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#1
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No earth in lighting circuit?
No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room
and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
#2
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On 12/12/2014 09:09, The Medway Handyman wrote:
No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. Well there is a way... but she may not like it! No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... The "proper" solution is to rewire the circuit completely. The next best is to: 1) fit a RCBO for the lighting circuit in question (and any other similar ones) 2) Fix a sticker on the CU highlighting the circuits without earths and pointing out that all accessories must be Class II The cheating alternative, if she really *must* have the fitting is: 1) Disconnect the existing line in and out cables from the rose, and join them in a wago box or similar, and poke em back into the ceiling. 2) Find a nearby socket circuit, fit a FCU with 3A fuse, and take a feed from it to the light. Power the lamp from that. If not also replacing the switch drop wire then make sure she does not want a class I fancy metal switch. What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Electrocution mainly... More background he http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...thout_an_Earth -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#3
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:50:35 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/12/2014 09:09, The Medway Handyman wrote: No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. snip One other option sometimes is to bring the fitting upto Class 2 standard. NT |
#4
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Just run a separate earth wire. Ideally go round the other light positions too. It should go back to the consumer unit, not to the nearest socket. |
#5
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Is No. 1 daughter the paramedic? Another option not so far mentioned is to supply via an isolating transformer i.e. extra low voltage, and use 12 volt lamps or leds. 12 volt SBC and SES lamps are fairly readily available - try cpc. Owain |
#6
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Friday, 12 December 2014 09:08:59 UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk There are currently a lot of metal (usually chrome plated) floor and desk lamps in all the stores which lack any earth connection. Are these compliant with any regs? |
#7
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No earth in lighting circuit?
therustyone wrote:
There are currently a lot of metal (usually chrome plated) floor and desk lamps in all the stores which lack any earth connection. Are these compliant with any regs? If they have the "two squares" double insulated symbol, they ought to be ... |
#8
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No earth in lighting circuit?
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#10
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:50:18 +0000, The Medway Handyman
wrote: On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. and if the switch is in the neutral then it's frying time. -- Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.sandrila.co.uk/ |
#11
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment. Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about? Owain |
#12
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On 2014-12-12, Paul Herber wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:50:18 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote: On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. and if the switch is in the neutral then it's frying time. That's something TMH could check (& fix if necessary), isn't it? How common is/was it to switch the neutral instead of the live? |
#13
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On 12/12/2014 19:43, wrote:
On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment. Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about? Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#14
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. If it's a two way switch how would she know? Even a one way switch, most people don't know which way is on. |
#15
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"harryagain" wrote in message ... "The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. If it's a two way switch how would she know? Even a one way switch, most people don't know which way is on. Bull****. |
#16
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 03:32:36 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/12/2014 19:43, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment. Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about? Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way! My last GF's place has metal fittings and plates and no earth on the circuits. Two of the 'chandelier'-type are about 6' 2" from the floor - just enough to look high but a couple of inches too low. So far, no shock. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#17
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 20:01:43 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message ... "The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. If it's a two way switch how would she know? Even a one way switch, most people don't know which way is on. Bull****. Pull-switch, that is. -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#18
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No earth in lighting circuit?
In article , The Medway Handyman
writes No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? The short answer is that Class 1 equipment _must_ be earthed, it will say so in the instructions. Otherwise there is a risk to the user of electrocution if there a fault. The long answer is that the designer made reliance on an earth connection to guarantee its safe operation. It is likely that a single fault within the appliance (eg. chafing of a single layer of insulation) could result in the metalwork becoming live and so to cover that failure mode it is earthed to protect the user. Without the earth, in those circumstances, the user could receive a fatal electric shock. You can get metal cased class 2 lamps/products too but they have been designed in such a way that a single fault will not expose the user to a risk of shock. They are designed such that it would take 2 distinct and separate failures[1] to put the user at risk. As a result they are much safer and so can be used without an earth. This is represented in the class 2 'double insulated' square within a square symbol. Having heard you mention your daughter's background here before I was surprised that she would be so carefree about a safety related issue. Rules and procedures, sod it, just slap the defib on and set to max, CLEAR, nah, that's for wooses . . . . [1] technically it is possible to use 'reinforced' insulation where it is not practical to use 2 separate ones. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
#19
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"harryagain" wrote in message
... "The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. If it's a two way switch how would she know? Take out fuse or switch off MCB. -- Adam |
#20
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"ARW" wrote in message ... "harryagain" wrote in message ... "The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. If it's a two way switch how would she know? Take out fuse or switch off MCB. Not a great idea to have to do that, particularly given that someone else could well change the bulb and not realise that that needs to be done. She's unlikely to be too keen in a ****ing great sign on the ceiling next to the new fancy chandelier that says that has to be done for a bulb change. And doesn't do a damned thing about kids swinging conductive stuff around and hitting it either. |
#21
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 5:06:57 PM UTC, fred wrote:
In article , The Medway Handyman writes No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? The short answer is that Class 1 equipment _must_ be earthed, it will say so in the instructions. Otherwise there is a risk to the user of electrocution if there a fault. The long answer is that the designer made reliance on an earth connection to guarantee its safe operation. It is likely that a single fault within the appliance (eg. chafing of a single layer of insulation) could result in the metalwork becoming live and so to cover that failure mode it is earthed to protect the user. Without the earth, in those circumstances, the user could receive a fatal electric shock. You can get metal cased class 2 lamps/products too but they have been designed in such a way that a single fault will not expose the user to a risk of shock. They are designed such that it would take 2 distinct and separate failures[1] to put the user at risk. As a result they are much safer and so can be used without an earth. This is represented in the class 2 'double insulated' square within a square symbol. Having heard you mention your daughter's background here before I was surprised that she would be so carefree about a safety related issue. Rules and procedures, sod it, just slap the defib on and set to max, CLEAR, nah, that's for wooses . . . . [1] technically it is possible to use 'reinforced' insulation where it is not practical to use 2 separate ones. The differences between a modern class 1 & Class 2 product are fairly minor, and its often very easy to turn 1 into 2, hence my suggestion. In a lot of cases it requires nothing more than a cable tie. Main requirements for class 2: 1. 2 layers of insulation (or occasionally reinforced insulation) between live & case 2. Means of preventing a single broken wire end from touching the case. A cable tie attaching L to N, thus preventing one from touching case if it comes adrift is often enough. And fwiw the risk in using an unearthed _modern_ metal chandelier is actually very small. We take far bigger risks daily without batting an eyelid. NT |
#22
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On 12/12/2014 17:50, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. The problem is that insulation failure (or any number of other causes) could make it live. Normally earthing ensures that it can only be live for a very short period of time - in likelihood preventing a shock in the first place, and making it far less dangerous if you happen to be unlucky enough to get one. Without earthing, a fault will leave it live permanently. And there it will wait, until it bites someone having a stretch, wielding a vacuum cleaner, moving a ladder etc. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#23
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"PeterC" wrote in message
.. . On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 03:32:36 +0000, John Rumm wrote: On 12/12/2014 19:43, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment. Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about? Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way! My last GF's place has metal fittings and plates and no earth on the circuits. Two of the 'chandelier'-type are about 6' 2" from the floor - just enough to look high but a couple of inches too low. So far, no shock. I have seen hundreds of such setups. The risks of a shock do not dramatically increase just because there is no earth. You need a fault and no earth to increase the risk of a shock. -- Adam |
#24
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No earth in lighting circuit?
in 1355061 20141213 090143 "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message ... "The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... On 12/12/2014 11:07, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? Death, mostly. Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. If it's a two way switch how would she know? Even a one way switch, most people don't know which way is on. Bull****. Like your brain, then. |
#25
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On 13/12/2014 19:15, wrote:
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 5:06:57 PM UTC, fred wrote: In article , The Medway Handyman writes No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? The short answer is that Class 1 equipment _must_ be earthed, it will say so in the instructions. Otherwise there is a risk to the user of electrocution if there a fault. The long answer is that the designer made reliance on an earth connection to guarantee its safe operation. It is likely that a single fault within the appliance (eg. chafing of a single layer of insulation) could result in the metalwork becoming live and so to cover that failure mode it is earthed to protect the user. Without the earth, in those circumstances, the user could receive a fatal electric shock. You can get metal cased class 2 lamps/products too but they have been designed in such a way that a single fault will not expose the user to a risk of shock. They are designed such that it would take 2 distinct and separate failures[1] to put the user at risk. As a result they are much safer and so can be used without an earth. This is represented in the class 2 'double insulated' square within a square symbol. Having heard you mention your daughter's background here before I was surprised that she would be so carefree about a safety related issue. Rules and procedures, sod it, just slap the defib on and set to max, CLEAR, nah, that's for wooses . . . . [1] technically it is possible to use 'reinforced' insulation where it is not practical to use 2 separate ones. The differences between a modern class 1 & Class 2 product are fairly minor, and its often very easy to turn 1 into 2, hence my suggestion. In a lot of cases it requires nothing more than a cable tie. Main requirements for class 2: 1. 2 layers of insulation (or occasionally reinforced insulation) between live & case 2. Means of preventing a single broken wire end from touching the case. A cable tie attaching L to N, thus preventing one from touching case if it comes adrift is often enough. And fwiw the risk in using an unearthed _modern_ metal chandelier is actually very small. We take far bigger risks daily without batting an eyelid. NT So, if I were to sleeve the live with some shrink wrap & tie the L & N together, would that be safe? -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
#26
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No earth in lighting circuit?
In article , The Medway Handyman
writes So, if I were to sleeve the live with some shrink wrap & tie the L & N together, would that be safe? Nope because with the best will in the world you are (respectfully) not competent to assess and re-design electrical equipment to make a safe conversion from class 1 to class 2. You do not know what other works may be required on it to make a safe conversion and I don't think a series of what-ifs here will change that. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
#27
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 12:26:18 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 13/12/2014 19:15, wrote: On Saturday, December 13, 2014 5:06:57 PM UTC, fred wrote: In article , The Medway Handyman writes No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and asked me to fit it. Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting circuits weren't earthed? I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up... What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I can reinforce my argument? The short answer is that Class 1 equipment _must_ be earthed, it will say so in the instructions. Otherwise there is a risk to the user of electrocution if there a fault. The long answer is that the designer made reliance on an earth connection to guarantee its safe operation. It is likely that a single fault within the appliance (eg. chafing of a single layer of insulation) could result in the metalwork becoming live and so to cover that failure mode it is earthed to protect the user. Without the earth, in those circumstances, the user could receive a fatal electric shock. You can get metal cased class 2 lamps/products too but they have been designed in such a way that a single fault will not expose the user to a risk of shock. They are designed such that it would take 2 distinct and separate failures[1] to put the user at risk. As a result they are much safer and so can be used without an earth. This is represented in the class 2 'double insulated' square within a square symbol. Having heard you mention your daughter's background here before I was surprised that she would be so carefree about a safety related issue. Rules and procedures, sod it, just slap the defib on and set to max, CLEAR, nah, that's for wooses . . . . [1] technically it is possible to use 'reinforced' insulation where it is not practical to use 2 separate ones. The differences between a modern class 1 & Class 2 product are fairly minor, and its often very easy to turn 1 into 2, hence my suggestion. In a lot of cases it requires nothing more than a cable tie. Main requirements for class 2: 1. 2 layers of insulation (or occasionally reinforced insulation) between live & case 2. Means of preventing a single broken wire end from touching the case. A cable tie attaching L to N, thus preventing one from touching case if it comes adrift is often enough. And fwiw the risk in using an unearthed _modern_ metal chandelier is actually very small. We take far bigger risks daily without batting an eyelid. NT So, if I were to sleeve the live with some shrink wrap & tie the L & N together, would that be safe? I've not seen the item, so its hard to be definitive. Often yes, but there are a couple of potential areas that might need more work: Metal lampholders often have nothing but a few mm of air between live terminal screws and case - if this is the case it doesnt meet Class 2 requirements. L&N should both be double insulated from the case. Modern kit often uses double inuslated flex, but if not it will generally need sleeving or replacing The point of tying L&N together is to prevent case contact if one breaks away - just check it will do this. A choc block connector in a metal housing isnt double insulated, so would need sleeving or similar. NT |
#28
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 4:04:58 PM UTC, fred wrote:
In article , The Medway Handyman writes So, if I were to sleeve the live with some shrink wrap & tie the L & N together, would that be safe? Nope because with the best will in the world you are (respectfully) not competent to assess and re-design electrical equipment to make a safe conversion from class 1 to class 2. You do not know what other works may be required on it to make a safe conversion and I don't think a series of what-ifs here will change that. That's why we ask each other stuff before diying. This case is simple and orders of magnitude lower risk than most diy we do. You can fear up if you want though. NT |
#29
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No earth in lighting circuit?
On 14/12/2014 08:56, ARW wrote:
"PeterC" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 03:32:36 +0000, John Rumm wrote: On 12/12/2014 19:43, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment. Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about? Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way! My last GF's place has metal fittings and plates and no earth on the circuits. Two of the 'chandelier'-type are about 6' 2" from the floor - just enough to look high but a couple of inches too low. So far, no shock. I have seen hundreds of such setups. The risks of a shock do not dramatically increase just because there is no earth. You need a fault and no earth to increase the risk of a shock. My fathers house was built in 1956 and had four wall lights in the living room with nice 'shell' glasses. Step mother decided (that the house was now hers) and to junk them in favour of some horrendous metal carriage lights. Sparky obviously said, 'no earth, so I must fit an rcd' - whole house. As they got older, the only bulbs came from tesco or M&S where they do all their shopping (convenient parking). ABout 2 years ago a cheap tesco bulb went pop and plunged whole house into darkness. Step mother tried to change bulb from a 2-step ladder using a torch - couldn't manage. Much swearing and arguing, so father got up (aged 89 and with weak legs). Next thing he was on the floor with leg bent at an awkward angle. By the time neighbour had been summoned the damage was done, and he could hardly walk. Eventually doctor agreed hip replacement was needed, which was done after only a short wait (In South Wales too), and now he can get about again. Moral of the tale. Sometimes the risk of electocution is far less than the certainty of a fall if the house is plunged into darkness. The old rewirable fuses would not have blown when a cheap bulb went pop. And £10K was spent on a hip replacement that would never have been needed. |
#30
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No earth in lighting circuit?
"Andrew" wrote in message ... On 14/12/2014 08:56, ARW wrote: "PeterC" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 03:32:36 +0000, John Rumm wrote: On 12/12/2014 19:43, wrote: On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote: Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb and she could turn to power off when she did it. Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment. Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about? Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way! My last GF's place has metal fittings and plates and no earth on the circuits. Two of the 'chandelier'-type are about 6' 2" from the floor - just enough to look high but a couple of inches too low. So far, no shock. I have seen hundreds of such setups. The risks of a shock do not dramatically increase just because there is no earth. You need a fault and no earth to increase the risk of a shock. My fathers house was built in 1956 and had four wall lights in the living room with nice 'shell' glasses. Step mother decided (that the house was now hers) and to junk them in favour of some horrendous metal carriage lights. Sparky obviously said, 'no earth, so I must fit an rcd' - whole house. As they got older, the only bulbs came from tesco or M&S where they do all their shopping (convenient parking). ABout 2 years ago a cheap tesco bulb went pop and plunged whole house into darkness. Step mother tried to change bulb from a 2-step ladder using a torch - couldn't manage. Much swearing and arguing, so father got up (aged 89 and with weak legs). Next thing he was on the floor with leg bent at an awkward angle. By the time neighbour had been summoned the damage was done, and he could hardly walk. Eventually doctor agreed hip replacement was needed, which was done after only a short wait (In South Wales too), and now he can get about again. Moral of the tale. Sometimes the risk of electocution is far less than the certainty of a fall if the house is plunged into darkness. The old rewirable fuses would not have blown when a cheap bulb went pop. And £10K was spent on a hip replacement that would never have been needed. There is no risk of electrocution at all if double insulated light fittings had been used. |
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No earth in lighting circuit?
Eventually doctor agreed
hip replacement was needed, which was done after only a short wait (In South Wales too), and now he can get about again. Moral of the tale. Sometimes the risk of electocution is far less than the certainty of a fall if the house is plunged into darkness. The old rewirable fuses would not have blown when a cheap bulb went pop. And £10K was spent on a hip replacement that would never have been needed. Yes but surely that hip replacement has bettered his mobility if nothing else?.. A few people I know who have had them done have much better mobility!... -- Tony Sayer |
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