Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Pretty sure the battery is a gonner and I'd not trust it anyway for a
semi-critical system. It'll be replaced but how to keep the new one
in good condition for years with it doing basically nothing. The
genset might called into service in anger once a year and
occasionally if it's "a while" since the last in anger run I'll fire
it up for a couple hours powering a fan heater to make sure it still
works.

So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want
to be fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the
night, by torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving
snow...

Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Any other suggestions?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Pretty sure the battery is a gonner and I'd not trust it anyway for a
semi-critical system. It'll be replaced but how to keep the new one
in good condition for years with it doing basically nothing. The
genset might called into service in anger once a year and
occasionally if it's "a while" since the last in anger run I'll fire
it up for a couple hours powering a fan heater to make sure it still
works.

So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want
to be fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the
night, by torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving
snow...

Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

Surely there must be really smart chargers around for just that situation ?

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Any other suggestions?

On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:45:37 +1000, Blano wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High Voltage
fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly flat. Pull
started the (diesel) generator and power came back about 1900. Even
after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough umph to
engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one end cell
looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is slighly
bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so may well
have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or 10/11 it got
below -10 C without much trouble.

Pretty sure the battery is a gonner and I'd not trust it anyway for a
semi-critical system. It'll be replaced but how to keep the new one in
good condition for years with it doing basically nothing. The genset
might called into service in anger once a year and occasionally if it's
"a while" since the last in anger run I'll fire it up for a couple
hours powering a fan heater to make sure it still works.

So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to use
plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want to be
fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the night, by
torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving snow...

Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

Surely there must be really smart chargers around for just that
situation ?

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the battery
than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing window so
not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long cable run,
proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round things.

Any other suggestions?

I have two car batteries on the go.
Both have been abused in the past by being let go flat in the car whilst
we were on a long holiday abroad.
Both have been brought back to life by a trickle charger and at the moment
I have one on charge and the other in the car. When one battery starts to
lose charge due to infrequent short journeys (especially over winter) I
swap them over.

Been doing this for 2 or 3 years now and both batteries seem to be holding
up.

The charger is an AccuMate which is claimed to be good both for
maintenance charging and recovering deeply discharged batteries.

So perhaps a good quality maintenance charger, and a heating strip/pad
linked to a thermostat wrapped around the battery to prevent freezing,
could keep your battery alive.

Cheers

Dave R



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

En el artículo , David
escribió:

So perhaps a good quality maintenance charger, and a heating strip/pad

One of those pads used for brewing wine/beer might do the job, and they
have the thermostat built in.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

En el artículo o.uk,
Dave Liquorice escribió:

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV.

A diode in the leads from the PV panel to prevent reverse current flow?

The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Think you're on a loser with that one.

How about putting a smart charger on a timer, so that it runs for only a
couple hours a day and doesn't dry the battery out by running all the
time?

Re. preventing the battery from freezing, maybe put it in one of those
polystyrene cool boxes, cut notch(es) in the lid for the cables? This
sort of thing:

http://www.automa.co.za/sites/defaul...ublic/field/im
age/AUT1175_2.jpg

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 05:49:39 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

The PV panel was in a north facing window so not ideal. To get
south
facing wuld require a rather long cable run, proably not far short
of
50m by the time you've gone round things.

Think you're on a loser with that one.

Possibly not as the current is low (1.5 W @ 12 V = 125 mA max) so
volt drop is also low (0.125 V per ohm)

How about putting a smart charger on a timer, so that it runs for only a
couple hours a day and doesn't dry the battery out by running all the
time?

That is an option if a suitable charger can be found. If buying a
charger one may as well try and get something designed to do the job
properly. I suspect that might not be easy.

Build something? Lead Acid are supposed to constant voltage charge
with the volatge set to provide bulk or (frequent) cycle float rates.
reducing the voltage to a level such that the current is very low (
10 mA?) starts me thinking that slight battery changes or even just
temperature change is going to affect the current drmatically. Would
a limited constant curent supply be better and pure DC or pulsed?

Re. preventing the battery from freezing, maybe put it in one of those
polystyrene cool boxes, cut notch(es) in the lid for the cables? This
sort of thing:

http://www.automa.co.za/sites/defaul...ublic/field/im
age/AUT1175_2.jpg

Not easy to retro fit around the battery tray on the genset, there
isn't much clearance from battery to frame/alternator etc. Also with
the garage at -10 C for a week nad near freezing for a month or so
either side I supect everything will get pretty cool insulated or
not. How much warmer would the watt or two from a float charger keep
the battery in such a box?

--
Cheers
Dave.

En el artículo o.uk,
Dave Liquorice escribió:

Possibly not as the current is low (1.5 W @ 12 V = 125 mA max) so
volt drop is also low (0.125 V per ohm)

True, but last time I looked 50m of cable isn't free

Not easy to retro fit around the battery tray on the genset, there
isn't much clearance from battery to frame/alternator etc.

store it on the floor next to the gen and run longer cables?

Also with
the garage at -10 C for a week nad near freezing for a month or so
either side I supect everything will get pretty cool insulated or
not.

Using a trickle charger on the battery will warm it up slightly. If you
used a charger on a timer, warming up the battery stored in a poly case
may be enough to prevent it freezing.

How much warmer would the watt or two from a float charger keep
the battery in such a box?

It wouldn't, but the battery itself will warm slightly during charging,
so if you could insulate it that may be all you need to prevent it
freezing.

Just some ideas.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Would not a simple silicon diode stop discharge though the cells?
Admittedly ou would need .6v extra from the cells, but....
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Pretty sure the battery is a gonner and I'd not trust it anyway for a
semi-critical system. It'll be replaced but how to keep the new one
in good condition for years with it doing basically nothing. The
genset might called into service in anger once a year and
occasionally if it's "a while" since the last in anger run I'll fire
it up for a couple hours powering a fan heater to make sure it still
works.

So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want
to be fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the
night, by torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving
snow...

Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Any other suggestions?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 06:56:04 +0100, Brian-Gaff wrote:

Would not a simple silicon diode stop discharge though the cells?

The PV Panel already has a diode. Pretty sure I measured the leakage
and decided it was significant, FSVO "significant". I can't say I can
support that idea now, the specs for the 1N400? series of diodes give
a leakage of 10uA max, or 0.08 AHr/year...

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
"Brian-Gaff" writes:
Would not a simple silicon diode stop discharge though the cells?
Admittedly ou would need .6v extra from the cells, but....

Schottkey diodes are normally used in this case - they can be down to
0.2V forward voltage drop.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

(Andrew Gabriel) writes:

In article ,
"Brian-Gaff" writes:
Would not a simple silicon diode stop discharge though the cells?
Admittedly ou would need .6v extra from the cells, but....

Schottkey diodes are normally used in this case - they can be down to
0.2V forward voltage drop.

Some Schottkys have a lot of reverse leakage, but I think you could
usually add another normal Si diode in series without much affecting
the few milliamps of trickle charge which would be needed to offset the
battery's self-discharge.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

On Sun, 09 Aug 2015 09:34:01 +0000, Windmill wrote:

(Andrew Gabriel) writes:

In article ,
"Brian-Gaff" writes:
Would not a simple silicon diode stop discharge though the cells?
Admittedly ou would need .6v extra from the cells, but....

Schottkey diodes are normally used in this case - they can be down to
0.2V forward voltage drop.

More like 350mV at 100mA on a 10 amp diode. You wouldn't be gaining very
much over an ordinary silicon rectifier diode in this case, especially
since the reverse leakage current is several orders of magnitude greater
than an equivilent rated silicon diode. The high reverse leakage isn't an
issue in smpsus where they offer a reduced forward volt drop on 3.3 and 5
volt supplies (450 to 500mV at their forward current rating).


Some Schottkys have a lot of reverse leakage, but I think you could
usually add another normal Si diode in series without much affecting the
few milliamps of trickle charge which would be needed to offset the
battery's self-discharge.

Each silicon PV cell produces an open cct voltage of about 700mV which
drops to around the 550mV mark at optimum loading. I think these panels
have 30 PV cells in series (mine, afaicr, produced a peak open cct
voltage of about 22v) so the inclusion of a cheap silicon diode makes
very little difference to the charging rate. Admittedly it loses just
over 1 PV cell's worth of voltage on load but, with 30 or so, that's
neither here nor there in such a simple solar cell charger as this.

Such 30 cell panels are standard for 12v Lead Acid battery based
systems. The use of a smart solar power controller will hold the voltage
to around the 17 volt mark to maximise the power transfer into the 12v
battery. Converting 17v down to 13.8v at an efficiency of 90%[1] produces
a higher charging current than simply letting the battery directly bog
the panel's voltage down to 13.8v.

At 90% efficiency you'll see almost an 11% boost in charge current
versus perhaps a 2 or 3 percent increase over the optimum 17v output
current by letting the battery load the voltage down to 13.8v. The output
impedance of solar panels is quite high creating an almost constant
current between the optimum 17v and the 12.5v almost flat battery
condition.

[1] 90% efficiency is a conservative estimate. Efficiencies for these
controllers is probably more like 95 to 98 percent for 12 and 24 volt
systems respectively. At 95% efficiency, the gain is even higher (17%
more current on the 13.8v output compared to the 17v input current from
the panel - around a 15% net gain over a direct connection to the
battery).

--
Johnny B Good

Dave Liquorice wrote :


So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want
to be fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the
night, by torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving
snow...

Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Any other suggestions?

Bringing it up to full charge once per month I find is the best
compromise for a battery which isn't used or rarely used. That what I
now do with the caravan battery. My last one, I left on 13.8v
permanently and it only lasted a few years before it needed
replacement, it had gassed itself dry.

I now just connect the battery every month to 3 months, to bring it
back up. I also ensure I leave it on charge longer than normal
following use of the mover, just before a trip, or on return from a
trip.

If you can find one, a plug in timer which can be set to come on once
per month for a couple of hours, would be ideal.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 08:55:39 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I now just connect the battery every month to 3 months, to bring it
back up.

Needs to be a near "fit 'n forget" solution. Something that needs to
be done evry three months or WHY probably won't be.

If you can find one, a plug in timer which can be set to come on once
per month for a couple of hours, would be ideal.

That is an alternative, if I can find a suitable charger. I think I
have a constant voltage power supply somewhere that could be
"adjusted on test" to give say a 50mA charge rate. Enough to
replenish the self discharge in a few hours but not enough to dry the
battery if the timeswitch fails to on.

Down side is lots of bits to fail. KISS ...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 01:56:11 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Any other suggestions?

Think out of the Box, Get an old Field Marshall tractor to drive a
generator, makes sure it has winter Diesel in.
Field Marshalls came with a cartridge start so no batteries to worry
about, insert cartiridge and whack with hammer.
As an added bonus everyone miles around will hear it running and know
you are comfy.

G.Harman

In message ,
writes
On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 01:56:11 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Any other suggestions?

Think out of the Box, Get an old Field Marshall tractor to drive a
generator, makes sure it has winter Diesel in.

Point of order.. My tractor diesel supplier says there is no such thing
as *winter grade* rebated fuel now. I used to avoid buying fuel after
April and before October but he says this is no longer necessary.

Field Marshalls came with a cartridge start so no batteries to worry
about, insert cartiridge and whack with hammer.

They also had an arrangement where you screwed a piece of lit corrugated
cardboard into the engine and then cranked a starting handle.

As an added bonus everyone miles around will hear it running and know
you are comfy.

G.Harman

--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 07 Aug 2015 08:59:25 +0100, wrote:

Think out of the Box, Get an old Field Marshall tractor to drive a
generator,

Another requirement (unfortunately) is that this needs to be doable
by SWMBO'd with or without the assistance or the kids, hence the
electric start in the first place...

As an added bonus everyone miles around will hear it running and know
you are comfy.

This single cylinder open frame diesel set isn't exactly "whisper
quiet". B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Time to change it. A good battery should be able to turn the engine over
after a couple of hours of charge.

How do car batteries get on in cold countries being outside all the
time;-?.

Pretty sure the battery is a gonner and I'd not trust it anyway for a
semi-critical system. It'll be replaced but how to keep the new one
in good condition for years with it doing basically nothing. The
genset might called into service in anger once a year and
occasionally if it's "a while" since the last in anger run I'll fire
it up for a couple hours powering a fan heater to make sure it still
works.

So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want
to be fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the
night, by torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving
snow...


Any other suggestions?


We have a genset thats almost under the same conditions, thats to say
lives outside in a sort of outhouse. We float charge the battery with a
13.8 volt power supply that IIRC delivers around 5 amps at most made
with a LT-1083 voltage regulator.

Works fine and has done so for around 4 to 5 years now since fitted.
We now and again just fire the genset up to see if it works and it does,
but it might be months between those events but the battery has never
failed to deliver and that must be some 8 years old or thereabouts
now....

FWIW..

We made up a very effective auto-start and changeover system using these
modules which aren't that expensive and do work well having been used in
anger around three times in as many months with a duff overhead
supply!..

http://www.gencontrol.co.uk/
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer writes:

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Time to change it. A good battery should be able to turn the engine over
after a couple of hours of charge.

How do car batteries get on in cold countries being outside all the
time;-?.

In Winnipeg car parks for employees, customers, etc. were often fitted
with sockets on poles into which you could plug your car's block heater
so that the engine remained well above freezing. Which also made it
easier to start.
Of course that was before all the disasters the West has suffered.
Don't know about nowadays.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

In article , Windmill spam-no-
lid scribeth thus
tony sayer writes:

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Time to change it. A good battery should be able to turn the engine over
after a couple of hours of charge.

How do car batteries get on in cold countries being outside all the
time;-?.

In Winnipeg car parks for employees, customers, etc. were often fitted
with sockets on poles into which you could plug your car's block heater
so that the engine remained well above freezing. Which also made it
easier to start.
Of course that was before all the disasters the West has suffered.
Don't know about nowadays.



Well even Dave's remote hilltop isn't quite as cold as Sweden and I
don't think Volvo owners have had to do that. And yes before anyone gets
wound up by that anything chemical does depend on temperature for its
speed of reaction....

But IIRC this battery which is on its last legs isn't quite out in the
open more in an outhouse and a bit of lagging around that with
polystyrene foam would keep the worse of the weather out and a simple
home brew float charger would keep it topped up..


We've dome quite a few of these over time a simple power transformer,
bridge rect one smoothing cap one reg current and voltage limited and
adjustable, been is use some 15 odd years.


http://www.linear.com/product/LT1083
--
Tony Sayer

On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 10:02:06 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

We have a genset thats almost under the same conditions, thats to say
lives outside in a sort of outhouse. We float charge the battery with a
13.8 volt power supply that IIRC delivers around 5 amps at most made
with a LT-1083 voltage regulator.

Any idea what current it sits at once charged? Need to balance enough
current to keep it charged against finger growth against "cooking".

We made up a very effective auto-start and changeover system using these
modules ....

Until I knock a hole in the garage wall and connect a pipe to the
"silencer" outlet autostart/change over isn't required. It's also
only a 2 kVA generator, enough for fridges/freezers/heating but not
the kettle!

http://www.gencontrol.co.uk/

What poor site to navigate. Left menu drop down drops down over the
menu. Pages with multiple products on don't tell you the basics of
what a given product is. Not even something like "Autostart
controller, 20 kVA, single phase".

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 10:02:06 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

We have a genset thats almost under the same conditions, thats to say
lives outside in a sort of outhouse. We float charge the battery with a
13.8 volt power supply that IIRC delivers around 5 amps at most made
with a LT-1083 voltage regulator.

Any idea what current it sits at once charged? Need to balance enough
current to keep it charged against finger growth against "cooking".


Don't know. Just set it to 13.8 volts and leave it at that they work
fine and we've been making them and doing that for some 15 odd years now
and never had a problem. The current is limited by the size of the reg
they come in three sizes we just use the 7.5 Amp ones....


We made up a very effective auto-start and changeover system using these
modules ....

Until I knock a hole in the garage wall and connect a pipe to the
"silencer" outlet autostart/change over isn't required. It's also
only a 2 kVA generator, enough for fridges/freezers/heating but not
the kettle!

http://www.gencontrol.co.uk/

What poor site to navigate. Left menu drop down drops down over the
menu. Pages with multiple products on don't tell you the basics of
what a given product is. Not even something like "Autostart
controller, 20 kVA, single phase".


Yes not that good but no worse than a lot of others, but very good and
well thought out units all the same...


The one we have looks at the Oil pressure light and when thats off it
knows the genny is running but if it came on while the genny is running
it shuts it down and tells you it has a a fault condition etc plus its
programmable for such as start attempts and lots of other useful
features...
--
Tony Sayer

On 07/08/2015 1:56 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
snip

Any other suggestions?



Actually, cycling is what me and a fiend decided to do with his system
The details are lost now as this was the early 80's but, we designed a
switching circuit based on low voltage and temperature and, a series of
random cyclic charge and discharge.

We discharged into a heater blanket he made from fibred sheets which
encased the batter sides. No great heat was produced but, it did reduced
the bitter cold, some. I might add, this was occasional as, I am talking
North West England. Nothing as dire as some places.

Similarly, you could get a mains plug with inbuilt timers. Find a
circuit with a double poled relay switch which will either be charging
or discharging such that the battery is always cycling?


....Ray.

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"Dave Liquorice" writes:

Power cut this afternoon about 1700, text from DNO saying High
Voltage fault off until 2030. Drag out generator, battery utterly
flat. Pull started the (diesel) generator and power came back about
1900. Even after that couple of hours the battery didn't have enough
umph to engage with the starter ring. It sits at about 11.5 V, one
end cell looks a bit low one electrolyte and the case at that end is
slighly bulging. Battery is kept on genset in the unheated garage so
may well have got frozen. Perhaps not last winter but in 9/10 or
10/11 it got below -10 C without much trouble.

Pretty sure the battery is a gonner and I'd not trust it anyway for a
semi-critical system. It'll be replaced but how to keep the new one
in good condition for years with it doing basically nothing. The
genset might called into service in anger once a year and
occasionally if it's "a while" since the last in anger run I'll fire
it up for a couple hours powering a fan heater to make sure it still
works.

So how do you molly codle a lead acid battery that doesn't get much
use? Keep it somewhere a bit warmer? Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current. I don't want
to be fiddling about reconnecting the battery in the middle of the
night, by torch light, whilst being battered by a gale and driving
snow...

Don't fancy the idea of having it on a charger all the time, even one
of the clever ones that drop to a "float" charge. I suspect that rate
will still be too high and dry the cells out over the months.

I have got a small PV panel that I had used with it before but wasn't
convinced that the dark/low light leakage drained more from the
battery than was put in by the PV. The PV panel was in a north facing
window so not ideal. To get south facing wuld require a rather long
cable run, proably not far short of 50m by the time you've gone round
things.

Doesn't the PV panel have a series diode on the output? If a normal Si
diode (not a Schottky) the reverse leakage should be almost
unmeasurable. If there isn't a diode (which I think would be unusual if
designed for battery charging) then you could add one.
But the charging current you'd get from a north-facing window would be
tiny. Did you measure it? If you use something cheap like phone or UTP
wire, the 50 metres to s south window needn't cost much, and you're
only looking for a trickle charge, are you not?


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

On Sun, 9 Aug 2015 09:31:09 GMT, Windmill wrote:

Doesn't the PV panel have a series diode on the output? If a normal Si
diode (not a Schottky) the reverse leakage should be almost
unmeasurable.

It does and the measuring bit is what I can't remember the details of
or the circuit. The LED and it's series resistor might be after the
diode...

But the charging current you'd get from a north-facing window would be
tiny. Did you measure it?

ISTR (badly) a few mA at 0.5 Hz or slower.

If you use something cheap like phone or UTP wire, the 50 metres to s
south window needn't cost much, and you're only looking for a trickle
charge, are you not?

This is true. Cat5 uses 8 * 24 SWG wires. 24 SWG is nearly 0.25 mm^2
so paralleling two pairs gives about 1 mm^2. 1 mm^2 has a resistance
of about 19 mOhms/m so 50 m is about 1 ohm or 2 ohms there and back.
2 ohms and 10 mA is 20 mV, not worth worrying about.

However any route to get south facing is really really tortious. B-(

But I might be able to expose the panel better without quite so much
bother. The panel is KISS compared to time switches, chargers, etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" writes:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2015 09:31:09 GMT, Windmill wrote:

Doesn't the PV panel have a series diode on the output? If a normal Si
diode (not a Schottky) the reverse leakage should be almost
unmeasurable.

It does and the measuring bit is what I can't remember the details of
or the circuit. The LED and it's series resistor might be after the
diode...

But the charging current you'd get from a north-facing window would be
tiny. Did you measure it?

ISTR (badly) a few mA at 0.5 Hz or slower.

I don't follow. Where does a frequency of 0.5 Hz come into it?

If you use something cheap like phone or UTP wire, the 50 metres to s
south window needn't cost much, and you're only looking for a trickle
charge, are you not?

This is true. Cat5 uses 8 * 24 SWG wires. 24 SWG is nearly 0.25 mm^2
so paralleling two pairs gives about 1 mm^2. 1 mm^2 has a resistance
of about 19 mOhms/m so 50 m is about 1 ohm or 2 ohms there and back.
2 ohms and 10 mA is 20 mV, not worth worrying about.

However any route to get south facing is really really tortious. B-(

But I might be able to expose the panel better without quite so much
bother. The panel is KISS compared to time switches, chargers, etc.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 02:33:14 GMT, Windmill wrote:

But the charging current you'd get from a north-facing window
would be
tiny. Did you measure it?

ISTR (badly) a few mA at 0.5 Hz or slower.

I don't follow. Where does a frequency of 0.5 Hz come into it?

The LED flashes, when on it takes most of the power from the panel,
off the battery gets it. The LED flashes as when on it pulls the
voltage below that required for the LED conduct so it stops this
means the voltage rises to the conduction point, repeat.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:13:39 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 02:33:14 GMT, Windmill wrote:

But the charging current you'd get from a north-facing window
would be
tiny. Did you measure it?

ISTR (badly) a few mA at 0.5 Hz or slower.

I don't follow. Where does a frequency of 0.5 Hz come into it?

The LED flashes, when on it takes most of the power from the panel,
off the battery gets it. The LED flashes as when on it pulls the voltage
below that required for the LED conduct so it stops this means the
voltage rises to the conduction point, repeat.

In other words, a faulty panel, one that's gone very high resistance in
the photo-cell array cct to the extent that the couple of milliamps drawn
by the self flashing blue LED indicator lamp is sufficient to drop the
voltage below the 12v mark during its on period.

It's been a while since I last bothered to test my own panels but istr a
short cct current in full direct sunlight of just over 100mA and around
80 to 90mA when charging a 12v SLA at around the 13.5 volt mark. At this
current level, it was just possible to see the 2mA modulation effect from
the self blinking blue led on an analogue multimeter.

For something *this* buggered, it will be worth prising the rubber/
plastic bungs out to undo the screws that retain the case halves together
and take a closer look.

If it's just a single cell out of the 30 or so that's gone HR, it's
probably worth strapping it out and accept the slightly reduced charging
current that results compared to its original spec. If you're lucky, it
might simply be a corroded connection you might be able to make good one
way or another. It's certainly worth taking it apart and taking a closer
look before chucking it out (whether it's whole or 'in bits' makes no
difference to the bin).

--
Johnny B Good

En el artículo , Huge
escribió:

That bit I *can* answer; Anderson Connectors.

APC use them on their UPSes where the batteries have a cable loom to
combine them in series and/or parallel. The Anderson connector is used
to connect the battery pack(s) to the UPS.

Shown he

http://images10.newegg.com/ProductIm...42-165-003CVF-
02.jpg

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Huge wrote:

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Huge wrote:

Anderson Connectors.

APC use them on their UPSes
http://images10.newegg.com/ProductIm...-003CVF-02.jpg

Indeed, but they are the 'small' 24 amp ones and won't take starter motor
current.

The bigger UPSes (1400 and 2200 non-rack versions at least) use the
larger SMH SY50 Series aka Anderson SB 50A connector, I don't know if
SMH bought Anderson or vice-versa, but the names seem to be
interchangeable now.

Huge wrote:

I have a SmartUPS 2200. It uses the smaller connectors.

Rackmounted version using the (8?) small batteries as shown in the
newegg image?

Both my SU2200's and my SU1400 (all non-rack) use the big connectors,
and NP18-12B batteries

On 07/08/2015 10:00 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2015-08-07, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Would have to have an easy to
use plug/socket capable of carrying the starter current.

That bit I *can* answer; Anderson Connectors.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140840389569

They're hermaphoditic (so the connnectors are all the same, you don't need
to buy a 'male & female'), polarised (so you can't connect them the wrong
way round) and can carry 50 Amps. Very widely used in motorsport (which is
where I came across them). I have them on my race car for jump starting.



Time for me to change websites after reading the Ebay listing as 'Pam
Anderson Connector' see ya'll in five minutes.

....Ray.

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On 7 Aug 2015 09:00:04 GMT, Huge wrote:

Would have to have an easy to use plug/socket capable of carrying
the
starter current.

That bit I *can* answer; Anderson Connectors.

Ah yes, the "spare" 2 kVA UPS has those to connect the battery pack
to the electronics.

Still trying to KISS though, as conditions maybe pretty bad when
wanting to use the genset. Getting the heating running with a real
blizzard(*) going on outside is a high priority. Anderson connector
are quite chuncky but the cables which are stiff at 15/20C are really
not going to be very flexible at 20+ degrees colder. A small strap or
bungee could replace the tiddly fiddly wing nuts and angle that hold
the battery onto it's tray.

(*) Above 30 mph sustained windspeed, "Near Gale - F7" with visibilty
less than 1/4 mile. Drifting and/or falling snow builds up pretty
rapidly out of the air flow. Out in a blizzard is not pleasant up
here, windchill is likely to be below -20C, the wind does snatch away
anything lightweight, the snow does hurt on impact and sting because
it'll still be well below freezing.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On 7 Aug 2015 09:00:04 GMT, Huge wrote:

Would have to have an easy to use plug/socket capable of carrying
the
starter current.

That bit I *can* answer; Anderson Connectors.

Ah yes, the "spare" 2 kVA UPS has those to connect the battery pack
to the electronics.

Still trying to KISS though, as conditions maybe pretty bad when
wanting to use the genset. Getting the heating running with a real
blizzard(*) going on outside is a high priority. Anderson connector
are quite chuncky but the cables which are stiff at 15/20C are really
not going to be very flexible at 20+ degrees colder. A small strap or
bungee could replace the tiddly fiddly wing nuts and angle that hold
the battery onto it's tray.

(*) Above 30 mph sustained windspeed, "Near Gale - F7" with visibilty
less than 1/4 mile. Drifting and/or falling snow builds up pretty
rapidly out of the air flow. Out in a blizzard is not pleasant up
here, windchill is likely to be below -20C, the wind does snatch away
anything lightweight, the snow does hurt on impact and sting because
it'll still be well below freezing.



Dontcha tink Dave that there come a time when living in one of the
highest and remotest places in the UK might loose its appeal and you
might be well advised to come down from that mountain to a lush green
valley;?....


--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Above 30 mph sustained windspeed, "Near Gale - F7" with visibilty
less than 1/4 mile. Drifting and/or falling snow builds up pretty
rapidly out of the air flow. Out in a blizzard is not pleasant up
here, windchill is likely to be below -20C, the wind does snatch away
anything lightweight, the snow does hurt on impact and sting because
it'll still be well below freezing.

Dontcha tink Dave that there come a time when living in one of the
highest and remotest places in the UK might loose its appeal and you
might be well advised to come down from that mountain to a lush green
valley;?....

And get flooded ...

In article , Andy
Burns scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Above 30 mph sustained windspeed, "Near Gale - F7" with visibilty
less than 1/4 mile. Drifting and/or falling snow builds up pretty
rapidly out of the air flow. Out in a blizzard is not pleasant up
here, windchill is likely to be below -20C, the wind does snatch away
anything lightweight, the snow does hurt on impact and sting because
it'll still be well below freezing.

Dontcha tink Dave that there come a time when living in one of the
highest and remotest places in the UK might loose its appeal and you
might be well advised to come down from that mountain to a lush green
valley;?....

And get flooded ...



Well alright, but \quite/ at the bottom of that lush green valley...

--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 9 Aug 2015 16:02:33 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Out in a blizzard is not pleasant up here, windchill is likely to
be
below -20C, the wind does snatch away anything lightweight, the
snow
does hurt on impact and sting because it'll still be well below
freezing.

Dontcha tink Dave that there come a time when living in one of the
highest and remotest places in the UK might loose its appeal and you
might be well advised to come down from that mountain to a lush green
valley;?....

I very much doubt it. My Will has instructions for cremation and
releasing my ashes to the wind across our in-bye. And if the
Parkinsons starts to get to the stage where I'm not functioning well
enough and fail to do a Cilla I have the option of doing an Oates.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 10 Aug 2015 08:34:28 GMT, Huge wrote:

I very much doubt it. My Will has instructions for cremation and
releasing my ashes to the wind across our in-bye.

Pity you won't be there to see all the people at your funeral brushing
themselves down, rubbing their eyes and coughing your remains up ...

The funeral will be at a crem somewhere, donno where the
nearest/nicest is but it'll be 20 to 30 miles away minimum. Seems
sensible to have the booze up nearer the crem than get everyone to
drive for an hour. Doesn't bother me, I won't be there.

--
Cheers
Dave.