OT PAT
 

HI

At work we have a Seaward PAT machine, the employee qualified to use
it has left and boss wants me to get the testing back in-house.

Our young cleric who looks after safety records and personnel training
records has volunteered to be sent on a course, he's quite bright but
woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics or maths at GCSE
Does he stand much chance of getting on board with electrical power
concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

I haven't much idea about electrical wiring and part P but do have a
rudimentary knowledge of electrickery from college 43 years ago.

AJH

OT PAT
 

OT PAT
 

In message , Andy
Burns writes
wrote:

he's quite bright but woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics
or maths at GCSE Does he stand much chance of getting on board with
electrical power concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

Can he press a button and operate a biro?

That's the easy bit.

He also needs to be able to spot the potential physical problems such as
damaged cable, cracked casings, incorrect fuse fitted in the plug etc.
Also to recognise whether it is a class 1 or 2 appliance. Yes I know
there is class 3 as well, but if he tries testing one of those he may
have real problems.

But in answer to your question, if he is "quite bright" then he will
have no problems managing the course.


--
Bill

OT PAT
 

On 28/07/15 17:18, wrote:
HI

At work we have a Seaward PAT machine, the employee qualified to use
it has left and boss wants me to get the testing back in-house.

Our young cleric who looks after safety records and personnel training
records has volunteered to be sent on a course, he's quite bright but
woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics or maths at GCSE
Does he stand much chance of getting on board with electrical power
concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

I haven't much idea about electrical wiring and part P but do have a
rudimentary knowledge of electrickery from college 43 years ago.

The C&G course (2377) is a two day affair -

http://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/2377-pat-testing

If he can manage Ohms law and is reasonably practical, he can do it very
easily.

If he is massively flummoxed by exams (computer multi choice) or
remembering basic procedures, he will find it hard.

The more he understands *why* the procedures are as they are taught, the
less rote remembering he will have to do and the better he will be as a
tester.

OT PAT
 

On 28/07/15 17:55, Bill wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
wrote:

he's quite bright but woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics
or maths at GCSE Does he stand much chance of getting on board with
electrical power concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

Can he press a button and operate a biro?

That's the easy bit.

He also needs to be able to spot the potential physical problems such as
damaged cable, cracked casings, incorrect fuse fitted in the plug etc.
Also to recognise whether it is a class 1 or 2 appliance. Yes I know
there is class 3 as well, but if he tries testing one of those he may
have real problems.

And Class 0

We had fun getting the bloke to explain that. He did though - after a
bit of mental rummaging.

Needless to say, if you found a Class 0 these days, you'd probably fail it.

OT PAT
 

A simple check-list procedure will get him into the process. Aim to
minimise individual decision making.

OT PAT
 

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:09:35 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 28/07/15 17:55, Bill wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
wrote:

he's quite bright but woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics
or maths at GCSE Does he stand much chance of getting on board with
electrical power concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

Can he press a button and operate a biro?

That's the easy bit.

He also needs to be able to spot the potential physical problems such as
damaged cable, cracked casings, incorrect fuse fitted in the plug etc.
Also to recognise whether it is a class 1 or 2 appliance. Yes I know
there is class 3 as well, but if he tries testing one of those he may
have real problems.

And Class 0

We had fun getting the bloke to explain that. He did though - after a
bit of mental rummaging.

Needless to say, if you found a Class 0 these days, you'd probably fail it.

Odd thing is that these classes are supposed to be expressed in Roman
numerals, and the Romans didn't have a symbol for zero.

Worse still, there is a Class 0I which is a curious mixture.
I think some old audio separates would fall into this class.

--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

OT PAT
 

I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention, but some of
the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage with a kind of hand
held device for this sort of thing. it leads them along a bit like going
around an art gallery.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
wrote:

he's quite bright but woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics
or maths at GCSE Does he stand much chance of getting on board with
electrical power concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

Can he press a button and operate a biro?

OT PAT
 

On 7/28/2015 6:09 PM, Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/15 17:55, Bill wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
wrote:

he's quite bright but woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics
or maths at GCSE Does he stand much chance of getting on board with
electrical power concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

Can he press a button and operate a biro?

That's the easy bit.

He also needs to be able to spot the potential physical problems such as
damaged cable, cracked casings, incorrect fuse fitted in the plug etc.
Also to recognise whether it is a class 1 or 2 appliance. Yes I know
there is class 3 as well, but if he tries testing one of those he may
have real problems.

And Class 0

We had fun getting the bloke to explain that. He did though - after a
bit of mental rummaging.

Needless to say, if you found a Class 0 these days, you'd probably fail it.

Older sets of Christmas lights are a good candidate for this...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

OT PAT
 

On 29/07/15 11:58, John Rumm wrote:
On 7/28/2015 6:09 PM, Tim Watts wrote:

Needless to say, if you found a Class 0 these days, you'd probably
fail it.

Older sets of Christmas lights are a good candidate for this...




Blue peter badge for you sir - that is indeed that answer the bloke
gave... Took him a while though. Evidently no-one has every bothered
asking him until our group turned up!

OT PAT
 

On Tuesday, 28 July 2015 19:35:02 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:09:35 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 28/07/15 17:55, Bill wrote:
In message , Andy
Burns writes
wrote:

he's quite bright but woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics
or maths at GCSE Does he stand much chance of getting on board with
electrical power concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

Can he press a button and operate a biro?

That's the easy bit.

He also needs to be able to spot the potential physical problems such as
damaged cable, cracked casings, incorrect fuse fitted in the plug etc.
Also to recognise whether it is a class 1 or 2 appliance. Yes I know
there is class 3 as well, but if he tries testing one of those he may
have real problems.

And Class 0

We had fun getting the bloke to explain that. He did though - after a
bit of mental rummaging.

Needless to say, if you found a Class 0 these days, you'd probably fail it.

Odd thing is that these classes are supposed to be expressed in Roman
numerals, and the Romans didn't have a symbol for zero.

Worse still, there is a Class 0I which is a curious mixture.
I think some old audio separates would fall into this class.

I always wonderd what 'class' equipment that had bare live bits would fall into. -1? 240?


NT

OT PAT
 

On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention, but some of
the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage with a kind of hand
held device for this sort of thing. it leads them along a bit like going
around an art gallery.
Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen. They failed two 24V 25W antex irons because they could see the earth lead at the end of the iron could be seen. Well they were obvious the extention lead was under the bench.
They also annoying put a sticker on quite a few of my plug-in PSU covering up the output voltage and current rating.

OT PAT
 

On 29/07/2015 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention, but some of
the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage with a kind of hand
held device for this sort of thing. it leads them along a bit like going
around an art gallery.
Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and then it kills or injures someone



A PAT test is like a car MoT. It only refers to the condition of the
appliance at the time of testing

Malcolm

OT PAT
 

On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

They
failed two 24V 25W antex irons because they could see the earth lead
at the end of the iron could be seen. Well they were obvious the
extention lead was under the bench. They also annoying put a sticker
on quite a few of my plug-in PSU covering up the output voltage and
current rating.

They do seem to like doing that...

OT PAT
 

On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:06:58 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made the mistake ? would be my point.

OT PAT
 

On 29/07/2015 16:40, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:06:58 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made the mistake ? would be my point.



I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date, the case is not
damaged and that nowhere aiong the mains cable can the coloured cores be
seen.' - imagine piece of boiler plate covering a*se.

As I said in a previous reply, the test is only valid at the point of
test, as a car MoT test does not guarantee the condition of the car once
it leaves the testing station as anything could change the condition of
the car (appliance) within minutes of the test

Malcolm

OT PAT
 

En el artículo , Andy
Burns escribió:

Can he press a button

I'm sure he can operate a game console.

and operate a biro?

Whew, that's asking a bit much, isn't it? You'll need to give him one
and see which way up he holds it.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

OT PAT
 

On 28/07/2015 18:08, Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/15 17:18, wrote:
HI

At work we have a Seaward PAT machine, the employee qualified to use
it has left and boss wants me to get the testing back in-house.

Our young cleric who looks after safety records and personnel training
records has volunteered to be sent on a course, he's quite bright but
woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics or maths at GCSE
Does he stand much chance of getting on board with electrical power
concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

I haven't much idea about electrical wiring and part P but do have a
rudimentary knowledge of electrickery from college 43 years ago.

The C&G course (2377) is a two day affair -

http://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/2377-pat-testing

If he can manage Ohms law and is reasonably practical, he can do it very
easily.

If he is massively flummoxed by exams (computer multi choice) or
remembering basic procedures, he will find it hard.

The more he understands *why* the procedures are as they are taught, the
less rote remembering he will have to do and the better he will be as a
tester.


The C&G course can be a bit OTT for training someone to be competent
which is all that is required.
There are other providers who run less academic courses and there are
also online base courses with assessments.

I did the the 2nd day of the C&G a few years ago and the online test.
Two of us who had prior knowledge wizzed through the exam in about
20mins including rechceking carefully and passed with 1 question wrong.
Many of the others struggled to finish in the 1 or 2? hours allowed.

OT PAT
 

On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 17:39:46 UTC+1, Malcolm Race wrote:
On 29/07/2015 16:40, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:06:58 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made the mistake ? would be my point.



I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date,

Tried that wouldn't work here, most of our users are students not employees so it's not their job to check such things. Also we don;t want all our students suddenly crawling under the benches or looking behind cabinets and servers trying to find a label on a 3 pin plug. What happens when there isn;t a lable on the plug ?


the case is not
damaged and that nowhere aiong the mains cable can the coloured cores be
seen.' - imagine piece of boiler plate covering a*se.

who's a*se is it covering ?


As I said in a previous reply, the test is only valid at the point of
test,

Yep I know.

as a car MoT test does not guarantee the condition of the car once
it leaves the testing station as anything could change the condition of
the car (appliance) within minutes of the test

Malcolm

Yep I know, which is why I was wondering what the point of the PAT test would be in such a case.

OT PAT
 

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:49:53 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo , Andy
Burns escribió:

Can he press a button

I'm sure he can operate a game console.

and operate a biro?

Whew, that's asking a bit much, isn't it? You'll need to give him one
and see which way up he holds it.

Stick it up your nose!



--
Regards, Paul Herber
http://www.sandrila.co.uk/

OT PAT
 

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an
accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on
it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could
then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what
should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could
write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made
the mistake ? would be my point.



I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date,

Tried that wouldn't work here, most of our users are students not
employees so it's not their job to check such things.

I would have thought that part of their familiarisation training would
have involved an H&S talk that includes checking their surroundings for
potential hazards.

As they state on all H&S courses, the person responsible for your safety
is YOU. Your employer has to provide a safe working environment, but
you also need to play your part too. Therefore it is the employees job
to check that their workplace is safe.


Also we don;t want all our students suddenly crawling under the benches
or looking behind cabinets and servers trying to find a label on a 3
pin plug. What happens when there isn;t a lable on the plug ?

Maybe the labels should be in a more prominent place on the equipment.
If there is no label they should ask for assistance from someone higher
up the food chain.

All of the above being in an ideal world of course :-)


--
Bill

OT PAT
 

In article ,
Bill wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an
accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on
it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could
then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what
should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could
write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made
the mistake ? would be my point.



I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date,

Tried that wouldn't work here, most of our users are students not
employees so it's not their job to check such things.

I would have thought that part of their familiarisation training would
have involved an H&S talk that includes checking their surroundings for
potential hazards.

As they state on all H&S courses, the person responsible for your safety
is YOU. Your employer has to provide a safe working environment, but
you also need to play your part too. Therefore it is the employees job
to check that their workplace is safe.

my former employer put it: "You are your own Health & Safety Officer".

OT PAT
 

On Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:22:26 UTC+1, Bill wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an
accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on
it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could
then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what
should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could
write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made
the mistake ? would be my point.



I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date,

Tried that wouldn't work here, most of our users are students not
employees so it's not their job to check such things.

I would have thought that part of their familiarisation training would
have involved an H&S talk

So far so good.
But when you have a studetn that can't work out how to connect a PP3 battery to the battery clip, what then ?
All we can ask the studetns to do is to report anything they think might be wrong or dangerous in these cases.



that includes checking their surroundings for
potential hazards.

But how far do you go. When you use a computer to check email do you crawl under a bench find the extention lead that your monitor is connected to and back track it to the 13amp plug and read the label on it for a date ?

When I go into sainsburys I don't expect to have to check the plugs on their fridges before I open the door.

As they state on all H&S courses, the person responsible for your safety
is YOU. Your employer has to provide a safe working environment, but
you also need to play your part too. Therefore it is the employees job
to check that their workplace is safe.

Define safe ?
Do you think that an extention lead where the earth wire is visible ?
The PAT testers passed it. The next day or so I failed it. I took a photo of it send it to the safety person who employers the PAT tester and nothing happened he just said well throw it then, so I cut the plug off removed the fuse and the cable and but it back into stock.


Also we don;t want all our students suddenly crawling under the benches
or looking behind cabinets and servers trying to find a label on a 3
pin plug. What happens when there isn;t a lable on the plug ?

Maybe the labels should be in a more prominent place on the equipment.

The equipment and the plug are two seprate items most of the time.


If there is no label they should ask for assistance from someone higher
up the food chain.

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is new this year so doesn;t need testing but how will they know that the 11 new soldering irons I put out 4 weeks ago with their IEC leads without a label on the plug are OK. What if they take one of those leads to use on their labtop as they left their lead at home, or they use the lead on a PSU or scope ?


All of the above being in an ideal world of course :-)

or an idea lab with ideal administrators, under idea managers, under an ideal government :)

Nah I'll stick to my method.




--
Bill

OT PAT
 

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:

[Snip]

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is new
this year so doesn;t need testing


I've bought new equipment which has failed a basic " Is there continuity
between plug and case" test.

--
Please note new email address:

OT PAT
 

On Friday, 31 July 2015 11:55:48 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:

[Snip]

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is new
this year so doesn;t need testing


I've bought new equipment which has failed a basic " Is there continuity
between plug and case" test.

One reason we don;t buy from ebay, what was this test that needed continuity between teh plug and the case ?

The last PSU I 'repaired' because of this issue[1] was brought in the late 1980s.



Plug to chasis had to be less than 0.5R IIRC so I cut the mains lead in half and that sorted it.

OT PAT
 

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 31 July 2015 11:55:48 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:

[Snip]

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is
new this year so doesn;t need testing


I've bought new equipment which has failed a basic " Is there
continuity between plug and case" test.

One reason we don;t buy from ebay, what was this test that needed
continuity between the plug and the case ?

A PAT (test) on a mains operated theatre light. I bought 4, 3 were fine,
one was not. Paint on the case had not been removed where the earth
terminal was fitted. Interestingly, the mains cable was different from that
on the others - different factory perhaps?

--
Please note new email address:

OT PAT
 

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:26:58 +0100, Robert
wrote:

I did the the 2nd day of the C&G a few years ago and the online test.

Is there any link to mock questions I can look at?

AJH

OT PAT
 

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On 28/07/15 17:18, wrote:
HI

At work we have a Seaward PAT machine, the employee qualified to use
it has left and boss wants me to get the testing back in-house.

Our young cleric who looks after safety records and personnel training
records has volunteered to be sent on a course, he's quite bright but
woefully lacking in qualifications, no physics or maths at GCSE
Does he stand much chance of getting on board with electrical power
concepts enough to be able to manage the course?

I haven't much idea about electrical wiring and part P but do have a
rudimentary knowledge of electrickery from college 43 years ago.

The C&G course (2377) is a two day affair -

http://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/2377-pat-testing

If he can manage Ohms law and is reasonably practical, he can do it very
easily.

If he is massively flummoxed by exams (computer multi choice) or
remembering basic procedures, he will find it hard.

The more he understands *why* the procedures are as they are taught, the
less rote remembering he will have to do and the better he will be as a
tester.

Yes, my comment to people who ask me is that you need to know how
to wire a plug, and you need to understand ohms law and the difference
between megohms and milliohms. You most certainly do not need to be
an electrician - it is intended to be doable by one of the more technically
biased staff in most offices.

Note that the proper City and Guilds pass is the one recognised by HSE
as showing competence. There are many other courses, in particular by
PAT test equipment manufacturers which teach you how to use their tester
and claim that makes you competent, but that is often not the case.
Actually, using the PAT tester is the least important part of PAT
testing - you do most of it without using the tester - the visual
inspection part is the most important and finds most of the faults.

Also note that someone with legal responsibility for H&S within the
company should also go on the course, for the responsibilities and
record keeping part of the course. There is a separate certificate for
this from the technical side (although everyone usually does both parts).

Find a course which includes practical work, and take your own PAT
tester with you, as the trainer will probably show you how to use it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

OT PAT
 

whisky-dave wrote
Brian-Gaff wrote

I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads them
along a bit like going around an art gallery.

Isn;t it realy just a cover up,

Nope.

what happens if an item is passed and then it kills or injures someone ?

It has failed since the test, stupid.

As I've said we have PAT testing done here by an outside company.

More fool you.

They've passed an extention lead I'd fail because the outer sheath didn't
go as
far as the cord grip and the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could
be seen.

Then you clearly need to change to a different operation that has even half
a clue.

They failed two 24V 25W antex irons because they could
see the earth lead at the end of the iron could be seen.

Ditto.

Well they were obvious the extention lead was under the bench.
They also annoying put a sticker on quite a few of my plug-in
PSU covering up the output voltage and current rating.

Ditto.

OT PAT
 

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:06:58 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

That's what I thought, but so what if someone
did die or have an accident from using it. It's been
electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on
it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident.

Depends on what the cause of the death or accident was.

Clearly anything can fail after the test has been done and
it may well be possible to see if the problem would have
been obvious when the test was done or happened later,
most obviously with a cut to the cable etc.

We could then employ a few admin people to email others
to tell them what should have been done and how to do it
properly and then we could write a report on how we can
learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made the mistake ?
would be my point.

Makes no difference whether the test is done internally or externally with
that.

OT PAT
 

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 17:39:46 UTC+1, Malcolm Race wrote:
On 29/07/2015 16:40, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:06:58 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and
pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

That's what I thought, but so what if someone did die or have an
accident from using it.
It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on it,
so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could then
employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what should have
been done and how to do it properly and then we could write a report on
how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made the mistake ? would
be my point.



I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date,

Tried that wouldn't work here, most of our users are students not
employees so it's not their job to check such things. Also we don;t want
all our students suddenly crawling under the benches or looking behind
cabinets and servers trying to find a label on a 3 pin plug. What happens
when there isn;t a lable on the plug ?


the case is not
damaged and that nowhere aiong the mains cable can the coloured cores be
seen.' - imagine piece of boiler plate covering a*se.

who's a*se is it covering ?


As I said in a previous reply, the test is only valid at the point of
test,

Yep I know.

as a car MoT test does not guarantee the condition of the car once
it leaves the testing station as anything could change the condition of
the car (appliance) within minutes of the test

Malcolm

Yep I know, which is why I was wondering what the point of the PAT test
would be in such a case.

It finds some defective stuff that the most stupid users wouldn't notice was
a problem.

Not that I think PAT testing makes any sense at all.

OT PAT
 

whisky-dave wrote
Bill wrote
whisky-dave wrote

That's what I thought, but so what if someone
did die or have an accident from using it.

It's been electrically tested and was 'fine' a pass sticker was on
it, so who'd be blamed or would it just be an accident. We could
then employ a few admin people to email others to tell them what
should have been done and how to do it properly and then we could
write a report on how we can learn from 'our' mistakes, but who made
the mistake ? would be my point.

I would suggest that your company has in place a policy which states
(approximately) that 'Before any piece of electrical equipment is used
the user checks that the test sticker is in date,

Tried that wouldn't work here, most of our users are students
not employees so it's not their job to check such things.

I would have thought that part of their familiarisation
training would have involved an H&S talk

So far so good.
But when you have a studetn that can't work out how
to connect a PP3 battery to the battery clip, what then ?

You hang yourself thoughtfully where some
little kid wont find you before an adult does.

All we can ask the studetns to do is to report anything
they think might be wrong or dangerous in these cases.

that includes checking their surroundings for potential hazards.

But how far do you go. When you use a computer to check
email do you crawl under a bench find the extention lead
that your monitor is connected to and back track it to the
13amp plug and read the label on it for a date ?

Nar, only do that with a house you have never visited before.

When I go into sainsburys I don't expect to have to check
the plugs on their fridges before I open the door.

More fool you.

As they state on all H&S courses, the person responsible for
your safety is YOU. Your employer has to provide a safe working
environment, but you also need to play your part too. Therefore
it is the employees job to check that their workplace is safe.

Define safe ?

Doesn't kill or injure anyone, even when they are a little
kid that puts anything portable into their mouths etc.

Do you think that an extention lead where the earth wire is visible ?
The PAT testers passed it. The next day or so I failed it. I took a photo
of it send it to the safety person who employers the PAT tester and
nothing happened he just said well throw it then, so I cut the plug
off removed the fuse and the cable and but it back into stock.

Also we don;t want all our students suddenly crawling under the benches
or looking behind cabinets and servers trying to find a label on a 3
pin plug. What happens when there isn;t a lable on the plug ?

Maybe the labels should be in a more prominent place on the equipment.

The equipment and the plug are two seprate items most of the time.

If there is no label they should ask for assistance
from someone higher up the food chain.

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is new
this year so doesn;t need testing but how will they know that the 11 new
soldering irons I put out 4 weeks ago with their IEC leads without a label
on the plug are OK. What if they take one of those leads to use on their
labtop as they left their lead at home, or they use the lead on a PSU or
scope ?

All of the above being in an ideal world of course :-)

or an idea lab with ideal administrators, under
idea managers, under an ideal government :)

Nah I'll stick to my method.

And get the bums rush when someone ends up dead.

OT PAT
 

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On 29/07/15 13:55, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 09:10:58 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I was just thinking that. I do not know the machine you mention,
but some of the dodgy electricians at the council seem to manage
with a kind of hand held device for this sort of thing. it leads
them along a bit like going around an art gallery. Brian

Isn;t it realy just a cover up, what happens if an item is passed and
then it kills or injures someone ? As I've said we have PAT testing
done here by an outside company. They've passed an extention lead I'd
fail because the outer sheath didn't go as far as the cord grip and
the individual live earth adn nuteral wires could be seen.

Then they are incompetent - that is a definite fail (or repair and pass
if the job was being done by an in house and helpful chap!)

You can subcontract things like PAT testing, but the directors of
your company are still responsible for ensuring it is done competently.
That would mean ensuring the people actually doing the testing are
competent, which they might do by requiring them to bring in originals
of their C&G 2377 certificates, and making copies to keep on file, so
you can later show the HSE that you took reasonable precautions in the
duty of care required of the directors. This would be a defence if it
came to something like a corproate manslaughter charge (or more likely
prevent any such charge being brought in the first place).

They
failed two 24V 25W antex irons because they could see the earth lead
at the end of the iron could be seen. Well they were obvious the
extention lead was under the bench. They also annoying put a sticker
on quite a few of my plug-in PSU covering up the output voltage and
current rating.

They do seem to like doing that...

You should draw this to the attention on your directors. Someone in
your company would be well advised to go on the C&G Competent Management
of Electrical Equipment Maintenance course, which is the non-technical
half of 2377, even if you aren't doing the testing yourself. It covers
the legal requirements, and evidence you should keep.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

OT PAT
 

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

Not that I think PAT testing makes any sense at all.

TBH in most cases a load of ********.



--
Adam

OT PAT
 

On 01/08/15 14:57, ARW wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

Not that I think PAT testing makes any sense at all.

TBH in most cases a load of ********.


Having done the course - I agree.

In 99% of standard office environments, the only useful test you can do
is an earth continuity on Class I equipment. You could do that with 50%
effectiveness with an ohmmeter. (The loss of the other 50% is you won't
be pulsing a decent current through it - but it would show up broken
earths, painted earth clamp points etc).

Class II is pretty much all inspection and you could write the script
for that on 1/2 side of A4. That's not to say it is not useful - but it
would be better if each member of staff was show how to appraise their
own stuff and report anything that looked dodgy.

OT PAT
 

whisky-dave wrote:

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is
new this year so doesn;t need testing

Or someone's peeled the sticker off while they were bored ...

OT PAT
 

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On 01/08/15 14:57, ARW wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

Not that I think PAT testing makes any sense at all.

TBH in most cases a load of ********.


Having done the course - I agree.

In 99% of standard office environments, the only useful test you can do
is an earth continuity on Class I equipment. You could do that with 50%
effectiveness with an ohmmeter. (The loss of the other 50% is you won't
be pulsing a decent current through it - but it would show up broken
earths, painted earth clamp points etc).

Class II is pretty much all inspection and you could write the script
for that on 1/2 side of A4. That's not to say it is not useful - but it
would be better if each member of staff was show how to appraise their
own stuff and report anything that looked dodgy.

IT equipment so rarely fails that you could probably justify never
testing it if it comes from a reliable source and you have a formal
replacement program (so you don't end up with anything more than 3-4
years old). You will need to evidence (in the form of record keeping)
to justify such a decision. Laptop power supplies are one exception
which often get damaged due to frequently moving them around*.

The things that fail in offices are things like the kettle and coffee
machines (particularly those not designed for office duty cycle), old
fan heater someone brought in from home when it should have been chucked
out (and other items brough in from home), extension leads, washroom hand
driers, vacuum cleaners, etc. Office duty kettles are expensive (and
still need testing, but not as often). Often the cheapest option for a
kettle is to get a cheap one (which would probably need PAT testing
every 3 months at office duty cycle use), but to replace it at that
frequency rather than bothering to test it.

*One place where I worked where many people took their laptops home each
night, it was cheaper for us to get two PSUs with each laptop. One stayed
in the office and the other at home, and then they didn't get damaged and
we could justify not testing them during the lifetime of the laptop.
Before that, laptop PSU damage was so frequent, we were bordering on
having to PAT test them more frequently than annually.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

OT PAT
 

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

IT equipment so rarely fails that you could probably justify never
testing it if it comes from a reliable source and you have a formal
replacement program (so you don't end up with anything more than 3-4
years old). You will need to evidence (in the form of record keeping)
to justify such a decision. Laptop power supplies are one exception
which often get damaged due to frequently moving them around*.

The things that fail in offices are things like the kettle and coffee
machines (particularly those not designed for office duty cycle), old
fan heater someone brought in from home when it should have been chucked
out (and other items brough in from home), extension leads, washroom hand
driers, vacuum cleaners, etc. Office duty kettles are expensive (and
still need testing, but not as often). Often the cheapest option for a
kettle is to get a cheap one (which would probably need PAT testing
every 3 months at office duty cycle use), but to replace it at that
frequency rather than bothering to test it.

*One place where I worked where many people took their laptops home each
night, it was cheaper for us to get two PSUs with each laptop. One stayed
in the office and the other at home, and then they didn't get damaged and
we could justify not testing them during the lifetime of the laptop.
Before that, laptop PSU damage was so frequent, we were bordering on
having to PAT test them more frequently than annually.


As always - a voice of reason.

Of course the people doing the PAT testing spend a lot of time chasing and
making work. My brother who is a self employed mechanic and works on his own
in his own garage gets at least one sales phone calling a week saying that
it is a requirement to have his appliances tested.

--
Adam

OT PAT
 

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 31 July 2015 11:55:48 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:

[Snip]

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is new
this year so doesn;t need testing


I've bought new equipment which has failed a basic " Is there continuity
between plug and case" test.

One reason we don;t buy from ebay, what was this test that needed
continuity between teh plug and the case ?

The last PSU I 'repaired' because of this issue[1] was brought in the
late 1980s.



Plug to chasis had to be less than 0.5R IIRC so I cut the mains lead
in half and that sorted it.



I'm just back from a few days away, hence the late comments.

I bought some brand new kit, metal cased with an internal transformer
and hardwired grommeted mains cable.. The externally replaceable mains
fuse was in the neutral lead. When I complained to the importer, a well
known amateur radio supplier, their comment was, "well it will still
blow won't it?" I did get a panicky phone call from the MD shortly
afterwards though. They had checked the rest of the stock and found it
all to be the same.

So even new kit can be faulty.
--
Bill

OT PAT
 

In article , Bill
wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 31 July 2015 11:55:48 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:

[Snip]

in my lab if there's no label on the plug it means the equipment is
new this year so doesn;t need testing


I've bought new equipment which has failed a basic " Is there
continuity between plug and case" test.

One reason we don;t buy from ebay, what was this test that needed
continuity between teh plug and the case ?

This was not from Ebay, but from a respected trader.



The last PSU I 'repaired' because of this issue[1] was brought in the
late 1980s.



Plug to chasis had to be less than 0.5R IIRC so I cut the mains lead
in half and that sorted it.



I'm just back from a few days away, hence the late comments.

I bought some brand new kit, metal cased with an internal transformer
and hardwired grommeted mains cable.. The externally replaceable mains
fuse was in the neutral lead. When I complained to the importer, a well
known amateur radio supplier, their comment was, "well it will still
blow won't it?" I did get a panicky phone call from the MD shortly
afterwards though. They had checked the rest of the stock and found it
all to be the same.

So even new kit can be faulty.

--
Please note new email address: