut
bug, the food is safe as long as it's freshly cooked, but don't drink
the fermented coconut known to the locals as 'toddy' and described to
white people as 'beer', which it certainly isn't. Sri Lankan 'Lion'
beer is very good though.


I have to admit that I was once roughing it and after seeing the sights
at Polonnaruwa we pressed on by CTB (SLTB now) to Jaffna. Don't
remember any tummy bugs there but we did feel rather unwell after eating
in Colombo. I seem to recall taking antibiotics as a precaution.

It wasn't so much the sanitation (although it wasn't fantastic) but the
lack of precaution by the locals. It just takes one hygiene slip when
there are serious bugs roaming at large as poor Rod found out.

Just went there because it existed! I drank toddy several times during
my stay in Sri Lanka. No problem with that - so far as I am aware. And
drank several beers - from memory most came from Nuwara Eliya. I have
never been certain what caused the problem but at least one doctor was
convinced it was salmonella. And I suspect tea rather than food.

--
Rod

polygonum wrote:

Just went there because it existed! I drank toddy several times during
my stay in Sri Lanka. No problem with that - so far as I am aware. And
drank several beers - from memory most came from Nuwara Eliya. I have
never been certain what caused the problem but at least one doctor was
convinced it was salmonella. And I suspect tea rather than food.

Some years ago, shortly after spending a month on holiday in
France, including swimming in a murky canal adjoining one of the
campsites we used, my then wife & I went along to a talk on
wines, organised by her professional body, the Hotel, Catering
and Institutional Management Association.

The meal afterwards was a seafood paella, which we really
enjoyed.

A few days later it emerged that practically everyone else at the
meal was suffering from serious food poisoning, and having to
give samples for Public Health analysis. We seemed to have
acquired immunity on our trip.

If the papers had got wind of the events, they could really have
had fun - HCIMA can't feed themselves safely. Seafood is always
risky, and to serve it when it will have to be kept warm, as the
exact time it will be needed is not known, is asking for trouble.
There was even a rumour that it had actually been prepared during
the afternoon.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 30/11/2015 20:03, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Seafood is always
risky, and to serve it when it will have to be kept warm, as the
exact time it will be needed is not known, is asking for trouble.

So long as it was kept above 60C there would be no problem.

Andy