On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

This is a photo of the neighbours house to show you what it looked liked
before he started

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted9.jpg

More photos of the nice works here
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted2.jpg
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted3.jpg

I call someone with an acro

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted4.jpg

Time to fit the new doors - just needs leveling up on the left hand side

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted5.jpg

All levelled up and you can see how much the wall has moved by

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted6.jpg

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it iin
place until it bites

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist and
it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Enjoy

--
Adam

On 17/11/14 08:18, ARW wrote:

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Sounds like a couple of tie timbers (aka ceiling joists) would do nicely

Just how often do you get sidetracked off the main job? ;-)

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 17/11/14 08:18, ARW wrote:

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Sounds like a couple of tie timbers (aka ceiling joists) would do nicely


Just how often do you get sidetracked off the main job? ;-)


On this job - lots of times:-).

At work not so often. Although when the agency labourer ****ed off home at
midday I downed my snips and I fire stopped the building before the building
inspector arrived. And it passed the inspection with flying colours.

--
Adam

My then neighbour some years ago decided to remove all the downstairs walls
and make it open plan, and then build a single storey extension on the back
and knocked the back wall of the house out as well. All in a terrace of four
on one of the inner houses next to mine. Using mainly mates from the trade
he did jack things up and put the right bits of old iron in, but still
managed to damage all our roofs cementing and crack the render on the
outside walls as the structure moved slightly with the change in weight
bearing.
Also he came unstuck by burying the soil pipe from the toilet under the
concrete floor of the extension and had to have it dug up. Very noisy that
was.

I do sometimes wonder if enough consideration is payed to neighbouring
property when folk get the urge to do 'home improvements'.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"ARW" wrote in message
...
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 17/11/14 08:18, ARW wrote:

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Sounds like a couple of tie timbers (aka ceiling joists) would do nicely


Just how often do you get sidetracked off the main job? ;-)


On this job - lots of times:-).

At work not so often. Although when the agency labourer ****ed off home at
midday I downed my snips and I fire stopped the building before the
building inspector arrived. And it passed the inspection with flying
colours.

--
Adam

On 17/11/2014 08:18, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

'kinell, lucky the whole lot did not just splay out at the top and dump
the whole roof into the room under it!

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it
iin place until it bites

Nice recovery...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Would be worth sticking that quick overview into the wiki to go with the
photos. Nicely illustrates what the "floor/ceiling" joists do in
traditional roof framing.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/11/2014 11:30, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 17/11/2014 08:18, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

'kinell, lucky the whole lot did not just splay out at the top and
dump the whole roof into the room under it!

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it
iin place until it bites

Nice recovery...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Would be worth sticking that quick overview into the wiki to go with
the photos. Nicely illustrates what the "floor/ceiling" joists do in
traditional roof framing.

And, for constructional know-nothings like me, it would be useful to
have a brief overview of how things would be done differently, if
there'd been no extension there and one wanted to build what the DIYer
had been trying to convert it to, i.e., an extension with a vaulted
ceiling.

The main issue is one of "thrust". Nail a couple of bits of wood
together to form an apex, and then add weight to the top (tiles etc),
you will tend to flatten out the apex - pushing the free ends apart (and
if you are unlucky, pushing the walls over into the bargain). Normally a
roof truss or framed roof will have cross members that will act in
tension to resist the spread of the base. So even if the apex joint is a
relatively weak nailed one, it all stays together since the apex joint
is only subject to compression rather than rotational moments.

I'm curious since the house I owned in California had a vaulted ceiling
main living-room.

If you want a vaulted ceiling, then you need to deal with the thrust -
either eliminate it or cope with it.

One way is to modify the ceiling structure to eliminate the thrust -
either with some tie beams across (don't need them on every rafter, and
they can be quite high up making an A frame).

You could use a ring frame of some form around the perimeter at the
base. This works well for hipped vaulted ceilings with 4 sloping sides.
The counters the thrust by placing the 4 hip rafters into compression.

Alternatively with a gable wall at each end you can stick a heavy ridge
beam in to transfer the loads from the tops of all the rafters onto the
game walls. The loads from the bottom end of the rafters is then carried
by the side walls.

All those will eliminate the thrust. An alternative is to design the
supporting structure to be able to cope with the outward thrust, such
that it can supply the restraint to the roof's thrust. (so perpendicular
walls, or other buttress arrangements for the side walls)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/11/2014 12:00, John Rumm wrote:

Alternatively with a gable wall at each end you can stick a heavy ridge
beam in to transfer the loads from the tops of all the rafters onto the
game walls. The loads from the bottom end of the rafters is then carried

^^^^
make that "gable"


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2014-11-17, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/11/2014 12:00, John Rumm wrote:

Alternatively with a gable wall at each end you can stick a heavy ridge
beam in to transfer the loads from the tops of all the rafters onto the
game walls. The loads from the bottom end of the rafters is then carried

^^^^
make that "gable"

Oh, I thought you meant where you hang the dartboard.
;-)

You could always try you hand at a flying buttress.Go all gothic

On 17/11/2014 13:09, fred wrote:

You could always try you hand at a flying buttress.Go all gothic

Gothic designed frequently sidestepped the issue with gothic arches,
which transfer all the weight downwards and have little or no sideways
thrust. (unlike the rounder Norman arches that predated them)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 17/11/2014 08:18, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

'kinell, lucky the whole lot did not just splay out at the top and dump
the whole roof into the room under it!

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it
iin place until it bites

Nice recovery...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Would be worth sticking that quick overview into the wiki to go with the
photos. Nicely illustrates what the "floor/ceiling" joists do in
traditional roof framing.

And, for constructional know-nothings like me, it would be useful to
have a brief overview of how things would be done differently, if
there'd been no extension there and one wanted to build what the DIYer
had been trying to convert it to, i.e., an extension with a vaulted
ceiling.

I'm curious since the house I owned in California had a vaulted ceiling
main living-room.


Did it have a missing gable wall:-)?.



--
Adam

On 17/11/2014 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:


I'm trying to picture it, sold it more than 20 years ago. Allegedly it
had been built in the 20s by a property developer for his mistress.
English cottage look to it.

Lathe and plaster everywhere with knob/tube wiring in the walls.

No, the living room had a wall with a gable at the far end, with a loft
behind at the top and bedrooms behind, underneath. Then at the other
end there was a gable built over a set of doors that led to the
entrance hall. I don't think there were any A-frame beams.


Can you remember what the roof was made of? Might it have been covered
with felt tiles - or somesuch - which would have been a lot lighter than
slates or concrete tiles?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 17/11/2014 17:15, Roger Mills wrote:
On 17/11/2014 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:


I'm trying to picture it, sold it more than 20 years ago. Allegedly it
had been built in the 20s by a property developer for his mistress.
English cottage look to it.

Lathe and plaster everywhere with knob/tube wiring in the walls.

No, the living room had a wall with a gable at the far end, with a loft
behind at the top and bedrooms behind, underneath. Then at the other
end there was a gable built over a set of doors that led to the
entrance hall. I don't think there were any A-frame beams.


Can you remember what the roof was made of? Might it have been covered
with felt tiles - or somesuch - which would have been a lot lighter than
slates or concrete tiles?

It might have had steel "V" plates at the apex to discourage the rafters
from flattening.

On 17/11/2014 17:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roger Mills
wrote:

On 17/11/2014 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:


I'm trying to picture it, sold it more than 20 years ago. Allegedly it
had been built in the 20s by a property developer for his mistress.
English cottage look to it.

Lathe and plaster everywhere with knob/tube wiring in the walls.

No, the living room had a wall with a gable at the far end, with a loft
behind at the top and bedrooms behind, underneath. Then at the other
end there was a gable built over a set of doors that led to the
entrance hall. I don't think there were any A-frame beams.

Can you remember what the roof was made of? Might it have been covered
with felt tiles - or somesuch - which would have been a lot lighter
than slates or concrete tiles?

One slope gave into the loft, the other to the outside. The vaulted
ceiling was T&G much like a floor. I think there was tar paper or
similar, and then there were redwood shakes [1] above that. If I'd
lived there much longer I'd have had the roof redone, it's typically
good for 25 years IIRC.

Course that meant no insulation possible for a good chunk of the roof.

[1] Tiles, essentially. But made of redwood.


Yes, I think they were generally called shingles. Would have been much
lighter than 'conventional' tiles, as I suspected.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In message , Tim Streater
writes
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 17/11/2014 08:18, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.
'kinell, lucky the whole lot did not just splay out at the top and
dump the whole roof into the room under it!

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold

iin place until it bites
Nice recovery...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.
Would be worth sticking that quick overview into the wiki to go with
the photos. Nicely illustrates what the "floor/ceiling" joists do in
traditional roof framing.

And, for constructional know-nothings like me, it would be useful to
have a brief overview of how things would be done differently, if
there'd been no extension there and one wanted to build what the DIYer
had been trying to convert it to, i.e., an extension with a vaulted
ceiling.


A couple of flying buttresses and you are sorteed.
--
Chris French

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 17/11/2014 08:18, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

'kinell, lucky the whole lot did not just splay out at the top and dump
the whole roof into the room under it!

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it
iin place until it bites

Nice recovery...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Would be worth sticking that quick overview into the wiki to go with the
photos. Nicely illustrates what the "floor/ceiling" joists do in
traditional roof framing.

And, for constructional know-nothings like me, it would be useful to
have a brief overview of how things would be done differently, if
there'd been no extension there and one wanted to build what the DIYer
had been trying to convert it to, i.e., an extension with a vaulted
ceiling.

I'm curious since the house I owned in California had a vaulted ceiling
main living-room.

The traditional alternative is purlins supporting the rafters.
There may need to be an intermediate truss/other support.

I continue to be amazed how many people managed to stay alive well
into adulthood with a complete inability to perceive the world around
them and notice things like weight at X does stuff to Y, how many
digits their town's telephone numbers have, containers cannot have
additional contents added until existing passengers depart, etc.

jgh

wrote:
I continue to be amazed how many people managed to stay alive well
into adulthood with a complete inability to perceive the world around
them and notice things like weight at X does stuff to Y, how many
digits their town's telephone numbers have, containers cannot have
additional contents added until existing passengers depart, etc.

jgh

I'm sometimes amazed at how many people have a strong awareness of their
own perceived superiority.

Bill

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:18:30 +0000, ARW wrote:

On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

This is a photo of the neighbours house to show you what it looked liked
before he started

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted9.jpg

More photos of the nice works here
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted2.jpg
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted3.jpg

I call someone with an acro

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted4.jpg

Time to fit the new doors - just needs leveling up on the left hand side

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted5.jpg

All levelled up and you can see how much the wall has moved by

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted6.jpg

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it
iin place until it bites

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Enjoy



You haven't yet told us why.



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On Monday, November 17, 2014 8:19:28 AM UTC, ARW wrote:
i.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist and
it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

That has to be DIY save of the year :-)


Enjoy

--
Adam

On 18/11/2014 01:10, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Monday, November 17, 2014 8:19:28 AM UTC, ARW wrote:
i.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist and
it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

That has to be DIY save of the year :-)


Enjoy

--
Adam


If they want it to have a vaulted ceiling then some wire ties to replace
the wood they have hacked out would be easy to fit and sould look better
than bolting some 4x2 timbers back.

On 18/11/2014 15:25, Dennis@home wrote:
On 18/11/2014 01:10, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Monday, November 17, 2014 8:19:28 AM UTC, ARW wrote:
i.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling
joist and
it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

That has to be DIY save of the year :-)


Enjoy

--
Adam


If they want it to have a vaulted ceiling then some wire ties to replace
the wood they have hacked out would be easy to fit and sould look better
than bolting some 4x2 timbers back.

or make a structural truss to hide behind the plastic triangle of the
window. Use that to support a beefed up ridge beam that could be
inserted under the existing ridge, and hung from a metal shoe bolted to
the wall at the other end.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/11/2014 08:18, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted1.jpg

Yep he has removed the ceiling joists and the back wall.

This is a photo of the neighbours house to show you what it looked liked
before he started

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted9.jpg

More photos of the nice works here
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted2.jpg
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted3.jpg

I call someone with an acro

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted4.jpg

Time to fit the new doors - just needs leveling up on the left hand side

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted5.jpg

All levelled up and you can see how much the wall has moved by

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted6.jpg

Use the acro in reverse - just needs a couple of volunters to hold it
iin place until it bites

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted7.jpg

Screw in a few timbers to hold it in place - including a ceiling joist
and it looks OK.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted8.jpg

Dunno what their final solution will be.

Enjoy


Good job it wasn't snowing. Saying that it looks like some migratory H5
carriers would have flattened that if they had visited.

On Monday, November 17, 2014 8:19:28 AM UTC, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

Do you have an (approx) width of the rear extension, and the deflection of the wall in mm?

A structural engineer I know would be interested in this.

Owain

wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 17, 2014 8:19:28 AM UTC, ARW wrote:
On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

Do you have an (approx) width of the rear extension, and the deflection of
the wall in mm?

A structural engineer I know would be interested in this.



The rear extension is about 3m wide. Now the joiner who helped with the
acro's (the one who built the internal studding) says that the tops of the
wall were both about 20mm out (ie both 20mm out) but the RHS wall (facing
from the outside) was not plumb when he built the internal studding and that
the LH wall had moved further. The LH wall had a crack appear at floor
level.

This picture of the LH wall shows (to the best of my ability) how the top
and rear of that wall splayed out more than the rest of the wall.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:026.JPG

--
Adam

On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:43:37 +0000, ARW wrote:

On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

Do you have an (approx) width of the rear extension, and the deflection
of the wall in mm?

A structural engineer I know would be interested in this.

The rear extension is about 3m wide. Now the joiner who helped with the
acro's (the one who built the internal studding) says that the tops of
the wall were both about 20mm out (ie both 20mm out) but the RHS wall
(facing from the outside) was not plumb when he built the internal
studding and that the LH wall had moved further. The LH wall had a crack
appear at floor level.

This picture of the LH wall shows (to the best of my ability) how the
top and rear of that wall splayed out more than the rest of the wall.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:026.JPG

At what stage do you say "Sod this", step well away, and await (or help
along) the inevitable?

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:43:37 +0000, ARW wrote:

On Saturday I arrived at work to discover this at the customers house

Do you have an (approx) width of the rear extension, and the deflection
of the wall in mm?

A structural engineer I know would be interested in this.

The rear extension is about 3m wide. Now the joiner who helped with the
acro's (the one who built the internal studding) says that the tops of
the wall were both about 20mm out (ie both 20mm out) but the RHS wall
(facing from the outside) was not plumb when he built the internal
studding and that the LH wall had moved further. The LH wall had a crack
appear at floor level.

This picture of the LH wall shows (to the best of my ability) how the
top and rear of that wall splayed out more than the rest of the wall.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:026.JPG

At what stage do you say "Sod this", step well away, and await (or help
along) the inevitable?


When they stop paying me:-)

It's not their rash attitude to diy that bothers me - it's their OCD with
socket and spotlight positions.

Sometimes I feel like saying "If you want a socket in position x then just
****ing put an x on the wall where you want it and I will put the socket
there. I do not need or want a lecture on feng shui or your mathematical
calculations on the best position for the socket - however as you are paying
me by the hour I will listen to your ******** before fitting the socket."


--
Adam

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:55:09 PM UTC, ARW wrote:
It's not their rash attitude to diy that bothers me - it's their OCD with
socket and spotlight positions.


Ta for t'other info.

So why have they listed to the 'you're not allowed to DIY electrics' mantra of the PartPee-ophiles but ignored the 'don't make your house fall down' whisper of common sense?

Owain

On 2014-11-19, Adrian wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:43:37 +0000, ARW wrote:

The rear extension is about 3m wide. Now the joiner who helped with the
acro's (the one who built the internal studding) says that the tops of
the wall were both about 20mm out (ie both 20mm out) but the RHS wall
(facing from the outside) was not plumb when he built the internal
studding and that the LH wall had moved further. The LH wall had a crack
appear at floor level.

This picture of the LH wall shows (to the best of my ability) how the
top and rear of that wall splayed out more than the rest of the wall.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:026.JPG

At what stage do you say "Sod this", step well away, and await (or help
along) the inevitable?

*Before* it falls on his head? At least so far...

;-)

On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:18:30 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...:Avaulted5.jpg

That is a remarkable example of prime stupidity.