Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,

I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,

it tripps the tripper,

the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..


...



I missed the bottom step the other night,,

fortunately I was abit rubbery at the time..

...

How much hassle to fix..

??

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,
the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..
..
I missed the bottom step the other night,,
fortunately I was abit rubbery at the time..
..
How much hassle to fix..
??

Call CH installer, explain problem, get em to look/fix. Maybe they will.


NT

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:38:36 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,
the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..
..
I missed the bottom step the other night,,
fortunately I was abit rubbery at the time..
..
How much hassle to fix..
??

Call CH installer, explain problem, get em to look/fix. Maybe they will.


NT

Oh well thanks for your reply..

I did not notice the fault for months..

Wee ( my mother and I) were going through a period
of enforced good intentions at the time from local
services.. I think,, leads to family//

We now have a shower and bendy down support
so tha she can get to get on tha loo..

Its never been used once

Never used once by my mother,,

He mobility was plumiting at the same time as
enforcement of shower she did not want..

I bought an electric chair to lower
her into the bath,,

It was never ever used once,,
i gave it away to charity after the bath had gone.

She was very distressed listening to the plumbers
breaking up her bath..

She was so aware of her things being broken and destroyed..

Today she has some very good carers that could easily
supervise her having a good ol soak inna nice warm warm bath...
With the electric chair that we no longer have..


I have been on a journey of discovery..
of late.

//

Th plumber boy was a football player for annan,,

and his employer was from lockerbie..

Ok ill try the quierie
iff i can find there number

it was a while ago now..

////

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,


MCB or RCD?

My first guess would be the CH fitter has put a neutral in the wrong bus-bar in the CU or borrowed a neutral from somewhere he should not have.

Owain

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:22:14 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,


MCB or RCD?

My first guess would be the CH fitter has put a neutral in the wrong bus-bar in the CU or borrowed a neutral from somewhere he should not have.

Owain

Are you suggesting there might be an easy wiring fix..

plummers do plumming ,,

leckytrician came in too

...

I understand that there is something abpout three way wiring
for two way switches..

I thought maybe it was an earth problem..

...

Ive

Forgotten what little i knew about that simple circuit

...

Is there an easy fix possible,,

...

Mike

My guess is RCD,,

could be wrong thoug..

I never heard of
MCB,,

How do I check

which

??

wrote:

My guess is RCD, could be wrong thoug.
I never heard of MCB, How do I check which ??

Does the trip that opens have a "Test" or "T" button on it or not? If it
does it's an RCD (or MCBO), if not then it's an MCB.

Andy Burns wrote:

Does the trip that opens have a "Test" or "T" button on it or not? If it
does it's an RCD (or MCBO)

It helps not to get your abbreviations muddled, I meant to type RCBO!

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:40:14 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

Does the trip that opens have a "Test" or "T" button on it or not? If it
does it's an RCD (or MCBO)

It helps not to get your abbreviations muddled, I meant to type RCBO!

I hate abbreviation;s also..

Will take your remarks under consideration ..

tomorrow..

If i put a bulb in the upstairs hall
and switch it on

the whole lot goes off..

I thought an earth leak was the cause,,
three way rcd..

But what do i know ,,

ill get back tomorrow

thanks//

Mike//

In article ,
writes:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,

I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,

it tripps the tripper,

the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..

It's common (although it was always wrong) for the landing light,
which is switched from both downstairs and upstairs, to take the
live from one lighting circuit and return the neutral to the other.
That never works when RCD's get fitted.

Are you sure this doesn't coincide with installation of RCD's in
the fuse box? Maybe that was done same time as boiler installed?

If so, you might temporarily get away with a very low power bulb,
such as a 3W LED, but there's no guarantee even this will work,
and it needs to be fixed properly.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 15/11/2014 22:05, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:40:14 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

Does the trip that opens have a "Test" or "T" button on it or not? If it
does it's an RCD (or MCBO)

It helps not to get your abbreviations muddled, I meant to type RCBO!

If i put a bulb in the upstairs hall
and switch it on

the whole lot goes off..

I thought an earth leak was the cause,,

Earth fault would be a possibility.

If the house has what is called a spit load consumer unit (i.e. its
divided into sections where some are controlled directly by the main
switch and others by a RCD), then a "borrowed" or misplaced neutral
would be another possibility.

three way rcd..

Three way? Note sure I follow.

Either way, since its a nice easy to reproduce fault, it will be fairly
quick and easy to find if you are up for a bit of diagnostics...



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:31:30 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:22:14 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,
MCB or RCD?
My first guess would be the CH fitter has put a neutral in the wrong bus-bar in the CU or borrowed a neutral from somewhere he should not have.
Owain
Are you suggesting there might be an easy wiring fix..
plummers do plumming ,,
leckytrician came in too
..
I understand that there is something abpout three way wiring
for two way switches..
I thought maybe it was an earth problem..
..
Ive
Forgotten what little i knew about that simple circuit
..
Is there an easy fix possible,,
..
Mike
My guess is RCD,,
could be wrong thoug..
I never heard of
MCB,,
How do I check
which
??

It is a fairly easy fix, but it needs enough skill to see where its miswired.


NT

/


-show quotedtext -It is a fairly easy fix, but it needs enough skill to see where its miswired./q

Is that an offer to assist?

Jim K

One possibility since you mention a new central hearing system is the installer has inadvertently damaged a cable between the light switch and the lamp in question, maybe the cable is touching a hot pipe or now has a nail through it. Another is that he/she has moved a wire serving some of the lighting within what may be a split load consumer unit to take over a circuit breaker to serve the new heating system (it happens) and has not moved the associated neutral wire. There are endless possibilities but you don't sound familiar enough with electrical systems to be poking about inside the consumer unit, therefore you should get him or his electrician back.

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC,
wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,


MCB or RCD?

My first guess would be the CH fitter has put a neutral in the wrong
bus-bar in the CU or borrowed a neutral from somewhere he should not have.

But if that were so, it would affect every other light fitting on that
circuit too.
I can't think of a rational explanation other than coincidence.
Really need more info.
Does it trip when the ligh is turned on?
Is it the RCD trips or an MCB?
Does it trip at the moment of insertion?

I cannot quite see how fitting central heating can do this. Even if there
was a shorted cable, ie screw through it I'd expect it to happen if there
was a bulb or not

You don't say if its part of a 2 way wired system with the downstairs, but
even if it is, it still seems to be a rather strange fault to have. Nothing
so simple as a bit of bare wire insidt the lamp socket I suppose?
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
wrote in message
...
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,

I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,

it tripps the tripper,

the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..


..



I missed the bottom step the other night,,

fortunately I was abit rubbery at the time..

..

How much hassle to fix..

??

Brian Gaff wrote:

I cannot quite see how fitting central heating can do this. Even if there
was a shorted cable, ie screw through it I'd expect it to happen if there
was a bulb or not

unless the screw hit the switched live?

wrote in message
...
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,

I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,

it tripps the tripper,

the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..


Did the plumber change the fuse box or any parts in it?

--
Adam

Is this a pendent light or one mounted flush to the ceiling?
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
wrote in message
...
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:38:36 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC,
wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,
the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..
..
I missed the bottom step the other night,,
fortunately I was abit rubbery at the time..
..
How much hassle to fix..
??

Call CH installer, explain problem, get em to look/fix. Maybe they will.


NT

Oh well thanks for your reply..

I did not notice the fault for months..

Wee ( my mother and I) were going through a period
of enforced good intentions at the time from local
services.. I think,, leads to family//

We now have a shower and bendy down support
so tha she can get to get on tha loo..

Its never been used once

Never used once by my mother,,

He mobility was plumiting at the same time as
enforcement of shower she did not want..

I bought an electric chair to lower
her into the bath,,

It was never ever used once,,
i gave it away to charity after the bath had gone.

She was very distressed listening to the plumbers
breaking up her bath..

She was so aware of her things being broken and destroyed..

Today she has some very good carers that could easily
supervise her having a good ol soak inna nice warm warm bath...
With the electric chair that we no longer have..


I have been on a journey of discovery..
of late.

//

Th plumber boy was a football player for annan,,

and his employer was from lockerbie..

Ok ill try the quierie
iff i can find there number

it was a while ago now..

////

Just a ramble: I think "Plumbers" are often (if Watchdog is to be believed)
used to do many tasks that they have not been trained to do and may not
have the aptitude for.
Jobs like Tiling, Electrical Work, Boiler Controls are really outside the
scope of a "pipe strangler"

Obviously some can do it and make a good job - but we should probe
"Plumbers" before letting them loose on our homes to ensure they have
credibility in all the aspects of the job they are being asked to do.
Surely it is better for them to sub-contract some stuff (from what I seen)

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:29:59 AM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:31:30 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:22:14 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,
MCB or RCD?
My first guess would be the CH fitter has put a neutral in the wrong bus-bar in the CU or borrowed a neutral from somewhere he should not have.
Owain
Are you suggesting there might be an easy wiring fix..
plummers do plumming ,,
leckytrician came in too
..
I understand that there is something abpout three way wiring
for two way switches..
I thought maybe it was an earth problem..
..
Ive
Forgotten what little i knew about that simple circuit
..
Is there an easy fix possible,,
..
Mike
My guess is RCD,,
could be wrong thoug..
I never heard of
MCB,,
How do I check
which
??

It is a fairly easy fix, but it needs enough skill to see where its miswired.


NT

Well ok,,

I dont know that it is miswired,

There is a new thirty milliamp breaker wired to
an old fashioned fuse box,
in a house that has never been rewired..
forty years,, at least,,


I am looking suspiciously at the old braided
wire hanging from a rather "high" hall ceiling..

My feeling is that breaker will be ok,
that will probably be wired ok
that it is doing its job as it is designed to do.
and that it is quite correctly detecting an earth leakage
in some old wiring ,

I do not put a bulb into the upstairs hall light
because it trips the breaker,,
it does not say RCD but I assume that,
that is what it is,, and rcd..

The installation of central heating caused a
great deal of disturbance around the house..

Also, I have to correct myself,,

I think the rcd was installed subsequent to having
a wet floor shower and fan, the shower is heated from
the boiler..

...

My guess is that fault must lie somewhere in this
circuit

How to convert one way lighting circuit to two way switching

Diagram No.2

http://www.aboutelectricity.co.uk/ar...?article_id=44

http://tinyurl.com/lvmjyo4

...........

did they use the bare earth wire as the third wire
required for two way switching forty odd years ago..

My view is that it will be a hassle to fix if
(as I suspect) it will need a new wire between
the light switches..

The tripper trips when I switch the upstairs
light on,,

Ok i should check the light fittings,
but it is a such a dam awkward spot,
I just took the bulb out,,

Dark nights are hear again and it is getting to be a nuisance..

Hope I have covered all the queries,,

...

if there is any chance the rcd has been wired wrong..

well Im listening,,

//

PS there is a paper tab on top of the rcd
that says ,,,lights and toilet fan,,,

....

The fuse box has fuses for upstairs lights
and downstairs lights,,,

I assume that the upstairs hall light is connected
to the downstairs light circuit..
now there is a thought for an easy fix,,

//
I expect that the old wiring is set in plaster
as it runs down to the switches//

/////

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 11:32:27 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/11/2014 22:05, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:40:14 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

Does the trip that opens have a "Test" or "T" button on it or not? If it
does it's an RCD (or MCBO)

It helps not to get your abbreviations muddled, I meant to type RCBO!

If i put a bulb in the upstairs hall
and switch it on

the whole lot goes off..

I thought an earth leak was the cause,,

Earth fault would be a possibility.

If the house has what is called a spit load consumer unit (i.e. its
divided into sections where some are controlled directly by the main
switch and others by a RCD), then a "borrowed" or misplaced neutral
would be another possibility.

three way rcd..

Three way? Note sure I follow.

Sorry about that ,,
I meant two way switching requiring a third wire,
possibly a bare earth wire in an old circuit..
could the rcd be picking up on that,,?

This circuit,, http://tinyurl.com/lvmjyo4 //

What if one could identify that earth and disconnect it..?

Either way, since its a nice easy to reproduce fault, it will be fairly
quick and easy to find if you are up for a bit of diagnostics...

I assume it is a line leakage, possibly one that has been there
since the house was built..

The light has not been used for a long while now..

I would need to switch my pc off and put a bulb in
to check what happens..

I have a vague memory of having to fix a fuse,
a long while ago, could it have been when a bulb blew,

Yes, the trip box box does have a test button,,
--
Cheers,

John.

Thanks lads,,

Mike.





/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:

There is a new thirty milliamp breaker wired to an old fashioned fuse
box

That sounds like an RCD then, is it possible the lighting fault started
when the RCD was fitted, not when the central heating was fitted? Are
all circuits in the house going through the RCD, or just some of them?

The fuse box has fuses for upstairs lights and downstairs lights I
assume that the upstairs hall light is connected to the downstairs
light circuit.

When people have been referring to 'borrowed neutrals' they mean that
e.g. as in your case the live for the landing light is taken from one
circuit, but the neutral for it is taken from a nearby circuit that is
more convenient, but nevertheless the wrong one - an RCD can "see" this
as a fault.

As others have hinted, I don't think you have the knowledge to fix the
problem, but at least you are in a better position to explain to an
electrician that "the RCD trips when the landing light is used" rather
than "the tripper trips".

If do you feel you need to fix it yourself rather than get someone in,
it's not impossible to learn, but suggest you read through archives here
for safe working, RCDs, two-way switching, borrowed neutrals, and old
house wiring, take photos of everything before you touch it and ask
again regarding what you intend to do ...

Andy Burns wrote:

When people have been referring to 'borrowed neutrals' they mean that
e.g. as in your case the live for the landing light is taken from one
circuit, but the neutral for it is taken from a nearby circuit that is
more convenient, but nevertheless the wrong one

Or rather, this /may/ be the cause of your fault ... too little info to
tell.

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:13:56 PM UTC, wrote:

What if one could identify that earth and disconnect it..?

no

I assume it is a line leakage, possibly one that has been there
since the house was built..

I dont


NT

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:23:38 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

There is a new thirty milliamp breaker wired to an old fashioned fuse
box

That sounds like an RCD then, is it possible the lighting fault started
when the RCD was fitted, not when the central heating was fitted? Are
all circuits in the house going through the RCD, or just some of them?

The fuse box has fuses for upstairs lights and downstairs lights I
assume that the upstairs hall light is connected to the downstairs
light circuit.

When people have been referring to 'borrowed neutrals' they mean that
e.g. as in your case the live for the landing light is taken from one
circuit, but the neutral for it is taken from a nearby circuit that is
more convenient, but nevertheless the wrong one - an RCD can "see" this
as a fault.

As others have hinted, I don't think you have the knowledge to fix the
problem, but at least you are in a better position to explain to an
electrician that "the RCD trips when the landing light is used" rather
than "the tripper trips".

If do you feel you need to fix it yourself rather than get someone in,
it's not impossible to learn, but suggest you read through archives here
for safe working, RCDs, two-way switching, borrowed neutrals, and old
house wiring, take photos of everything before you touch it and ask
again regarding what you intend to do ...

Ok,,


So,, two lighting circuits,,
with the positive feed from the downstairs circuit.

With a borrowed neutral from another circuit,,
Every thing is hunky dory-until i swtch the upstait
hall light on and the rcg takes a hissy fit because he aint connected to that circuit as well...

The Rcd is supposed to be connected to the downstairs
lights and bathroom fan alone,,


Surely, the borrowed negative being used,
will be borrowed from the upstairs light circuit.

Where will an electrician have picked up the
wrong negative,, fusebox or in the loft,,

What if the two lighting circuits were
made common,,?

///

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:12:20 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:13:56 PM UTC, wrote:

What if one could identify that earth and disconnect it..?

no

I assume it is a line leakage, possibly one that has been there
since the house was built..

I dont


NT

It is beginning to sound like a borrowed negative
is the probable fault..


As yet,
One does not know where it has been borrowed from..


///

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 9:11:11 AM UTC, ARW wrote:
wrote in message
...
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,

I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,

it tripps the tripper,

the installation was (of course) carried out during daylight
hours
no one checked what happened when you put the
upstairs hall light on ..


Did the plumber change the fuse box or any parts in it?

--
Adam

Its the same old fuse box,, with two new wires leading down to rcd.


.....

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:50:08 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:29:59 AM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:31:30 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:22:14 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:

There is a new thirty milliamp breaker wired to
an old fashioned fuse box,
in a house that has never been rewired..
forty years,, at least,,

single RCD, either for whole house or a newish circuit


I am looking suspiciously at the old braided
wire hanging from a rather "high" hall ceiling..

sounds like 1950s twisted pair cotton covered rubber. A pic could clarify


I do not put a bulb into the upstairs hall light
because it trips the breaker,,
it does not say RCD but I assume that,
that is what it is,, and rcd..

'30mA' means an RCD


did they use the bare earth wire as the third wire
required for two way switching forty odd years ago..

possible


My view is that it will be a hassle to fix if
(as I suspect) it will need a new wire between
the light switches..

we're a way from knowing yet


if there is any chance the rcd has been wired wrong..
well Im listening,,

PS there is a paper tab on top of the rcd
that says ,,,lights and toilet fan,,,

a clear pic of fusebox area could help


I expect that the old wiring is set in plaster
as it runs down to the switches//

almost certainly. Need to sort out some basic facts first.


NT

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:15:42 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:23:38 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

Ok,,

So,, two lighting circuits,,
with the positive feed from the downstairs circuit.

With a borrowed neutral from another circuit,,
Every thing is hunky dory-until i swtch the upstait
hall light on and the rcg takes a hissy fit because he aint connected to that circuit as well...

Clearly we've no idea if thats the situation or not

The Rcd is supposed to be connected to the downstairs
lights and bathroom fan alone,,


Surely, the borrowed negative being used,
will be borrowed from the upstairs light circuit.

Where will an electrician have picked up the
wrong negative,, fusebox or in the loft,,

What if the two lighting circuits were
made common,,?

What if you stop tripping and help us get some real facts.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:23:38 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

There is a new thirty milliamp breaker wired to an old fashioned fuse
box

That sounds like an RCD then, is it possible the lighting fault started
when the RCD was fitted, not when the central heating was fitted? Are
all circuits in the house going through the RCD, or just some of them?

The fuse box has fuses for upstairs lights and downstairs lights I
assume that the upstairs hall light is connected to the downstairs
light circuit.

When people have been referring to 'borrowed neutrals' they mean that
e.g. as in your case the live for the landing light is taken from one
circuit, but the neutral for it is taken from a nearby circuit that is
more convenient, but nevertheless the wrong one - an RCD can "see" this
as a fault.

As others have hinted, I don't think you have the knowledge to fix the
problem, but at least you are in a better position to explain to an
electrician that "the RCD trips when the landing light is used" rather
than "the tripper trips".

If do you feel you need to fix it yourself rather than get someone in,
it's not impossible to learn, but suggest you read through archives here
for safe working, RCDs, two-way switching, borrowed neutrals, and old
house wiring, take photos of everything before you touch it and ask
again regarding what you intend to do ...

Ok,,


So,, two lighting circuits,,
with the positive feed from the downstairs circuit.

With a borrowed neutral from another circuit,,
Every thing is hunky dory-until i swtch the upstait
hall light on and the rcg takes a hissy fit because he aint connected to
that circuit as well...

The Rcd is supposed to be connected to the downstairs
lights and bathroom fan alone,,


Surely, the borrowed negative being used,
will be borrowed from the upstairs light circuit.

Where will an electrician have picked up the
wrong negative,, fusebox or in the loft,,





What if the two lighting circuits were
made common,,?

Then you solve the problem.


--
Adam

On 16/11/2014 16:21, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:12:20 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:13:56 PM UTC, wrote:

What if one could identify that earth and disconnect it..?

no

I assume it is a line leakage, possibly one that has been there
since the house was built..

I dont


NT

It is beginning to sound like a borrowed negative
is the probable fault..


As yet,
One does not know where it has been borrowed from..

Before we go too much further, could you tell us if our consumer unit is
a split load one:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...#Split_Load_CU

or if recently fitted, then it might be one of:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...er ent_Setups



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15/11/2014 21:22, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:
Ever since the new central heating system was installed,,
I cannot place a light bulb into the upstairs hall light,,
it tripps the tripper,


MCB or RCD?

My first guess would be the CH fitter has put a neutral in the wrong bus-bar in the CU or borrowed a neutral from somewhere he should not have.

Owain


+1
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 16/11/2014 16:21, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:12:20 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:13:56 PM UTC, wrote:

What if one could identify that earth and disconnect it..?

no

I assume it is a line leakage, possibly one that has been there
since the house was built..

I dont


NT

It is beginning to sound like a borrowed negative
is the probable fault..


As yet,
One does not know where it has been borrowed from..

Before we go too much further, could you tell us if our consumer unit
is a split load one:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...#Split_Load_CU

or if recently fitted, then it might be one of:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...sumer_Units#Di
fferent_Setups



I don't think it's either John. The OP says that just the bathroom fan
and downstairs lights are on it - so I think it is a standalone unit

--
Chris French

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:02:43 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2014 16:21, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:12:20 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 1:13:56 PM UTC, wrote:

What if one could identify that earth and disconnect it..?

no

I assume it is a line leakage, possibly one that has been there
since the house was built..

I dont


NT

It is beginning to sound like a borrowed negative
is the probable fault..


As yet,
One does not know where it has been borrowed from..

Before we go too much further, could you tell us if our consumer unit is
a split load one:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...#Split_Load_CU

or if recently fitted, then it might be one of:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...er ent_Setups



--
Cheers,

John.


Well,, was just working on that for meow,,

here are the units,,


an eight fuse version of this

Old Wylex fuse box..

///

http://tinyurl.com/kl3nqtw

.....


With a fused RCD spur for the downstairs bathroom fan and lights.

same as this one..

Power Breaker H92WP-C

White RCD Fused Spur unit,


http://innovateelectricalsupplies.co...sed-spur-unit/

http://tinyurl.com/q4u368d

////

When I switch the upstairs hall light on, the breaker trips
which puts the downstair lights off and the fan in bathroom...

This only happens when there is a bulb in the holder,,

Certainly, there could be some old wiring that needs replacing
as in old style braided dropper wires,or maybe the plumber damaged
some wiring,,

I favour the borrowed negative theory at this time.
So far, ive had a wee look in the light switches for clues,
downstairs double switch live feed jumped over from downstairs hall light

Ive not located negative connection yet..

I suspect, probably from the upstairs light circuit..

...
Im considering this
Proposed action,

temporarily disconnect negative from upstairs
light circuit at the fuse box.

Switch the light on and see what happens..
Obviously,, I would not expect the light to come on,
but if the tripper did not go off..

Would that not indicate that the borrowed negative
had been identified'' ?

I lost my meter along with my home..

trying to live without my meter..

//

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:39:59 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:50:08 PM UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:29:59 AM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:31:30 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:22:14 PM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 15, 2014 8:36:35 PM UTC, wrote:

There is a new thirty milliamp breaker wired to
an old fashioned fuse box,
in a house that has never been rewired..
forty years,, at least,,

single RCD, either for whole house or a newish circuit


I am looking suspiciously at the old braided
wire hanging from a rather "high" hall ceiling..

sounds like 1950s twisted pair cotton covered rubber. A pic could clarify


I do not put a bulb into the upstairs hall light
because it trips the breaker,,
it does not say RCD but I assume that,
that is what it is,, and rcd..

'30mA' means an RCD


did they use the bare earth wire as the third wire
required for two way switching forty odd years ago..

possible


My view is that it will be a hassle to fix if
(as I suspect) it will need a new wire between
the light switches..

we're a way from knowing yet


if there is any chance the rcd has been wired wrong..
well Im listening,,

PS there is a paper tab on top of the rcd
that says ,,,lights and toilet fan,,,

a clear pic of fusebox area could help


I expect that the old wiring is set in plaster
as it runs down to the switches//

almost certainly. Need to sort out some basic facts first.


NT

A white RCD fused spur has been fitted to serve the bathroom fan
and light,,

Very much like this

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:43:47 PM UTC, nuther
didint post link,,

A white RCD fused spur has been fitted to serve the bathroom fan
and light,,

Very much like this


http://innovateelectricalsupplies.co...sed-spur-unit/

////

To reach the ceiling rose and replace the old fittings
and wires, would require a plank over the staircase
onto a pair of steps, with no parachute..!
it certainly needs doing, but it might not fix the problem..

The jobs I used to do,,

Some off my stuff

here

http://tinyurl.com/pp9ylw9

////

On 16/11/2014 18:43, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:02:43 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2014 16:21, wrote:



When I switch the upstairs hall light on, the breaker trips
which puts the downstair lights off and the fan in bathroom...

This only happens when there is a bulb in the holder,,

ok I think I can see a plausible mechanism...

There was previously two lighting circuits each with its own fuse, and
no RCD.

When the shower fan etc was installed it needed RCD protection, and
since it was to be powered form the downstairs lighting circuit (as is
common with fans that need triggering from the lighswitch), they had to
install a RCD spur, and connect the whole lighting circuit to it. So far
so good, it means the fan and the downstairs lights are now all RCD
protected.

However, the downstairs lighting circuit also feeds a lamp upstairs, and
alas the neutral connected to the same lamp returns directly to the fuse
box without going through the RCD. So the moment the light turns on (and
there is a bulb in there). the live connection to it comes via the
downstairs circuit and hence the RCD, and the neutral was probably
connected to the upstairs lighting circuit that is not connected via the
RCD. Hence the RCD sees and imbalance. and does what it is designed to
do and trips.

Certainly, there could be some old wiring that needs replacing
as in old style braided dropper wires,or maybe the plumber damaged
some wiring,,

I favour the borrowed negative theory at this time.
So far, ive had a wee look in the light switches for clues,
downstairs double switch live feed jumped over from downstairs hall light

Ive not located negative connection yet..

It won't be visible at the switch - that normally only has live and
switched live. However if there is only one live in (and the jumper wire
is a big clue) then it suggests the live from one circuit only is being
connected to both switches.


I suspect, probably from the upstairs light circuit..

..
Im considering this
Proposed action,

temporarily disconnect negative from upstairs
light circuit at the fuse box.

Switch the light on and see what happens..
Obviously,, I would not expect the light to come on,
but if the tripper did not go off..

Correct.

Would that not indicate that the borrowed negative
had been identified'' ?

Indeed.

I lost my meter along with my home..

trying to live without my meter..

Multimeters can be had for under a tenner.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 8:34:21 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2014 18:43, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:02:43 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2014 16:21, wrote:



When I switch the upstairs hall light on, the breaker trips
which puts the downstair lights off and the fan in bathroom...

This only happens when there is a bulb in the holder,,

ok I think I can see a plausible mechanism...

There was previously two lighting circuits each with its own fuse, and
no RCD.

When the shower fan etc was installed it needed RCD protection, and
since it was to be powered form the downstairs lighting circuit (as is
common with fans that need triggering from the lighswitch), they had to
install a RCD spur, and connect the whole lighting circuit to it. So far
so good, it means the fan and the downstairs lights are now all RCD
protected.

However, the downstairs lighting circuit also feeds a lamp upstairs, and
alas the neutral connected to the same lamp returns directly to the fuse
box without going through the RCD. So the moment the light turns on (and
there is a bulb in there). the live connection to it comes via the
downstairs circuit and hence the RCD, and the neutral was probably
connected to the upstairs lighting circuit that is not connected via the
RCD. Hence the RCD sees and imbalance. and does what it is designed to
do and trips.

Certainly, there could be some old wiring that needs replacing
as in old style braided dropper wires,or maybe the plumber damaged
some wiring,,

I favour the borrowed negative theory at this time.
So far, ive had a wee look in the light switches for clues,
downstairs double switch live feed jumped over from downstairs hall light

Ive not located negative connection yet..

It won't be visible at the switch - that normally only has live and
switched live. However if there is only one live in (and the jumper wire
is a big clue) then it suggests the live from one circuit only is being
connected to both switches.


I suspect, probably from the upstairs light circuit..

..
Im considering this
Proposed action,

temporarily disconnect negative from upstairs
light circuit at the fuse box.

Switch the light on and see what happens..
Obviously,, I would not expect the light to come on,
but if the tripper did not go off..

Correct.

Would that not indicate that the borrowed negative
had been identified'' ?

Indeed.

I lost my meter along with my home..

trying to live without my meter..

Multimeters can be had for under a tenner.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Eureka..

O what fun,,

Mike..

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 8:34:21 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2014 18:43, wrote:
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:02:43 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/11/2014 16:21, wrote:

ok I think I can see a plausible mechanism...

There was previously two lighting circuits each with its own fuse, and
no RCD.

When the shower fan etc was installed it needed RCD protection, and
since it was to be powered form the downstairs lighting circuit (as is
common with fans that need triggering from the lighswitch), they had to
install a RCD spur, and connect the whole lighting circuit to it. So far
so good, it means the fan and the downstairs lights are now all RCD
protected.

However, the downstairs lighting circuit also feeds a lamp upstairs, and
alas the neutral connected to the same lamp returns directly to the fuse
box without going through the RCD. So the moment the light turns on (and
there is a bulb in there). the live connection to it comes via the
downstairs circuit and hence the RCD, and the neutral was probably
connected to the upstairs lighting circuit that is not connected via the
RCD. Hence the RCD sees and imbalance. and does what it is designed to
do and trips.

Quite possible. Also possible the RCD actually feeds the fusebox and the 1950s wiring is kaput. We're not going to know until the OP gives us the requested info.


NT

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:15:42 PM UTC, wrote:

Ok,,
So,, two lighting circuits,,
with the positive feed from the downstairs circuit.
With a borrowed neutral from another circuit,,
Every thing is hunky dory-until i swtch the upstait
hall light on and the rcg takes a hissy fit because he aint connected to that circuit as well...
The Rcd is supposed to be connected to the downstairs
lights and bathroom fan alone,,
Surely, the borrowed negative being used,
will be borrowed from the upstairs light circuit.
Where will an electrician have picked up the
wrong negative,, fusebox or in the loft,,
What if the two lighting circuits were
made common,,?


If it is a borrowed neutral problem (from a 2nd lighting circuit), putting both lighting ccts onto the RCDed feed would solve it. If its not a 5/6/10A circuit you'd also need a fuse for it.


NT