Last Dec I made a cold water distribution manifold -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...47789/sizes/h/

Mains comes in top right, through a pressure regulator.

Top right 2x15mm are a pressure test dial and an early take off for
garden taps.

Then there's a main secondary isolator (so you can turn the house off
and leave garden auto-watering stuff working).

The stuff on the left are take offs for bathroom, shower room, kitchen etc.



Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many
were done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I
could, for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing
a few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary
for a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

On 25/02/2015 07:43, Tim Watts wrote:

Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many
were done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I
could, for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing
a few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary
for a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

I would suggest you could get away with one brass saddle clip on the
backbone pipe between the left two vertical drops. You won't need any of
the ones close to the backbone on the branches. The ones on the far
sides of the isolation values may on may not be needed - depends on what
connects to them (i.e. copper / plastic) and how.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/02/15 10:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/02/2015 07:43, Tim Watts wrote:

Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many
were done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I
could, for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing
a few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary
for a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

I would suggest you could get away with one brass saddle clip on the
backbone pipe between the left two vertical drops. You won't need any of
the ones close to the backbone on the branches. The ones on the far
sides of the isolation values may on may not be needed - depends on what
connects to them (i.e. copper / plastic) and how.


It'll all be copper drops with their own clips further down.

Thanks for that. I think you are right.

As I said, it was handy for initial assembly but it's going to a PITA to
split anything for maintenance after the fact. I'll pop it off and
remove those central plastic clips. The other ones I'll deal with when I
make off each pipe to the blanked off valves.

Next time (on the hot assembly that will overlap that lot) I will use
munsen clips - partly to get the spacing out - but they can be fully
retro fitted and removed.

On 25/02/2015 07:43, Tim Watts wrote:
Last Dec I made a cold water distribution manifold -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...47789/sizes/h/

Mains comes in top right, through a pressure regulator.

Top right 2x15mm are a pressure test dial and an early take off for
garden taps.

Then there's a main secondary isolator (so you can turn the house off
and leave garden auto-watering stuff working).

The stuff on the left are take offs for bathroom, shower room, kitchen etc.



Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many
were done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I
could, for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing
a few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary
for a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

I think you could lose the ones by the tees, at least assuming that
there is a saddle clip on the left hand side of the horizontal run
(hidden by the wood?).

On 25/02/15 10:27, newshound wrote:

I think you could lose the ones by the tees, at least assuming that
there is a saddle clip on the left hand side of the horizontal run
(hidden by the wood?).

Thanks - I agree with you and John. Just feel warm hearing other people
suggest the same

Yes, there is a saddle hidden - the end has a 22m isolator that will
eventually lead to the boiler.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:43:08 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

Last Dec I made a cold water distribution manifold -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...47789/sizes/h/

Mains comes in top right, through a pressure regulator.

Top right 2x15mm are a pressure test dial and an early take off for
garden taps.

Then there's a main secondary isolator (so you can turn the house off
and leave garden auto-watering stuff working).

The stuff on the left are take offs for bathroom, shower room, kitchen etc.



Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many
were done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I
could, for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing
a few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary
for a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

Either I am getting the "Doolally-taps" (see what I did there)
or you made that pipework a a year before last December, and posted
about it the following monrh.


--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 25/02/15 13:40, Graham. wrote:

Either I am getting the "Doolally-taps" (see what I did there)
or you made that pipework a a year before last December, and posted
about it the following monrh.


I made it last Nov/Dec - but am planing to do the final connections and
add the hot manifold this spring.

It was in this thought phase I wondered how maintainable it would be -
so a slight tweak may be in order whilst it's still easy.

I usually make a judgement error between the first time I set something
out and completing the job so do tend to make in the middle mods...

Tim Watts wrote:
I usually make a judgement error between the first time I set something
out and completing the job so do tend to make in the middle mods...

If you openly admit that that's your normal procedure, a career in
politics is obviously not for you. :-)

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 25/02/15 14:58, Mike Barnes wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
I usually make a judgement error between the first time I set something
out and completing the job so do tend to make in the middle mods...

If you openly admit that that's your normal procedure, a career in
politics is obviously not for you. :-)


Good - I hate politicians...

But yes - when doing something for the first time, it's hard to think
every little detail through - and it's always 100 times simpler on the
second or third time.

Here I overdid the clips as I initially thought support was good (and it
did act as a jig for lining stuff up) - but then looking at it the other
day, thought "how would I change the secondary main isolator valve for
the house"? (main main one is in a kitchen cupboard).

I've been through several iterations with electrics too - thankfully
before I committed cable to clip...

A real sparky would just do it.

But at work, I "just do it" with generally excellent results because
that's what I do all day...

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Last Dec I made a cold water distribution manifold -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...47789/sizes/h/

Mains comes in top right, through a pressure regulator.

Top right 2x15mm are a pressure test dial and an early take off for garden
taps.

Then there's a main secondary isolator (so you can turn the house off and
leave garden auto-watering stuff working).

The stuff on the left are take offs for bathroom, shower room, kitchen
etc.



Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many were
done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I could,
for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing a
few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary for
a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten years
or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.
Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.

On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten years
or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.
Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.


Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

On 25/02/15 17:17, newshound wrote:
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years

(Addressing harry who is in my killfile for talking crap)

"Crap valves"? Amazing you deduced that so easily.

The lever/butterflies are Pegler and the others are flow restrictor
valves from BES - probably made by Robert-Pearson.

First time I've heard Pegler called "crap"...

or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be
easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.

Nope. Each branch feeds one logical place - kitchen, bathroom, shower
room, garden, utility space (washing machine). It made good sense to put
them in a central location - but only because that's how my house works
(it just happened stuff branches out from this space quite neatly).

It also avoids problems with stagnant dead-legs of pipe, if for example
we use the utility space for a freezer rather than a washing machine or
the garden taps are isolated over winter.

Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.


Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

This is why he's in my killfile.

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On 25/02/15 17:17, newshound wrote:
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years

(Addressing harry who is in my killfile for talking crap)

"Crap valves"? Amazing you deduced that so easily.

The lever/butterflies are Pegler and the others are flow restrictor
valves from BES - probably made by Robert-Pearson.

First time I've heard Pegler called "crap"...


Harry always has a downer on ball valves whatever there provenance
--
Chris French

On 25/02/2015 19:19, Chris French wrote:
In message , Tim Watts
writes
On 25/02/15 17:17, newshound wrote:
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water
hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years

(Addressing harry who is in my killfile for talking crap)

"Crap valves"? Amazing you deduced that so easily.

The lever/butterflies are Pegler and the others are flow restrictor
valves from BES - probably made by Robert-Pearson.

First time I've heard Pegler called "crap"...


Harry always has a downer on ball valves whatever there provenance

Well I havent a clue if or what support is needed but it looks good and
I just wish my plumbing looked as good as that and accessible. I like
to see neat job.

"Chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim Watts
writes
On 25/02/15 17:17, newshound wrote:
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer
in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years

(Addressing harry who is in my killfile for talking crap)

"Crap valves"? Amazing you deduced that so easily.

The lever/butterflies are Pegler and the others are flow restrictor valves
from BES - probably made by Robert-Pearson.

First time I've heard Pegler called "crap"...


Harry always has a downer on ball valves whatever there provenance

That's because I spent forty years installing, running and maintaining large
pipe systems.
The only thing they're good for is dry gases and none corrosive liquids.

El cheapo ball valves and water are bad news.

On 25/02/2015 18:25, Tim Watts wrote:
On 25/02/15 17:17, newshound wrote:
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water
hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years

(Addressing harry who is in my killfile for talking crap)

"Crap valves"? Amazing you deduced that so easily.

The lever/butterflies are Pegler and the others are flow restrictor
valves from BES - probably made by Robert-Pearson.

First time I've heard Pegler called "crap"...

Don't mind harry - he thinks gate valves are good ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/15 17:17, newshound wrote:
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer
in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years

(Addressing harry who is in my killfile for talking crap)

"Crap valves"? Amazing you deduced that so easily.

The lever/butterflies are Pegler and the others are flow restrictor valves
from BES - probably made by Robert-Pearson.

First time I've heard Pegler called "crap"...


They are crap because the design concept is crap.
Often they are made using inferior alloys.
They are disposable, "proper" valves will outlast them and can be
serviced/repaired in line without removal.
As you actually only need one valve for the whole houses cold water, it
wouldn't have cost any more.

Peglar are just middle of the range manufacturer. They make these valves
just to stay in business, people buy these valves because they don't
realise they are buying crap. (Or don't care)
What's the point of a valve that'll likely be siezed up when you want to use
it?
And after you've used it may leak even if not siezed.
A leak that can't be fixed.


or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be
easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.

Nope. Each branch feeds one logical place - kitchen, bathroom, shower
room, garden, utility space (washing machine). It made good sense to put
them in a central location - but only because that's how my house works
(it just happened stuff branches out from this space quite neatly).





It also avoids problems with stagnant dead-legs of pipe, if for example we
use the utility space for a freezer rather than a washing machine or the
garden taps are isolated over winter.

Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.


Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

This is why he's in my killfile.

newshound wrote:

Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

Is Germany going to shut-down for the morning of the 20th?

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years
or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be
easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.
Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.


Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

Well he's spent a lot of time on it and made a neat job.
But all you need is one stop valve in a domestic house and make it a good
one.

You only need multiple valves on large commercial applications where the
rest of the system has to be kept running for money/safety reasons.

Most problems in pipework systems revolve around valves, less valves= less
problems

On 26/02/2015 07:49, harryagain wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years
or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be
easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.
Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.


Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

Well he's spent a lot of time on it and made a neat job.
But all you need is one stop valve in a domestic house and make it a good
one.

You only need multiple valves on large commercial applications where the
rest of the system has to be kept running for money/safety reasons.

You seem to be missing the whole point of DIYing these things. You get
to choose if you want the added convenience and serviceability that
having multiple valves adds. It has nothing to do whether its domestic
or commercial.

Most problems in pipework systems revolve around valves, less valves= less
problems

And the most problematic valves? The ones used most often (e.g. taps,
cistern valves, showers etc). I have never had a problem with a proper
service valve, and they have saved me many hours of time and much
inconvenience by allowing sections of a system to be isolated and worked
on without disruption to the remainder.

So my personal advice, festoon the system with full bore service valves,
makes life much easier later.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 26/02/2015 07:49, harryagain wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 25/02/2015 16:54, harryagain wrote:


Why bother? The additional clips don't hurt. May prevent water hammer
in
thef uture.
I see you have used crap valves. It will all have to be redone in ten
years
or so.
It would be good if you can arrange things so that the valves can be
easily
changed.
Though is was way OTT having so many.
Just more stuff to go wrong. More potential leaks.


Always a ray of (renewable) sunshine

Well he's spent a lot of time on it and made a neat job.
But all you need is one stop valve in a domestic house and make it a good
one.

You only need multiple valves on large commercial applications where the
rest of the system has to be kept running for money/safety reasons.

You seem to be missing the whole point of DIYing these things. You get to
choose if you want the added convenience and serviceability that having
multiple valves adds. It has nothing to do whether its domestic or
commercial.

Most problems in pipework systems revolve around valves, less valves=
less
problems

And the most problematic valves? The ones used most often (e.g. taps,
cistern valves, showers etc). I have never had a problem with a proper
service valve, and they have saved me many hours of time and much
inconvenience by allowing sections of a system to be isolated and worked
on without disruption to the remainder.

So my personal advice, festoon the system with full bore service valves,
makes life much easier later.

Bollix.

Only if they are in working order when you need them.
Apart from the main stop valve, the only other useful valves are ones that
save having to drain down a tank full of water.
So maybe one on the cold feed pipe between header tank and hot water
cylinder.
Where there is virtually no water to drain, eg cold water system, total
waste of time and money.
And with the **** isolation valves commonly on sale now, potential trouble.
So save money on crap valves and spend it on decent quality other valves.

They are just a consumer rip off, selling people (inferior) stuff they don't
need.

A bit like the insurance they try to sell you with just about everything you
buy these days.
Or unnecessarily complex/****ty stuff that can't be repaired/isn't needed.

Example. Thermostatic mixing valves for showers seems topical.

On 25/02/2015 07:43, Tim Watts wrote:
Last Dec I made a cold water distribution manifold -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...47789/sizes/h/

Mains comes in top right, through a pressure regulator.

Top right 2x15mm are a pressure test dial and an early take off for
garden taps.

Then there's a main secondary isolator (so you can turn the house off
and leave garden auto-watering stuff working).

The stuff on the left are take offs for bathroom, shower room, kitchen etc.



Anyway - I'm fairly sure I've overdone the number of pipe clips. Many
were done to aid assembly at the time so they've served their purpose.

Before I connect up any copper to that lot I do want to make sure I
could, for example, get that main lever valve out if it needed fixing.

So I'm thinking of demounting it while it's straighforward and removing
a few - particularly the plastic clips top right.

I will probably replace the top right plastic with brass clips that have
saddles.


So what do you think? I suspect clips right by the tees are unecessary
for a start. But I do want to make sure inline valves are supported.

Just my two penn'orth but I think it looks like a nice neat job and I
wouldn't touch it, now it's there. Those plastic clips would cut off
easily if you needed to get a bit of movement at some point and who
knows, maybe you'll never have to touch it?
(Not that I'm unsympathetic to your central premise as I always try to
do things so that I can reverse/maintain/etc them in the future!)

On 26/02/15 00:43, GMM wrote:

Just my two penn'orth but I think it looks like a nice neat job and I
wouldn't touch it, now it's there. Those plastic clips would cut off
easily if you needed to get a bit of movement at some point and who
knows, maybe you'll never have to touch it?
(Not that I'm unsympathetic to your central premise as I always try to
do things so that I can reverse/maintain/etc them in the future!)

Well, I've just had a long look and I think the right side could be
disassembled after all.

There are only 2 pipes coming off - the mains feed and the garden tap.
Both of this should have enough flex (thanks to the offset bend in both)
to sling off the top.

After that, the central valve can be undone and the right manifold
rotated top towards me. Then it will unclip.

So - yes, bit OTT on the clips, but I think still maintainable...

The only other thing I considered was whether too many clips might
strain the pipe, but they are plastic and a) went in according to the
pipe layout; b) have a little bit of give. So probably OK...

Will learn to be more subtle next time...



Annoyingly, munsens are 2mm too tall on their lowest settings to
directly replace a talon plus one spacer.

I really must measure all my pipe clips (I have a sample of practically
every type) and add it to the wiki... It would be useful to know what
clips match etc...