Had an emergency yesterday afternoon. I happened to be hanging the
washing outside when I noticed that the heating oil tank had split for
about an inch about half-way up the side. The oil wasn't gushing out,
but something Had To Be Done urgently. This was at 5:30 pm so the
heating oil supplier had gone home. The next door neighbour and I
managed to seal the leak temporarily with wet potter's clay and tape
so that it just dripped, but I thought I can't leave it like that
until the morning, so I called the fire station in Boston for advice
(non-999 number).

There is no fire station in the small town where I live in South
Lincs, so I called the Boston station and caught the resident fire
officer just as he was about to leave. He said straightway he'd send a
fire engine, as they had better sealing putty than the potter's clay.
They use it on lorry tanks. Anyway, they arrived 20 minutes later -
five blokes! Very helpful. Within just ten minutes the guy who seemed
to have done it before had sealed it with the stuff they use, which is
called Dammit (I've since looked it up on the internet). They covered
the Dammit with several layers of what looked like black duct tape.

In the interim I called my heating engineer, who is coming first thing
this morning with temporary bund tanks to pump out my tank into. I'll
have to get a new tank, but I don't know whether to get a single-skin
or a bund tank. The fire officer thought bund tanks were mandatory
now, but I still see firms on the internet selling single-skin ones,
which my current one is.

Thing is, I took delivery of heating oil yesterday mid-morning and it
filled the tank brimfull, so probably the extra pressure of 2000
litres pressing on the tank was enough for it to give way. The tank
was manufactured in 2004. I'm just hoping the repair will last until
tomorrow morning, but if it bursts open again, the fire officer said
just ring 999 as my details will now be on the system already.

Update: I didn't sleep much, so went out to check the repair during
the night. It lasted about 6 hours completely dry, but at about 01:30
am this morning I noticed it was weeping slightly. At 04:30 am it was
weeping more, and now, at 08:00 am it is dripping ~slightly~ (about a
drip every 3 seconds). I gathered the leakage in a plastic bowl, which
has accumulated about 2 litres overnight, though some of that may well
be rainwater as it6's been raining off and on throughout the night.

The other thing was, a neighbour across the road two or three doors
down had exactly the same thing happen to him, according to my
immediate neighbour. He had his tank filled right up and it developed
a leak soon afterwards! These tanks are now over 11 years old on the
estate. They are, I see from the internet, guaranteed for ten years,
but I had assumed they last forever.

Questions:

1. What other course of action might I have taken?

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay? Note that bund
tanks don't come in as many sizes (capacities) and are at least twice
the price of single-skin. Howeverm I'm not worried about the cost at
the moment. I just want to get it sorted.

3. Should I NEVER AGAIN fill the new tank up to the top?

4. Any further suggestions as to replacing the tank with the new one?
My friendly heating engineer will do all the work, but I'm asking what
points to remember? How heavy are these plastic tanks when empty?

The tank is round cross-section, about 1m diameter and 2m long.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:09:35 +0100, MM wrote:

In the interim I called my heating engineer, who is coming first thing
this morning with temporary bund tanks to pump out my tank into. I'll
have to get a new tank, but I don't know whether to get a single-skin or
a bund tank. The fire officer thought bund tanks were mandatory now, but
I still see firms on the internet selling single-skin ones, which my
current one is.

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay? Note that bund tanks
don't come in as many sizes (capacities) and are at least twice the
price of single-skin. Howeverm I'm not worried about the cost at the
moment. I just want to get it sorted.

IIRC, single-skin is permissible up to a certain size and at least a
minimum distance from waterways.

If t'were me, it'd be bunded, no question. 2,000 litres of heating oil is
not really what you want spilling all over the garden.

Our neighbours have a scabby old steel tank - and, frankly, it stinks of
oil. I try very hard to ignore it, but if t'were mine, it would've been
replaced by now... I like our gas tank.

I dunno about where you are, but our local builder's merchant have
several oil tanks in their yard, and a catalogue on the counter. You,
surely, know the bloke behind the counter at yours? Ask him what they
tend to sell. Ask your heating engineer what he tends to install, and
what he'd do if it were his.

3. Should I NEVER AGAIN fill the new tank up to the top?

If it hadn't been filled to the brim, might it have split when filled
half way? If not this time, next time?

"MM" wrote in message ...

Had an emergency yesterday afternoon. I happened to be hanging the
washing outside when I noticed that the heating oil tank had split for
about an inch about half-way up the side. The oil wasn't gushing out,
but something Had To Be Done urgently. This was at 5:30 pm so the
heating oil supplier had gone home. The next door neighbour and I
managed to seal the leak temporarily with wet potter's clay and tape
so that it just dripped, but I thought I can't leave it like that
until the morning, so I called the fire station in Boston for advice
(non-999 number).

There is no fire station in the small town where I live in South
Lincs, so I called the Boston station and caught the resident fire
officer just as he was about to leave. He said straightway he'd send a
fire engine, as they had better sealing putty than the potter's clay.
They use it on lorry tanks. Anyway, they arrived 20 minutes later -
five blokes! Very helpful. Within just ten minutes the guy who seemed
to have done it before had sealed it with the stuff they use, which is
called Dammit (I've since looked it up on the internet). They covered
the Dammit with several layers of what looked like black duct tape.

In the interim I called my heating engineer, who is coming first thing
this morning with temporary bund tanks to pump out my tank into. I'll
have to get a new tank, but I don't know whether to get a single-skin
or a bund tank. The fire officer thought bund tanks were mandatory
now, but I still see firms on the internet selling single-skin ones,
which my current one is.

Thing is, I took delivery of heating oil yesterday mid-morning and it
filled the tank brimfull, so probably the extra pressure of 2000
litres pressing on the tank was enough for it to give way. The tank
was manufactured in 2004. I'm just hoping the repair will last until
tomorrow morning, but if it bursts open again, the fire officer said
just ring 999 as my details will now be on the system already.

Update: I didn't sleep much, so went out to check the repair during
the night. It lasted about 6 hours completely dry, but at about 01:30
am this morning I noticed it was weeping slightly. At 04:30 am it was
weeping more, and now, at 08:00 am it is dripping ~slightly~ (about a
drip every 3 seconds). I gathered the leakage in a plastic bowl, which
has accumulated about 2 litres overnight, though some of that may well
be rainwater as it6's been raining off and on throughout the night.

The other thing was, a neighbour across the road two or three doors
down had exactly the same thing happen to him, according to my
immediate neighbour. He had his tank filled right up and it developed
a leak soon afterwards! These tanks are now over 11 years old on the
estate. They are, I see from the internet, guaranteed for ten years,
but I had assumed they last forever.

Questions:

1. What other course of action might I have taken?

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay? Note that bund
tanks don't come in as many sizes (capacities) and are at least twice
the price of single-skin. Howeverm I'm not worried about the cost at
the moment. I just want to get it sorted.

3. Should I NEVER AGAIN fill the new tank up to the top?

4. Any further suggestions as to replacing the tank with the new one?
My friendly heating engineer will do all the work, but I'm asking what
points to remember? How heavy are these plastic tanks when empty?

The tank is round cross-section, about 1m diameter and 2m long.

MM

ONLY replace it with a bunded tank - the Environment Agency will be after
you if you have a spillage.

I keep a 1000 litre 'IBC' palletised tank for shifting oil from one tank to
another (we have three separate oil central heating systems on the farm)
using an electric imersible pump, so in you instance I'd have been able to
reduce the leaking tank, and given room, transfer the oil into another one.


Andrew

It does seem a bit short lived. Kind of makes me wonder if perhaps the
mounting has put it under some kinds of stress, so when its full its being
twisted or something.
Maybe the whole batch was made with a slight flaw. I'm sure a guy down my
road has had a plastic tank for 20 years or so.
another case of they don't make em like they used to?
The fact that it split tends to suggest some uneven loads to me.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"MM" wrote in message
...
Had an emergency yesterday afternoon. I happened to be hanging the
washing outside when I noticed that the heating oil tank had split for
about an inch about half-way up the side. The oil wasn't gushing out,
but something Had To Be Done urgently. This was at 5:30 pm so the
heating oil supplier had gone home. The next door neighbour and I
managed to seal the leak temporarily with wet potter's clay and tape
so that it just dripped, but I thought I can't leave it like that
until the morning, so I called the fire station in Boston for advice
(non-999 number).

There is no fire station in the small town where I live in South
Lincs, so I called the Boston station and caught the resident fire
officer just as he was about to leave. He said straightway he'd send a
fire engine, as they had better sealing putty than the potter's clay.
They use it on lorry tanks. Anyway, they arrived 20 minutes later -
five blokes! Very helpful. Within just ten minutes the guy who seemed
to have done it before had sealed it with the stuff they use, which is
called Dammit (I've since looked it up on the internet). They covered
the Dammit with several layers of what looked like black duct tape.

In the interim I called my heating engineer, who is coming first thing
this morning with temporary bund tanks to pump out my tank into. I'll
have to get a new tank, but I don't know whether to get a single-skin
or a bund tank. The fire officer thought bund tanks were mandatory
now, but I still see firms on the internet selling single-skin ones,
which my current one is.

Thing is, I took delivery of heating oil yesterday mid-morning and it
filled the tank brimfull, so probably the extra pressure of 2000
litres pressing on the tank was enough for it to give way. The tank
was manufactured in 2004. I'm just hoping the repair will last until
tomorrow morning, but if it bursts open again, the fire officer said
just ring 999 as my details will now be on the system already.

Update: I didn't sleep much, so went out to check the repair during
the night. It lasted about 6 hours completely dry, but at about 01:30
am this morning I noticed it was weeping slightly. At 04:30 am it was
weeping more, and now, at 08:00 am it is dripping ~slightly~ (about a
drip every 3 seconds). I gathered the leakage in a plastic bowl, which
has accumulated about 2 litres overnight, though some of that may well
be rainwater as it6's been raining off and on throughout the night.

The other thing was, a neighbour across the road two or three doors
down had exactly the same thing happen to him, according to my
immediate neighbour. He had his tank filled right up and it developed
a leak soon afterwards! These tanks are now over 11 years old on the
estate. They are, I see from the internet, guaranteed for ten years,
but I had assumed they last forever.

Questions:

1. What other course of action might I have taken?

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay? Note that bund
tanks don't come in as many sizes (capacities) and are at least twice
the price of single-skin. Howeverm I'm not worried about the cost at
the moment. I just want to get it sorted.

3. Should I NEVER AGAIN fill the new tank up to the top?

4. Any further suggestions as to replacing the tank with the new one?
My friendly heating engineer will do all the work, but I'm asking what
points to remember? How heavy are these plastic tanks when empty?

The tank is round cross-section, about 1m diameter and 2m long.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:09:35 +0100, MM wrote:

The other thing was, a neighbour across the road two or three doors
down had exactly the same thing happen to him, according to my
immediate neighbour. He had his tank filled right up and it developed
a leak soon afterwards! These tanks are now over 11 years old on the
estate. They are, I see from the internet, guaranteed for ten years,
but I had assumed they last forever.

Hum, sounds like a bad batch or consitently bad installation. Are
these tanks fully and solidy supported underneath? Did your
neighbours claim on the guarantees? If so the manufacturer should
have a record of those claims and might accept the "bad batch" theory
and honour the notionally expired guarantee. Get brief details of the
failures (address, date, tank model, actual failure) from as many
people on the estate as you can and write (paper) to the
manufactuerer pointing out the high failure rate and asking nicely
for them to honour the guarantee on your tank.

If you don't ask you don't get.

1. What other course of action might I have taken?

What you did seems fine to me, can't think of anything I would have
done differently.

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay?

Check the regs, you might not have the option. These days if I was
replacing our tank I'd go for a bunded one. If the EA get to hear
about a leak of kerosene they are going to want it cleaned up, so all
"contaminated" soil removed and disposed of (hazardos waste, not
cheap).

A bunded tank also means that you still have the oil should the inner
one leak.

3. Should I NEVER AGAIN fill the new tank up to the top?

Seems a bit of a design flaw to make a 2000 l tank that can only hold
1000 l safely. Not to mention false advertisng.

How heavy are these plastic tanks when empty?

Doesn't it say in the spec on the website?

You've got me worried now, took a delivery of 2250 l the other week.
I check the sight glass every week to track consumption, the level
can be a bit wild the week after a delivery, expansion, entrained
air, etc so when it went up that week I wasn't bothered. Trouble is
it went up the second week as well, thinking that rain might have
been getting in clambered up to inspect top of tank and spoted a
small crack/tear at a high stress inside corner, don't think it's
full thickness and it's above the oil line. Tank is getting on for 20
years old and sits in full sun.
--
Cheers
Dave.

On 24 Sep 2015 08:04:10 GMT, Huge wrote:

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay? Note that bund
tanks don't come in as many sizes (capacities) and are at least
twice
the price of single-skin.

If you're near any kind of watercourse you MUST have a bunded tank.

Not just near a water course, "above ground level" triggers the must
as well.

From: Environment Agency and Department for Environment, Food & Rural
Affairs
First published: 6 May 2015
Part of: Oil storage and Environmental management
Applies to: England and Wales

How to install a new or replacement heating oil container at your home.

This page applies to you if you're installing a new or replacement
heating oil container with a capacity of more than 2,500 litres or in
any of the following locations:

* above ground level"
snip
Bund

Your container must be bunded (have an outer case that surrounds the
container to catch leaks or spills).

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domestic...ow-to-store-it

4. Any further suggestions as to replacing the tank with the new
one?

Get a steel one.

That'll quietly rust from the inside at the bottom.

--
Cheers
Dave.

En el artículo o.uk,
Dave Liquorice escribió:

spoted a
small crack/tear at a high stress inside corner, don't think it's
full thickness and it's above the oil line. Tank is getting on for 20
years old and sits in full sun.

Might be time to run it empty and replace it. Of course, this has
happened just as the weather is beginning to get colder...

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On 24/09/2015 10:15, Huge wrote:
4. Any further suggestions as to replacing the tank with the new
one?

Get a steel one.

That'll quietly rust from the inside at the bottom.

I'd still rather have a steel one.


My neighbour had a steel one that eventually leaked. He replaced it with
an expensive bunded one.

He and later is wife died. Someone bought the house, demolished it and
built a new one. I coveted the tank, however that was the only thing
that the developed kept.

I think with plastic tanks you have to make sure that they are on a firm
flat level base. If buying a new one which can be unbunded up to 2500
litres (IIRC and away from water courses) I would suggest getting one
from a well known brand.

I bought a new steel tank 30 years ago when I moved to my present house.
I painted it with Micaceous Oxide paint.

--
Michael Chare

"MM" wrote in message
...
Had an emergency yesterday afternoon. I happened to be hanging the
washing outside when I noticed that the heating oil tank had split for
about an inch about half-way up the side. The oil wasn't gushing out,
but something Had To Be Done urgently. This was at 5:30 pm so the
heating oil supplier had gone home. The next door neighbour and I
managed to seal the leak temporarily with wet potter's clay and tape
so that it just dripped, but I thought I can't leave it like that
until the morning, so I called the fire station in Boston for advice
(non-999 number).

Good luck with getting it replaced before the tank splits any more.

We had a minor oil leak in join in the pipe (nowhere near the tank) and when
the insurance loss adjuster came to authorise payment for the fairly small
cleanup and repair costs, he examined the rest of the system and found that
our existing single-skin tank was rusting through and needed to be replaced
urgently. We went for a slightly larger-capacity one to increase the chance
that we'd be able to order oil in 1000-litre multiples as this is a
price-break point (ie we wouldn't have to let the oil level get so low
before ordering more). And we went for bunded as being safer: two skins
rather than one have to fail before you get a leakage.

As it happens, when we later had to get our boiler replaced (it never rains
but pours) the engineer who did that said that the new tank should not have
been placed where it was (close to buildings and a wooden shed) and should
have been on proper mortared base rather than stacks of breezeblocks, and
ideally should have its exit a bit higher - as far as he could tell there
was very little fall from the tank outlet to the boiler level. But he said
he was under no obligation to report that to anyone so he suggested that we
all pretend he'd never noticed it. Any comeback would be on the fitting
company not on us who can't be expected to know the rules.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:15:58 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:09:35 +0100, MM wrote:

In the interim I called my heating engineer, who is coming first thing
this morning with temporary bund tanks to pump out my tank into. I'll
have to get a new tank, but I don't know whether to get a single-skin or
a bund tank. The fire officer thought bund tanks were mandatory now, but
I still see firms on the internet selling single-skin ones, which my
current one is.

2. Should I get a bund tank or is single-skin okay? Note that bund tanks
don't come in as many sizes (capacities) and are at least twice the
price of single-skin. Howeverm I'm not worried about the cost at the
moment. I just want to get it sorted.

IIRC, single-skin is permissible up to a certain size and at least a
minimum distance from waterways.

If t'were me, it'd be bunded, no question. 2,000 litres of heating oil is
not really what you want spilling all over the garden.

Our neighbours have a scabby old steel tank - and, frankly, it stinks of
oil. I try very hard to ignore it, but if t'were mine, it would've been
replaced by now... I like our gas tank.

I dunno about where you are, but our local builder's merchant have
several oil tanks in their yard, and a catalogue on the counter. You,
surely, know the bloke behind the counter at yours? Ask him what they
tend to sell. Ask your heating engineer what he tends to install, and
what he'd do if it were his.

3. Should I NEVER AGAIN fill the new tank up to the top?

If it hadn't been filled to the brim, might it have split when filled
half way? If not this time, next time?

When the heating engineer this morning had finished setting up the
pump and started pumping out my tank into a temporary one, he went
across the road to check two of the neighbours' tanks. Verdict: Both
are ready to burst any time! One neighbour was expecting 1000 litres
tomorrow, but quickly phoned and cancelled her order.

My heating engineer said the tank had not been installed in accordance
with the regs in force 10 years ago when the 40 properties on the
estate were constructed, as it is too close to combustible material
(wooden fence) and too close to water courses. Engineer said he will
ONLY consider a bunded tank for my replacement, which I fully agree
with. I wouldn't wish this hassle on anyone, even if I sell and move
on in a couple of years.

A friggin' nightmare, I can tell you. But now all is in hand with the
temporary tank containing 1000 litres and I can relax. The leak
stopped dripping as soon as we'd pumped out abound 300 litres, so it
was deffo that brimful delivery I got yesterday morning that triggered
the leak. Thank goodness the fire brigade was so ready to help. He
said I was quite right to contact them, as it was a genuine emergency.
Some people call 999 to report a kettle that won't come to the boil,
he said.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:44:52 +0100, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:

ONLY replace it with a bunded tank - the Environment Agency will be after
you if you have a spillage.

Absolutely. The heating engineer who arrive promptly pretty much first
thing said he would only consider a bunded tank. Also see my comments
earlier re non-compliance with "building" regs (dunno if it was
building regs, or some other kind of regs, but the installation was
deffo not legal when the poroperties were constructed in 2003/4).

I keep a 1000 litre 'IBC' palletised tank for shifting oil from one tank to
another (we have three separate oil central heating systems on the farm)
using an electric imersible pump, so in you instance I'd have been able to
reduce the leaking tank, and given room, transfer the oil into another one.

Won't apply now in my case, but as a matter of interest, what does a
palletised tank cost? This is exactly what the engineer brought with
him this morning.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:11:50 +0100, "Brian-Gaff"
wrote:

It does seem a bit short lived. Kind of makes me wonder if perhaps the
mounting has put it under some kinds of stress, so when its full its being
twisted or something.
Maybe the whole batch was made with a slight flaw. I'm sure a guy down my
road has had a plastic tank for 20 years or so.
another case of they don't make em like they used to?
The fact that it split tends to suggest some uneven loads to me.
Brian

Suggests the same to me, too. As I was looking side on at the tank
after the panic was over this morning and we'd transferred 1000 litres
to the temporary tank, I could see a definite dip in the middle of the
tank. Simon could see it, too, when I pointed it out.

But that 500 litre delivery I had yesterday was definitely the last
straw for this old tank. The fire officer said it certainly looked
like it had experienced a good few winters and summers.

MM

/Not just near a water course, "above ground level" triggers the must
as well.

From: Environment Agency and Department for Environment, Food & Rural
Affairs
First published: 6 May 2015
Part of: Oil storage and Environmental management
Applies to: England and Wales

How to install a new or replacement heating oil container at your home.

This page applies to you if you're installing a new or replacement
heating oil container with a capacity of more than 2,500 litres or in
any of the following locations:

* above ground level"
snip /Q

That appears to be at odds with both Oftec and the Building Regs....

Jim K

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:11:50 +0100, "Brian-Gaff"
wrote:

It does seem a bit short lived. Kind of makes me wonder if perhaps the
mounting has put it under some kinds of stress, so when its full its being
twisted or something.
Maybe the whole batch was made with a slight flaw. I'm sure a guy down my
road has had a plastic tank for 20 years or so.
another case of they don't make em like they used to?
The fact that it split tends to suggest some uneven loads to me.
Brian

The current tank was installed in 2004 when the 40 properties were
constructed. It is a "Harlequin 2100HZ Horizontal L 2120 mm W 1240 mm
H 1260 mm", according to the label on the front face. (Round
cross-section)

MM

MM wrote:

as a matter of interest, what does a palletised tank cost?

Try tanksandtubs.co.uk, not too far from you ...

Pic #4 on this page http://ryeoil.co.uk/leaking-oil-tank shows an
almost identical crack to mine and in a very similar place. Mine
wasn't as big though.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:14:22 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:37:50 +0100, MM wrote:

Won't apply now in my case, but as a matter of interest, what does a
palletised tank cost?

Bugger all. They're on eBay from less than £20, if you can collect. £70
delivered seems to be the cheapest at a quick glance.

Jeez! That's cheap. I imagined they'd cost a couple of hundred quid or
thereabouts.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:22:21 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

MM wrote:

as a matter of interest, what does a palletised tank cost?

Try tanksandtubs.co.uk, not too far from you ...

Yeah, I'll take a look. I'm truly knackered now, having been up half
the night, calling the fire brigade, waiting for the heating engineer,
getting the pumping out started. It all takes its toll on the old
stress levels, and I'm not so young any more. Getting to the point
when I'd quite seriously consider a care home with everything done for
me. But I could never afford one.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:14:05 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 24/09/2015 17:45, MM wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:06:43 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

I think with plastic tanks you have to make sure that they are on a firm
flat level base.

My heating engineer said the current concrete platform will have to be
extended as it sites the tank too close to combustible material. But
he's going to do the whole job for me. I've had him many times to
service the boiler so I don't expect to get ripped off. Plus, he
services most of the other neighbours' tanks on the estate, so he does
have a reputation to maintain (unlike VW it seems!)

MM


Apparently you could have used soap!

Yeah, I saw that too, after the event! Must be some kind of chemical
reaction. The fire brigade people used Dammit, which they said they
use a lot when lorry fuel tanks develop a leak. It certainly held up
in my case for over 12 hours and probably could have gone another six,
although it was dripping slightly by the time the heating engineer
arrived.

http://ryeoil.co.uk/leaking-oil-tank


I am rather hoping I might be able to get a good discount on a new 2.0
litre TDI VW.

Is it even wise to consider a VW now? Or Seat or Skoda? I have the
feeling that this scandal is going to haunt them for YEARS. The Diesel
versions are probably worthless now, if they don't comply with the
regs. Just like failing the Diesel MoT, but permanent.

I have ~never~ wanted a Diesel car. It's been petrol for me since
1965-ish.

MM

In article ,
MM wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:14:05 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 24/09/2015 17:45, MM wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:06:43 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

I think with plastic tanks you have to make sure that they are on a firm
flat level base.

My heating engineer said the current concrete platform will have to be
extended as it sites the tank too close to combustible material. But
he's going to do the whole job for me. I've had him many times to
service the boiler so I don't expect to get ripped off. Plus, he
services most of the other neighbours' tanks on the estate, so he does
have a reputation to maintain (unlike VW it seems!)

MM


Apparently you could have used soap!

Yeah, I saw that too, after the event! Must be some kind of chemical
reaction. The fire brigade people used Dammit, which they said they
use a lot when lorry fuel tanks develop a leak. It certainly held up
in my case for over 12 hours and probably could have gone another six,
although it was dripping slightly by the time the heating engineer
arrived.

http://ryeoil.co.uk/leaking-oil-tank


I am rather hoping I might be able to get a good discount on a new 2.0
litre TDI VW.

Is it even wise to consider a VW now? Or Seat or Skoda?


or Audi!

The diesel engine in my Seat (owned from 1996 for 6 years) was developed by
Audi

--
Please note new email address:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:56:07 +0100, MM wrote:

Is it even wise to consider a VW now? Or Seat or Skoda? I have the
feeling that this scandal is going to haunt them for YEARS.

**** that. I'm seriously thinking of buying VW shares.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:58:30 +0100, charles wrote:

The diesel engine in my Seat (owned from 1996 for 6 years) was developed
by Audi

Umm, it was developed by VAG.

VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda - all just brands of VAG - as are Bugatti, Bentley,
Lamborghini, Ducati, MAN...

The platforms are the same, the mechanicals are the same, the electronics
are the same, the factories are the same.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:56:07 +0100, MM wrote:

Is it even wise to consider a VW now? Or Seat or Skoda? I have the
feeling that this scandal is going to haunt them for YEARS. The Diesel
versions are probably worthless now, if they don't comply with the
regs. Just like failing the Diesel MoT, but permanent.

Why permenant? The ECU's can either be reflashed with new firmware as
part of the next service or the ECU's swapped out, factory
reprogrammed and sent back out.

This does assume that either the car can be made to meet a given
emmisions spec or they simply alter the spec of the cars to tell the
truth. Maybe offering a "buy back" deal for owners who no longer want
the "re-speced" car.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 9/24/2015 1:14 PM, Michael Chare wrote:

Apparently you could have used soap!

http://ryeoil.co.uk/leaking-oil-tank

That was suggested by the people who put in our new boiler - as a
stopgap, of course.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:20:47 -0700 (PDT), JimK wrote:

From: Environment Agency and Department for Environment, Food &
Rural
Affairs
First published: 6 May 2015
Part of: Oil storage and Environmental management
Applies to: England and Wales

How to install a new or replacement heating oil container at your
home.

This page applies to you if you're installing a new or replacement

heating oil container with a capacity of more than 2,500 litres or
in
any of the following locations:

* above ground level"
snip /Q

That appears to be at odds with both Oftec and the Building Regs....

ICBA'd to dig through the half dozen or so bits of
legislation/regulations that might apply. I saw over 200 l, over 350
l, under 2,500 l, under 3,500 l all in various contexts that might
(or might not) apply.

The online Building Regs ought to be right but note the date in the
quote.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:54:12 +0100, MM wrote:

Hum, sounds like a bad batch or consitently bad installation. Are
these tanks fully and solidy supported underneath? Did your
neighbours claim on the guarantees? If so the manufacturer should
have a record of those claims and might accept the "bad batch"
theory
and honour the notionally expired guarantee. Get brief details of
the
failures (address, date, tank model, actual failure) from as many
people on the estate as you can and write (paper) to the
manufactuerer pointing out the high failure rate and asking nicely
for them to honour the guarantee on your tank.

They're only guaranteed for ten years and they're at least a year
older.

So? One could reasonably expect something with a ten year gurantee to
last 20 years. As you apparently have evidence that a number of these
tanks all installed at the same time have all suffered similar
failures that indicates a problem with the tanks.

As I said "if you don't ask, you don't get".

People without savings, which category many Brits fall into, are
really stuffed if this happens to them.

Or they get a new credit card with 20+ months interest free credit
and pay it off slowly. Or Stooze the card, ie use it for all
purchases, only pay off the minimum each month and bung the cash that
would have gone to the card into a high interest account (or better
mortgage offset account) to earn interest for nearly two years. Needs
a bit of discpline to absolutely put the money aside and not touch it
and big notes in your diary to fully pay off the card just before the
interest free period ends.

How much is a new 2500 l bunded tank? I am sitting down. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:58:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article ,
MM wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:14:05 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 24/09/2015 17:45, MM wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:06:43 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

I think with plastic tanks you have to make sure that they are on a firm
flat level base.

My heating engineer said the current concrete platform will have to be
extended as it sites the tank too close to combustible material. But
he's going to do the whole job for me. I've had him many times to
service the boiler so I don't expect to get ripped off. Plus, he
services most of the other neighbours' tanks on the estate, so he does
have a reputation to maintain (unlike VW it seems!)

MM


Apparently you could have used soap!

Yeah, I saw that too, after the event! Must be some kind of chemical
reaction. The fire brigade people used Dammit, which they said they
use a lot when lorry fuel tanks develop a leak. It certainly held up
in my case for over 12 hours and probably could have gone another six,
although it was dripping slightly by the time the heating engineer
arrived.

http://ryeoil.co.uk/leaking-oil-tank


I am rather hoping I might be able to get a good discount on a new 2.0
litre TDI VW.

Is it even wise to consider a VW now? Or Seat or Skoda?


or Audi!

The diesel engine in my Seat (owned from 1996 for 6 years) was developed by
Audi

Well, I would think this scam is a fairly recent thing, perhaps to
coinicide with the most recent and stringent US regs.

Before I bought my first Suzuki Alto in 2011 I test drove a VW Polo
(might have been a fox). Okay-ish, but when I discovered that the road
fund licence was £125 a year, every year, I backed away immediately.
The Alto was free for the first year and £20 after that. The *new*
Alto I bought in March 2015 is permanently free. (Hope they haven't
fiddled the figures either!)

Back to VW for a moment, and I simply cannot understand what possessed
management to condone the software tweaks. I can only explain it by
suggesting that it was a moment of blind panic by the VW top
management, something like this possible, but unlikely scenario:

CEO: "We gotta comply with the newest US regs! We simply gotta."

Chief designer: "Can't be done, old fruit. The engines, injection
systems, electronics, practically everything under the hood would need
from-the-ground-up redesign to meet those US values."

CEO: "How long?"

CD: "Five years, minimal, for all models."

CEO: "So what you're saying is, for five years we won't be able to
sell any vehicles in the US as none of the current range meets the
regs?"

CD: "Pretty much, yeah."

CEO: "Well, what if we tweaked the emissions values electronically on
a very short-term TEMPORARY basis while we rapidly redesign all the
gear asap?"

CD: "Probably could work, but what if we got found out?"

CEO: "I resign and you'll carry the can!"

CD: "'Twas ever thus!"

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:30:32 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:58:30 +0100, charles wrote:

The diesel engine in my Seat (owned from 1996 for 6 years) was developed
by Audi

Umm, it was developed by VAG.

And now they all look like they hail from S****horpe!

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 20:38:04 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:56:07 +0100, MM wrote:

Is it even wise to consider a VW now? Or Seat or Skoda? I have the
feeling that this scandal is going to haunt them for YEARS. The Diesel
versions are probably worthless now, if they don't comply with the
regs. Just like failing the Diesel MoT, but permanent.

Why permenant? The ECU's can either be reflashed with new firmware as
part of the next service or the ECU's swapped out, factory
reprogrammed and sent back out.

Because the vehicles cannot achieve the required values without "help"
from the software. The designs are old and tired. They should have
been keeping abreast of what regs were due. With their current designs
they could never meet those regs.

This does assume that either the car can be made to meet a given
emmisions spec or they simply alter the spec of the cars to tell the
truth. Maybe offering a "buy back" deal for owners who no longer want
the "re-speced" car.

But the truth, i.e. failure to comply with the regs without cheating,
will kill the VW market in the US (and possibly in Europe, too) stone
dead. Used cars will become worthless if they were subjected to the
tweaks, as they won't be able to meet MoT requirements, or equivalent
in other countries. Basically, VW is well and truly f***ed, and how
they ever thought it would never come out baffles me. I am gobsmacked.
Every time I switch on the news, there's further revelations.

MM

MM wrote:

Because the vehicles cannot achieve the required values without "help"
from the software.

Mine didn't have any problems getting through two MOTs, I doubt the
warmup they use in the test centre is sufficiently to trigger any
"cheat" mode.

Yes it's a problem for VW, I don't see it as a problem for owners.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:39:20 -0400, S Viemeister
wrote:

On 9/24/2015 1:14 PM, Michael Chare wrote:

Apparently you could have used soap!

http://ryeoil.co.uk/leaking-oil-tank

That was suggested by the people who put in our new boiler - as a
stopgap, of course.

When I first noticed the leak I have to say, I panicked. Just did not
know what to do. I rushed indoors and grabbed the first thing I
thought might work, which happened to be that blue gasket gunk in the
yellow tube. Utterly useless. Never in a million years would I have
guessed soap!

Stages were, in brief:

1. Used potter's clay and duct tape. Held till fire brigade arrived 1
hour later.

2. Fire officers used Dammit and the roll of duct tape and made a much
better seal. Lasted till the next day, though by the time the heating
engineer arrived it had started to drip once every 3 seconds.

I had placed a square plastic bowl underneath the drip, and the total
amount in there when finally we had pumped out enough oil to relieve
the wall pressure and the drip ceased was about 2 litres.

However, that fuel was contaminated with rain water as it had started
to rain during the night. Has anyone got any suggestions for proper
disposal of this "mix" of water and kerosene?

MM

MM posted
However, that fuel was contaminated with rain water as it had started
to rain during the night. Has anyone got any suggestions for proper
disposal of this "mix" of water and kerosene?

You just let it settle until the oil is floating on the water. Then pour
off the oil into a separate can (filter it through gauze if you like)
leaving the water behind, and it's ready for transferring back into the
tank.

--
Les

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:03:47 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:54:12 +0100, MM wrote:

Hum, sounds like a bad batch or consitently bad installation. Are
these tanks fully and solidy supported underneath? Did your
neighbours claim on the guarantees? If so the manufacturer should
have a record of those claims and might accept the "bad batch"
theory
and honour the notionally expired guarantee. Get brief details of
the
failures (address, date, tank model, actual failure) from as many
people on the estate as you can and write (paper) to the
manufactuerer pointing out the high failure rate and asking nicely
for them to honour the guarantee on your tank.

They're only guaranteed for ten years and they're at least a year
older.

So? One could reasonably expect something with a ten year gurantee to
last 20 years. As you apparently have evidence that a number of these
tanks all installed at the same time have all suffered similar
failures that indicates a problem with the tanks.

As I said "if you don't ask, you don't get".

True, but I don't think we'd have a leg to stand on, because the
guarantee has expired. I don't know why you think it's reasonable for
the tank to last for 20 years if the manufacturers only offer 10.

Anyway, Simon the heating engineer has dealt with dozens of plastic
(and metal) tanks that have leaked, all makes, all sizes, on farms, at
domestic dwellings.

Also, litigation of any nature doesn't come cheap. I recently changed
my will (donated it all to VW - only kidding!) and for a simple change
of one name, four addresses and the addition of one person the fee
came to £48, and that at a small market town solicitor in Lincs. God
knows what it would have cost in London.

People without savings, which category many Brits fall into, are
really stuffed if this happens to them.

Or they get a new credit card with 20+ months interest free credit
and pay it off slowly. Or Stooze the card, ie use it for all
purchases, only pay off the minimum each month and bung the cash that
would have gone to the card into a high interest account (or better
mortgage offset account) to earn interest for nearly two years. Needs
a bit of discpline to absolutely put the money aside and not touch it
and big notes in your diary to fully pay off the card just before the
interest free period ends.

I've been doing that every month for the past 30 years. I missed just
ONE month because I was abroad (long before the internet was ever
dreamed of).

How much is a new 2500 l bunded tank? I am sitting down. B-)

I'm getting a 1300 litre slimline and it'll be anything up to £2K,
plus the labour, concrete slab, temporary tank, etc etc. Put it this
way, I won't be buying fresh, wild salmon or raw prawns for a while.
And the oysters will have to get back in their shells, too. (Actually,
I hate the look of oysters when opened. Look like vaginas. Probably
smell like 'em as well.)

So what? When you've saved up for just this kind of emergency?

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:43:20 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Because the vehicles cannot achieve the required values without "help"
from the software.

Mine didn't have any problems getting through two MOTs, I doubt the
warmup they use in the test centre is sufficiently to trigger any
"cheat" mode.

Rather more relevantly, the MOT emissions test doesn't check for NOx, and
doesn't require anything even in the same order of magnitude as the
emissions standards.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:48:04 +0100, MM wrote:

However, that fuel was contaminated with rain water as it had started to
rain during the night. Has anyone got any suggestions for proper
disposal of this "mix" of water and kerosene?

Allow it to settle and separate?

Kerosene's boiling point is 150-300degC, so heat it gently, and any
remaining water will evaporate. Then pour it back in the tank. A fraction
of two litres into a thousand litres... Your boiler won't even notice it.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:58:34 +0100, MM wrote:

(Actually, I hate the look of oysters when opened. Look like vaginas.
Probably smell like 'em as well.)

You hate vaginas, too?

I didn't have you down as gay, have to admit.

/ICBA'd to dig through the half dozen or so bits of
legislation/regulations that might app/Q

Snip

Right. Not really an insightful analysis of the position then? just a juicy soundbite that looked too good not to trumpet...

Jim K

/Kerosene's boiling point is 150-300degC, so heat it gently, and any
remaining water will evaporate./Q

Along with the kerosene....

Jim K

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:43:20 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

MM wrote:

Because the vehicles cannot achieve the required values without "help"
from the software.

Mine didn't have any problems getting through two MOTs, I doubt the
warmup they use in the test centre is sufficiently to trigger any
"cheat" mode.

Yes it's a problem for VW, I don't see it as a problem for owners.

*The resale value will drop* ! Prospective car buyers will milk the
scandal for all it's worth.

MM

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:06:25 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:58:34 +0100, MM wrote:

(Actually, I hate the look of oysters when opened. Look like vaginas.
Probably smell like 'em as well.)

You hate vaginas, too?

I didn't have you down as gay, have to admit.

No, I'm as hetero as you can get. However, I'm completely tolerant of
other people's sexual preferences.

MM