Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

It was, yes. A perhaps novel way - or adoption of an existing way - of
keeping it cool.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.

Did sound a bit like they didn't want to risk their own money investing in
production. And the family apparently has lots of money. ;-)

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 31/12/14 15:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.


This?

http://www.jakedyson.com/products/

Yes - it's a good idea - recognising heat does it for LEDs and designing
a fitting around it.

Typical about the useless UK manufacturers though - sounds like the
transputer all over again...

On 31/12/2014 15:44, Tim Watts wrote:
On 31/12/14 15:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.


This?

http://www.jakedyson.com/products/

Yes - it's a good idea - recognising heat does it for LEDs and designing
a fitting around it.

Typical about the useless UK manufacturers though - sounds like the
transputer all over again...

I suspect it was more about Dyson claiming patents and requiring
manufacturers' to invest with a single customer who won't commit to any
order.

I'm sure if Dyson asked for a quote to an engineering drawing or similar
without any R&D against a specific number of units there'd be a long queue.

A company in Malaysia doesn't care about patents and would happily copy
and sell to all and sundry.

On 31/12/14 16:25, Fredxxx wrote:

I suspect it was more about Dyson claiming patents and requiring
manufacturers' to invest with a single customer who won't commit to any
order.

I'm sure if Dyson asked for a quote to an engineering drawing or similar
without any R&D against a specific number of units there'd be a long queue.

A company in Malaysia doesn't care about patents and would happily copy
and sell to all and sundry.

Interesting theory.

But surely Dyson would be aware of this - so might as well be less arsey
with the UK factories since the end would be the same?

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.

******** - he could not wait to move his "vacuum" making business to
Malayasia 10 years ago. It's called cheap labour and more profit and has
**** all do with the price or weight of steel.

--
Adam

On 31/12/2014 16:25, Fredxxx wrote:

snip

I suspect it was more about Dyson claiming patents and requiring
manufacturers' to invest with a single customer who won't commit to any
order.

I suspect it was Dyson acting the bully and imposing 120 day payment
terms on suppliers. That's what large company bean-counters do to
justify their existence.

Using a heat pipe for an LED isn't new, neither is using the BBC to
advertise. And their vacuum cleaners suck.

Cheers
--
Syd

On 31/12/2014 15:44, Tim Watts wrote:
On 31/12/14 15:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.


This?

http://www.jakedyson.com/products/

Yes - it's a good idea - recognising heat does it for LEDs and designing
a fitting around it.

Typical about the useless UK manufacturers though - sounds like the
transputer all over again...

It claims it lasts for 37+ years! I wonder how long the warranty is?

But £800 - they're having a laugh! You could buy a hell of a lot of
replacement lamps for that amount!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 31/12/14 15:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.


This?

http://www.jakedyson.com/products/

Fark, look at the ****ing price.

Yes - it's a good idea - recognising heat does it for LEDs and designing a
fitting around it.

Typical about the useless UK manufacturers though - sounds like the
transputer all over again...

/
He still hopes to be able to manufacture in the UK in the future./q

Mmm be such a shame if he'd over egged the market... Looks simple. - bits of painted tube (allegedly steel?), LEDs and a power supply?

FFS Wonder what the patent hinges on?

Parts bill anyone?

Jim K

JimK wrote:

FFS Wonder what the patent hinges on?

The patents seem to cover the sliding-arm desk lamp and the discontinued
"motor" light, rather than the uplight or downlight ceiling versions

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/jacob-dyson

On 31/12/14 18:33, Roger Mills wrote:

It claims it lasts for 37+ years! I wonder how long the warranty is?

But £800 - they're having a laugh! You could buy a hell of a lot of
replacement lamps for that amount!

And I *never* buy fittings where the lamp is an integral part.

Even if it is non optimal, I'd rather have an LED in a standard (and in
long term standard, like (S)BC, (S)ES or GU10.

Because the tech is evolving so fast that today's ok-ish LED will be
replaced in a few years by one twice as good for half the price.

However, I try to choose my fittings so heat problems are reduced:

Large or open BC/ES fittings

Open GU10 (on teh end of decorative stalks

Downlighters only where they are for night lighting, so LED will be in
the 3W range.

In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
JimK wrote:

FFS Wonder what the patent hinges on?

He didn't mention patents at all.

The patents seem to cover the sliding-arm desk lamp and the discontinued
"motor" light, rather than the uplight or downlight ceiling versions

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/jacob-dyson

I tried looking up my patents on that site and it only finds one of
them, so I would not bet much on it being accurate for him either.
Patents owned by his company might not be in his name either, but
those of other employees (the actual inventors).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2014 18:33:39 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 31/12/2014 15:44, Tim Watts wrote:
On 31/12/14 15:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Dyson and son were on You and Yours today.

Son has 'invented' a very long life high power LED.

Not like father like son, then?

It was quite interesting.

He said he couldn't get anyone in the UK to make the lamp.
There was interest, but they all chickened out when presented with
a volume order. It's made in Malaysia, but that's no cheaper than
it would have been in the UK, because of the weight of steel which
has to be transported back. He still hopes to be able to manufacture
in the UK in the future.


This?

http://www.jakedyson.com/products/

Yes - it's a good idea - recognising heat does it for LEDs and designing
a fitting around it.

Typical about the useless UK manufacturers though - sounds like the
transputer all over again...

It claims it lasts for 37+ years! I wonder how long the warranty is?

But £800 - they're having a laugh! You could buy a hell of a lot of
replacement lamps for that amount!

Yes, it's a matter of balancing lamp replacement costs against
running costs. Unless they're already running very close to the lumen
efficiency limit (around 300Lm per watt), it's not a very wise
investment unless there's an overwhelming need to avoid having to
replace the lamp for decades at a time.

You can see this this replacement/running cost balance effect with
the American 120v 60W filament lamp where the option to run the
filament at even higher temperatures than the UK 240v 75W 1000 hour
lamp results in a 750 hour rating to save 15 watts for the same Lumen
output.

The 11.25 units of energy saving over the 750 hour lamp life more
than covers the increased relamping costs in domestic properties.

The 120v filament allows for higher temperature (better lumen
efficiency) for the same 1000 hour lamp life rating anyway but the
Yanks chose to trade a bit more life off for an even greater
improvement in efficiency.
--
J B Good

Johny B Good wrote:

it's a matter of balancing lamp replacement costs against
running costs. Unless they're already running very close to the lumen
efficiency limit (around 300Lm per watt), it's not a very wise
investment unless there's an overwhelming need to avoid having to
replace the lamp for decades at a time.

The large ones I saw on the website were ~7000 lumens from 66W and ~8800
lumens from 101W, so driven less hard than the current Aldi/Lidl/LEDhut
BC/ES offerings, which no doubt will give them an easier life, but no
prices available - four figures?

The small ones 545 lumens from 12W (including the low voltage PSU) only
driven half as hard as the ones in the shops at between £550 and £800
quid depending on height/fixing

You're paying one hell of a lot for a designer name and the buzzword
"heatpipe".

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 31/12/14 18:33, Roger Mills wrote:

It claims it lasts for 37+ years! I wonder how long the warranty is?

But £800 - they're having a laugh! You could buy a hell of a lot of
replacement lamps for that amount!

And I *never* buy fittings where the lamp is an integral part.

Even if it is non optimal, I'd rather have an LED in a standard (and in
long term standard, like (S)BC, (S)ES or GU10.

Because the tech is evolving so fast that today's ok-ish LED will be
replaced in a few years by one twice as good for half the price.

Yep

I can't see too many people rushing to make LED replacements for G24q
connectors.

Though I do note that the CFL prices have come down from the silly money
that they used to charge. Has the patent expired or did the patent holders
eventually realise that charging a premium that was greater than the cost of
replacing the bulb holder with a "normal" one wasn't actually doing them any
good

tim

On 31/12/2014 15:44, Tim Watts wrote:
This?

http://www.jakedyson.com/products/

Yes - it's a good idea - recognising heat does it for LEDs and designing
a fitting around it.

It looks like he's just doing an "Apple" job - all styling and
marketing. The "innovation" of using heat-pipe cooling is only necessary
because of the very slender shape. He certainly didn't design the
fitting around cooling the LED. He chose just about the worst fitting
shape possible as far as cooling is concerned. It would have been a much
better engineering solution to design a stylish fitting which can
accommodate a more conventional cooling arrangement. That wouldn't give
it a USP though.

Cheers,

Colin.

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
It claims it lasts for 37+ years! I wonder how long the warranty is?

The usual three years - unless you pay a fortune for an extended one?

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:13:44 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Johny B Good wrote:

it's a matter of balancing lamp replacement costs against
running costs. Unless they're already running very close to the lumen
efficiency limit (around 300Lm per watt), it's not a very wise
investment unless there's an overwhelming need to avoid having to
replace the lamp for decades at a time.

The large ones I saw on the website were ~7000 lumens from 66W and ~8800
lumens from 101W, so driven less hard than the current Aldi/Lidl/LEDhut
BC/ES offerings, which no doubt will give them an easier life, but no
prices available - four figures?

The small ones 545 lumens from 12W (including the low voltage PSU) only
driven half as hard as the ones in the shops at between £550 and £800
quid depending on height/fixing

You're paying one hell of a lot for a designer name and the buzzword
"heatpipe".

I couldn't work out why it needed all the heat management when the lm/W
figure was so low - the whole thing seems to be no better than a glorified
under-cabinet LED strip at 20X the price.
I've an Aldidl 3W, 250lm lamp that gets luke warm and has no obvious
cooling.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In article ,
"tim....." writes:

I can't see too many people rushing to make LED replacements for G24q
connectors.

I saw several at LuxLive last year.
(Was slightly interested as we have 3 downlighers I made ~20 years
ago which take these, and I wonder how long the control gear will
keep going.)

Though I do note that the CFL prices have come down from the silly money
that they used to charge. Has the patent expired or did the patent holders
eventually realise that charging a premium that was greater than the cost of
replacing the bulb holder with a "normal" one wasn't actually doing them any
good

Price is mostly based on volume and competition. The EU applied an
import duty for a while to try and protect the EU manufacturers,
but I think that's gone now.

The only patent I know of which significantly held back some CFL
designs was the one which covered twisting a tube into a spiral
(specifically, one way to manufacture them which is the only viable
way found), and that expired some years back now. The spiral formats
tend to be the most efficient (the least self-shadowing). Having
said that, spiral ones didn't make as big an entrance in the UK
as they did in other countries.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Johny B Good writes:
Yes, it's a matter of balancing lamp replacement costs against
running costs. Unless they're already running very close to the lumen
efficiency limit (around 300Lm per watt), it's not a very wise
investment unless there's an overwhelming need to avoid having to
replace the lamp for decades at a time.

You can see this this replacement/running cost balance effect with
the American 120v 60W filament lamp where the option to run the
filament at even higher temperatures than the UK 240v 75W 1000 hour
lamp results in a 750 hour rating to save 15 watts for the same Lumen
output.

The 11.25 units of energy saving over the 750 hour lamp life more
than covers the increased relamping costs in domestic properties.

The 120v filament allows for higher temperature (better lumen
efficiency) for the same 1000 hour lamp life rating anyway but the

It's higher efficiency due to filament geometry, not higher temperature.

The ideal filament geometry for a 100W lamp is achieved when you
design one to run from 55V. As you move the design voltage away
from 55V in either direction, the efficiency drops because:

a) if you increase the design voltage, the filament circumverence
to crosssectional area ratio means the filament has too much surface
area and gives off 100W without getting hot enough (coiling and
coiled-coil are done to reduce this effect so long filaments still
get up to 2700K, but it is still not as efficient), and

b) if you decrease the design voltage, you start wasting more
power which is conducted away from the filament ends in the thicker
lead-in wires needed.

Yanks chose to trade a bit more life off for an even greater
improvement in efficiency.

Yes, 750 hours is their standard, like ours was 1000h.
They get the double benefit of higher efficiency due to higher temp
because of shorter burning time, and higher efficiency because 120V
is nearer to the 55V ideal than 240V.

There were some ever higher efficiency filament lamps sold in the
US for a while (only in spotlamp form I think). They used 84V
filaments, which is the RMS voltage you get by half-wave rectifying
120V, and they had a half-wave rectifier in the lamp cap. 84V is
even nearer the 55V ideal than 120V, hence the efficiency gain.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 01/01/2015 12:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The usual three years

About the lifespan of the capacitors in the PSU driving the LEDs.



--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 01/01/2015 11:48, Colin Stamp wrote:
It would have been a much
better engineering solution to design a stylish fitting which can
accommodate a more conventional cooling arrangement.

With a design like that you could have someone's eye out.




--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 1 Jan 2015 12:59:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Johny B Good writes:
Yes, it's a matter of balancing lamp replacement costs against
running costs. Unless they're already running very close to the lumen
efficiency limit (around 300Lm per watt), it's not a very wise
investment unless there's an overwhelming need to avoid having to
replace the lamp for decades at a time.

You can see this this replacement/running cost balance effect with
the American 120v 60W filament lamp where the option to run the
filament at even higher temperatures than the UK 240v 75W 1000 hour
lamp results in a 750 hour rating to save 15 watts for the same Lumen
output.

The 11.25 units of energy saving over the 750 hour lamp life more
than covers the increased relamping costs in domestic properties.

The 120v filament allows for higher temperature (better lumen
efficiency) for the same 1000 hour lamp life rating anyway but the

It's higher efficiency due to filament geometry, not higher temperature.

The ideal filament geometry for a 100W lamp is achieved when you
design one to run from 55V. As you move the design voltage away
from 55V in either direction, the efficiency drops because:

a) if you increase the design voltage, the filament circumverence
to crosssectional area ratio means the filament has too much surface
area and gives off 100W without getting hot enough (coiling and
coiled-coil are done to reduce this effect so long filaments still
get up to 2700K, but it is still not as efficient), and

b) if you decrease the design voltage, you start wasting more
power which is conducted away from the filament ends in the thicker
lead-in wires needed.

Yanks chose to trade a bit more life off for an even greater
improvement in efficiency.

Yes, 750 hours is their standard, like ours was 1000h.
They get the double benefit of higher efficiency due to higher temp
because of shorter burning time, and higher efficiency because 120V
is nearer to the 55V ideal than 240V.

There were some ever higher efficiency filament lamps sold in the
US for a while (only in spotlamp form I think). They used 84V
filaments, which is the RMS voltage you get by half-wave rectifying
120V, and they had a half-wave rectifier in the lamp cap. 84V is
even nearer the 55V ideal than 120V, hence the efficiency gain.

Indeed but that's only for the 100W rated lamp. The optimum voltage
increases with increased lamp wattage. There aught to be a family of
voltage efficiency curves ordered by wattages for given design lamp
life hour ratings somewhere but my googling failed to turn up such
plots. Presumably, at some given wattage/lamp life combinations, the
optimum voltage could land up at 120v and even 240v (I'd guess around
the 250W/300W for 120v and probably somewhere around the 750W mark for
240v but that's only a guess).
--
J B Good