Could have some interesting applications:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfBWAJ7kbI

(does not say much about its I/O alas)

--
Cheers,

John.

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Copying comp.sys.raspberry-pi.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
Could have some interesting applications:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfBWAJ7kbI

(does not say much about its I/O alas)

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 5/8/2015 3:13 PM, James Harris wrote:
Copying comp.sys.raspberry-pi.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
Could have some interesting applications:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfBWAJ7kbI

(does not say much about its I/O alas)

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I'm mildly impressed with the $9 price tag, but not entirely impressed
with the lack of decent video. The $9 board needs an even pricier
daughter card for HDMI or VGA video. They include wifi but not
Ethernet. Only 1 USB port so you need a hub or a Bluetooth mouse. Not
as fast or as much memory as the rPi 2. Just not impressive for a
product that won't be out for nearly a year.

--

Rick

rickman wrote:

On 5/8/2015 3:13 PM, James Harris wrote:
Copying comp.sys.raspberry-pi.

"John Rumm" wrote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfBWAJ7kbI

I'm mildly impressed with the $9 price tag, but not entirely impressed
with the lack of decent video. The $9 board needs an even pricier
daughter card for HDMI or VGA video. They include wifi but not
Ethernet. Only 1 USB port so you need a hub or a Bluetooth mouse. Not
as fast or as much memory as the rPi 2. Just not impressive for a
product that won't be out for nearly a year.

Here's an article

http://makezine.com/2015/05/07/next-...st-9-computer/

Biggest problem: the Allwinner A13 processor. AllWinner has numerous
GPL violations against it for borrowing from many open source projects
(including FFMPEG) without respecting the license, and trying to embed
binary blobs into the Linux kernel under a non-kernel license.

http://linux-sunxi.org/GPL_Violations

Developers say that Allwinner devices are terrible to develop for -- and
it is largely because it's difficult to form a development community
around a device where the manufacturer is using outright deception to
try to hide GPL violations.

On 08/05/2015 23:12, rickman wrote:
On 5/8/2015 3:13 PM, James Harris wrote:
Copying comp.sys.raspberry-pi.

"John Rumm" wrote in message

Could have some interesting applications:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfBWAJ7kbI

(does not say much about its I/O alas)


I'm mildly impressed with the $9 price tag, but not entirely impressed
with the lack of decent video. The $9 board needs an even pricier
daughter card for HDMI or VGA video.

I don't see that as an issue in reality. Its going to be embedded (i.e.
headless) applications where something like this will shine. Leaving off
the VGA just lowers complexity, cost, and power consumption.

They include wifi but not
Ethernet. Only 1 USB port so you need a hub or a Bluetooth mouse. Not
as fast or as much memory as the rPi 2. Just not impressive for a
product that won't be out for nearly a year.

ISTM the product is "out" now.

I don't see this as a competitor for the pi directly (at lease not in
many of its intended rolls). Its more of an Arduino like platform.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On 5/9/2015 7:56 AM, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 23:12, rickman wrote:
On 5/8/2015 3:13 PM, James Harris wrote:
Copying comp.sys.raspberry-pi.

"John Rumm" wrote in message

Could have some interesting applications:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkfBWAJ7kbI

(does not say much about its I/O alas)


I'm mildly impressed with the $9 price tag, but not entirely impressed
with the lack of decent video. The $9 board needs an even pricier
daughter card for HDMI or VGA video.

I don't see that as an issue in reality. Its going to be embedded (i.e.
headless) applications where something like this will shine. Leaving off
the VGA just lowers complexity, cost, and power consumption.

Great if that is your app. But why have composite video if that is the
case? Eliminate the connector and even more power consumption. VGA is
passe, HDMI is the way to go. I don't even know what you would connect
composite to these days.


They include wifi but not
Ethernet. Only 1 USB port so you need a hub or a Bluetooth mouse. Not
as fast or as much memory as the rPi 2. Just not impressive for a
product that won't be out for nearly a year.

ISTM the product is "out" now.

Why do you say this? The kickstarter campaign has started and they say
they won't deliver any production boards until the end of the year.
Boards are scheduled to be available to the public until this time next
year. This is just the schedule, it may not actually be available until
later even.

--

Rick

On 5/9/2015 5:56 AM, John Rumm wrote:

I don't see this as a competitor for the pi directly (at lease not in
many of its intended rolls). Its more of an Arduino like platform.

I think this is more like the ESP-8266.

Most will not care about the GPL, they just want cheap and functions in
the embedded environment they want. ( small helps )

On 2015-05-08, rickman wrote:

I'm mildly impressed with the $9 price tag, but not entirely impressed
with the lack of decent video. The $9 board needs an even pricier
daughter card for HDMI or VGA video. They include wifi but not
Ethernet. Only 1 USB port so you need a hub or a Bluetooth mouse. Not
as fast or as much memory as the rPi 2. Just not impressive for a
product that won't be out for nearly a year.

Video is a non-issue. No one is saying this is a Pi competitor
outside the media looking for a known quantity to compare it to.
There is a whole world out there of embedded systems that simply
have no need for video. This has composite out, I can see _some_
value for debugging but but wouldn't be willing to pay much for
it. At $9 you clearly are not.

So no, it isn't as powerful as a Pi 2. It's still got plenty of
grunt compared to many of the alternatives in its price bracket
which is a different one to the Pi which IS too expensive for many
tasks, especially when the extras for a complete set up are added.
It is akin to maning that my modern little Citroen isn't as fast
as a GT40 from 50 years ago - they are aimed at different audiences
at one is not even attempting to be the other.

I do see a few niceties that make this board much easier to integrate
into something than the Pi, and at $9 it's just another component.
The board layout seems to lend itself quite naturally to a
daughterboard configuration, mounted on its connectors with a couple
of securing bolts through it and motherboard if you are feeling
paranoid. At a stroke that simple change makes integration a lot
easier than for the Pi. OTOH I too am unhappy with the lack of
wired Ethernet. For some tasks wireless would be acceptable or
even a necessity, but for anything that ends up being installed in
place it smells too much of a potentially problematic toy option.

--
Andrew Smallshaw

On 5/10/2015 3:11 PM, Andrew Smallshaw wrote:
On 2015-05-08, rickman wrote:

I'm mildly impressed with the $9 price tag, but not entirely impressed
with the lack of decent video. The $9 board needs an even pricier
daughter card for HDMI or VGA video. They include wifi but not
Ethernet. Only 1 USB port so you need a hub or a Bluetooth mouse. Not
as fast or as much memory as the rPi 2. Just not impressive for a
product that won't be out for nearly a year.

Video is a non-issue. No one is saying this is a Pi competitor
outside the media looking for a known quantity to compare it to.
There is a whole world out there of embedded systems that simply
have no need for video. This has composite out, I can see _some_
value for debugging but but wouldn't be willing to pay much for
it. At $9 you clearly are not.

So no, it isn't as powerful as a Pi 2. It's still got plenty of
grunt compared to many of the alternatives in its price bracket
which is a different one to the Pi which IS too expensive for many
tasks, especially when the extras for a complete set up are added.
It is akin to maning that my modern little Citroen isn't as fast
as a GT40 from 50 years ago - they are aimed at different audiences
at one is not even attempting to be the other.

I do see a few niceties that make this board much easier to integrate
into something than the Pi, and at $9 it's just another component.
The board layout seems to lend itself quite naturally to a
daughterboard configuration, mounted on its connectors with a couple
of securing bolts through it and motherboard if you are feeling
paranoid. At a stroke that simple change makes integration a lot
easier than for the Pi. OTOH I too am unhappy with the lack of
wired Ethernet. For some tasks wireless would be acceptable or
even a necessity, but for anything that ends up being installed in
place it smells too much of a potentially problematic toy option.

I understand what you are saying, but the rPi is the yardstick against
which all others are measured because it has been soooo successful in so
many ways. Sure, the board will be useful in a lot of apps because of
the $9 price tag. But it won't be nearly as successful as the rPi
because of the tradeoffs made. You even point out the potential issues
with the wireless rather than wired Ethernet... but then you can always
plug in a hub and a USB Ethernet adapter... and the list of issues goes
on.

No one is saying it is a bad board, but in the world of the rPi at $25 a
price point has been reached where the cost really doesn't matter and
lowering it to $9 doesn't make it much more appealing. The one area
where I can see this board having a real advantage is in the IoT. If
you can wire in a sensor and supply power, then a $9 price tag vs. $25
enables some apps where you would have used a CM3 or CM4 before.

I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on.

--

Rick

In article ,
rickman writes:

I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on.

The Raspberry Pi A+ in front of me only has 1 chip. The memory
is a separate chunk of silicon, but it's packaged as a second layer
on the SoC with the ARM.

There isn't any Ethernet, but it does have HDMI and a single USB port.

Looking harder, there is another tiny chip or two over in the
power supply corner.

--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.

On Sun, 10 May 2015 18:40:21 -0500, Hal Murray wrote:

In article ,
rickman writes:

I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on.

The Raspberry Pi A+ in front of me only has 1 chip. The memory is a
separate chunk of silicon, but it's packaged as a second layer on the
SoC with the ARM.

That layer also contains the GPU, and the memory is shared.

There isn't any Ethernet, but it does have HDMI and a single USB port.

Looking harder, there is another tiny chip or two over in the power
supply corner.

Yes, regulator. In fact most Pis have THREE regulators - two more over by
the I/O pins.

On 5/10/2015 7:40 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
In article ,
rickman writes:

I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on.

The Raspberry Pi A+ in front of me only has 1 chip. The memory
is a separate chunk of silicon, but it's packaged as a second layer
on the SoC with the ARM.

There isn't any Ethernet, but it does have HDMI and a single USB port.

Looking harder, there is another tiny chip or two over in the
power supply corner.

I haven't studied the rPi extensively, but I thought the USB had an
external hub chip? Does the A only have one USB port? Looking at some
images I see the Model A only has one USB and so the SMSC chip is not
needed at all. I don't count the power supply devices, they are a given
for nearly any CPU design.

Again, I'm not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure the memory chip is
indeed a separate package soldered piggy back on the CPU package, not
two die in a package. That is what they do on the Beagle boards. An
easy way to tell is to read the markings. If the visible markings are
for the ram chip it is piggy back. If the markings are for the Broadcom
CPU it is a dual die in one package.

Here is a link for the B+, clearly showing Samsung memory markings.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...i_B%2B_top.jpg

--

Rick

On Sun, 10 May 2015 21:16:44 -0400, rickman wrote:

Again, I'm not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure the memory chip is
indeed a separate package soldered piggy back on the CPU package, not
two die in a package.

As I said, the second chip is GPU and RAM. And yes, it's soldered on top.

On 11/05/15 08:42, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2015 21:16:44 -0400, rickman wrote:

Again, I'm not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure the memory chip is
indeed a separate package soldered piggy back on the CPU package, not
two die in a package.

As I said, the second chip is GPU and RAM. And yes, it's soldered on top.

It's just RAM. The chip underneath is the GPU and CPU.

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi rickman wrote:
I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on.

It's all a bit meaningless these days, when a 'chip' may actually be a
collection of silicon dice inside the same package (CPU+DRAM+flash, wifi
controller+RF, or 8 flash dice to make your many-GB micro SD card), either
stacked up or on a PCB-like silicon interposer. So if it was a die stack
you wouldn't be able to tell (without getting the fuming nitric acid out
anyway)

Theo

On 5/11/2015 3:42 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2015 21:16:44 -0400, rickman wrote:

Again, I'm not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure the memory chip is
indeed a separate package soldered piggy back on the CPU package, not
two die in a package.

As I said, the second chip is GPU and RAM. And yes, it's soldered on top.

Except it doesn't have a GPU inside... View a picture of the Pi and get
the part number of the memory. Then go to the manufacturer's web site
and look at the data sheet or even just the description they give on the
web page. GPU won't be there.

--

Rick

On 5/11/2015 8:31 AM, Theo Markettos wrote:
In comp.sys.raspberry-pi rickman wrote:
I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on.

It's all a bit meaningless these days, when a 'chip' may actually be a
collection of silicon dice inside the same package (CPU+DRAM+flash, wifi
controller+RF, or 8 flash dice to make your many-GB micro SD card), either
stacked up or on a PCB-like silicon interposer. So if it was a die stack
you wouldn't be able to tell (without getting the fuming nitric acid out
anyway)

Yes you can tell. The price will be higher. It is still cheaper to
solder the parts on top. You can also tell by looking at the edge for
the gap. It may be small, but there will be a gap.

But when you mention SD, they aren't sold as chips, they are modules.
Very different.

--

Rick

"rickman" wrote in message ...
[snip]
If you can wire in a sensor and supply power, then a $9 price tag vs. $25
enables some apps where you would have used a CM3 or CM4 before.

I remember some 10 or more years ago when they were projecting that
Linux would be available on a single chip. It is two or three chips
when you count the I/O, but still, it is amazing how it all just keeps
marching on. -- Rick

Semantics and support hardware aside, I believe the "Linux on a Chip" {Pournelle in Byte/Chaos Moanor "Dirt cheap Linux"} was intended to describe the miniaturization curve, not the actual black plastic encapsulation count. "...Moore's Law is inexorable, and yes, I know I am generalizing, I know what CHIPS are..."

_EATING YOUR CAKE, YET HAVING IT TOO_
Eight microSD TransFlash cards of 128 GigaBytes each will fit in the pen cap of a Sharpie marker, that's a terabyte folks, in case you haven't noticed. Just one of my little microSD TF cards of 8GB will easily balance on my little finger nail. Loaded and fully functional on it are nine versions of Linux, which I can boot at whim on my RPi or anyone else's (perhaps requiring an adaptor, does that count as a chip - no.)
The point is that there are more than eight million RPi's in the hands of the populace (not in sealed Data Centers, surrounded by corporate Druids in black ties on white shirts) which can be easily swapped or transported in an Altoids tin. If you were to go back to 1999 and show Jerry Pournelle today's RPi, he'd say that's exactly what he was talking about - and want one to play with. That's EIGHT Linux on one chip (even though I could care less about Scratch, if it didn't come free it wouldn't be there, I'm too busy having other fun to trash Scratch,) and the credit card sized computer board to run it will slip easily inside the void of my DVD/HTMI/DTV combo. Central Processor/Graphics Processor/Memory as two chips stacked to appear as one - semantics. Power support chips (necessarily separate) - semantics. Device connection/buffers - semantics. Boot image on removable storage - semantics. What we have here, gentlemen, is a failure to conflagrate! The fact is that the RPi is the realization of the Linux on a chip, system in you pocket with programming languages for everyman which was the dream envisioned. Truly we've had the Linux on a chip long before the RPi, add a screen, keypad, battery and radio gear and loose the express ability to use as a software development platform - you've got a mobile phone. How's that for a magic black box you can slip in your pocket, entertain you infants, customize with applications and still call home you'll be late - some of those magic function "black box"s are much more than "Linux on a Chip." Most of our granddaughters could tell you how to configure and use them better than we care to know. And so what?! My granddaughter upgraded the memory on her phone, so, pointing out it was still useful I backed up the old TF card, flashed NOOBS onto it and restored the backup data, then stuffed it in the RPi and got her started learning Python to examine her .mp3 files - on what would have otherwise been hand-me-down scrap. She's got her personal Linux, languages, lounge music and more on a chip which can easily be lost at the bottom of her pocket. If her friends have an RPi she can mount her personal computing environment faster than swapping cartridges of a Nintendo console. If she decides to get an RPi for herself, it's vastly less expensive than the year adjusted price of any game console I've ever bought - which I STILL had to hook-up to a display/TV. Semantics says the device upon which it runs is credit card sized, but the microSD TransFlash card is the chip which balances upon my little fingernail with room to spare and spare space for plenty of personal files and data as well as several additional Operating Systems/Versions plus several programming languages -THAT is Linux on a chip.

You want Linux on a cloud? Set up your RPi to boot from the network.
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