A useless ****

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...57442/Coroner-
warns-against-DIY-after-girl-2-is-killed-by-fireplace.html

"...Toddler killed as fireplace bought on eBay and glued to the wall by
her father collapses on top of her..."

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:06:42 PM UTC+1, Jabba wrote:
Coroner Jacqueline Lake said
''I make no criticism of Mr Coward - he was trying to make his home look nice and was unaware of the dangers he was facing.''

I'm sorry for his loss, but how thick do you have to be to not understand that a combination of (a) stone fireplace (b) small child requires (c) rawlbolts.

Admittedly one of my cupboards fell over earlier but I don't have a small child and it was only leaning against the wall temporarily.

Owain

Yes, the tendency to believe no nails is really good for everyting is
strange.
Glue is also going to soften with heat.

You do have to be quite thick though to not even do back of the envelope
maths o n such things as this.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:06:42 PM UTC+1, Jabba wrote:
Coroner Jacqueline Lake said
''I make no criticism of Mr Coward - he was trying to make his home look
nice and was unaware of the dangers he was facing.''

I'm sorry for his loss, but how thick do you have to be to not understand
that a combination of (a) stone fireplace (b) small child requires (c)
rawlbolts.

Admittedly one of my cupboards fell over earlier but I don't have a small
child and it was only leaning against the wall temporarily.

Owain

A useless ****

Are you referring to the father or the coroner? "Coroner calls for
more regulation to reduce risk without any regard to the practicalities,
costs and benefits" is non-news on a par with "dog bites man". But
they seem to feel they must do their bit to maintain the UK's
world-beating achievements in irrational risk-aversion.


--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

In article , Brian Gaff
wrote:
Yes, the tendency to believe no nails is really good for
everyting is strange. Glue is also going to soften with
heat.

You do have to be quite thick though to not even do back
of the envelope maths o n such things as this. Brian

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:06:42 PM UTC+1, Jabba
wrote: Coroner Jacqueline Lake said ''I make no
criticism of Mr Coward - he was trying to make his home
look nice and was unaware of the dangers he was
facing.''

I'm sorry for his loss, but how thick do you have to be
to not understand that a combination of (a) stone
fireplace (b) small child requires (c) rawlbolts.

Admittedly one of my cupboards fell over earlier but I
don't have a small child and it was only leaning
against the wall temporarily.

Reminds me of two incidents in Burnley 2012 and 2013 -ish
where toddlers have been killed by falling television sets.

In the most recent case Natalie McMillan was cleared of
manslaughter but got a 4 month sentence for neglect.

She said that she was trying to plug a TV recorder into the
set when it toppled over. She was under the influence of
drugs and her partner was also (he was unconscious on the
kitchen floor at the time)

It's difficult trying not to be judgemental in cases like
this. Perhaps thinking that the child is better off.

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list

On 27/08/2014 10:09, JTM wrote:
In article , Brian Gaff
wrote:
Yes, the tendency to believe no nails is really good for
everyting is strange. Glue is also going to soften with
heat.

You do have to be quite thick though to not even do back
of the envelope maths o n such things as this. Brian

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:06:42 PM UTC+1, Jabba
wrote: Coroner Jacqueline Lake said ''I make no
criticism of Mr Coward - he was trying to make his home
look nice and was unaware of the dangers he was
facing.''

I'm sorry for his loss, but how thick do you have to be
to not understand that a combination of (a) stone
fireplace (b) small child requires (c) rawlbolts.

Admittedly one of my cupboards fell over earlier but I
don't have a small child and it was only leaning
against the wall temporarily.

Reminds me of two incidents in Burnley 2012 and 2013 -ish
where toddlers have been killed by falling television sets.

In the most recent case Natalie McMillan was cleared of
manslaughter but got a 4 month sentence for neglect.

She said that she was trying to plug a TV recorder into the
set when it toppled over. She was under the influence of
drugs and her partner was also (he was unconscious on the
kitchen floor at the time)

It's difficult trying not to be judgemental in cases like
this. Perhaps thinking that the child is better off.


Poor *******. He has to live with that. Not sure I could

On 26/08/2014 23:06, Jabba wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...57442/Coroner-
warns-against-DIY-after-girl-2-is-killed-by-fireplace.html

Sorry for the blameless little girl.

"...should be approached by somebody with some knowledge of safe
installation" ‰* "not a suitable DIY project".

Mind you isn't a new fireplace notifiable anyway?

Suppose it is if the definition of DIY is put a couple of shelves up and
put a new plug on the toaster.

On 27/08/2014 14:12, soup wrote:
On 26/08/2014 23:06, Jabba wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...57442/Coroner-
warns-against-DIY-after-girl-2-is-killed-by-fireplace.html

Sorry for the blameless little girl.

"...should be approached by somebody with some knowledge of safe
installation" ‰* "not a suitable DIY project".

Mind you isn't a new fireplace notifiable anyway?

Suppose it is if the definition of DIY is put a couple of shelves up and
put a new plug on the toaster.

And if you put 60 books on the shelf and it falls on a toddler?

Anything is not a DIY project if you don't know how to do it, or how to
find out how.

Some fireplace surrounds tell you to glue them but are still heavy
enough to kill if they fall.

On 27/08/2014 15:28, Dennis@home wrote:

And if you put 60 books on the shelf and it falls on a toddler?

At least a shelf will be screwed to the wall.
Mind you I imagine that some moron will try gluing it to the wallpaper.


Anything is not a DIY project if you don't know how to do it, or how to
find out how.

Surely everyone knows to Google to get a general idea of gotchas?
He apparently was aware that it wasn't a 'straightforward' job as he
(paraphrased) used more glue than recommended as he wanted to make it
'solid'.

Some fireplace surrounds tell you to glue them but are still heavy
enough to kill if they fall.
Individual parts will be adhered to each other but the unit as a whole
(depending on circumstances) will be secured to the wall.

On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:39:21 PM UTC+1, soup wrote:
On 27/08/2014 15:28, Dennis@home wrote:



And if you put 60 books on the shelf and it falls on a toddler?



At least a shelf will be screwed to the wall.

Mind you I imagine that some moron will try gluing it to the wallpaper.





Anything is not a DIY project if you don't know how to do it, or how to

find out how.



Surely everyone knows to Google to get a general idea of gotchas?

He apparently was aware that it wasn't a 'straightforward' job as he

(paraphrased) used more glue than recommended as he wanted to make it

'solid'.


It may be that the glue held but the plaster it was stuck to came away.
Simon.

On 27/08/14 14:12, soup wrote:
On 26/08/2014 23:06, Jabba wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...57442/Coroner-
warns-against-DIY-after-girl-2-is-killed-by-fireplace.html

Sorry for the blameless little girl.

"...should be approached by somebody with some knowledge of safe
installation" ‰* "not a suitable DIY project".

Mind you isn't a new fireplace notifiable anyway?


A fire installation is.

But not a fire surround.

Suppose it is if the definition of DIY is put a couple of shelves up and
put a new plug on the toaster.

I agree with you and not with the coroner. Your "shelves" could be
holding 25kg of heavy crockery and cast iron cookware and could also
fall off killing a toddler.

It's nothing to do with DIY per-se - it's a horrible accident that might
be more avoidable if people were *more* exposed to DIY and the right way
to do things.

In the 70's there would have been no such glue such as Stixall or
"Sticks Like Sh*t" so it probably would never have occured to anyone to
try glueing it in place.

On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 4:22:08 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/08/14 14:12, soup wrote:
On 26/08/2014 23:06, Jabba wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...57442/Coroner-
warns-against-DIY-after-girl-2-is-killed-by-fireplace.html

Sorry for the blameless little girl.

"...should be approached by somebody with some knowledge of safe
installation" ‰* "not a suitable DIY project".

snip

Suppose it is if the definition of DIY is put a couple of shelves up and
put a new plug on the toaster.

I agree with you and not with the coroner. Your "shelves" could be
holding 25kg of heavy crockery and cast iron cookware and could also
fall off killing a toddler.
It's nothing to do with DIY per-se - it's a horrible accident that might
be more avoidable if people were *more* exposed to DIY and the right way
to do things.
In the 70's there would have been no such glue such as Stixall or
"Sticks Like Sh*t" so it probably would never have occured to anyone to
try glueing it in place.

Of course they did, with tile adhesive.

IME with pros, plenty are every bit as incompetent or lacking in care, and a stone fireplace glued up wouldnt surprise me in the least. Pros love no more nails far more than I do. To blame the accident on diy is a bit silly - just another bid for more dumb government control.


NT

On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 7:20:13 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 4:22:08 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:

On 27/08/14 14:12, soup wrote:

On 26/08/2014 23:06, Jabba wrote:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...57442/Coroner-

warns-against-DIY-after-girl-2-is-killed-by-fireplace.html



Sorry for the blameless little girl.



"...should be approached by somebody with some knowledge of safe

installation" ‰* "not a suitable DIY project".



snip



Suppose it is if the definition of DIY is put a couple of shelves up and

put a new plug on the toaster.



I agree with you and not with the coroner. Your "shelves" could be

holding 25kg of heavy crockery and cast iron cookware and could also

fall off killing a toddler.

It's nothing to do with DIY per-se - it's a horrible accident that might

be more avoidable if people were *more* exposed to DIY and the right way

to do things.

In the 70's there would have been no such glue such as Stixall or

"Sticks Like Sh*t" so it probably would never have occured to anyone to

try glueing it in place.



Of course they did, with tile adhesive.



IME with pros, plenty are every bit as incompetent or lacking in care, and a stone fireplace glued up wouldnt surprise me in the least. Pros love no more nails far more than I do. To blame the accident on diy is a bit silly - just another bid for more dumb government control.





NT

Out of interest how would you in uk.d-i-y have fixed a stone fire surround to the wall?

I wouldn't have expected a child to swing on one. Stupid of me maybe.

Jonathan

On 28/08/14 17:07, Jonathan wrote:

Out of interest how would you in uk.d-i-y have fixed a stone fire surround to the wall?

I wouldn't have expected a child to swing on one. Stupid of me maybe.

They will...

If it is a single cast item, usually there are a couple of lugs on the
side that get buried in the paster after having been screwed to the wall
with big screws.

They may use something like coving or tile adhesive to make it firm, but
the restraint is via the lugs. They don;t have to carry any weight (it
sits in the floor) - just stop it tipping over.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 18:38:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/08/14 17:07, Jonathan wrote:

Out of interest how would you in uk.d-i-y have fixed a stone fire
surround to the wall?

I wouldn't have expected a child to swing on one. Stupid of me maybe.

They will...

If it is a single cast item, usually there are a couple of lugs on the
side that get buried in the paster after having been screwed to the wall
with big screws.

They may use something like coving or tile adhesive to make it firm, but
the restraint is via the lugs. They don;t have to carry any weight (it
sits in the floor) - just stop it tipping over.

Being paranoid, I'd be screwing thick steel strips to the back and using
those as backup lugs!



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 28/08/2014 18:47, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 18:38:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/08/14 17:07, Jonathan wrote:

Out of interest how would you in uk.d-i-y have fixed a stone fire
surround to the wall?

I wouldn't have expected a child to swing on one. Stupid of me maybe.

They will...

If it is a single cast item, usually there are a couple of lugs on the
side that get buried in the paster after having been screwed to the wall
with big screws.

They may use something like coving or tile adhesive to make it firm, but
the restraint is via the lugs. They don;t have to carry any weight (it
sits in the floor) - just stop it tipping over.

Being paranoid, I'd be screwing thick steel strips to the back and using
those as backup lugs!




Being paranoid is a parent's duty

stuart noble wrote:
On 28/08/2014 18:47, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 18:38:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/08/14 17:07, Jonathan wrote:

Out of interest how would you in uk.d-i-y have fixed a stone fire
surround to the wall?

I wouldn't have expected a child to swing on one. Stupid of me maybe.

They will...

If it is a single cast item, usually there are a couple of lugs on the
side that get buried in the paster after having been screwed to the wall
with big screws.

They may use something like coving or tile adhesive to make it firm, but
the restraint is via the lugs. They don;t have to carry any weight (it
sits in the floor) - just stop it tipping over.

Being paranoid, I'd be screwing thick steel strips to the back and using
those as backup lugs!




Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I think.

Tim

"Tim+" wrote in message
...

stuart noble wrote:
On 28/08/2014 18:47, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 18:38:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/08/14 17:07, Jonathan wrote:

Out of interest how would you in uk.d-i-y have fixed a stone fire
surround to the wall?

I wouldn't have expected a child to swing on one. Stupid of me maybe.

They will...

If it is a single cast item, usually there are a couple of lugs on the
side that get buried in the paster after having been screwed to the
wall
with big screws.

They may use something like coving or tile adhesive to make it firm,
but
the restraint is via the lugs. They don;t have to carry any weight (it
sits in the floor) - just stop it tipping over.

Being paranoid, I'd be screwing thick steel strips to the back and using
those as backup lugs!




Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if some
overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive mollycoddling.

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
...


stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble fireplace
had been fixed securely.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:27:05 +0100, newshound wrote:

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
news:934819548430947741.823097timdownie2003-
...


stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I
think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive
mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble fireplace
had been fixed securely.

The solidity of the thing itself implies that it won't move.

I'd be paranoid in case the vibration of a small earthquake made it fall
on me or the cat!



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 28/08/2014 22:54, Bob Eager wrote:

The solidity of the thing itself implies that it won't move.

Yes, straight up and down.
....but tilt? Falling over squashing you or the cat?

"newshound" wrote in message
...

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
...


stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive
mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble fireplace had
been fixed securely.

At two years old, perhaps not.
There is no indication in the report as to how long between, ''She reached
up to the fireplace and started swinging from it." and ''All of a sudden it
came away from the wall." The whole thing is tragic, but genes from both
parents contributed as dad and father-in-law stuck the thing to the wall.
When my daughter was a toddler, we made sure that she knew certain things
were not toys or gym equipment.

On 29/08/2014 09:25, Richard wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
...

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
...



stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I
think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive
mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble
fireplace had been fixed securely.

At two years old, perhaps not.
There is no indication in the report as to how long between, ''She
reached up to the fireplace and started swinging from it." and ''All of
a sudden it came away from the wall." The whole thing is tragic, but
genes from both parents contributed as dad and father-in-law stuck the
thing to the wall.
When my daughter was a toddler, we made sure that she knew certain
things were not toys or gym equipment.

Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach given half a chance.
I've never met one though. IME they are an ultra cautious bunch

On Friday, August 29, 2014 9:33:54 AM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach given half a chance.
I've never met one though. IME they are an ultra cautious bunch

Most won't even touch vegetables, or anything that isn't breadcrumbed and shaped to look like a dinosaur.

Owain

On 29/08/2014 12:20, wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 9:33:54 AM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach given half a
chance. I've never met one though. IME they are an ultra cautious
bunch

Most won't even touch vegetables, or anything that isn't breadcrumbed
and shaped to look like a dinosaur.

Owain


Quite right too!

in 1331783 20140829 093354 stuart noble wrote:
On 29/08/2014 09:25, Richard wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
...

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
..
.



stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I
think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive
mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble
fireplace had been fixed securely.

At two years old, perhaps not.
There is no indication in the report as to how long between, ''She
reached up to the fireplace and started swinging from it." and ''All of
a sudden it came away from the wall." The whole thing is tragic, but
genes from both parents contributed as dad and father-in-law stuck the
thing to the wall.
When my daughter was a toddler, we made sure that she knew certain
things were not toys or gym equipment.

Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach given half a chance.
I've never met one though. IME they are an ultra cautious bunch

My brother took a few swigs from a bottle of Dettol when he was small.

On 30/08/2014 08:29, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1331783 20140829 093354 stuart noble wrote:
On 29/08/2014 09:25, Richard wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
...

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
..
.



stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I
think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive
mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble
fireplace had been fixed securely.

At two years old, perhaps not.
There is no indication in the report as to how long between, ''She
reached up to the fireplace and started swinging from it." and ''All of
a sudden it came away from the wall." The whole thing is tragic, but
genes from both parents contributed as dad and father-in-law stuck the
thing to the wall.
When my daughter was a toddler, we made sure that she knew certain
things were not toys or gym equipment.

Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach given half a chance.
I've never met one though. IME they are an ultra cautious bunch

My brother took a few swigs from a bottle of Dettol when he was small.


One swig might be understandable, but a few? Did he decide he liked it then?

"stuart noble" wrote in message ...

On 30/08/2014 08:29, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1331783 20140829 093354 stuart noble
wrote:
On 29/08/2014 09:25, Richard wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
...

On 28/08/2014 21:33, Richard wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
..
.



stuart noble wrote:


Being paranoid is a parent's duty

Or perhaps more accurately, KNOWING when to be paranoid....

Too much paranoia in general these days with regard to children I
think.

Tim

Correct. They do not learn how to analyse their environment for risk
if
some overbearing entity has removed all risk with excessive
mollycoddling.

Yes, but to be fair I would probably assume that a big marble
fireplace had been fixed securely.

At two years old, perhaps not.
There is no indication in the report as to how long between, ''She
reached up to the fireplace and started swinging from it." and ''All
of
a sudden it came away from the wall." The whole thing is tragic, but
genes from both parents contributed as dad and father-in-law stuck the
thing to the wall.
When my daughter was a toddler, we made sure that she knew certain
things were not toys or gym equipment.

Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach given half a chance.
I've never met one though. IME they are an ultra cautious bunch

My brother took a few swigs from a bottle of Dettol when he was small.


One swig might be understandable, but a few? Did he decide he liked it
then?

Couldn't have been very pleasant:
http://www.indmedica.com/journals.ph...action=article

In article , Bob Martin
wrote:

Apparently there are toddlers who will drink bleach
given half a chance. I've never met one though. IME they
are an ultra cautious bunch
These products often contain stuff like Bitrex (Denatonium)
which is the most bitter tasting thing you could try.
Perversley, some children seem to like it!

My brother took a few swigs from a bottle of Dettol when
he was small.
Nasty if ingested, but I seem to remember once being told to
use a Dettol solution as a mouthwash.

John

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

There are 2 true symptoms of dementia; one is forgetting what you are saying, the other is forgetting what you are saying ...