Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

Perhaps a 20Kg weight would be a reasonable starting point.


Thanks

Phil

On 23/06/15 15:58, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

gearing very little - 5-20% depending in type.

Electrical? About 80% efficient without getting intensely expensive or
complex.


Perhaps a 20Kg weight would be a reasonable starting point.


Wont net you much energy, but expect 50% eff no sweat going up to maybe
80% if refined



Thanks

Phil


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 23/06/2015 15:58, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

60-80% lost in the mechanical conversion in all probability.

But m.g.h for a 20kg weight would only be ~ 20.10.5 = 1000J

Enough to light a 100W lamp for 10s.
(with 100% efficiency in practice you will be lucky to get 2-3s)

Perhaps a 20Kg weight would be a reasonable starting point.


Thanks

Phil

More like a 1T rotor at 1000rpm if you are serious about a mechanical
UPS - that really will store a decent amount of kinetic energy. Used at
some remote telescopes to stow them in the event of storm mains failure.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
thescullster wrote:
Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Are you going to winch it up with an electric motor? ;-)

The amount of electricity a human can generate is pretty meaningless.

Think how hard work it is to drill a hole with a hand drill - and how easy
it is with a cordless drill. You get the idea? So the amount of work
needed to winch a weight up to the top of the house then use that to
generate electricity might light a small efficient bulb for a while. But
it's not going to produce enough to do anything useful.

--
*A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it uses up a thousand times more memory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Martin Brown wrote:

On 23/06/2015 15:58, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

60-80% lost in the mechanical conversion in all probability.

But m.g.h for a 20kg weight would only be ~ 20.10.5 = 1000J

Enough to light a 100W lamp for 10s.
(with 100% efficiency in practice you will be lucky to get 2-3s)

These guys have some details

http://gravitylight.org/faqs/

"GravityLight is installed to provide a 6ft/ 1.8m drop of a 12kg
weight. This weight is lifted and on release starts falling very
slowly (about 1mm / second).

What is the output of GravityLight?

To this question there are two answers: the power output of the
GravityLight in Watts, and the light output of GravityLight in
Lumens.

Our first version, GL01 has 3 power / speed settings, which can
be adjusted via a power dial on the front. A 12kg load on High
power provides 0.1 Watts, on Medium 0.075 Watts and on low
0.05W."

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
thescullster wrote:
Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Are you going to winch it up with an electric motor? ;-)

The amount of electricity a human can generate is pretty meaningless.

Think how hard work it is to drill a hole with a hand drill - and how easy
it is with a cordless drill. You get the idea? So the amount of work
needed to winch a weight up to the top of the house then use that to
generate electricity might light a small efficient bulb for a while. But
it's not going to produce enough to do anything useful.


Talking of mechanical to electrical conversion, did anyone else see the BBC
feature on the Mando E Bike? I shall not be rushing out to buy one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33151237

Tim

In article ,
Chris J Dixon wrote:
"GravityLight is installed to provide a 6ft/ 1.8m drop of a 12kg weight.
This weight is lifted and on release starts falling very slowly (about
1mm / second).

What is the output of GravityLight?

To this question there are two answers: the power output of the
GravityLight in Watts, and the light output of GravityLight in
Lumens.

Our first version, GL01 has 3 power / speed settings, which can
be adjusted via a power dial on the front. A 12kg load on High
power provides 0.1 Watts, on Medium 0.075 Watts and on low
0.05W."

More or less what I'd have guessed. Enough to light a signal LED. ;-)

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/06/2015 18:27, Tim+ wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
thescullster wrote:
Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Are you going to winch it up with an electric motor? ;-)

The amount of electricity a human can generate is pretty meaningless.

Think how hard work it is to drill a hole with a hand drill - and how easy
it is with a cordless drill. You get the idea? So the amount of work
needed to winch a weight up to the top of the house then use that to
generate electricity might light a small efficient bulb for a while. But
it's not going to produce enough to do anything useful.


I think that's also to do with the mechanical advantage the drill gives,
in terms of the gears/chuck speed and the hammer action.


Talking of mechanical to electrical conversion, did anyone else see the BBC
feature on the Mando E Bike? I shall not be rushing out to buy one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33151237


Ridiculous - but fine if you're rich, and don't need to stop or steer at
low speed.


--
Cheers, Rob

Why?
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"thescullster" wrote in message
...
Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work out
mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

Perhaps a 20Kg weight would be a reasonable starting point.


Thanks

Phil

On 24/06/2015 08:35, Brian-Gaff wrote:
Why?
Brian

Because, come the day of the apocalypse, we may well want to (eventually
if we survive) create electricity by some crude means for those gadgets
we simply can't do without.

On 23/06/2015 18:20, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

On 23/06/2015 15:58, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

60-80% lost in the mechanical conversion in all probability.

But m.g.h for a 20kg weight would only be ~ 20.10.5 = 1000J

Enough to light a 100W lamp for 10s.
(with 100% efficiency in practice you will be lucky to get 2-3s)

These guys have some details

http://gravitylight.org/faqs/

"GravityLight is installed to provide a 6ft/ 1.8m drop of a 12kg
weight. This weight is lifted and on release starts falling very
slowly (about 1mm / second).

What is the output of GravityLight?

To this question there are two answers: the power output of the
GravityLight in Watts, and the light output of GravityLight in
Lumens.

Our first version, GL01 has 3 power / speed settings, which can
be adjusted via a power dial on the front. A 12kg load on High
power provides 0.1 Watts, on Medium 0.075 Watts and on low
0.05W."

Chris

Thanks Chris

As some have said, a trifling output, but this can clearly be put to
good use.

Phil

In message , thescullster
writes

come the day of the apocalypse, we may well want to (eventually if we
survive) create electricity by some crude means for those gadgets we
simply can't do without.

I doubt electricity generation will be a priority, post Apocalypse. Read
The Road, by Cormac McCarthy.

Plot summary

An unnamed father and his young son journey across a grim
post-apocalyptic landscape, some years after an unspecified disaster has
destroyed civilization and most life on Earth. The land is filled with
ash and devoid of living animals and vegetation. Many of the remaining
human survivors have resorted to cannibalism, scavenging the detritus of
city and country alike for flesh. The boy's mother, pregnant with him at
the time of the disaster, gave up hope and committed suicide some time
before the story began, despite the father's pleas. Much of the book is
written in the third person, with references to "the father" and "the
son" or to "the man" and "the boy."

Realizing they cannot survive the oncoming winter where they are, the
father takes the boy south, along empty roads towards the sea, carrying
their meagre possessions in their knapsacks and in a supermarket cart.
The man coughs blood from time to time and eventually realizes he is
dying, yet still struggles to protect his son from the constant threats
of attack, exposure, and starvation.

They have a revolver, but only two rounds. The boy has been told to use
the gun on himself, if necessary, to avoid falling into the hands of
cannibals. During their trek, the father uses one bullet to kill a man
who stumbles upon them and poses a grave threat. Fleeing from the man's
companions, they have to abandon most of their possessions. As they are
near death from starvation, the man finds an unlooted hidden underground
bunker filled with food, new clothes, and other supplies. However, it is
too exposed, so they only stay a few days.

In the face of these obstacles, the man repeatedly reassures the boy
that they are "the good guys" who are "carrying the fire". On their
journey, the duo scrounge for food, evade roving bands, and contend with
horrors such as a newborn infant roasted on a spit and captives being
gradually harvested as food.

Although the man and the boy eventually reach the sea, their situation
does not improve. They head back inland, but the man loses blood after
being shot with an arrow. He dies, possibly due to his long-standing
respiratory ailment. The father tells the boy that he can continue to
speak with him through prayer after he is gone. The boy holds wake over
the corpse for a few days, with no idea of what to do next.

On the third day, the grieving boy encounters a man who says he has been
tracking the pair. The man, who is with a woman and two children,
convinces the boy that he is one of the "good guys" and takes him under
his protection.
--
Graeme

On 24/06/2015 08:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:59:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
thescullster wrote:
Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Are you going to winch it up with an electric motor? ;-)

The amount of electricity a human can generate is pretty meaningless.

Think how hard work it is to drill a hole with a hand drill - and how easy
it is with a cordless drill. You get the idea? So the amount of work
needed to winch a weight up to the top of the house then use that to
generate electricity might light a small efficient bulb for a while. But
it's not going to produce enough to do anything useful.

We bought one of those wind-up dynamo radios with a built-in torch, a
few years ago when they were all the rage, to cover power cuts. I was
surprised by the amount of effort you had to put in to wind the thing
up and get any useful playing time or light out of it. Bloody hard
work!

For a science lecture on "energy" we hooked a static exercise bike up to
a car alternator and inverter to drive a 60W light bulb or a 10W CFL.

Few people could sustain 100W for long and it made some younger members
of the audience more inclined to switch off lights when they became
aware of how much physical work it took to keep a light bulb on!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
In article , Martin Brown
wrote:

On 24/06/2015 08:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:59:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article , thescullster
wrote:
Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to
work out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical
output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock
winding mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of
the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day,
how much lecky could be derived.

Are you going to winch it up with an electric motor? ;-)

The amount of electricity a human can generate is pretty meaningless.

Think how hard work it is to drill a hole with a hand drill - and how
easy it is with a cordless drill. You get the idea? So the amount of
work needed to winch a weight up to the top of the house then use
that to generate electricity might light a small efficient bulb for a
while. But it's not going to produce enough to do anything useful.

We bought one of those wind-up dynamo radios with a built-in torch, a
few years ago when they were all the rage, to cover power cuts. I was
surprised by the amount of effort you had to put in to wind the thing
up and get any useful playing time or light out of it. Bloody hard
work!

For a science lecture on "energy" we hooked a static exercise bike up to
a car alternator and inverter to drive a 60W light bulb or a 10W CFL.

Few people could sustain 100W for long and it made some younger members
of the audience more inclined to switch off lights when they became
aware of how much physical work it took to keep a light bulb on!

They all think it's done by magic, that's the trouble. Or put another
way, are completely ignorant of the amount of power that flows through
the grid.

"This windfarm will power n thousand homes" - (or perhaps one Eurostar
train).

--
Please note new email address:

In article ,
thescullster wrote:
Because, come the day of the apocalypse, we may well want to (eventually
if we survive) create electricity by some crude means for those gadgets
we simply can't do without.

I'm old enough to remember when many crofts etc in the N of Scotland
didn't have mains electricity.

They used windmills to generate their own...

--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
For a science lecture on "energy" we hooked a static exercise bike up to
a car alternator and inverter to drive a 60W light bulb or a 10W CFL.

Few people could sustain 100W for long and it made some younger members
of the audience more inclined to switch off lights when they became
aware of how much physical work it took to keep a light bulb on!

Well, quite. And the same applied to any task we are now used to having
electricity do for us. Like, as I said, simply drilling a hole.

Or doing the washing by hand and using a mangle to remove most of the
water.

So doesn't take much to realise that only a small amount of electricity
can be generated by human power alone - and even less if it's from some
form of mechanical storage.

Other way to look at it is a small car alternator takes over 1 horse power
to deliver its maximum output.

--
*Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , thescullster
wrote:
Because, come the day of the apocalypse, we may well want to
(eventually if we survive) create electricity by some crude means for
those gadgets we simply can't do without.

I'm old enough to remember when many crofts etc in the N of Scotland
didn't have mains electricity.

They used windmills to generate their own...

sometime in the '70s I was checking on coverage of a new transmitter in the
Western Isles. Parked near one house and a lady came out (thinking I was a
detector van) "It's no use you looking here, we haven't got the electric."

--
Please note new email address:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Or doing the washing by hand and using a mangle to remove most of the
water.

What I had to assist with as a child.

Yup. And at my parent's home, washing and ironing for the family took up
the entire Monday - well into the evening.

Remember my mum's delight at getting a washing machine. Which only did the
washing. Replaced a few years later with a twin tub.

Was thinking about just that (probably prompted by this thread) when I
shoved a load of towels into the machine and went shopping. To find them
ready for hanging up to dry totally by the time I came back. ;-)

Made me ponder about the best domestic electrical appliance ever invented
in living memory. I'd say probably the automatic washing machine. The
Hoover is probably older than anyone still alive.

--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Made me ponder about the best domestic ... appliance ever invented
in living memory.

Soft toilet paper?

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 14:28:18 UTC+1, gareth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Made me ponder about the best domestic ... appliance ever invented
in living memory.

Soft toilet paper?

The ring pull.

but as for bikes how about the new treadmill ones

http://lopifit.com/shop/

In article ,
gareth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Made me ponder about the best domestic ... appliance ever invented
in living memory.

Soft toilet paper?

But would Curries sell you a 5 year warranty for it?

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 24/06/2015 09:53, Martin Brown wrote:

For a science lecture on "energy" we hooked a static exercise bike up to
a car alternator and inverter to drive a 60W light bulb or a 10W CFL.

Few people could sustain 100W for long and it made some younger members
of the audience more inclined to switch off lights when they became
aware of how much physical work it took to keep a light bulb on!


Every now and then, I drag the family to a visitor centre at some
electricity generating plant or other. The time before last was an
off-shore wind farm. They had a shiny display with a handle to turn and
a set of appliances which would power up as you turned the handle ever
faster. It was obviously faked and the handle was ridiculously easy to
turn. I asked the company rep about how accurate it was. "Oh yes, the
faster you turn it the more power you can generate." She said, clearly
not having understood the question. I left muttering to the wife and
kids about blatant propaganda from the wind lobby. They rolled their
eyes and we went to a nearby tea room.

The last one we went to was Sizewell B. They had what could have been
exactly the same display. I asked exactly the same question and got
exactly the same response. I grumbled all the way to "Sizewell Tea".

Cheers,

Colin.

In article , Colin
Stamp scribeth thus
On 24/06/2015 09:53, Martin Brown wrote:

For a science lecture on "energy" we hooked a static exercise bike up to
a car alternator and inverter to drive a 60W light bulb or a 10W CFL.

Few people could sustain 100W for long and it made some younger members
of the audience more inclined to switch off lights when they became
aware of how much physical work it took to keep a light bulb on!


Every now and then, I drag the family to a visitor centre at some
electricity generating plant or other. The time before last was an
off-shore wind farm. They had a shiny display with a handle to turn and
a set of appliances which would power up as you turned the handle ever
faster. It was obviously faked and the handle was ridiculously easy to
turn. I asked the company rep about how accurate it was. "Oh yes, the
faster you turn it the more power you can generate." She said, clearly
not having understood the question. I left muttering to the wife and
kids about blatant propaganda from the wind lobby. They rolled their
eyes and we went to a nearby tea room.

The last one we went to was Sizewell B. They had what could have been
exactly the same display. I asked exactly the same question and got
exactly the same response. I grumbled all the way to "Sizewell Tea".

Cheers,

Colin.

There is or used to be one in the Science museum and it was bloody hard
going to light a IIRC 20 or 30 watt bulb . That was a hand crank
driving a genny directly no other wiring anywhere.

There was also a prog some time ago on the telly of a load of cyclists
who had their bikes on frames with gennies attached it was showing how
many would have to pedal to work various bits of household equipment.

Around 80 of them were needed to boil a kettle;!...

--
Tony Sayer

On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 15:58:53 UTC+1, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Just wondering whether there was some sort of fairly easy way to work
out mechanical work done and the likely resulting electrical output.

The idea was to make the equivalent of the old grandfather clock winding
mechanism, only scaled up to the height of the gable end of the house.

If your were to winch a heavyish weight up to the top once per day, how
much lecky could be derived.

Presumably it is a conversion of the potential energy m.g.h but what are
the likely losses in gearing and the conversion process?

Perhaps a 20Kg weight would be a reasonable starting point.

What sort of gearing could one make or repurpose for something like this? Very high ratio, very robust and cheap to buy or easyish to make? The rest I can work out readily enough.


NT