Hello,

I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside, because it will be so much easier to open the
door to the postman, rather than hunt around for a key. I suppose
their only disadvantage is that if someone gets in through a window,
they can open the door and walk out with the tv. I suppose that's not
a reason not to choose them though; if that's a problem, I suppose the
answer is not leave windows open for burglars.

I see that cylinders should not protrude from the handles because this
makes them vulnerable to attack but it doesn't help that handles are
different thinknesses.

I wonder why we don't have cylinders that are only as thick as the
door and then they would not be as vulnerable?

To get to the point, Toolstation and similar places sell Yale, though
not at the sizes I need. Can anyone recommend a good supplier?

Is yale the brand to go for? I've also heard of Avocet; are they much
more secure? How do you get extra keys for avocet locks as they seem
to be cut differently from "traditional" keys.

Thanks,
Stephen.

If the cylinders are Euro cylinders and they are protruding beyond the handles then it's probably the wrong type fitted. I got an Avocet cylinder from these people

https://www.upvc-hardware.co.uk

As you can see there are 21 different versions. It just needs some careful measuring from the centre of the lock to,the outside of the internal and external handles and you should be able to get a lock that has minimal protrusions.

Richard

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:47:49 +0100, Stephen
wrote:

To get to the point, Toolstation and similar places sell Yale, though
not at the sizes I need. Can anyone recommend a good supplier?

www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/ have provided a good service in the
past.

http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/p...rity/cylinders

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:47:49 +0100, Stephen
wrote:

Hello,

I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside, because it will be so much easier to open the
door to the postman, rather than hunt around for a key. I suppose
their only disadvantage is that if someone gets in through a window,
they can open the door and walk out with the tv. I suppose that's not
a reason not to choose them though; if that's a problem, I suppose the
answer is not leave windows open for burglars.

I see that cylinders should not protrude from the handles because this
makes them vulnerable to attack but it doesn't help that handles are
different thinknesses.

I wonder why we don't have cylinders that are only as thick as the
door and then they would not be as vulnerable?

To get to the point, Toolstation and similar places sell Yale, though
not at the sizes I need. Can anyone recommend a good supplier?

Is yale the brand to go for? I've also heard of Avocet; are they much
more secure? How do you get extra keys for avocet locks as they seem
to be cut differently from "traditional" keys.

Thanks,
Stephen.


I just fitted a thumb turn Euro lock yesterday, I've been meaning to
do it for a while, visitors don't like being locked in, (I don't like
to leave the key in the lock) an there is the issue of an easy fire
escape.

If your original lock is proud of the escutcheon on one or both sides
it is probebly the wrong length to begin with.
They go up in 5 mm steps independently for either side

As I discovered the thumb turn ones are quoted with the thumb turn
(internal) side first eg 40/45

Measurement is from the securing screw hole centre to the end of the
barrel, in other words the two digits added.

The other thing I noticed after I fitted it, is the thumbturn itself
has a 7 mm shoulder, so if it was 5mm shorter on that side it would
still have functioned.

The one I got from Ebay turned out to be a "Carl F". It was £7.99
including postage and 3 keys. No idea how the quality compares with a
Yale et all, It looks OK to me.




--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 10:05:51 -0700 (PDT), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

If the cylinders are Euro cylinders and they are protruding beyond the handles then it's probably the wrong type fitted. I got an Avocet cylinder from these people

https://www.upvc-hardware.co.uk

As you can see there are 21 different versions. It just needs some careful measuring from the centre of the lock to,the outside of the internal and external handles and you should be able to get a lock that has minimal protrusions.

Richard

I have done some reading about avocet and apparently if the thumb turn
is not left in the correct position, you cannot open the lock using
the key from the other side. This put me off avocet, so I started to
look at Yale, only there is a similar disclaimer on their web site, so
now I am wondering whether I should give up on the thumb turn idea. I
don't like the idea of locking myself out because I've left the thumb
turn in the wrong position. Has anyone had experience of this?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen wrote:

I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside

Beware of having a thumbturn within reach of a letterbox, there are
tools available for locksmiths to allow operating thumbturns that way, I
doubt this has escaped the notice of scrotes. Why not keep a front door
key on a length of chain or elastic that can reach the front door, but
is well out of reach?

I see that cylinders should not protrude from the handles because this
makes them vulnerable to attack but it doesn't help that handles are
different thinknesses.

Handles and doors come in different thicknesses, euro cylinders are
generally available in separate 5mm increments for the indoor and
outdoor length.

Is yale the brand to go for? I've also heard of Avocet; are they much
more secure? How do you get extra keys for avocet locks as they seem
to be cut differently from "traditional" keys.

I think you get a certificate with the lock that "proves" you're the
owner, and locksmiths aren't suppose to cut keys without it, how well
this works in practice to stop grey copies of keys being made, I don't
know. You might also want to consider having keyed-alike or master
keyed locks if you're looking at higher security ones. Look into the
various anti-bump, anti-snap, anti-drill types.

On 18/06/2015 18:39, Stephen wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 10:05:51 -0700 (PDT), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

If the cylinders are Euro cylinders and they are protruding beyond the handles then it's probably the wrong type fitted. I got an Avocet cylinder from these people

https://www.upvc-hardware.co.uk

As you can see there are 21 different versions. It just needs some careful measuring from the centre of the lock to,the outside of the internal and external handles and you should be able to get a lock that has minimal protrusions.

Richard

I have done some reading about avocet and apparently if the thumb turn
is not left in the correct position, you cannot open the lock using
the key from the other side. This put me off avocet, so I started to
look at Yale, only there is a similar disclaimer on their web site, so
now I am wondering whether I should give up on the thumb turn idea. I
don't like the idea of locking myself out because I've left the thumb
turn in the wrong position. Has anyone had experience of this?

Can't see the logic in that. Turning the key turns the thumb turn e.g.
they are on the same shaft.

Just tried mine (Toolsatan jobbie) and can't make it do that.

Thumb turn is a small security risk IMO but a HUGE benefit in a fire.

On 18/06/2015 19:05, Andy Burns wrote:
Stephen wrote:

I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside

Beware of having a thumbturn within reach of a letterbox, there are
tools available for locksmiths to allow operating thumbturns that way, I
doubt this has escaped the notice of scrotes. Why not keep a front door
key on a length of chain or elastic that can reach the front door, but
is well out of reach?

I see that cylinders should not protrude from the handles because this
makes them vulnerable to attack but it doesn't help that handles are
different thinknesses.

Handles and doors come in different thicknesses, euro cylinders are
generally available in separate 5mm increments for the indoor and
outdoor length.

Is yale the brand to go for? I've also heard of Avocet; are they much
more secure? How do you get extra keys for avocet locks as they seem
to be cut differently from "traditional" keys.

I think you get a certificate with the lock that "proves" you're the
owner, and locksmiths aren't suppose to cut keys without it, how well
this works in practice to stop grey copies of keys being made, I don't
know. You might also want to consider having keyed-alike or master
keyed locks if you're looking at higher security ones. Look into the
various anti-bump, anti-snap, anti-drill types.


I look after two buildings that use those. The blanks to cut duplicate
keys are restricted to only one locksmith & only the building owner
knows who it is. If you found the locksmith he will only cut the key
after receiving written authorisation from the owner.

Timpson's et al can't obtain the blanks. Replacement key is around £6.
New euro cylinder £60+. They are anti-bump, anti-snap, anti-drill types.

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 17:47:54 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:

To get to the point, Toolstation and similar places sell Yale, though
not at the sizes I need. Can anyone recommend a good supplier?

amazon has reviews of all sellers

Is yale the brand to go for?

I've not encountered any brand that's not upto the job, so it doesn't seem to matter

I've also heard of Avocet; are they much
more secure? How do you get extra keys for avocet locks as they seem
to be cut differently from "traditional" keys.

I gather they're more cost, more security, I've not used those.


NT

On 18/06/2015 22:02, David Lang wrote:
On 18/06/2015 18:39, Stephen wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 10:05:51 -0700 (PDT), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

If the cylinders are Euro cylinders and they are protruding beyond
the handles then it's probably the wrong type fitted. I got an Avocet
cylinder from these people

https://www.upvc-hardware.co.uk

As you can see there are 21 different versions. It just needs some
careful measuring from the centre of the lock to,the outside of the
internal and external handles and you should be able to get a lock
that has minimal protrusions.

Richard

I have done some reading about avocet and apparently if the thumb turn
is not left in the correct position, you cannot open the lock using
the key from the other side. This put me off avocet, so I started to
look at Yale, only there is a similar disclaimer on their web site, so
now I am wondering whether I should give up on the thumb turn idea. I
don't like the idea of locking myself out because I've left the thumb
turn in the wrong position. Has anyone had experience of this?

Can't see the logic in that. Turning the key turns the thumb turn e.g.
they are on the same shaft.

Just tried mine (Toolsatan jobbie) and can't make it do that.

Thumb turn is a small security risk IMO but a HUGE benefit in a fire.



I guess Avocet might be different from the standard ones.

Ironic that Police will tell you NEVER to fit thumbscrews while Fire
Brigade says ALWAYS fit them.

Swapped my mum's from key to thumbscrew when she started to get
confused. I don't think I would ever want ones with keys inside.

On 18/06/2015 22:20, wrote:
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 17:47:54 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:

To get to the point, Toolstation and similar places sell Yale, though
not at the sizes I need. Can anyone recommend a good supplier?

amazon has reviews of all sellers

Is yale the brand to go for?

I've not encountered any brand that's not upto the job, so it doesn't seem to matter

I've also heard of Avocet; are they much
more secure? How do you get extra keys for avocet locks as they seem
to be cut differently from "traditional" keys.

I gather they're more cost, more security, I've not used those.


NT

OK I know I leave myself open to ridicule, but none of the locks
mentioned would be considered secure in my book, you can have anti bump
.....whatever, it is all marketing hype.

I got in to lockpicking a couple of years back and I am not that good
but very few locks defeat me. I have just had a Yale padlock that is
anti everything that cost £73 (cheapest I could find but sent to me for
free) and I was in within a few minutes. Most Euro style locks take
around a couple of minutes on a bad day.

Now the reality...most break-ins are a smashed window or a kicked in
door. Snapping the cylinder is a common way to defeat them so get the
correct size and you can fit a part internally that makes this more
difficult, its like a sort of brace.

Me...I have cheap locks with a stand alone alarm, noise (in my opinion)
is a bigger deterent as I doubt if any burglars actually pick locks.

ss wrote:

I have cheap locks with a stand alone alarm, noise

I just a nuisance, far too many false alarms from car/house alarms,
usually at 3 am, nobody pays attention to them any more.

I doubt if any burglars actually pick locks.

I suspect you're right.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 23:27:13 +0100, newshound
wrote:

Ironic that Police will tell you NEVER to fit thumbscrews while Fire
Brigade says ALWAYS fit them.

Swapped my mum's from key to thumbscrew when she started to get
confused. I don't think I would ever want ones with keys inside.

Thanks. Here is one warning about the avocet, copied and pasted from a
web site (an online shop found via google); the capitals are theirs:

"Care should be taken when using the ABS thumbturn cylinder. The
thumbturn is spring loaded to comply with the new TS008 maximum
security standard, this is a security feature whereby the thumbturn
cannot be "fished" to unlock the door from outside. THE THUMBTURN MUST
BE PUSHED IN TO TURN AND MUST BE RELEASED BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL OUT
POSITION AFTER EVERY OPERATION: This is a design feature to ensure
that the lock is always in the correct position to resist external
attack. IF THE THUMBTURN IS LEFT IN THE MIDWAY POSITION (IE: THE
SPRING MECHANISM HAS NOT RELEASED) YOU WILL ENCOUNTER A PROBLEM
INSERTING THE KEY FULLY FROM THE OUTSIDE. On a lever outside / lever
inside operation door this means that you could be locked out if a
member of your household has locked the door from the inside and not
returned the thumbturn to the correct position."

This made me think I would try Yale instead, but I found a similar
disclaimer for their 3 star locks, which I can't find at the moment to
quote, sorry.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:09:32 +0100, ss wrote:


Me...I have cheap locks with a stand alone alarm, noise (in my opinion)
is a bigger deterent as I doubt if any burglars actually pick locks.


Perhaps the way to go is a 1 star cylinder in a 2 star handle, to give
three star protection, rather than a 3 star lock with thumb turn with
this "feature". Like you say, probably most break ins are opportunists
through open doors and windows, or if determined, nothing will stop
them.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:09:32 +0100, ss wrote:

I got in to lockpicking a couple of years back

That's interesting. How did you learn that and where did you get your
equipment?

On 19/06/2015 10:44, Stephen wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:09:32 +0100, wrote:

I got in to lockpicking a couple of years back

That's interesting. How did you learn that and where did you get your
equipment?

Always wanted to try it but didnt start til I retired. Plenty of videos
on utube and a couple of helpful forums. The tools can be bought on line
but easy to make your own from hacksaw blades and the metal inserts in
car wiper blades. You only need 2 small tools to get most lower end
locks, a tension bar and a pick.
Once you understand how locks work its not so difficult although it did
take me 4 weeks to pick my first one. There are some I know I will never
manage to pick but I do enjoy the challenge.

On 19/06/2015 13:12, ss wrote:
On 19/06/2015 10:44, Stephen wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:09:32 +0100, wrote:

I got in to lockpicking a couple of years back

That's interesting. How did you learn that and where did you get your
equipment?

Always wanted to try it but didnt start til I retired. Plenty of videos
on utube and a couple of helpful forums. The tools can be bought on line
but easy to make your own from hacksaw blades and the metal inserts in
car wiper blades. You only need 2 small tools to get most lower end
locks, a tension bar and a pick.
Once you understand how locks work its not so difficult although it did
take me 4 weeks to pick my first one. There are some I know I will never
manage to pick but I do enjoy the challenge.

I wonder whether the Avocets, for all their more advanced features, are
still vulnerable to the automatic "vibrator" type pick which I believe
locksmiths often use.

On 19/06/2015 13:17, newshound wrote:
I wonder whether the Avocets, for all their more advanced features, are
still vulnerable to the automatic "vibrator" type pick which I believe
locksmiths often use.

Not sure about the vibrator tool but.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXgAtAy-YY

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 10:44:25 +0100, Stephen
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:09:32 +0100, ss wrote:

I got in to lockpicking a couple of years back

That's interesting. How did you learn that and where did you get your
equipment?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/piece-GOSO-c...ords=lock+pick

On 19/06/2015 10:44, Stephen wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 00:09:32 +0100, ss wrote:

I got in to lockpicking a couple of years back

That's interesting. How did you learn that and where did you get your
equipment?


I used to be able to pick locks at school and that was well before the
internet told you how.
It was fun to switch the bike locks about. 8-)

All you need is a bit of bent metal and a bit of spring for the majority
of locks.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015 07:02:57 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

ss wrote:

I have cheap locks with a stand alone alarm, noise

I just a nuisance, far too many false alarms from car/house alarms,
usually at 3 am, nobody pays attention to them any more.

I doubt if any burglars actually pick locks.

I suspect you're right.

So do I.
Also the Eurolocks I bought on Ebay were the cheapest I could find,
£7.99 "Carl F", but they were still described as high security, anti
pick, anti drill (But not anti bump IIRC).
I'm sure it's meaningless hype


--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:

the Eurolocks I bought on Ebay were the cheapest I could find,
£7.99 "Carl F", but they were still described as high security, anti
pick, anti drill (But not anti bump IIRC).

I should think anti-snap is the most important now ...

On 19/06/2015 13:24, ss wrote:
On 19/06/2015 13:17, newshound wrote:
I wonder whether the Avocets, for all their more advanced features, are
still vulnerable to the automatic "vibrator" type pick which I believe
locksmiths often use.

Not sure about the vibrator tool but.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXgAtAy-YY

Very impressive! Hadn't seen an Avocet key before, so "normal" vibrator
wouldn't work. I can't see myself doing it (I struggle with normal
cylinder locks and conventional picks).

On 19/06/2015 13:50, newshound wrote:
On 19/06/2015 13:24, ss wrote:
On 19/06/2015 13:17, newshound wrote:
I wonder whether the Avocets, for all their more advanced features, are
still vulnerable to the automatic "vibrator" type pick which I believe
locksmiths often use.

Not sure about the vibrator tool but.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXgAtAy-YY

Very impressive! Hadn't seen an Avocet key before, so "normal" vibrator
wouldn't work. I can't see myself doing it (I struggle with normal
cylinder locks and conventional picks).

Its not that impressive..
to do it he had to use a key with the magnet at the end and they have
the magnet in different positions depending on the key blank.

On 19/06/2015 22:41, dennis@home wrote:
On 19/06/2015 13:50, newshound wrote:
On 19/06/2015 13:24, ss wrote:
On 19/06/2015 13:17, newshound wrote:
I wonder whether the Avocets, for all their more advanced features, are
still vulnerable to the automatic "vibrator" type pick which I believe
locksmiths often use.

Not sure about the vibrator tool but.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXgAtAy-YY

Very impressive! Hadn't seen an Avocet key before, so "normal" vibrator
wouldn't work. I can't see myself doing it (I struggle with normal
cylinder locks and conventional picks).

Its not that impressive..
to do it he had to use a key with the magnet at the end and they have
the magnet in different positions depending on the key blank.

Admittedly all locks are different but from what I know the magnet is
reverse polarity to the lock magnets, it therefore makes sense to have
the magnet on the end as it will then pass over any other magnet
positions, if using proper tension you will then hold the magnetic pins
in place while using a normal pick to pick the lock.

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 17:47:54 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside, because it will be so much easier to open the
door to the postman, rather than hunt around for a key. I suppose
their only disadvantage is that if someone gets in through a window,
they can open the door and walk out with the tv.

Most doors should have two locks anyway, so have one with thumbturn inside for use while you're at home and egress in the event of fire. When away from home use the second lock which is keyed both sides. (just don't leave a spare key somewhere obvious indoors.)

You can easily get euro cylinders keyed alike if you only want to carry one key.

Owain

In message ,
writes
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 17:47:54 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside, because it will be so much easier to open the
door to the postman, rather than hunt around for a key. I suppose
their only disadvantage is that if someone gets in through a window,
they can open the door and walk out with the tv.

Most doors should have two locks anyway, so have one with thumbturn
inside for use while you're at home and egress in the event of fire.
When away from home use the second lock which is keyed both sides.
(just don't leave a spare key somewhere obvious indoors.)

You can easily get euro cylinders keyed alike if you only want to carry
one key.

I was about to suggest keyed alike, I've just done that to a house that
only has 2 euro locks and it saves on the number of keys carried.

I have another house with 5 euro locks and I'm tempted to do the same
there. A bit expensive if I ever loose a key and need to replace all
the locks though!

I also thought long and hard about internal thumb turns and decided
against it. I've had at least 2 attempted burglaries, but only 1 fire,
so far, so decided on security and always knowing where a key was.

I wonder if anyone has seen a uPVC front door with 2 locks so that one
could be used with a thumbturn during the day when occupied and the
other for added security at night and when away?


Owain



--
Bill

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 20:50:36 UTC+1, Bill wrote:
In message ,
writes
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 17:47:54 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
I'm looking to replace my lock cylinders. I'm thinking that I will
have thumb turns inside, because it will be so much easier to open the
door to the postman, rather than hunt around for a key. I suppose
their only disadvantage is that if someone gets in through a window,
they can open the door and walk out with the tv.

Most doors should have two locks anyway, so have one with thumbturn
inside for use while you're at home and egress in the event of fire.
When away from home use the second lock which is keyed both sides.
(just don't leave a spare key somewhere obvious indoors.)

You can easily get euro cylinders keyed alike if you only want to carry
one key.

I was about to suggest keyed alike, I've just done that to a house that
only has 2 euro locks and it saves on the number of keys carried.

I have another house with 5 euro locks and I'm tempted to do the same
there. A bit expensive if I ever loose a key and need to replace all
the locks though!

I also thought long and hard about internal thumb turns and decided
against it. I've had at least 2 attempted burglaries, but only 1 fire,
so far, so decided on security and always knowing where a key was.

I wonder if anyone has seen a uPVC front door with 2 locks so that one
could be used with a thumbturn during the day when occupied and the
other for added security at night and when away?

Sounds much like the classic Yale cylinder plus Chubb deadlock combi

If its a fully glazed door there's always a hammer for emergency exit.


NT