Does anyone make a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) powerful enough to run
a 1/2 HP - 240V submersible water pump?

We live in a rural area which means we have occasional power outages,
usually at the worst times. Unfortunately, when the power goes out, so does
our water supply. That means we can't wash up, flush the toilets, or even
get a drink of water when the power goes out. We're building a new house
that will have a wood stove as a means of backup heating. We could even
heat pans of water on the woodstove if we needed to for bathing, dish
washing, etc. But, we still need a supply of water that will last a day or
two.

I'm not interested in a gas generator as it would seldom be used, would
require maintenance, and would require that we hike out to the pump house
in the worst weather to start it up. In addition, we have a 250 gallon
pressure tank, so the pump really only runs a short time when needed to
refill the pressure tank.

So, I'd like to find a system that uses a battery and an inverter to power
the pump, with provisions to automatically keep the battery charged up when
we do have power. It should be totally self maintaining, no switches to
flip, no generators to start, etc. Just like a UPS you would use for a
computer, only large enough to run the 240V pump.

Any ideas who would make something like this?

Better yet, is there a way we could add additional pressure tanks or
something to ensure that we always have a large supply of water? It always
seems like we lose power just as the pressure tank is about empty. So, we
rarely ever have the full 250 gallons when the power goes out.

For what it's worth, our pump house is located about 150 feet from our
house. The pressure tank and all pump equipment is in the pumphouse, and
has it's own power separate from the house.

Thanks,

Anthony

Batteries can go bad and need replacement. Plus you would need quite a few
to run a pump. Thus the cost of maintenance would probably be higher than
that of a generator in the long term.

I would think a larger capacity pressure tank would be the least expensive
in the long run. It would be a one time expense with little or no
maintenance. You just need to figure out how much water you use in a day
and then remember what the longest outage was, then get a tank which will
hold that much water and still have pressure.

"HerHusband" wrote in message
Does anyone make a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) powerful enough to
run
a 1/2 HP - 240V submersible water pump?

We live in a rural area which means we have occasional power outages,
usually at the worst times. Unfortunately, when the power goes out, so
does
our water supply. That means we can't wash up, flush the toilets, or even
get a drink of water when the power goes out. We're building a new house
that will have a wood stove as a means of backup heating. We could even
heat pans of water on the woodstove if we needed to for bathing, dish
washing, etc. But, we still need a supply of water that will last a day
or
two.

I'm not interested in a gas generator as it would seldom be used, would
require maintenance, and would require that we hike out to the pump house
in the worst weather to start it up. In addition, we have a 250 gallon
pressure tank, so the pump really only runs a short time when needed to
refill the pressure tank.

So, I'd like to find a system that uses a battery and an inverter to
power
the pump, with provisions to automatically keep the battery charged up
when
we do have power. It should be totally self maintaining, no switches to
flip, no generators to start, etc. Just like a UPS you would use for a
computer, only large enough to run the 240V pump.

Any ideas who would make something like this?

Better yet, is there a way we could add additional pressure tanks or
something to ensure that we always have a large supply of water? It
always
seems like we lose power just as the pressure tank is about empty. So, we
rarely ever have the full 250 gallons when the power goes out.

For what it's worth, our pump house is located about 150 feet from our
house. The pressure tank and all pump equipment is in the pumphouse, and
has it's own power separate from the house.

Thanks,

Anthony

HerHusband wrote:

Does anyone make a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) powerful enough to run
a 1/2 HP - 240V submersible water pump?

A UPS by design, is about keeping the power on during those short
periods, for computers.

I'm not interested in a gas generator as it would seldom be used, would
require maintenance, and would require that we hike out to the pump house
in the worst weather to start it up. In addition, we have a 250 gallon
pressure tank, so the pump really only runs a short time when needed to
refill the pressure tank.

You need something that would kick on after a bit, as maybe ten seconds
or so, as you don't need that complete uninteruptablity.

So, I'd like to find a system that uses a battery and an inverter to power
the pump, with provisions to automatically keep the battery charged up when
we do have power. It should be totally self maintaining, no switches to
flip, no generators to start, etc. Just like a UPS you would use for a
computer, only large enough to run the 240V pump.

I'd suggest a battery backup, with an inverter to power the pump. It
would charge off the lines (or maybe solar as well) and would run the
pump just fine.

Any ideas who would make something like this?

Trace is a provider of inverters. Try one of the solar energy news
groups for more information on a setup like this, even if you don't add
a solar panel for charging. If you did, it would lower your electric
bill.

What you want does not exist. UPS units do go bad, and they not cheap to
fix. A properly maintained UPS unit needs the batterioes replaced at least
every 2 years. Additionally, the cheapest UPS that will handle 240V would
run you about $1000.

Also, the run times are very small. A "big" UPS for a computer can keep the
power for about 2 hours, and I am talking about a huge UPS for a PC.
Normally a UPS, used at it's rated power can give you about 30 minutes of
power when the batteries are new.

Anyway, the setup we use here is that we have all the PCs in the server room
attached to UPS units, but we have a generator that kicks in at an outage
after about 30 seconds of no power. Even with that setup some computers
turned off because of bad batteries.

I would just go for a generator if I were you.
--
gabriel

HerHusband wrote:

We live in a rural area which means we have occasional power outages,
usually at the worst times. Unfortunately, when the power goes out,
so does our water supply. That means we can't wash up, flush the
toilets, or even get a drink of water when the power goes out. We're
building a new house that will have a wood stove as a means of backup
heating. We could even heat pans of water on the woodstove if we
needed to for bathing, dish washing, etc. But, we still need a supply
of water that will last a day or two.

I don't know if this would work, but it's something to think about.

I've wondered about putting a tank on the 2nd floor of the house. (Like a
water heater, but not hooked up to heat the water.) When the power goes off
and pressure goes down, ISTM the first floor toilet could get a few flushes,
gravity fed, from the 2nd floor storage tank.

I don't know about "water hammer" issues, though.

Any comments are welcome.

-- Mark

gabriel wrote:
I've wondered about putting a tank on the 2nd floor of the house.
(Like a

This is exactly what the third world countries do (except the tank is
on the roof). Large cities do not have a good water system, so they
"rotate" water pressure around the city. Your house might get water
for 8 or 16 hours a day, for example.

These places have one or two reservoirs on top of the house, all the
water into the house (and the water heater, etc..) comes from the
reservoirs. The rich people have an additional underground reservoir
that feeds the reservoirs on the roof through an electric pump
(either manually or automatically operated). This is a lot of water
that gets stored!

With a properly-designed system (you'd have to hire a 3rd world
engineer, but they really have the physics of this down), you can get
a decent gravity-pressurized water system. The water pipes have to
be sized and routed correctly.

Thanks! Your reply is a keeper!

-- Mark

I've wondered about putting a tank on the 2nd floor of the house. (Like a

This is exactly what the third world countries do (except the tank is on the
roof). Large cities do not have a good water system, so they "rotate" water
pressure around the city. Your house might get water for 8 or 16 hours a
day, for example.

These places have one or two reservoirs on top of the house, all the water
into the house (and the water heater, etc..) comes from the reservoirs. The
rich people have an additional underground reservoir that feeds the
reservoirs on the roof through an electric pump (either manually or
automatically operated). This is a lot of water that gets stored!

With a properly-designed system (you'd have to hire a 3rd world engineer,
but they really have the physics of this down), you can get a decent
gravity-pressurized water system. The water pipes have to be sized and
routed correctly.

--
gabriel

In article rs.com, gabriel
says...

I've wondered about putting a tank on the 2nd floor of the house. (Like a

This is exactly what the third world countries do (except the tank is on the
roof)...


Yep, this is what I found in rural Thailand in 1995. The water system ran
throughout the country, primarily an exposed 3" pvc pipe alongside the road,
and buried very shallow to cross a road. Every house had a single tap connected
by a small flexible water line (about 1/2").

People simply used the central water system to refill their existing water
containers, which were large, outside pottery jars in the most primitve cases,
indoor cement tanks in the moderate homes, and rooftop tanks for homes and
businesses that had water pressure.

In most cases, people just left their tap open *all the time*, so flow was
reduced to a mere trickle, but that was enough to slowly refill the tanks.

Homes without water pressure used water by dipping from the tanks. A smaller
tank was beside the toilet to permit flushing by pouring water down the hole.
In the home we stayed in, a small frog lived in the indoor tank, which was
about 200 gallons or so. Didn't drink the water, but locals used it for
cooking, washing dishes, etc., so a case of intestinal something followed me
home despite my being careful.

DT

DT wrote:

water, but locals used it for cooking, washing dishes, etc., so a case
of intestinal something followed me home despite my being careful.

LOL! Yeah, you gotta build up a stomach to not get sick. It really helps
if you boil the water before drinking, but you really cannot get away from
it unless you also cook for yourself, and then cook everything thoroughly.

The reservoirs are getting better in places like Mexico, where they have
been coming out with sealed reservoirs for the past 5-10 years. It really
makes a difference in the cleanliness of the water.

I can't help but remember when I opened the tap in Mexico one day and a
large-ish (6-8 inch) red-orange centipede came out right before i put my
hands in to wash them. To this day, I do not know who was more scared, the
centipede or I!
--
gabriel

According to HerHusband :
Does anyone make a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) powerful enough to run
a 1/2 HP - 240V submersible water pump?

Many manufacturers make UPSes that big, the problem being you need a _big_
one, and the price will be appalling. And when sitting outside during
the bad weather you need it for, battery life and runtime will be a
serious issue.

[Ie: lead-acid batteries lose a _lot_ of capacity below, say, -15C]

A 1/2HP water pump takes about 800W to run. About 2500W to start, but I'd
not think of using a generator smaller than 3500W.

You also have to be concerned about waveforms. The less expensive UPS's
generate square wave. Which induction motors such as your pump don't like.

You're looking at several thousand dollars worth of UPS. Which, chances
are, won't be working (or have much capacity) when you need it.

I just don't think UPSes are practical for running induction motors in a
residential situation. A gas generator is much more cost-effective, and
capable of extended operation. Which is what you need to recharge a 250gal
pressure tank anyway.

I'm working with a similar situation, and am (slowly) constructing a battery
backup system to provide small amounts of power during a power failure.
The _critical_ thing we need is to ensure that the sump keeps going. So,
I'm stringing in a 12V bilge pump that'll be able to push about 500GPH. With
the battery I've chosen, it's good for 20 hours of continuous run. Plus
a bit of 12V lighting, and a 400W inverter to supply AC for some small things
(like the small blower on the wood stove).

That's _all_ we need for a 48 hour outage.

If we ever go further, it'll be a 5500W (or more) gasoline generator - diesel
if I luck out and find one cheap.

You'll probably have better luck with a gas generator - keep it at the house,
and feed the pump from there. Or, maybe, you can wire in a 12V pump.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

HerHusband wrote:
Does anyone make a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) powerful enough to run
a 1/2 HP - 240V submersible water pump?

We live in a rural area which means we have occasional power outages,
usually at the worst times. Unfortunately, when the power goes out, so does
our water supply. That means we can't wash up, flush the toilets, or even
get a drink of water when the power goes out. We're building a new house
that will have a wood stove as a means of backup heating. We could even
heat pans of water on the woodstove if we needed to for bathing, dish
washing, etc. But, we still need a supply of water that will last a day or
two.

I'm not interested in a gas generator as it would seldom be used, would
require maintenance, and would require that we hike out to the pump house
in the worst weather to start it up. In addition, we have a 250 gallon
pressure tank, so the pump really only runs a short time when needed to
refill the pressure tank.

So, I'd like to find a system that uses a battery and an inverter to power
the pump, with provisions to automatically keep the battery charged up when
we do have power. It should be totally self maintaining, no switches to
flip, no generators to start, etc. Just like a UPS you would use for a
computer, only large enough to run the 240V pump.

Any ideas who would make something like this?

Better yet, is there a way we could add additional pressure tanks or
something to ensure that we always have a large supply of water? It always
seems like we lose power just as the pressure tank is about empty. So, we
rarely ever have the full 250 gallons when the power goes out.

For what it's worth, our pump house is located about 150 feet from our
house. The pressure tank and all pump equipment is in the pumphouse, and
has it's own power separate from the house.

Thanks,

Anthony
Years ago in Country Life (Canada) or Harrowsmith magazine I saw an
article on modifying your cars alternator to provide AC current. In this
case it was to provide for power tools on a farm when something broke
out in the fields.

I wonder if something like that would work for the occasional outages
although it was directed at supplying 120V not 240.

Probably a gravity tank is best. I keep thinking about this but in our
house it would have to live in unheated attic space and freezing would
be a big concern.

RS

According to Rob S :

Years ago in Country Life (Canada) or Harrowsmith magazine I saw an
article on modifying your cars alternator to provide AC current. In this
case it was to provide for power tools on a farm when something broke
out in the fields.

Years ago Northern Hydraulics used to sell an alternator modified to do
just that.

HOWEVER, you have virtually no control whatsoever about AC frequency -
indeed, I think the windings are set up for frequencies considerably higher
than 60hz for efficiency reasons.

A generator of this type would work just fine to run portable
power tools (which are virtually all universal motors - brush type,
they run on DC and AC) as long as the voltage was reasonable.

But this wouldn't work at all properly for an induction motor which needs
frequencies very near to 60 hz. Most motors for stationary devices (water
pumps etc) are induction motors.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

[Ie: lead-acid batteries lose a _lot_ of capacity below, say, -15C]

It rarely gets below freezing here in the Pacific Northwest.

A 1/2HP water pump takes about 800W to run. About 2500W to start

Thanks, that's a figure I've been looking for.

A gas generator is much more cost-effective, and capable of extended
operation. Which is what you need to recharge a 250gal pressure tank
anyway.

It only takes about 10-15 minutes to refill our pressure tank. And, if the
power goes out and we conserve our water usage, the pressure tank can
supply all the water we need for hours. A generator seems like a hassle to
install, maintain, and operate just for running a pump for 15 minutes.

If the power is out long enough that the batteries would go dead, we'll
have other issues than just the water supply.

You'll probably have better luck with a gas generator - keep it at the
house, and feed the pump from there.

Not practical. The house is too far away from the pump and the pump has
it's own power connection UPSTREAM of the house.

Anthony

According to HerHusband :
It only takes about 10-15 minutes to refill our pressure tank. And, if the
power goes out and we conserve our water usage, the pressure tank can
supply all the water we need for hours. A generator seems like a hassle to
install, maintain, and operate just for running a pump for 15 minutes.

If the power is out long enough that the batteries would go dead, we'll
have other issues than just the water supply.

When you price out a 2500W inverter[+] which may only be able to fire your
pump up for one and a half 15 minute sessions, then you'll have an "issue"
with your pulse rate ;-)

You'll probably have better luck with a gas generator - keep it at the
house, and feed the pump from there.

Not practical. The house is too far away from the pump and the pump has
it's own power connection UPSTREAM of the house.

I was thinking that may be part of this...

[+] more so even than gas generators (which have rotational inertia to help
with startup surges), you _really_ have to oversize the inverter for the
startup surge on a motor.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

When you price out a 2500W inverter[+] which may only be able to fire
your pump up for one and a half 15 minute sessions, then you'll have
an "issue" with your pulse rate ;-)

[+] more so even than gas generators (which have rotational inertia to
help with startup surges), you _really_ have to oversize the inverter
for the startup surge on a motor.

OK, it sounds like an inverter is probably not a cost effective option.
I've already ruled out a gas generator as well.

So, that leaves me with some kind of water tank.

A holding tank in the attic would not work very well either, as our well
feeds multiple buildings.

Is there some way an additional pressure tank can be added at the pumphouse
that will ensure that one of the tanks is always fully pressurized? I would
think just adding a 2nd tank would still leave the possibility that both
tanks could be near their empty state when the power goes off.

Maybe some kind of valve that would switch to the full tank when pressure
drops and refill the empty one?

Anthony

So, that leaves me with some kind of water tank.

A holding tank in the attic would not work very well either, as our well
feeds multiple buildings.

I don't understand why that matters.

According to HerHusband :
Is there some way an additional pressure tank can be added at the pumphouse
that will ensure that one of the tanks is always fully pressurized? I would
think just adding a 2nd tank would still leave the possibility that both
tanks could be near their empty state when the power goes off.

Add a second tank with a simple checkvalve. Whenever the system pressure
rises above the second tank's pressure, it'll fill. But when you draw water,
the second tank is prevented from participating by the checkvalve preventing
backflow.

When you lose power and the primary tank goes empty, you switch your
water feed to the other tank.

The "who is connected to the water feed now" valving need be nothing more
than a two-handle Y valve, or two separate ball valves.

[You want to disconnect the primary when you switch to the secondary to
avoid waste of air pressure repressurizing the empty tank.]

I'd do it symetrically, so both tanks have checkvalves on the "fill side",
and both tanks have ball valves on the "load side". So you can flip which
is which for maintenance etc.

Depending on your well, you may want to "flip" them every week or three to
ensure that the "secondary" doesn't go stale/breed bacteria. Professional
plumbers may want to comment here about long term storage of well water...

You could prevent this being an issue by, instead of using a
checkvalve, use an electric valve on the secondary, so when power shuts off,
the valve closes. Then both tanks will be in full operation during power-on,
and one gets disconnected and reserved for backup when power goes off.

You could probably use an irrigation valve (24V), which are only open when
they get power (from a small transformer in the pump shed). They're only
about 20-25 bucks at Home Depot for 1" units, and they do do high flow rates.
These valves may not like reverse flow and "flap" however.

Alternately, bite the bullet and put a monstrously huge tank on stilts -
no longer need to pressurize it.

I knew there was a use for water towers here somewhere ;-)
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.