In article , Clive
George scribeth thus
On 19/07/2015 19:58, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Yup. Hence analogue time pips are ahead of their digital counterparts.

ITWYM is digital is behind analogue.

For the benefit of the leftie thicko let me explain that analogue ahead
of digital means the same as digital behind analogue.

For something like a time signal, no it doesn't.




The problem these days in Broadcast is that theres precious little
that's analogue all the way. The BBC use a lot of digital distribution
now gone are the days of analogue landlines....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , says...

Mobile fones do delay the signals but TV is worse more coding and
decoding etc . Its modern digital tech. The delays on FM compared to DAB
are around 20 seconds;!..


Anyone listening to a Test Match on a combination of Long Wave, DAB and
via Internet will be familiar with the differing delays involved.


--
Sam

In article ,
says...

On 18/07/2015 11:35, David Lang wrote:
It seems to be necessary on news programs to have someone at the scene
of the news for no apparent reason.

T'other night it was "Now over to Fred Bloggs at Hove Crown Court". As
it was 6:45 the court was closed so there was no point in Fred being there.



Not to mention the countless BBC reporters hanging around in Athens.

I suppose Fred Bloggs had spent the afternoon in and around the court
gathering facts and gossip which, after translation into journalese, he
could then use in his report.

--
Sam

In article ,
says...

I find it interesting that whilst satellite delays used to be obvious
when studio presenters interviewed live reporters from the States, now
there is usually (though not always) no obvious delay. I assume that
this is because these transmissions now often come by fibre. Or is there
now some cleverness which delays the local stuff just enough to
compensate for the round trip to the geostationary satellites?


Or because the interview isn't (quite) live & the delays have been
edited out.
I bet it's possible to automate most of that process so it can be done
very quickly.


--
Sam

David Lang wrote:
It seems to be necessary on news programs to have someone at the scene
of the news for no apparent reason.

T'other night it was "Now over to Fred Bloggs at Hove Crown Court". As
it was 6:45 the court was closed so there was no point in Fred being there.

However, why is there such a long delay between the studio presenter
saying "Whats happening" and Fred replying?

With modern communication I can't see why there should be any delay at all.

There was a great series called Broken News that took the micturition
out of newscasting pretty nicely. Plenty of clips on youtube, if
anyone's interested.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ry=broken+news

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:30:17 +0100, Reentrant wrote:

On 18/07/2015 13:31, ARW wrote:


How often do you phone someone that is in the same room as you?


Every time my wife can't find her phone.

Yes, but you're going to hang up before she gets a chance to
accidentally answer it on purpose, aren't you? :-)

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 19/07/2015 19:58, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Yup. Hence analogue time pips are ahead of their digital counterparts.

ITWYM is digital is behind analogue.

For the benefit of the leftie thicko let me explain that analogue ahead
of digital means the same as digital behind analogue.

For something like a time signal, no it doesn't.

Far too subtle for the likes of bert to understand. He reads the Mail, you
know.

--
*It's this dirty because I washed it with your wife's knickers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 22:01:49 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:

In article , says...

Mobile fones do delay the signals but TV is worse more coding and
decoding etc . Its modern digital tech. The delays on FM compared to
DAB are around 20 seconds;!..


Anyone listening to a Test Match on a combination of Long Wave, DAB and
via Internet will be familiar with the differing delays involved.

That seems to me to lack the all important phrase, "all too" in there.:-)


--
Johnny B Good

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:10:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Graham. wrote:
There is more delay between your loudspeaker and ear when listening to
pips than over an entire analogue chain. That isn't instantaneous, but
is near enough in practice.

It used to be said that the GTS emanating from Droitwich is accurate
when heard on a receiver 100 miles away. As luck would have it I live
precisely that distance away as the RF flies.

The analogue signal proceeds along the cable etc at not far short of the
speed of light. So a 100 miles here or there isn't going to make much
difference. ;-)

Typically, over unloaded lines, about 20 to 30 percent slower, afaicr.

ISTR a propagation delay time of 70ms being mentioned in this context
(BICBW). Since sound waves in air travel at about 330m/s or 1100 feet/s
you'd need to be about 64 feet away from the speakers to double up on
this delay. A more typical 10 foot separation only adds another 9ms delay
to the analogue broadcast propagation delay, whatever that might actually
be.

A quick 'n dirty calculation (1 foot per nanosecond light speed in air)
for a 100 mile cable route with 70% velocity factor suggests my initial
70ms is off by a good two orders of magnitude. I got a delay value of
0.7392ms (which excludes the Tx to Rx path delay).

--
Johnny B Good

On 19/07/2015 22:25, Sam Plusnet wrote:

Or because the interview isn't (quite) live & the delays have been
edited out.
I bet it's possible to automate most of that process so it can be done
very quickly.

ISTR a programme on the radio a while ago describing a more low tech
approach where one of their correspondents in America arranged for the
presenter in the UK studio to include a precise number seconds of
"waffle" at the end of each question. He would then start his answer at
the end of the question so that his reply appeared to arrive immediately
the other person stopped talking,

--
Mike Clarke

Mike Clarke wrote:

ISTR a programme on the radio a while ago describing a more low tech
approach where one of their correspondents in America arranged for the
presenter in the UK studio to include a precise number seconds of
"waffle" at the end of each question. He would then start his answer at
the end of the question so that his reply appeared to arrive immediately
the other person stopped talking,

Almost a Two Ronnies sketch. ;-)

A recent podcast of IIRC Inside Science included mention of what
they called a "simrec". They had interviewed someone in the US
over a poor quality phone line. The US end was recorded on a
mobile phone, and the resultant MP4 file emailed to the programme
makers, who edited it in for broadcast.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 18/07/2015 22:25, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Andy
Burns scribeth thus
David Lang wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

The speed of light hasn't increased lately and delays for encoding and
buffering have ...

But it doesn't seem to affect mobile phones etc?

Mobile phone calls do have small buffering/encoding delays, more
noticeable if you call someone in the same room, but signal tends to
only travel tens or hundreds of miles, signals between studio and
presenter outside the courthouse can travel tens of thousands of miles...

Going up to a satellite and back plus the various encoding overheads.

Mobile fones do delay the signals but TV is worse more coding and
decoding etc . Its modern digital tech. The delays on FM compared to DAB
are around 20 seconds;!..

The DAB delay is typically 1-2 seconds although it is chipset dependent
so if you have more than one DAB radio on you get flanging effects where
you can hear both at once. The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

BTW Did anyone else hear the digital radio sycophants on Today this
morning claiming that we were all ready for digital switchoff!

They seem to live in a strange alternative universe where battery life
in a digital radio is comparable to that in an FM radio.

Roberts claim 120h in their DAB/FM models with 6D cells. A basic
FM/MW/LW transistor radio will do twice that with a pair of AA cells.

I suspect they compared digital tuner only models or something.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article , Martin Brown |||newspam|||
@nezumi.demon.co.uk scribeth thus
On 18/07/2015 22:25, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Andy
Burns scribeth thus
David Lang wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

The speed of light hasn't increased lately and delays for encoding and
buffering have ...

But it doesn't seem to affect mobile phones etc?

Mobile phone calls do have small buffering/encoding delays, more
noticeable if you call someone in the same room, but signal tends to
only travel tens or hundreds of miles, signals between studio and
presenter outside the courthouse can travel tens of thousands of miles...

Going up to a satellite and back plus the various encoding overheads.

Mobile fones do delay the signals but TV is worse more coding and
decoding etc . Its modern digital tech. The delays on FM compared to DAB
are around 20 seconds;!..

The DAB delay is typically 1-2 seconds although it is chipset dependent
so if you have more than one DAB radio on you get flanging effects where
you can hear both at once. The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

The delay I alluded to was the time we altered some processor settings
in the studio racks room till it came up on the monitoring radio!....


BTW Did anyone else hear the digital radio sycophants on Today this
morning claiming that we were all ready for digital switchoff!


Yes there always prophetising on the coming of the digital messiah;!...

They seem to live in a strange alternative universe where battery life
in a digital radio is comparable to that in an FM radio.

;!(..

Roberts claim 120h in their DAB/FM models with 6D cells. A basic
FM/MW/LW transistor radio will do twice that with a pair of AA cells.

I suspect they compared digital tuner only models or something.

They made it up more like to suit their message..
--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some point
in the day.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/07/2015 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

Astronomy for instance. Occulation timing aims to be better than 0.1s if
done by humans or 20ms by CCD is used to study the edge of the moon.

http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/iotandx.htm

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some point
in the day.

That is why quartz clocks and sometimes ovened crystals are used where
real precision and stability is needed.

The low frequency long baseline interferometry group went as far as
discipling a local rubidium standard from MSF Rubgy in the early 1980s.
They could detect dew on the ground at Rubgy since the 60kHz pips were
observed to be systematically late in the early morning.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article , Martin Brown |||newspam|||
@nezumi.demon.co.uk scribeth thus
On 20/07/2015 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

Astronomy for instance. Occulation timing aims to be better than 0.1s if
done by humans or 20ms by CCD is used to study the edge of the moon.

http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/iotandx.htm

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some point
in the day.

That is why quartz clocks and sometimes ovened crystals are used where
real precision and stability is needed.

The low frequency long baseline interferometry group went as far as
discipling a local rubidium standard from MSF Rubgy in the early 1980s.
They could detect dew on the ground at Rubgy since the 60kHz pips were
observed to be systematically late in the early morning.

Are you saying that the morning dew delayed the radio wave
proprogation?...

Which I suppose it might at LF?...


--
Tony Sayer

On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:15:24 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds late which makes them
pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some
point in the day.

Yes, but not compared to other mains synced clocks. :-)

Istr, that such mains synced clocks could vary from real time by as much
as give or take a minute (or even more) although they tended to be within
a second of real time each and every midnight for years at a time,
barring any mains outages of course.

--
Johnny B Good

On 20/07/15 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some point
in the day.

If you wanted precision surely you could use a GPS signal?

On 20/07/2015 22:06, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Martin Brown |||newspam|||
@nezumi.demon.co.uk scribeth thus

The low frequency long baseline interferometry group went as far as
discipling a local rubidium standard from MSF Rubgy in the early 1980s.
They could detect dew on the ground at Rubgy since the 60kHz pips were
observed to be systematically late in the early morning.

Are you saying that the morning dew delayed the radio wave
proprogation?...

I can't remember the details now (~1980's). I think it might have been
that the damp ground presented a more effective ground plane as well.

Which I suppose it might at LF?...

I slightly misremembered in that they used Loran-C 100kHz as well.

If you are interested a description of the original kit although not the
systematic error I referred to above is online at :

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c... iletype=.pdf


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/07/2015 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

Astronomy for instance. Occulation timing aims to be better than 0.1s if
done by humans or 20ms by CCD is used to study the edge of the moon.

And you use the GTS from DAB for this?

http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/iotandx.htm

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some
point in the day.

That is why quartz clocks and sometimes ovened crystals are used where
real precision and stability is needed.

Domestically, most would simply use a radio controlled clock these days.
Which you never need to alter.

The low frequency long baseline interferometry group went as far as
discipling a local rubidium standard from MSF Rubgy in the early 1980s.
They could detect dew on the ground at Rubgy since the 60kHz pips were
observed to be systematically late in the early morning.

--
*We never really grow*up, we only learn how to act in public.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
DJC wrote:
On 20/07/15 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some
point in the day.

If you wanted precision surely you could use a GPS signal?

Plenty of ways of getting an adequately accurate domestic clock other than
relying on the GTS from the radio to set one, I'd say.

And if you did want to, you can get R4 LW in most of the country - DAB has
far more limited coverage.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
DJC wrote:
On 20/07/15 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some
point in the day.

If you wanted precision surely you could use a GPS signal?

Plenty of ways of getting an adequately accurate domestic clock other than
relying on the GTS from the radio to set one, I'd say.

And if you did want to, you can get R4 LW in most of the country - DAB has
far more limited coverage.

And you could get real radical and use the mobile phone system or the net.

On 21/07/2015 11:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
DJC wrote:
On 20/07/15 18:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

Wonder what you're doing where 2 seconds is critical?

A mains locked clock is likely to be more than 2 seconds out at some
point in the day.

If you wanted precision surely you could use a GPS signal?

These days yes although getting the time signal out of consumer kit
isn't so easy. You can buy expensive dedicated receivers for the job.

Plenty of ways of getting an adequately accurate domestic clock other than
relying on the GTS from the radio to set one, I'd say.

And if you did want to, you can get R4 LW in most of the country - DAB has
far more limited coverage.

DAB coverage is lousy outside of major cities.

Where I live in North Yorkshire the DAB signal quickly degrades in a
rainstorm to burbling mud and that is with a dedicated dipole aerial. On
a whip aerial it barely decodes at all. R4 sounds like it is being read
by the subterraneans off Stingray (or a bad ventriloquist who hasn't
mastered drinking a glass of water and talking at the same time).

Fairly often the decoder crashes completely and emits silence. I have
given up on DAB as the broadcast quality was never very good and has got
worse. Internet Radio3 320kbps or off satellite leaves it for dust.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:56:30 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:


DAB coverage is lousy outside of major cities.

Where I live in North Yorkshire the DAB signal quickly degrades in a
rainstorm to burbling mud and that is with a dedicated dipole aerial. On
a whip aerial it barely decodes at all. R4 sounds like it is being read
by the subterraneans off Stingray
Weren't they called the aquaphibians? Remember them because in the
style of 10 year olds we nicknamed a local old fella the aquaphibian
because he looked a bit like one, though judging by his hygiene he
never went near water.

G.Harman

On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:04:54 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 18/07/2015 22:25, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Andy
Burns scribeth thus
David Lang wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

The speed of light hasn't increased lately and delays for encoding and
buffering have ...

But it doesn't seem to affect mobile phones etc?

Mobile phone calls do have small buffering/encoding delays, more
noticeable if you call someone in the same room, but signal tends to
only travel tens or hundreds of miles, signals between studio and
presenter outside the courthouse can travel tens of thousands of miles...

Going up to a satellite and back plus the various encoding overheads.

Mobile fones do delay the signals but TV is worse more coding and
decoding etc . Its modern digital tech. The delays on FM compared to DAB
are around 20 seconds;!..

The DAB delay is typically 1-2 seconds although it is chipset dependent
so if you have more than one DAB radio on you get flanging effects where
you can hear both at once. The time pips on DAB are a couple of seconds
late which makes them pointless and highly misleading.

BTW Did anyone else hear the digital radio sycophants on Today this
morning claiming that we were all ready for digital switchoff!

ITYM analogue switchoff, or digital switchover

--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:32:54 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:56:30 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:


DAB coverage is lousy outside of major cities.

Where I live in North Yorkshire the DAB signal quickly degrades in a
rainstorm to burbling mud and that is with a dedicated dipole aerial. On
a whip aerial it barely decodes at all. R4 sounds like it is being read
by the subterraneans off Stingray
Weren't they called the aquaphibians? Remember them because in the
style of 10 year olds we nicknamed a local old fella the aquaphibian
because he looked a bit like one, though judging by his hygiene he
never went near water.

G.Harman

Their clocks used "Marine minutes". I could never fathom them out.



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

In article , Graham.
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:32:54 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:56:30 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:


DAB coverage is lousy outside of major cities.

Where I live in North Yorkshire the DAB signal quickly degrades in a
rainstorm to burbling mud and that is with a dedicated dipole aerial.
On a whip aerial it barely decodes at all. R4 sounds like it is being
read by the subterraneans off Stingray
Weren't they called the aquaphibians? Remember them because in the
style of 10 year olds we nicknamed a local old fella the aquaphibian
because he looked a bit like one, though judging by his hygiene he never
went near water.

G.Harman

Their clocks used "Marine minutes". I could never fathom them out.


could you knot?

On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:32:54 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:56:30 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:


DAB coverage is lousy outside of major cities.

Where I live in North Yorkshire the DAB signal quickly degrades in a
rainstorm to burbling mud and that is with a dedicated dipole aerial. On
a whip aerial it barely decodes at all. R4 sounds like it is being read
by the subterraneans off Stingray

Weren't they called the aquaphibians? Remember them because in the
style of 10 year olds we nicknamed a local old fella the aquaphibian
because he looked a bit like one, though judging by his hygiene he
never went near water.

G.Harman

You are right. I particularly like the subtitles on this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzpkJvwvWDA

"Teach yourself aquaphibian" now available on DAB radio!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown