Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp, path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by knowing the score a bit.


Thanks

Andy Dingley wrote:
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp, path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by knowing the score a bit.


Thanks

A whole lot of council houses round here were single skin concrete and
have now had an external skin of brick and insulation fitted to bring
them up to modern standards. Obviously not cheap but very standard and
no need for repainting every few year either. No need for specialist
trades and possibly a whole lot stronger than render on top of insulation.
I often wonder what the latter are like to lean a ladder up against for
decoration etc.

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 4:28:30 PM UTC, Andy Dingley wrote:
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp, path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by knowing the score a bit.


Thanks

Does not sound encouraging. It is their only option?

Philip

On 25/11/2014 16:44, Bob Minchin wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the
roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result
of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp,
path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the
few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House
eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the
outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials?
Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to
get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt
a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by
knowing the score a bit.


Thanks

A whole lot of council houses round here were single skin concrete and
have now had an external skin of brick and insulation fitted to bring
them up to modern standards. Obviously not cheap but very standard and
no need for repainting every few year either. No need for specialist
trades and possibly a whole lot stronger than render on top of insulation.
I often wonder what the latter are like to lean a ladder up against for
decoration etc.

Are you sure they weren't Smiths houses?
They jack the floor and roof up and knock the walls down and then
rebuild a brick and block cavity walls.

On 25/11/2014 16:28, Andy Dingley wrote:
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the
roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a
result of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with
damp, path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the
few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a
thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House
eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the
outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials?
Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to
get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt
a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped
by knowing the score a bit.


Thanks


They did that with some 8 floor blocks of flats around here.
It looks easy.
You can get special fixings that screw/resin into the concrete that
support the insulation and the cement board(?) you render over.
They looked fine for a few years although they are growing moss on the
render now.

Bob Minchin wrote:

A whole lot of council houses round here were single skin concrete and
have now had an external skin of brick and insulation fitted to bring
them up to modern standards. Obviously not cheap but very standard and
no need for repainting every few year either. No need for specialist
trades and possibly a whole lot stronger than render on top of insulation.
I often wonder what the latter are like to lean a ladder up against for
decoration etc.

Are they real brick? The ones I have seen have a brick-effect
either in or applied to the render.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

In message , Andy
Dingley writes
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the
roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result
of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp,
path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the
few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House
eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside,
with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

Umm.. polythene vapour barrier, 75mm PIR foam, 25mm x 38mm battens
secured with adjustable screws, galvanised metal lath, cement render/
feather edge board/ vertical Larch board. Door and window openings need
some thought.

Issues... minute cracks will form at the metal lath joins, feather edge
board has knots which drop out and invite Pipistrelle Bats to colonise
the space behind, Larch weathers to Grey.....

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get
themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a
decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by
knowing the score a bit.


Thanks

--
Tim Lamb

In article , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , Andy
Dingley writes
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the
roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result
of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp,
path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the
few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House
eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside,
with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

Umm.. polythene vapour barrier, 75mm PIR foam, 25mm x 38mm battens
secured with adjustable screws, galvanised metal lath, cement render/
feather edge board/ vertical Larch board. Door and window openings need
some thought.

I've seen a proggy where this was done by a specialist contractor, PIR
boards first then (I think) EML next, direct on to the boards then a
coat with a special flexible render that could cope with the movement of
the flexible substrate.

I imagine the difficulty arises with where the vapour barrier goes,
obviously foil faced boards are impermeable (no additional barrier
required there) but vapour barriers would conventionally go on the warm
side and then there's the issue of existing penetrating damp, if that is
sealed in then it could lead to problems.

Can't remember which proggy I saw it in but a search for external
insulation with flexible render could pull up some results. Yep, just
done that and plenty of likely hits.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
Bob Minchin wrote:

A whole lot of council houses round here were single skin concrete and
have now had an external skin of brick and insulation fitted to bring
them up to modern standards. Obviously not cheap but very standard and
no need for repainting every few year either. No need for specialist
trades and possibly a whole lot stronger than render on top of insulation.
I often wonder what the latter are like to lean a ladder up against for
decoration etc.

Are they real brick? The ones I have seen have a brick-effect
either in or applied to the render.

I've certainly seen it done with a brick skin, I watched a job being
done
--
Chris French

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:31:34 PM UTC, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , Andy
Dingley writes
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the
roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result
of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp,
path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the
few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House
eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside,
with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

Umm.. polythene vapour barrier, 75mm PIR foam, 25mm x 38mm battens
secured with adjustable screws, galvanised metal lath, cement render/
feather edge board/ vertical Larch board. Door and window openings need
some thought.

I've seen a proggy where this was done by a specialist contractor, PIR
boards first then (I think) EML next, direct on to the boards then a
coat with a special flexible render that could cope with the movement of
the flexible substrate.

I imagine the difficulty arises with where the vapour barrier goes,
obviously foil faced boards are impermeable (no additional barrier
required there) but vapour barriers would conventionally go on the warm
side and then there's the issue of existing penetrating damp, if that is
sealed in then it could lead to problems.

It evaporates to the interior, which is about the same temp as the outer edge of the concrete once the insulation is in place.


NT

On 25/11/2014 16:28, Andy Dingley wrote:
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp, path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by knowing the score a bit.


Tell him to walk away from it.


--
Peter Crosland

Reply address is valid

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 4:28:30 PM UTC, Andy Dingley wrote:
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the roads are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result of the valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp, path moss and cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the few forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside, with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a decade ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by knowing the score a bit.


Thanks

Another vaguley remembered, but look up U.S. experiences of external insulation on concrete block construction, sure there are some issues....

Chris French wrote:
In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
Bob Minchin wrote:

A whole lot of council houses round here were single skin concrete and
have now had an external skin of brick and insulation fitted to bring
them up to modern standards. Obviously not cheap but very standard and
no need for repainting every few year either. No need for specialist
trades and possibly a whole lot stronger than render on top of
insulation.
I often wonder what the latter are like to lean a ladder up against for
decoration etc.

Are they real brick? The ones I have seen have a brick-effect
either in or applied to the render.

I've certainly seen it done with a brick skin, I watched a job being done
No, the interior was left the same and a full brick outer was built all
round the outside.
New windows were fitted into the outer skin and new reveals fitted inside.
It was a real transformation to the appearance of the street. No more
dirt mottled painted concrete, smart brickwork instead.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
Friend is buying a 1920s concrete block house. Steep site, so the roads
are flat and every house is either up or down steps. As a result of the
valley and lack of sun, there are always problems with damp, path moss and
cold.

Construction is a single leaf of concrete blocks. So it's one of the few
forms of construction where "penetrating damp" is really a thing.

Overall, the best fix (inspired somewhat by reading The Yellow House
eco-blog) would seem to be applied foamboard insulation on the outside,
with render over. Any thoughts? Suggestions for materials? Technique?

This isn't going to be DIY (I ain't doing it, and they're moving to get
themselves out of a live-in barn conversion that ground to a halt a decade
ago). Still, good project management of builders is helped by knowing the
score a bit.

Obviously they've picked it up for a song as it's a damp cave, but getting
the house up to any kind of standard is going to cost as much as buying a
normal house...the exterior insulation and scaffold will use up a lot of
money, as will getting some kind of DPC inside, along with the internal
plastering, timber replacement etc...if the joist ends are inside the
concrete block wall and been exposed to the elements, the joists may have to
be replaced.

They might be as well getting someone in to cost all this before comitting
to buy this place as it may well end up the same way as the barn.

On Tuesday, 25 November 2014 16:49:51 UTC, wrote:

Does not sound encouraging. It is their only option?

Their simplest option is to move in and light the fire. They've gone on for a hundred years that way.

As it is, the chimneys are damp, there's some trivial cracking visible outside and the wall beneath the chimney stacks is going green. Inside is best described as "minging damp", but then that's probably more because the house has been empty for a year and it had a work-from-home laundress in it beforehand! So, work is needed. If work is needed and scaff is to be hired, the kitty is ample for making things somewhat improved - the question is how best to do it.

Other options were to buy the really nice house two streets down (I suggested this originally) or to buy the decrepit Georgian hovel alongside what's nearly the world's largest tidal range. They were keen on that (why?!), but having at least talked them out of that one, I think the '20s concrete is a reasonable choice.

On Tuesday, 25 November 2014 17:30:42 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
Umm.. polythene vapour barrier, 75mm PIR foam, 25mm x 38mm battens
secured with adjustable screws, galvanised metal lath, cement render/
feather edge board/ vertical Larch board. Door and window openings need
some thought.

Windows (modern PVC of a few years ago) will get recessed a bit deeper. Not a big deal - there's no view from the front and the rear aspect is a bit drier. Would it be sensible to insulate just half the house? It probably needs a stepped edge to the insulation with the next door semi- anyway.

Front door is possible getting wrapped in a porch anyway.

Galv lath or stainless? I have heard some comments saying that galv would fail too soon.

How's the lath (and thus render) attached structurally? Is there enough bond via the foam fixing bolts? If there's anything else used, is that a risk of cold bridging?

I prefer render to larch. Render fits in with the character of the area (a Garden Suburb) and I think it's quite likely that council planners would object to timber cladding in this area. I know I would, although I'm the next village along.

On Wednesday, 26 November 2014 07:17:40 UTC, Peter Crosland wrote:

Tell him to walk away from it.

They've got to live _somewhere_. This house is also unlikely to have foot+ deep snowdrifts on a half mile drive, like the last place.

On Wednesday, 26 November 2014 16:53:05 UTC, Phil L wrote:

Obviously they've picked it up for a song as it's a damp cave,

No, it's sensible money. Not cheap, not dear. Nice area of the town, but all the houses are this same '20s block.

the exterior insulation and scaffold will use up a lot of
money,

Well scaff's cheap enough - any thoughts on how many tens of kiloquid we're talking for the outside?

if the joist ends are inside the
concrete block wall and been exposed to the elements, the joists may have to
be replaced.

I haven't been inside yet, but I think the floors are concrete (given local styles)


They might be as well getting someone in to cost all this before comitting
to buy this place as it may well end up the same way as the barn.

We've had our roofer (top guy - Jay @ Rescue My Roof / SE Wales) potter around on the top and be appalled. But then he does take a cautious line on such things. Naturally the surveyor didn't spot a thing.

In article , Andy
Dingley writes
On Tuesday, 25 November 2014 17:30:42 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
Umm.. polythene vapour barrier, 75mm PIR foam, 25mm x 38mm battens
secured with adjustable screws, galvanised metal lath, cement render/
feather edge board/ vertical Larch board. Door and window openings need
some thought.

Windows (modern PVC of a few years ago) will get recessed a bit deeper. Not a
big deal - there's no view from the front and the rear aspect is a bit drier. Would it
be sensible to insulate just half the house? It probably needs a stepped edge to the
insulation with the next door semi- anyway.

I had assumed it was a detached property. I can't believe anyone with
any morals would blight a neighbouring semi detached property with a 3"
step change wall front and back. The only consolation would be that the
planners should throw it out on impact considerations.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In message , Andy
Dingley writes
On Tuesday, 25 November 2014 17:30:42 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
Umm.. polythene vapour barrier, 75mm PIR foam, 25mm x 38mm battens
secured with adjustable screws, galvanised metal lath, cement render/
feather edge board/ vertical Larch board. Door and window openings need
some thought.

Windows (modern PVC of a few years ago) will get recessed a bit deeper.
Not a big deal - there's no view from the front and the rear aspect is
a bit drier. Would it be sensible to insulate just half the house? It
probably needs a stepped edge to the insulation with the next door
semi- anyway.

Front door is possible getting wrapped in a porch anyway.

Galv lath or stainless? I have heard some comments saying that galv
would fail too soon.

I think ours is galvanised, 20 years so far. The original pargetting was
done on unprotected expanded metal in 1938. Still sound in 1995.

How's the lath (and thus render) attached structurally? Is there
enough bond via the foam fixing bolts? If there's anything else used,
is that a risk of cold bridging?

http://www.aspltd.co.uk/distance-screws.php

The lath was nailed to the battens.

I prefer render to larch. Render fits in with the character of the area
(a Garden Suburb) and I think it's quite likely that council planners
would object to timber cladding in this area. I know I would, although
I'm the next village along.

This is Herts. next to Essex. Clapboard!

The barns are feather edge so we compromised with half and half.

--
Tim Lamb