I'm currently installing the fixed wiring for our AV setup in the living
room. I need to run mains cabling for the sockets as well as CAT5E cable
for the Tivo box/smart TV; basically these both need to run to exactly the
same location and the easiest solution would be to run them literally side
by side, which in various places would be either under the floor, buried
under capping below plaster, or in surface-mounted trunking.

I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?

Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Thanks!

--
David

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain

On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 30/08/2014 12:59, Lobster wrote:
I'm currently installing the fixed wiring for our AV setup in the living
room. I need to run mains cabling for the sockets as well as CAT5E cable
for the Tivo box/smart TV; basically these both need to run to exactly the
same location and the easiest solution would be to run them literally side
by side, which in various places would be either under the floor, buried
under capping below plaster, or in surface-mounted trunking.

I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?

Crossing at right angles is less of a problem. Ideally keep them 50mm
apart.

Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Unlikely to be a problem with ethernet, but may be one if using the same
cables for analogue voice (i.e. phone) where you can pickup mains hum.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30 Aug 2014, The Natural Philosopher grunted:

On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference
to consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to
240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that
LV and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

That's great; thanks all for the super-prompt response.
I'll plan accordingly!

--
David

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or with
a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It might
be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

50mm/2" is the figure I have in my mind for the required separation
when there is no mechanical barrier.

--
Chris Green
·

On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).

On 30/08/14 14:23, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or with
a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It might
be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

50mm/2" is the figure I have in my mind for the required separation
when there is no mechanical barrier.

arbitrary, but pretty much correct I'd say.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


--
Tony Sayer

On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V
on your ethernet.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference
to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to
240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that
LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V on
your ethernet.


You get 230V now:-)

--
Adam

In article ,
"ARW" writes:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference
to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to
240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that
LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V on
your ethernet.


You get 230V now:-)

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 8:59:08 PM UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!

Possibly ones from ebay don't...

Owain

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 6:36:30 PM UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:

Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...

....until somebody installs a lighting dimmer. I have a ceiling to light switch conduit containing lighting wiring and a phone cable (installed by a previous house owner). No problems until dimmer switch was added. Then the interference on the phone became unacceptably loud. The wiring has now been re-routed.

I have never seen problems with ethernet close to mains wiring.

John

In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to 240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V
on your ethernet.


And has anyone ever had that happen at all?..

Insulation on the mains cables insulation on the ethernet cables?..





--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
scribeth thus
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 6:36:30 PM UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:

Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...

...until somebody installs a lighting dimmer. I have a ceiling to light switch
conduit containing lighting wiring and a phone cable (installed by a previous
house owner). No problems until dimmer switch was added. Then the interference
on the phone became unacceptably loud. The wiring has now been re-routed.

I have never seen problems with ethernet close to mains wiring.

John

And I doubt you will either its balanced line working which confers a
very high level of immunity to interferer's..

--
Tony Sayer

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding
interference to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to
240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure
that LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V
on your ethernet.




That's not a problem for long!

On 31/08/14 20:59, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"ARW" writes:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference
to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to
240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that
LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V on
your ethernet.


You get 230V now:-)

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!


I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg

Nope. No transformers anywhere.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 31/08/14 21:45, wrote:
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 8:59:08 PM UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!

Possibly ones from ebay don't...

I have never seen a network card WITH a transforner, and I must have
sold tens of thousands in my time

Owain



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 31/08/14 21:57, tony sayer wrote:
That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V
on your ethernet.

And has anyone ever had that happen at all?..

Shows how good the regulations are dunnit?


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers

I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg

The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays

Andy Burns wrote:

The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays

Oops, this would help ...

http://google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=magjack

On 01/09/14 07:32, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers

I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg


The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays

No they are not.

I have wired up DOZENS of CAT5 sockets.

And overseen huge office structured cabling projects.

How on earth do you think that HF transformers are going to cope with
e.g. power over Ethernet, or telephone lines, or indeed serial data
being sent over structured wiring?

Structured wiring is plain simple point to pint wiring. End of.

I dont know where you got the notion that it was otherwise at all.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 01/09/14 07:36, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays

Oops, this would help ...

http://google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=magjack



That's late 100base or gigabit ethernet only.

Rather a different animal.




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 01/09/14 07:32, Andy Burns wrote:

The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays

No they are not.
I have wired up DOZENS of CAT5 sockets.

The socket on the NIC!

And in the earlier generation NICs, did you ever notice the rather tall
DIP packages near the socket, often manufactured by "Bel"?

Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V on
your ethernet.


You get 230V now:-)

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!


I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...ile:Intel_Pro-
100_82558_PCI_NIC.jpg

Nope. No transformers anywhere.



What's that device close to the input socket, opto-coupler perhaps?.

I'm minded to take an old one apart to find out....

--
Tony Sayer

In article , The Natural Philosopher
scribeth thus
On 31/08/14 21:57, tony sayer wrote:
That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V
on your ethernet.

And has anyone ever had that happen at all?..

Shows how good the regulations are dunnit?



And the ones where the regs aren't adhered to that well;?...
--
Tony Sayer

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays
http://google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=magjack

That's late 100base or gigabit ethernet only.

And before someone figured out they could miniaturise the transformers
sufficiently to squeeze them inside the socket, you'd typically see a
rather fat IC right next to it, containing them

eg. top left of a 3C905

http://www.geocities.jp/yamanote135/pict/3c905tx.jpg

On 01/09/14 08:16, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 01/09/14 07:32, Andy Burns wrote:

The magnetics are generally *in* the socket nowadays

No they are not.
I have wired up DOZENS of CAT5 sockets.

The socket on the NIC!

And in the earlier generation NICs, did you ever notice the rather tall
DIP packages near the socket, often manufactured by "Bel"?


Ok, I'll take that back. It does seem that micro transformers are part
of 802.3 spec.

HOWEVER that is actually a tad irrelevant to the thing we were discussing.

Which was the presence of 230V or whatever on the actual structured
wiring. And the chance for an RJ45 plugged into it to give you a nasty
shock.

The thinking goes this way.

Low voltage cabling has relaxed standards of conductor accessibility by
human flesh.

High voltage cabling goes to extrenme lengths to prevent this. T

Therefore any chance of high voltage appearing on low voltage should be
reduced to a vanishingly small value, and earth leakage trips be used as
a secondary line of defence.

And as with nuclear, the regulations are ALARA not AHRAS in spirit. The
risk is set to as low as reasonably achievable, not to as high as
reasonably safe.

It's no great shakes when extruding cable trunking to have an HV and an
LV section.

And its quite clear from the fact that gadzillions of done to a price
structured cabling setups actually break the rules, that its normally
way too onerous.

--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Monday, 1 September 2014 07:30:34 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!

I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg

Nope. No transformers anywhere.


Well, actually there are isolating transformers on that
network card. They are encapsulated in the package
marked Bel S558-5999-46. The data sheet can be found
on the belfuse.com website.

John

On 01/09/14 08:20, tony sayer wrote:

Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V on
your ethernet.


You get 230V now:-)

Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!


I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...ile:Intel_Pro-
100_82558_PCI_NIC.jpg

Nope. No transformers anywhere.



What's that device close to the input socket, opto-coupler perhaps?.

I'm minded to take an old one apart to find out....

I've already grovelled and admitted that upon research I discovered
ethernet 10baset and up DOES have micro transformers in it.. ;-)

But not in the house WIRING.

And I never claimed ever that interference was an issue. Its a safety thing.

HV is HV and LV is LV and never the twain shall meet, is the ideology.

Which can be rather fun in the high power audio where 80VAC is a
reasonable voltage level to drive a PA loudspeaker with..representing
1KW into an 8 ohm load..

I've had quite big shocks off loudspeaker terminals.




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ok, I'll take that back.
HOWEVER that is actually a tad irrelevant to the thing we were discussing.
Which was the presence of 230V or whatever on the actual structured
wiring. And the chance for an RJ45 plugged into it to give you a nasty
shock.

Well, I think there were two aspects, one that the 230V might zap your
kit which the transformers take care of, the other that it might zap
someone, for the latter I suppose an 'RJ45' plug offers at best IP30
protection, and not much of a spark-gap, what is it 1Kv/mm?

gadzillions of done to a price
structured cabling setups actually break the rules, that its normally
way too onerous.

Yep, plenty of suspended ceilings are a rat's nest of lighting, data
phone, PA, alarm cables. Even cable trays that end up carrying hundreds
more cables than someone expected when they were fitted back in the day
of token ring or coax ethernet.

On 01/09/14 08:46, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ok, I'll take that back.
HOWEVER that is actually a tad irrelevant to the thing we were
discussing.
Which was the presence of 230V or whatever on the actual structured
wiring. And the chance for an RJ45 plugged into it to give you a nasty
shock.

Well, I think there were two aspects, one that the 230V might zap your
kit which the transformers take care of, the other that it might zap
someone, for the latter I suppose an 'RJ45' plug offers at best IP30
protection, and not much of a spark-gap, what is it 1Kv/mm?

gadzillions of done to a price
structured cabling setups actually break the rules, that its normally
way too onerous.

Yep, plenty of suspended ceilings are a rat's nest of lighting, data
phone, PA, alarm cables. Even cable trays that end up carrying hundreds
more cables than someone expected when they were fitted back in the day
of token ring or coax ethernet.


Indeed. I lifted the floor in a corridor in Telehouse..to lay some CAT 5
to an ISP from our kit.

There had been trunking and trays, long ago, but the amount of wire in
there had totally overflowed the capability of the system to accomodate it.

And precious little of it was LSOH either.

However, in a sense, people don't actually work in Telehouse. Only machines.

I think we only made a couple of visits in several years of using it.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 01/09/14 07:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg


Nope. No transformers anywhere.


Yes there definitely are - in that case they'll be built into the socket:

Something like:

http://uk.mouser.com/new/molex/molexRJ45jacks/

On 01/09/14 07:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/08/14 21:45, wrote:
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 8:59:08 PM UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!

Possibly ones from ebay don't...

I have never seen a network card WITH a transforner, and I must have
sold tens of thousands in my time


Please see my reply to TNP - they'll be using a jack with inbuilt
magnetics. Most do now - but they all will still have transformers one
way or another.

Tim Watts wrote:
On 01/09/14 07:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg



Nope. No transformers anywhere.


Yes there definitely are - in that case they'll be built into the socket:

Something like:

http://uk.mouser.com/new/molex/molexRJ45jacks/


None of my jacks have magnetics in. Whether the source and receiver are
transformer coupled I don't know.

On 01/09/2014 09:24, Tim Watts wrote:
On 01/09/14 07:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/08/14 21:45, wrote:
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 8:59:08 PM UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Ethernet has 4000V isolating transformers at each end of a segment
to protect it from that!

Possibly ones from ebay don't...

I have never seen a network card WITH a transforner, and I must have
sold tens of thousands in my time


Please see my reply to TNP - they'll be using a jack with inbuilt
magnetics. Most do now - but they all will still have transformers one
way or another.

yup, and quite often opto isolators as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 01/09/2014 11:36, Capitol wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 01/09/14 07:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I am not so sure that it does mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Et...58_PCI_NIC.jpg




Nope. No transformers anywhere.


Yes there definitely are - in that case they'll be built into the socket:

Something like:

http://uk.mouser.com/new/molex/molexRJ45jacks/


None of my jacks have magnetics in. Whether the source and receiver
are transformer coupled I don't know.

You can buy sockets with and without still... IIRc there was a delay in
the release of the first Raspeberry pi when they realised the wrong
socket had been fitted to the initial batch.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 20:31:57 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 31/08/14 18:36, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 30/08/14 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/08/14 13:10, wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:59:13 PM UTC+1, Lobster wrote:
I'm fairly sure there needs to be some space between them from a
safety/regs point of view - right? how much? Is it OK if they cross
over
if not run actually in parallel to each other?
Separate to the regs issue, are there issues regarding interference
to
consider, too?

Mains and ethernet should be run in separate trunking/enclosure or
with a separating divider unless the ethernet cable is insulated to
240V.

Interference is unlikely to be an issue with Cat 5 and ethernet. It
might be with Cat 6 (gigabit) ethernet, or with analogue audio/video.

Owain



+1.

In the absence of a physical insulation separator, there is IIRC a
minimum DISTANCE, but the thrust of the regulations is to ensure that
LV
and HV cabling do not touch rub and chafe in the same conduit.

I would keep then notionally apart (not in the same trunking or pulled
through the same (tight) holes.

However, if they do accidentally lay side by side somewhere or cross
over or touch it is a complete non issue.

Look in any office false ceiling or under any computer room false floor
to see how little it matters in the ordinary case (notwithstanding
specialist sites like hospitals).


Seen CAT 5 and 6 plus phone and co-ax and audio and mains cables all
intertwined with each other and all working fine...


Oh it WORKS fine!

That was never the problem. The problem is a short so that you get 240V on
your ethernet.


You get 230V now:-)

Nope! It's still 240v. :-)
--
J B Good

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

You can buy sockets with and without still... IIRc there was a delay in
the release of the first Raspeberry pi when they realised the wrong
socket had been fitted to the initial batch.


Yep

http://www.raspberrypi.org/manufacturing-hiccup/

We have a recently refurbed datacentre (within 5 years or so) and the room
was completely gutted. While power is largely one side, and network the other
there is huge amounts of them running together. All cat6.

Given cable management arms on many servers force you to run cables together
it clearly isn't an issue :-) Most of our servers have at least 4 UTP, 2
fibre and 2 240V cables bound together in the cable arms.

Darren