A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair
mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed
re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!
--
Tim Lamb

On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

Do you have any drop in river level across your land? If so, you might
consider an hydraulic ram. They are ideal for giving a high head low
flow output from a low head high flow source, without any external power
required.


--
Colin Bignell

In message , "Nightjar
cpb" "insert my surname writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

Do you have any drop in river level across your land? If so, you might
consider an hydraulic ram. They are ideal for giving a high head low
flow output from a low head high flow source, without any external
power required.

Fine for a clean stream over a hard bed but this is the Lea with a high
silt burden, tidal flow from upstream sewage plant and numerous surface
water drain discharges.

Fall over a gravelly stretch might give a local 3mph flow.

There are designs about for d-i-y versions but the bought in job is 'kin
expensive.



--
Tim Lamb

On 28/08/2015 14:43, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Nightjar
cpb" "insert my surname writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair
mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed
re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

Do you have any drop in river level across your land? If so, you might
consider an hydraulic ram. They are ideal for giving a high head low
flow output from a low head high flow source, without any external
power required.

Fine for a clean stream over a hard bed but this is the Lea with a high
silt burden, tidal flow from upstream sewage plant and numerous surface
water drain discharges.

One of the advantages of the hydraulic ram is that it doesn't need clean
water. Large debris needs to be stopped from entering, but a simple
inlet strainer will do that.


Fall over a gravelly stretch might give a local 3mph flow.

There are designs about for d-i-y versions but the bought in job is 'kin
expensive.

So you know which version to go for :-)


--
Colin Bignell

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 18:46:18 +0100, "Nightjar.me.uk" wrote:

Fine for a clean stream over a hard bed but this is the Lea with a
high
silt burden, tidal flow from upstream sewage plant and numerous
surface
water drain discharges.

One of the advantages of the hydraulic ram is that it doesn't need clean
water. Large debris needs to be stopped from entering, but a simple
inlet strainer will do that.

Aye, though I'd be tempted to have some form of flow through inlet
chamber to maintain a few inches of water above the inlet pipe and
it's strainer. The flow into the chamber having some courser
straining as well.

Fall over a gravelly stretch might give a local 3mph flow.

It's not the speed of the flow that is important but the volume per
unit time that is available.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Chris Hogg wrote:

Nightjar wrote:

Do you have any drop in river level across your land? If so, you might
consider an hydraulic ram.

+1. You beat me to it!

Get one that's guaranteed *forever*

http://www.greenandcarter.com/main/products.htm

On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

Pity. A solar powered pond fountain pump on a car battery will do quite
nicely for a greenhouse watering system.

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

Your best bet is a float switch and a couple of deep discharge batteries
and swap as and when needed. Even the solar powered greenhouse pump
couldn't keep up with thirsty plants on solar power.

It worked nicely on a 7Ah SLA though with the solar PV array just used
to marginally extend battery life.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28/08/2015 14:32, Martin Brown wrote:
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair
mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

Pity. A solar powered pond fountain pump on a car battery will do quite
nicely for a greenhouse watering system.

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed
re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

Your best bet is a float switch and a couple of deep discharge batteries
and swap as and when needed. Even the solar powered greenhouse pump
couldn't keep up with thirsty plants on solar power.

It worked nicely on a 7Ah SLA though with the solar PV array just used
to marginally extend battery life.


+1. My other thought, if it is windy, would be to charge the battery
with a windmill connected to an old car alternator. More cost-effective
than a solar panel, and genuine DIY!

At one time, wind powered mechanical pumps were not uncommon on UK
farmland. ISTR that the fan (which had six or eight flat steel blades)
was about 5 feet in diameter, and it was mounted on an angle iron pylon
about 30 feet tall. A mechanical drive shaft came down to an underground
pump.

On 28/08/2015 15:57, newshound wrote:
On 28/08/2015 14:32, Martin Brown wrote:

It worked nicely on a 7Ah SLA though with the solar PV array just used
to marginally extend battery life.


+1. My other thought, if it is windy, would be to charge the battery
with a windmill connected to an old car alternator. More cost-effective
than a solar panel, and genuine DIY!

At one time, wind powered mechanical pumps were not uncommon on UK
farmland. ISTR that the fan (which had six or eight flat steel blades)
was about 5 feet in diameter, and it was mounted on an angle iron pylon
about 30 feet tall. A mechanical drive shaft came down to an underground
pump.

Yes. The small wind turbines with about 1m diameter aren't at all bad if
the thing is far enough away not to hear it whining gently.

Proper DIY too car alternator and a few bits of bent metal!

The simplest possible is a 45 gallon drum sawn in half back and assemble
S shaped to back and held axis vertically in a frame.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 28/08/2015 15:57, newshound wrote:
On 28/08/2015 14:32, Martin Brown wrote:

It worked nicely on a 7Ah SLA though with the solar PV array just used
to marginally extend battery life.


+1. My other thought, if it is windy, would be to charge the battery
with a windmill connected to an old car alternator. More cost-effective
than a solar panel, and genuine DIY!

At one time, wind powered mechanical pumps were not uncommon on UK
farmland. ISTR that the fan (which had six or eight flat steel blades)
was about 5 feet in diameter, and it was mounted on an angle iron pylon
about 30 feet tall. A mechanical drive shaft came down to an underground
pump.

Yes. The small wind turbines with about 1m diameter aren't at all bad
if the thing is far enough away not to hear it whining gently.

Proper DIY too car alternator and a few bits of bent metal!

The simplest possible is a 45 gallon drum sawn in half back and
assemble S shaped to back and held axis vertically in a frame.

Cue vandals lobbing rocks:-(


--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:57:59 +0100, newshound wrote:

At one time, wind powered mechanical pumps were not uncommon on UK
farmland. ISTR that the fan (which had six or eight flat steel blades)
was about 5 feet in diameter, and it was mounted on an angle iron pylon
about 30 feet tall. A mechanical drive shaft came down to an underground
pump.

The ones I've seen have the fan attached to an axle with a crank in
it. A solid link connects from there to the reciprocating pump at
water level. As fan goes round, link goes up and down operating the
pump, simples.

OK I guess the link is still a "drive shaft" but it's not a
rotational one.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:20:59 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:57:59 +0100, newshound wrote:

At one time, wind powered mechanical pumps were not uncommon on UK
farmland. ISTR that the fan (which had six or eight flat steel blades)
was about 5 feet in diameter, and it was mounted on an angle iron pylon
about 30 feet tall. A mechanical drive shaft came down to an
underground pump.

The ones I've seen have the fan attached to an axle with a crank in it.
A solid link connects from there to the reciprocating pump at water
level. As fan goes round, link goes up and down operating the pump,
simples.

OK I guess the link is still a "drive shaft" but it's not a rotational
one.

It's not a drive shaft, it's a bloody long connecting rod ('con rod'). A
cheap and elegantly simple and efficient means of using wind power to
drive a water pump.

If you're after extracting wind energy in the form of electrical energy,
an automotive alternator is the least suitable generator for this type
scheme on account of the 50 to 60 watts field excitation vampire load
used at minimum rpm generator speed.

This vampire load isn't a problem when the prime mover runs at a
guaranteed minimum rpm which can maintain, via pulley gearing, a minimum
usable charging output at tick-over with a source of battery power to
provide the initial excitation without recourse to reliance on residual
magnetism and a burst of very high rpm to bootstrap the excitation
current from 'nothing at all' in the absence of such a source of battery
power.

For a modestly sized wind turbine, best practice has always been to use
a permanent magnet rotor alternator with a switching regulator to provide
efficient voltage stabilisation. Furthermore, the designs of such PM
alternators are normally optimised to operate at the wind turbine shaft
speed in order to avoid mechanical losses in a step up ratio gearbox or
pulley system (or at least eliminate the need for a large step up ratio).

--
Johnny B Good

On Saturday, 29 August 2015 19:44:10 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:20:59 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:57:59 +0100, newshound wrote:

At one time, wind powered mechanical pumps were not uncommon on UK
farmland. ISTR that the fan (which had six or eight flat steel blades)
was about 5 feet in diameter, and it was mounted on an angle iron pylon
about 30 feet tall. A mechanical drive shaft came down to an
underground pump.

The ones I've seen have the fan attached to an axle with a crank in it.
A solid link connects from there to the reciprocating pump at water
level. As fan goes round, link goes up and down operating the pump,
simples.

OK I guess the link is still a "drive shaft" but it's not a rotational
one.

It's not a drive shaft, it's a bloody long connecting rod ('con rod'). A
cheap and elegantly simple and efficient means of using wind power to
drive a water pump.

If you're after extracting wind energy in the form of electrical energy,
an automotive alternator is the least suitable generator for this type
scheme on account of the 50 to 60 watts field excitation vampire load
used at minimum rpm generator speed.

that is a downside, but in other respects it has upsides

This vampire load isn't a problem when the prime mover runs at a
guaranteed minimum rpm which can maintain, via pulley gearing, a minimum
usable charging output at tick-over with a source of battery power to
provide the initial excitation without recourse to reliance on residual
magnetism and a burst of very high rpm to bootstrap the excitation
current from 'nothing at all' in the absence of such a source of battery
power.

This is a widespread belief, but wrong. I've bump started a car with no battery connected at way below 1000rpm, probably nearer 100rpm at a guess. Residual magnetism is what does it, and it bootstraps effectively at very low revs.

For a modestly sized wind turbine, best practice has always been to use
a permanent magnet rotor alternator with a switching regulator to provide
efficient voltage stabilisation. Furthermore, the designs of such PM
alternators are normally optimised to operate at the wind turbine shaft
speed in order to avoid mechanical losses in a step up ratio gearbox or
pulley system (or at least eliminate the need for a large step up ratio).

Yes, best commercial practice is often not what's wanted when you homebrew though.


NT

How does pole mounting it help?
You really need a tracking system, but I don't know, so many things to
consider. Why not make it battery powered and let the sun charge the
batteries but if power is low due to lack of sun, you would need a back up
charger from the mains.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small bunch
so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the bottom
of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head plus
flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed
re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!
--
Tim Lamb

On 28/08/2015 15:24, Brian-Gaff wrote:
How does pole mounting it help?
You really need a tracking system, but I don't know, so many things to
consider. Why not make it battery powered and let the sun charge the
batteries but if power is low due to lack of sun, you would need a back up
charger from the mains.
Brian

A tracking system is just one more thing to go wrong.

You might want to make the tilt angle adjustable so that you can
maximise solar gain and put a cheap mirror either side at 60 degree
angle to roughly double the flux. Any more concentrated than that and
you cook the panel leading to premature aging.

Last time I costed this sort of thing (for a greenhouse) a pair of
decent SLAs and a charger won hands down. The solar powered pump worked
really well when on a lead acid battery but was rubbish on its as
designed solar panel (no wonder the original maker went bust!).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 28/08/2015 15:24, Brian-Gaff wrote:
How does pole mounting it help?
You really need a tracking system, but I don't know, so many things to
consider. Why not make it battery powered and let the sun charge the
batteries but if power is low due to lack of sun, you would need a back up
charger from the mains.
Brian

A tracking system is just one more thing to go wrong.

You might want to make the tilt angle adjustable so that you can
maximise solar gain and put a cheap mirror either side at 60 degree
angle to roughly double the flux. Any more concentrated than that and
you cook the panel leading to premature aging.

Is that 60deg. top/bottom rather than East/West?

Last time I costed this sort of thing (for a greenhouse) a pair of
decent SLAs and a charger won hands down. The solar powered pump worked
really well when on a lead acid battery but was rubbish on its as
designed solar panel (no wonder the original maker went bust!).

Stock and water can be checked daily on foot. Lugging batteries requires
a vehicle and access across potentially boggy ground.

I was hoping for something completely hands off.


--
Tim Lamb

On 28/08/2015 20:48, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 28/08/2015 15:24, Brian-Gaff wrote:
How does pole mounting it help?
You really need a tracking system, but I don't know, so many things to
consider. Why not make it battery powered and let the sun charge the
batteries but if power is low due to lack of sun, you would need a
back up
charger from the mains.
Brian

A tracking system is just one more thing to go wrong.

You might want to make the tilt angle adjustable so that you can
maximise solar gain and put a cheap mirror either side at 60 degree
angle to roughly double the flux. Any more concentrated than that and
you cook the panel leading to premature aging.

Is that 60deg. top/bottom rather than East/West?

Pointing due south with the elevation angle chosen to match the suns at
transit. The configuration in ASCII art is \_/ where the bottom
horizontal is the PV panel and the diagonals are mirrors.

The simplest optimised non focussing flux concentrator solution is a
truncated parabola on either side with each having a focus at the
opposite side of the PV array. You can get gains of around 10x this way
but it really will cook the PV array even with active cooling.

It is optimal in the sense that any photon that enters the front
aperture with perfect mirrors will eventually hit the sensor. Draw the
ray diagrams to understand how it works for the simple hexagonal mirror
configuration (which can be made very robust).

These things originally come from HEP and neutrino detection experiments
but were known back in the 1970's oil crisis.

It is a bit dated now but this ancient 70's alternative energy book has
some interesting stuff.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Energy-prime...Primer+portola

Major snag is it assumes a US latitude so some things don't work here. I
can't recall if it has the concentrators though - I suspect they came
later in a UK published "Solar Power" book.



Last time I costed this sort of thing (for a greenhouse) a pair of
decent SLAs and a charger won hands down. The solar powered pump
worked really well when on a lead acid battery but was rubbish on its
as designed solar panel (no wonder the original maker went bust!).

Stock and water can be checked daily on foot. Lugging batteries requires
a vehicle and access across potentially boggy ground.

I was hoping for something completely hands off.


I'd still recommend wind power as the preferred solution!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28/08/2015 21:19, Martin Brown wrote:


The simplest optimised non focussing flux concentrator solution is a
truncated parabola on either side with each having a focus at the
opposite side of the PV array. You can get gains of around 10x this way
but it really will cook the PV array even with active cooling.

My solar thermal panels have such a reflector behind the tubes.

I have been contemplating making a big flat reflector out of mylar film
(space blankets) and putting it at the base almost horizontal to
increase the flux in winter.

In message , Brian-Gaff
writes
How does pole mounting it help?
You really need a tracking system, but I don't know, so many things to
consider. Why not make it battery powered and let the sun charge the
batteries but if power is low due to lack of sun, you would need a back up
charger from the mains.

Pole mounting keeps it out of reach of local vandals. One possible site
is 1/2 mile from the farmhouse and unsupervised apart from the
fishermen.

Batteries could be part of the mix although electric fence batteries are
regularly stolen here.

--
Tim Lamb

"Brian-Gaff" wrote in message
...

How does pole mounting it help?

He said for security, presumably makes it harder to steal.

You really need a tracking system, but I don't know, so many things to
consider. Why not make it battery powered and let the sun charge the
batteries but if power is low due to lack of sun, you would need a back up
charger from the mains.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small bunch
so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed
re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!
--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:09:04 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

Go passive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram

Not overly effcient with a 10 m lift, but I bet it can still deliver
water faster than the stock can drink it.

Highly reliable, very low maintenance, simple in operation. Noise of
the valve slamming shut every few tens of seconds might be a problem,
box it in?

Just let it run 24/7 and the top tank overflow to somewhere that the
stock won't turn into a quagmire.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydraulic-Ram-Pump/
Plastic I suspect it might not last too long but gives the idea from
modern parts.

Or the Real Thing:

http://www.greenandcarter.com/index.htm

These are definately "agriculutral" seriously over engineered and
with lifts up to 1000' rather more than I think you need. The price
follows the quality over engineering so you probably won't like it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Friday, 28 August 2015 10:09:13 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair
mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed
re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!


Solar PV & battery is a recipe for unreliability. I'd be more tempted to have a windmill directly mechanically drive a small pump.


NT

On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....



What kind of livestock? I've seen cattle operating pumps themselves by
pushing a large padded lever with their heads.

--
Reentrant

On Saturday, 29 August 2015 10:57:45 UTC+1, Reentrant wrote:
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....



What kind of livestock? I've seen cattle operating pumps themselves by
pushing a large padded lever with their heads.

Maybe if they had to tread on a slight step to reach the water they wouldn't need training. If each approach yields more water than each drink...


NT

In message ,
Reentrant writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....



What kind of livestock? I've seen cattle operating pumps themselves by
pushing a large padded lever with their heads.

Yes. They are cleverer than they look.

I think they only work from a header or pressurised supply.

Choice is beef cattle or sheep. Sheep better. There is about 3k of
public rights of way on this small farm. Dog proof fencing helps but
sheep will always be vulnerable to momentary thoughtlessness.

Cattle need winter housing apart from a few hardy breeds which means
bedding, feed and more labour.

My objective is to reduce my input; perhaps by offering the land on a
*farm business tenancy* basis.


--
Tim Lamb

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:02:34 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message ,
Reentrant writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair
mode.....



My objective is to reduce my input; perhaps by offering the land on a
*farm business tenancy* basis.


If you are considering a FBT why are you looking to put in a water pump?
I doubt you'd get extra rent because of it and you are likely to get more
hassle if it breaks down.

Let the occupier sort his own water.

In message , Mark
Allread writes
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:02:34 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

In message ,
Reentrant writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair
mode.....



My objective is to reduce my input; perhaps by offering the land on a
*farm business tenancy* basis.


If you are considering a FBT why are you looking to put in a water pump?
I doubt you'd get extra rent because of it and you are likely to get more
hassle if it breaks down.

Let the occupier sort his own water.

He would just leave the gates open so the stock can reach the river at a
stroke undoing years of carefully training the GP (no major insults
intended) to keep strictly to the marked paths.

--
Tim Lamb

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:02:34 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message ,
Reentrant writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....



What kind of livestock? I've seen cattle operating pumps themselves by
pushing a large padded lever with their heads.

Yes. They are cleverer than they look.

I think they only work from a header or pressurised supply.

Some like this will pump from a watercourse but not for the figures
you mentioned,
http://mcveighparker.com/content/aqu...sture-pump-kit

Not cheap and I wonder how it lasts before needing attention.
Others have mentioned Hydraulic Rams and there is a company which is
based in Cornwall who makes a modern version out of strong plastics ,
they don't call it a Hydraulic ram but that is essentially what it is,
I saw them the other day at the Gillingham and Shaftesbury show, but
dammed if I can remember their name, Ahh found them
http://www.waterpoweredtechnologies.com/products

Southwest water were promoting them a couple of years ago and may even
have an interest in them.
They put out this PDF with some info though it is an advert.
https://www.southwes****er.co.uk/med...rm_estates.pdf

G.Harman

In message ,
writes
I think they only work from a header or pressurised supply.

Some like this will pump from a watercourse but not for the figures
you mentioned,
http://mcveighparker.com/content/aqu...sture-pump-kit

Not cheap and I wonder how it lasts before needing attention.
Others have mentioned Hydraulic Rams and there is a company which is
based in Cornwall who makes a modern version out of strong plastics ,
they don't call it a Hydraulic ram but that is essentially what it is,
I saw them the other day at the Gillingham and Shaftesbury show, but
dammed if I can remember their name, Ahh found them
http://www.waterpoweredtechnologies.com/products

Southwest water were promoting them a couple of years ago and may even
have an interest in them.
They put out this PDF with some info though it is an advert.
https://www.southwes****er.co.uk/med...umping_for_far
m_estates.pdf

I think this type require a minimum of 1m supply head which I don't have
without going back to the old mill leat system.



--
Tim Lamb

On 30/08/2015 00:37, wrote:


Not cheap and I wonder how it lasts before needing attention.
Others have mentioned Hydraulic Rams and there is a company which is
based in Cornwall who makes a modern version out of strong plastics ,
they don't call it a Hydraulic ram but that is essentially what it is,
I saw them the other day at the Gillingham and Shaftesbury show, but
dammed if I can remember their name, Ahh found them
http://www.waterpoweredtechnologies.com/products

Do you think he has space for a venturo pump?
What could you do with 28 million litres a day?
I think a small hydroelectric plant (~100MW) and sell the animals would
be better if there was enough flow for one of those.

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 11:55:58 +0100, dennis@home
wrote:

On 30/08/2015 00:37, wrote:


Not cheap and I wonder how it lasts before needing attention.
Others have mentioned Hydraulic Rams and there is a company which is
based in Cornwall who makes a modern version out of strong plastics ,
they don't call it a Hydraulic ram but that is essentially what it is,
I saw them the other day at the Gillingham and Shaftesbury show, but
dammed if I can remember their name, Ahh found them
http://www.waterpoweredtechnologies.com/products

Do you think he has space for a venturo pump?
What could you do with 28 million litres a day?
I think a small hydroelectric plant (~100MW) and sell the animals would
be better if there was enough flow for one of those.

I don't know if you are trying to be A* humorous ,B*sarcastic or are
C*just too stupid to navigate an admittedly not particularly well
designed web site and make a choice of what could be available from
the options offered.

A picture is worth a thousand words so just for you here is a link to
a video of the pump that possibly could have been utilised for the OP
situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snz4JoGTgeE

Unless the bloke in the video is a perfectly proportioned really small
midget then the pump unit looks a more than capable of being fitted on
the average farm.

A* Not obvious
B* Looked at the wrong section of website?
C* Applies if A and B don't.

Please select amount of indignation according to selection above.

G.Harman

On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

High pressure diaphragm pump like ebay 261731991506. Some kind of
filter to keep crud out.

Float switch like ebay 181572279510

Decent battery and small PV panel with charger.

Sorted.

In message , Vortex11
writes
On 28/08/2015 10:09, Tim Lamb wrote:
A back of the mind project while you are all still in deck chair mode.....

How feasible would it be to construct a livestock watering system from
*off the shelf* components? A pond fountain won't do:-)

A standard water trough holds enough water for 2-3 days for a small
bunch so permanent sunshine not too big an issue.

The problems are pump head/pressure. Inevitably the river is at the
bottom of the hill so I might need something to overcome 10m static head
plus flow losses and anything found at the control valve.

Also how to control the pump? Pressure cut off with a 30min timed re-start?

Do low flow reciprocating pumps exist?

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

High pressure diaphragm pump like ebay 261731991506. Some kind of
filter to keep crud out.

Looks the job. I note the source address although Amazon have the same
item for more money.

Float switch like ebay 181572279510

Couldn't find that. Trough and pump are likely to be 100m+ apart so
pressure switch might be simpler.

60W 5l/min. Say 100l 20 mins at 5 amps. OK for a leisure battery.

It begins to sound doable:-)

Decent battery and small PV panel with charger.

Sorted.

--
Tim Lamb

For security, I had in mind putting the array on top of an 18' scaffold
pole but how big is the collector likely to be? Wind damage?

Cost. This is agricultural!

High pressure diaphragm pump like ebay 261731991506. Some kind of
filter to keep crud out.

Looks the job. I note the source address although Amazon have the same
item for more money.

Float switch like ebay 181572279510

Couldn't find that. Trough and pump are likely to be 100m+ apart so
pressure switch might be simpler.

60W 5l/min. Say 100l 20 mins at 5 amps. OK for a leisure battery.

It begins to sound doable:-)

Decent battery and small PV panel with charger.

Sorted.


I guess at these low flow rates resistance will be nominal if you use
(say) 20mm MDPE pipe. I'd be inclined to pick up and set up a pump and
validate the real flow rates in situ before sizing any charging arrangement.