We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If
the CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and
is delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an
expert inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off
inspection of the installation should suffice, with periodic checking
that water is hot at the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.

On Saturday, 14 March 2015 12:00:31 UTC, nemo wrote:
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

Who is telling you this?

A managing agent with a kickback arrangement with a friendly plumber, perhaps?

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

Yes, if you have any cooling towers in your house and the H&SAWA applies.

The following will probably apply to some degree on the radiator circuit:

- the water temperature in all or some parts of the system is between 20-45 °C
- water is stored or re-circulated as part of your system
- there are sources of nutrients such as rust, sludge, scale, organic matter and biofilms
- the conditions are likely to encourage bacteria to multiply

Your risk assessment and action would be:

- use appropriate system cleaner/inhibitor on the primary circuit
- system is closed and any water loss / aerosolisation could normally only occur:
- when draining the system down
- when bleeding a radiator
- cover the bleed valve with a cloth to capture any water expressed

all of which you would do anyway.

If the managing agent is inspecting the property already then H&S should be part of that.

Owain

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:14:35 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 March 2015 12:00:31 UTC, nemo wrote:
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

Who is telling you this?

A managing agent with a kickback arrangement with a friendly plumber, perhaps?

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

Yes, if you have any cooling towers in your house and the H&SAWA applies.

The following will probably apply to some degree on the radiator circuit:

- the water temperature in all or some parts of the system is between 20-45 °C
- water is stored or re-circulated as part of your system
- there are sources of nutrients such as rust, sludge, scale, organic matter and biofilms
- the conditions are likely to encourage bacteria to multiply

Your risk assessment and action would be:

- use appropriate system cleaner/inhibitor on the primary circuit
- system is closed and any water loss / aerosolisation could normally only occur:
- when draining the system down
- when bleeding a radiator
- cover the bleed valve with a cloth to capture any water expressed

all of which you would do anyway.

If the managing agent is inspecting the property already then H&S should be part of that.

Owain

I would have thought the boiler would reguarly sterilise the system, at least as far as Legionella is concerned.


NT

On 14/03/2015 13:14, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 March 2015 12:00:31 UTC, nemo wrote:
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

Who is telling you this?

A managing agent with a kickback arrangement with a friendly plumber, perhaps?


I doubt if a plumber alone could tell you if you had Legionella in the
system. It would need a lab test.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 14/03/2015 13:14, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 March 2015 12:00:31 UTC, nemo wrote:
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

Who is telling you this?

A managing agent with a kickback arrangement with a friendly plumber, perhaps?

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

Yes, if you have any cooling towers in your house and the H&SAWA applies.

The following will probably apply to some degree on the radiator circuit:

- the water temperature in all or some parts of the system is between 20-45 °C
- water is stored or re-circulated as part of your system
- there are sources of nutrients such as rust, sludge, scale, organic matter and biofilms
- the conditions are likely to encourage bacteria to multiply

Your risk assessment and action would be:

- use appropriate system cleaner/inhibitor on the primary circuit
- system is closed and any water loss / aerosolisation could normally only occur:
- when draining the system down
- when bleeding a radiator
- cover the bleed valve with a cloth to capture any water expressed

all of which you would do anyway.

If the managing agent is inspecting the property already then H&S should be part of that.

Owain

Yes, it's the managing agent telling us:
"...the duty to provide a Risk Assessment for water now falls on
landlords as legislation, just like a Gas Safety Certificate and PAT
tests. This is to ensure that landlords are showing a 'duty of care'."

Funny that legionella inspection isn't mentioned he
https://www.gov.uk/renting-out-a-property/landlord-responsibilities

The agent has been on a training course[1], been awarded a certificate
and is now offering to do inspections himself. I don't think we'll be
availing ourselves of his kind offer.

[1] http://isac.co.uk/legionmanag.htm

In message , nemo
writes
On 14/03/2015 13:14, wrote:
On Saturday, 14 March 2015 12:00:31 UTC, nemo wrote:
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

Who is telling you this?

A managing agent with a kickback arrangement with a friendly plumber,
perhaps?

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

Yes, if you have any cooling towers in your house and the H&SAWA applies.

The following will probably apply to some degree on the radiator circuit:

- the water temperature in all or some parts of the system is between
20-45 °C
- water is stored or re-circulated as part of your system
- there are sources of nutrients such as rust, sludge, scale, organic
matter and biofilms
- the conditions are likely to encourage bacteria to multiply

Your risk assessment and action would be:

- use appropriate system cleaner/inhibitor on the primary circuit
- system is closed and any water loss / aerosolisation could normally
only occur:
- when draining the system down
- when bleeding a radiator
- cover the bleed valve with a cloth to capture any water expressed

all of which you would do anyway.

If the managing agent is inspecting the property already then H&S
should be part of that.

Owain

Yes, it's the managing agent telling us:
"...the duty to provide a Risk Assessment for water now falls on
landlords as legislation, just like a Gas Safety Certificate and PAT
tests. This is to ensure that landlords are showing a 'duty of care'."

Funny that legionella inspection isn't mentioned he
https://www.gov.uk/renting-out-a-property/landlord-responsibilities

The agent has been on a training course[1], been awarded a certificate
and is now offering to do inspections himself. I don't think we'll be
availing ourselves of his kind offer.

[1] http://isac.co.uk/legionmanag.htm


Find yourself a new agent.
--
bert

On 14/03/2015 22:09, bert wrote:
Find yourself a new agent.

Assuming that other agents are more transparent and trustworthy, which I
seriously doubt. After all, they're just a sub-species of estate agent,
aren't they?

He's been relatively well behaved thus far, so I'm going to stick with
the devil I know a bit longer, but continue to double-check everything.

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 12:00:31 PM UTC, nemo wrote:
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If
the CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and
is delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an
expert inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off
inspection of the installation should suffice, with periodic checking
that water is hot at the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.

If you do a Legionnaires assessment there is no need to repeat it in 2 years unless the plumbing/heating changes, the answers wil be the same. However I can't comment on the legal requirements.


NT

"nemo" wrote in message
...
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If the
CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and is
delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an expert
inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off inspection of the
installation should suffice, with periodic checking that water is hot at
the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.

Legionella is endemic. (ie everywhere)
Whether it becomes a problem is more to do with useage of a ho****er system
than design.
ie it will appear in any part of the system where water is not regularly
passing through.
The system ideally needs to have very hot water passed through it every once
in a while.
How often depends on the ambient temperature.
(Legionella loves chlorinne free water at around 20/30deg C
So water that's once been hot (driven the chlorine out) & is then just warm
is ideal breeding ground.
The ideal way to catch it is by an aerosol (eg in a shower) by inhalation.
Children, the ill and old people are more prone to catch it.
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.
But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.
Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any association between
those who do get severely affected by it and those who routinely
have baths rather than showers and who live where it doesn't rain
much.

In article ,
"john james" writes:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any association between
those who do get severely affected by it and those who routinely
have baths rather than showers and who live where it doesn't rain
much.

A few years ago, I suggested a study to perform following an
outbreak, and got an acknowledgement from the Chief Medical
Officer's office. This was to look for a correlation. Consider
those who were exposed and infected, versus those who were
almost certainly exposed but not infected. Now check plumbing
systems they normally use (home and workplace) for no
contamination with legionella (as is likely in newer plumbing
systems) versus low level contamination with legionella (more
likely in older plumbing systems).

I would not be surprised to find those infected (particularly
if otherwise healthy) have new ultra clean plumbing systems,
and those who were not infected have older plumbing systems
with routine low level legionella contamination, affording
them immunity. There may also be a correlation with those
who work outdoors, frequently exposing themselves to rainwater,
and those who don't.

Even in full blown localised flare-ups due to high concentration
distribution of the bacteria, the proportion of people exposed
who get a noticable infection is probably tiny when you consider
city centre outbreaks still only infect a few hundred people max,
whereas it's likely 10's to 100's of thousands were exposed.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"john james" writes:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any association between
those who do get severely affected by it and those who routinely
have baths rather than showers and who live where it doesn't rain
much.

A few years ago, I suggested a study to perform following an
outbreak, and got an acknowledgement from the Chief Medical
Officer's office. This was to look for a correlation. Consider
those who were exposed and infected, versus those who were
almost certainly exposed but not infected. Now check plumbing
systems they normally use (home and workplace) for no
contamination with legionella (as is likely in newer plumbing
systems) versus low level contamination with legionella (more
likely in older plumbing systems).

I would not be surprised to find those infected (particularly
if otherwise healthy) have new ultra clean plumbing systems,
and those who were not infected have older plumbing systems
with routine low level legionella contamination, affording
them immunity. There may also be a correlation with those
who work outdoors, frequently exposing themselves to rainwater,
and those who don't.

Even in full blown localised flare-ups due to high concentration
distribution of the bacteria, the proportion of people exposed
who get a noticable infection is probably tiny when you consider
city centre outbreaks still only infect a few hundred people max,
whereas it's likely 10's to 100's of thousands were exposed.

True, but I remember getting a facefull of wet air.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"john james" writes:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any association between
those who do get severely affected by it and those who routinely
have baths rather than showers and who live where it doesn't rain
much.

A few years ago, I suggested a study to perform following an
outbreak, and got an acknowledgement from the Chief Medical
Officer's office. This was to look for a correlation. Consider
those who were exposed and infected, versus those who were
almost certainly exposed but not infected. Now check plumbing
systems they normally use (home and workplace) for no
contamination with legionella (as is likely in newer plumbing
systems) versus low level contamination with legionella (more
likely in older plumbing systems).

I would not be surprised to find those infected (particularly
if otherwise healthy) have new ultra clean plumbing systems,
and those who were not infected have older plumbing systems
with routine low level legionella contamination, affording
them immunity. There may also be a correlation with those
who work outdoors, frequently exposing themselves to rainwater,
and those who don't.

Even in full blown localised flare-ups due to high concentration
distribution of the bacteria, the proportion of people exposed
who get a noticable infection is probably tiny when you consider
city centre outbreaks still only infect a few hundred people max,
whereas it's likely 10's to 100's of thousands were exposed.

Yeah, that's what I meant with those. They aren't generally those
with compromised immune systems either, so its likely to be due
to their immunity to legionella rather than their immune system.

How hard is it to test peoples' immunity level to legionella ?

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"john james" writes:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any association between
those who do get severely affected by it and those who routinely
have baths rather than showers and who live where it doesn't rain
much.

A few years ago, I suggested a study to perform following an
outbreak, and got an acknowledgement from the Chief Medical
Officer's office. This was to look for a correlation. Consider
those who were exposed and infected, versus those who were
almost certainly exposed but not infected. Now check plumbing
systems they normally use (home and workplace) for no
contamination with legionella (as is likely in newer plumbing
systems) versus low level contamination with legionella (more
likely in older plumbing systems).

I would not be surprised to find those infected (particularly
if otherwise healthy) have new ultra clean plumbing systems,
and those who were not infected have older plumbing systems
with routine low level legionella contamination, affording
them immunity. There may also be a correlation with those
who work outdoors, frequently exposing themselves to rainwater,
and those who don't.

Drivel.

There's no legionnella in rainwater.

In domestic situations, the problem has arisen since we all started to have
domestic hot water systems.
When I was a lad, we heated water as and when we needed it.
And then used it immediately.
And nobody had showers.
Showers were for wuzzers.

There is no such thing as an "ultra clean" plumbing system.
All domestic plumbing systems have legionnella, there's no avoiding it.
A new system will be colonised in a few weeks.
None storage sytems are marginally better.
But it lurks on the tap washers and in the limescale.

Plastic pipes are bad news, copper has bacteriocidal properties.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"john james" writes:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

That doesn't mean you can ignore the problem, as regardless of
the cause, there are now a significant proportion of people
who have lost their natural immunity to it.

It would be interesting to see if there is any association between
those who do get severely affected by it and those who routinely
have baths rather than showers and who live where it doesn't rain
much.

A few years ago, I suggested a study to perform following an
outbreak, and got an acknowledgement from the Chief Medical
Officer's office. This was to look for a correlation. Consider
those who were exposed and infected, versus those who were
almost certainly exposed but not infected. Now check plumbing
systems they normally use (home and workplace) for no
contamination with legionella (as is likely in newer plumbing
systems) versus low level contamination with legionella (more
likely in older plumbing systems).

I would not be surprised to find those infected (particularly
if otherwise healthy) have new ultra clean plumbing systems,
and those who were not infected have older plumbing systems
with routine low level legionella contamination, affording
them immunity. There may also be a correlation with those
who work outdoors, frequently exposing themselves to rainwater,
and those who don't.

Even in full blown localised flare-ups due to high concentration
distribution of the bacteria, the proportion of people exposed
who get a noticable infection is probably tiny when you consider
city centre outbreaks still only infect a few hundred people max,
whereas it's likely 10's to 100's of thousands were exposed.

Drivel.
The sourceof outbeaks has been traced back to water towers prevalent on
large AC systems in the past.
These are being done away with in favour of "dry" technology for heat
rejection.

The new air source heat pumps are a potentials new source of legionnela.
Especially reversible ones.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
Total elimination is impossible.
Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad.
It can only be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that
low level exposure generates immunity to it, which is not
a great surprise as that applies to many bacteria in the
environment which are potentially infectious to us, rendering
them benign as long as your immune system is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of
legionella over the last ~40 years are actually due to our
attempts to eliminate our exposure to bacteria, including
the design of super-clean plumbing systems (which perfectly
aligns with the start of the legionella outbreaks), resulting
in many people having lost their natural immunity to something
that's probably always been in rainwater.

It has been around for a long time but indentified.
The main cause for infection in the recent past has been the proliferation
of mechancical ventilation systems/AC and particularly cooling where water
condenses on evaporators/humidifiers.

Also water cooling towers.

Catching it from showers is quite rare, the droplets are too large to be
readily inhaled.

It's just a more virulant form of pneumonia.

In article , harryagain
wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article , "harryagain"
writes:
Total elimination is impossible. Every puddle has it, every drain.

It's found in rain too.

But only dangerous if turned into an aerosol.

Like rain!

Anybody who thinks they can eliminate it is barking mad. It can only
be reduced & it soon breeds up again.

Some years back, a team of Italian scientists showed that low level
exposure generates immunity to it, which is not a great surprise as
that applies to many bacteria in the environment which are potentially
infectious to us, rendering them benign as long as your immune system
is working.

I suspect it will eventually be shown that the flare-ups of legionella
over the last ~40 years are actually due to our attempts to eliminate
our exposure to bacteria, including the design of super-clean plumbing
systems (which perfectly aligns with the start of the legionella
outbreaks), resulting in many people having lost their natural immunity
to something that's probably always been in rainwater.

It has been around for a long time but indentified. The main cause for
infection in the recent past has been the proliferation of mechancical
ventilation systems/AC and particularly cooling where water condenses on
evaporators/humidifiers.

Also water cooling towers.

Catching it from showers is quite rare, the droplets are too large to be
readily inhaled.

Our Council's H&S department banned the use of our theatre's shower unless
we guaranteed to run it twice a week.. Just because there are big drops
doesn;t menathere can't be small ones as well.

It's just a more virulant form of pneumonia.

It's a form that doesn't respond to most anitbiotics. Luckily for me, there
is one which works. Mind you, having a body temperature of 104° for a
couple of days doesn't do a lot for ones long term health, nor does the
damage to ones lungs.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"nemo" wrote in message
...
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If the
CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and is
delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an expert
inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off inspection of the
installation should suffice, with periodic checking that water is hot at
the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.


Ignore it.

I work for quite a few landlords who own many dozens of properties and I've
never heard of this before.
Also, many of my relations live in council properties and they have never
been tested for legionella, so if local authorities don't bother, why should
anyone else?

On 14/03/2015 19:44, Phil L wrote:
"nemo" wrote in message
...
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

You are legally required to carry out a risk assessment and two years is
the longest period between reviews of the assessment. They can be more
frequent and should be renewed whenever there is a change to the system.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If the
CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and is
delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an expert
inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off inspection of the
installation should suffice, with periodic checking that water is hot at
the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.


Ignore it.

I work for quite a few landlords who own many dozens of properties and I've
never heard of this before.

I sell insect screens for water supplies and it is surprising just how
many people, including quite large organisations, have never heard of it
before it crops up in a routine H&S review, even though it has been
required for many years.

Also, many of my relations live in council properties and they have never
been tested for legionella, so if local authorities don't bother, why should
anyone else?

Local authorities, or anybody with a large number of identical
properties can do a single group risk assessment, so don't need to look
at every individual property to comply. Testing for Legionella is not
part of the assessment. Deciding whether the water supplies are properly
protected against insects entering stored water, considered to be the
main vector, is.


--
Colin Bignell

In article , Nightjar
writes
On 14/03/2015 19:44, Phil L wrote:
"nemo" wrote in message
...
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

You are legally required to carry out a risk assessment and two years is
the longest period between reviews of the assessment. They can be more
frequent and should be renewed whenever there is a change to the system.

Local authorities, or anybody with a large number of identical
properties can do a single group risk assessment, so don't need to look
at every individual property to comply. Testing for Legionella is not
part of the assessment. Deciding whether the water supplies are properly
protected against insects entering stored water, considered to be the
main vector, is.

I don't think it would take either of us long to do a risk assessment on
insect ingress on a combi based hot water system such as the o/p has.
Personally, I might be tempted not to review it at 2 years either but
hey, I like to live dangerously ;-)
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 14/03/2015 21:28, fred wrote:
....
I don't think it would take either of us long to do a risk assessment on
insect ingress on a combi based hot water system such as the o/p has.

No, but the assessment is still a legal requirement and it does need to
cover all the risk areas given on the government web site, not just
insect ingress. Even if there are no areas of risk in the system, the
assessment needs to record that fact, simply to demonstrate that the
risks have been considered. When I did risk assessments for medical
devices, the assessments ran to several pages each, but the vast
majority of entries amounted to this risk is not relevant to this product.

Personally, I might be tempted not to review it at 2 years either but
hey, I like to live dangerously ;-)

Risk assessments always need to have a review date. For simple
assessments, that usually involves little more than changing the dates
on the stored document and printing it out with the new dates.

--
Colin Bignell

On 14/03/2015 20:00, Nightjar cpb@ wrote:
Deciding whether the water supplies are properly protected against
insects entering stored water, considered to be the main vector, is.

1) That's the first I've heard of insects being involved in legionella
risk. Which ones are relevant to properties in England?

2) How much of a risk is this vector for a combi CH system which doesn't
store much water and isn't open to insect entry AFAIK?

"nemo" wrote in message
...
On 14/03/2015 20:00, Nightjar cpb@ wrote:
Deciding whether the water supplies are properly protected against
insects entering stored water, considered to be the main vector, is.

1) That's the first I've heard of insects being involved in legionella
risk. Which ones are relevant to properties in England?

2) How much of a risk is this vector for a combi CH system which doesn't
store much water and isn't open to insect entry AFAIK?

All bacteria in water rely on some form of cantamination for nutrition.
However some are sporing organisms which can last a long time without.
They spring into life when nutrition appears.
Not legionella BTW.

Some forms of jointing paste and gaskets have encouraged bacteria in the
past.
(Hence the use of PTFE)

On 14/03/2015 23:36, nemo wrote:
On 14/03/2015 20:00, Nightjar cpb@ wrote:
Deciding whether the water supplies are properly protected against
insects entering stored water, considered to be the main vector, is.

1) That's the first I've heard of insects being involved in legionella
risk. Which ones are relevant to properties in England?

Not my field. All I know is that my screens must have an aperture size
of 57 microns or less, so they are probably quite small.

2) How much of a risk is this vector for a combi CH system which doesn't
store much water and isn't open to insect entry AFAIK?

That is something that you need to address in the risk assessment, along
with things like are there any areas where water can stagnate and are
there sources of nutrition in the system for bacteria.


--
Colin Bignell

"Nightjar .me.uk" "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 14/03/2015 19:44, Phil L wrote:
"nemo" wrote in message
...
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

You are legally required to carry out a risk assessment and two years is
the longest period between reviews of the assessment. They can be more
frequent and should be renewed whenever there is a change to the system.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If
the
CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and is
delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an expert
inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off inspection of
the
installation should suffice, with periodic checking that water is hot at
the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.


Ignore it.

I work for quite a few landlords who own many dozens of properties and
I've
never heard of this before.

I sell insect screens for water supplies and it is surprising just how
many people, including quite large organisations, have never heard of it
before it crops up in a routine H&S review, even though it has been
required for many years.

Also, many of my relations live in council properties and they have never
been tested for legionella, so if local authorities don't bother, why
should
anyone else?

Local authorities, or anybody with a large number of identical properties
can do a single group risk assessment, so don't need to look at every
individual property to comply. Testing for Legionella is not part of the
assessment. Deciding whether the water supplies are properly protected
against insects entering stored water, considered to be the main vector,
is.


Well on new systems, tanks have to be lidded and the overflows screened.
Also tank insulation helps keep water temperatures down.
At one time one ocassionally found dead birds in the header tsnk

These solar hot water sytems are a rising problem with low water
temperatures.

On 14/03/2015 21:25, harryagain wrote:
....
Well on new systems, tanks have to be lidded and the overflows screened...

For certain values of 'new'. The water byelaws required that from at
least the 1980s and the current legislation dates from 1999.


--
Colin Bignell

Well I know a few landlords who have just one or two properties and they
just laughed when shown this message.
Sounds like the agent is after some extra dosh to me. I bet he knows just
the bloke to do the job, probably his Son or father in law.
Cynic mode off.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"nemo" wrote in message
...
We're told that we need to have our rental property inspected to comply
with H&SE requirements and that it will cost £81 every two years for the
privilege.

The property is a 2-bed modern terraced house with a combi boiler. If the
CH system was installed following the manufacturer's guidelines and is
delivering hot water to the taps and shower, I don't see why an expert
inspection is required periodically. At most, a once-off inspection of the
installation should suffice, with periodic checking that water is hot at
the taps and shower[1].

Here's what the H&SE advises:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/legionnaires/what-you-must-do.htm

I can understand the need to take such measures for large premises -
office block, hotel, factory etc. - but OTT otherwise. It looks like an
opportunity to make easy money for those doing these inspections in most
other cases.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others on this.

[1] We do regular general inspections of the property anyway, but tenant
would soon complain if the shower ran cooler than normal in any case.