I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the
woodwork is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all -
that moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although
any obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint
was almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Roger Mills wrote:

Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should perhaps
point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't an
option!

It *may* be an option if you're prepared to do the legwork, e.g. search
for application number 10/13/0385 at

http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/ApplicationSearch.aspx

On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the
woodwork is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all -
that moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although
any obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint
was almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!

IME it's certainly a waste of time repainting old wood. At best it's
cosmetic, and mostly just accelerates rot.
Ideally you need to get back to bare wood, allow it to dry, and apply a
2 part wood hardener (any polyester resin will do IME). After that, any
filler and any paint should work well and last a couple of decades.

On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?...

I would expect to achieve 7-10 years for an oil based exterior grade
paint applied to a clean, dry and well-prepared surface.


--
Colin Bignell

On 25/08/2014 11:42, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should perhaps
point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't an
option!

It *may* be an option if you're prepared to do the legwork, e.g. search
for application number 10/13/0385 at

http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/ApplicationSearch.aspx



Many thanks for that link - it certainly provides food for thought!

There are significant differences in their situation relative to ours.
Their existing windows were recent and were already double-glazed -
whereas ours are 'period' and are single-glazed. Also, each of our
sashes is sub-divided into 6 panes - whereas theirs only have 2.
Nevertheless, it's worth exploring.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 25/08/2014 12:29, stuart noble wrote:


Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!

IME it's certainly a waste of time repainting old wood. At best it's
cosmetic, and mostly just accelerates rot.
Ideally you need to get back to bare wood, allow it to dry, and apply a
2 part wood hardener (any polyester resin will do IME). After that, any
filler and any paint should work well and last a couple of decades.

Sounds like a possible solution. The most difficult part is probably
allowing it to dry - which could take a considerable time. It would
presumably need protecting from the weather whilst the drying took place?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 25/08/2014 12:32, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?...

I would expect to achieve 7-10 years for an oil based exterior grade
paint applied to a clean, dry and well-prepared surface.



I would be happy with that but, sadly, we haven't achieved anything like
that. Is this indicative of inadequate preparation?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

Roger Mills wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

application number 10/13/0385 at
http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/ApplicationSearch.aspx

Many thanks for that link - it certainly provides food for thought!

Though application 93/NFDC/51626/LBC at

http://planweb3.newforest.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do

might indicate the attitude of New Forest vs Blackburn with Darwen

There are significant differences in their situation relative to ours.
Their existing windows were recent and were already double-glazed -
whereas ours are 'period' and are single-glazed. Also, each of our
sashes is sub-divided into 6 panes - whereas theirs only have 2.
Nevertheless, it's worth exploring.

Are there houses near yours that have been given permission to replace
period single glazed with modern wooden double glazed sashes? If so and
you could demonstrate the high-spec uPVC would appear identical to
those, it might be worth trying to argue the point.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:29:14 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the
woodwork is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all -
that moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although
any obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint
was almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!

IME it's certainly a waste of time repainting old wood. At best it's
cosmetic, and mostly just accelerates rot.
Ideally you need to get back to bare wood, allow it to dry, and apply a
2 part wood hardener (any polyester resin will do IME). After that, any
filler and any paint should work well and last a couple of decades.

Three decades in my case. Thirty years ago I bought what became my
original Music Workshop which had a double-fronted shop with rotten
display windows. I did all that - plus ruthlessly cutting out and
replacing rotten timber. I saw the place was up for sale again a few
weeks ago and my window frames were still holding up.

Nick

On 25/08/2014 12:56, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/08/2014 12:32, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy
workmanship?...

I would expect to achieve 7-10 years for an oil based exterior grade
paint applied to a clean, dry and well-prepared surface.

I would be happy with that but, sadly, we haven't achieved anything like
that. Is this indicative of inadequate preparation?

Peeling paint does suggest that, but can be an incompatible surface.
What was the paint you used? Oil or water based?

Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the
woodwork is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all -
that moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although
any obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint
was almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!

Have you considered selling it and renting?

On 25/08/2014 13:30, Fredxxx wrote:
On 25/08/2014 12:56, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/08/2014 12:32, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently,
and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy
workmanship?...

I would expect to achieve 7-10 years for an oil based exterior grade
paint applied to a clean, dry and well-prepared surface.

I would be happy with that but, sadly, we haven't achieved anything like
that. Is this indicative of inadequate preparation?

Peeling paint does suggest that, but can be an incompatible surface...

+1


--
Colin Bignell

On 25/08/2014 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:


Though application 93/NFDC/51626/LBC at

http://planweb3.newforest.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do

might indicate the attitude of New Forest vs Blackburn with Darwen


Maybe, but I've been unable to view that application - getting an error
saying "Unable to perform this task. A remote exception occurred." when
I try. Sounds like a system error - maybe they'll fix it after the Bank
Holiday!


Are there houses near yours that have been given permission to replace
period single glazed with modern wooden double glazed sashes? If so and
you could demonstrate the high-spec uPVC would appear identical to
those, it might be worth trying to argue the point.


Dunno - but I'll have a look. Having said that, our house is
considerably older than most of the surrounding properties, so there's
unlikely to be much which is comparable.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Roger Mills wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

http://planweb3.newforest.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do

getting an error saying
"Unable to perform this task. A remote exception occurred."

I got the same, refresh a few times, it should work eventually, maybe
they have several servers and one has gone AWOL over the bank holiday?

On 25/08/2014 13:30, Fredxxx wrote:
On 25/08/2014 12:56, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/08/2014 12:32, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:


I would expect to achieve 7-10 years for an oil based exterior grade
paint applied to a clean, dry and well-prepared surface.

I would be happy with that but, sadly, we haven't achieved anything like
that. Is this indicative of inadequate preparation?

Peeling paint does suggest that, but can be an incompatible surface.
What was the paint you used? Oil or water based?

Almost certainly oil-based. It was done by a professional painter - not
by the residents (requiring scaffolding, etc.). It took a while to dry
compared with water-based acrylic paint. I suspect that the wood was
damp when painted, due to water penetration through the previous failing
paint surface.

It's almost certainly damp now - particularly after the Bank Holiday
weather! I just don't know how to go about getting it dry enough to
re-paint satisfactorily.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 25/08/2014 14:29, Capitol wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the
woodwork is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all -
that moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although
any obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint
was almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!

Have you considered selling it and renting?

Absolutely not! We love the place - but it does come with its challenges!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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In message , Andy
Burns writes
Roger Mills wrote:

Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should perhaps
point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't an
option!

It *may* be an option if you're prepared to do the legwork, e.g. search
for application number 10/13/0385 at

http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/Nor...er/Application
Search.aspx

Full marks for the excellent design and access statement.


--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

Andy Burns writes:

application number 10/13/0385 at
http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/ApplicationSearch.aspx

Full marks for the excellent design and access statement.

Yes, I thought they'd sought out plenty of relevant boxes and
demonstrated they were all ticked, but

"painted sashes will jam and we'll all die in a fire"

was a nice touch ...

Tim Lamb wrote:

Full marks for the excellent design and access statement.

Results look pretty good too

http://www.bisonframes.co.uk/news/the-genesis-vertical-sliding-window-a-new-chapter/2013/10

I managed to coax a larger photo out of their webserver

http://bisonframes.co.uk/timthumb.php?src=/assets/SAM_0322-526a89a31fd64.JPG&w=1600px

On 25/08/2014 16:15, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

http://planweb3.newforest.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do

getting an error saying
"Unable to perform this task. A remote exception occurred."

I got the same, refresh a few times, it should work eventually, maybe
they have several servers and one has gone AWOL over the bank holiday?



Ah, yes - finally managed to see the plans. Not really an apples for
apples comparison with the Blackburn project though because the
application and decision occurred around 20 years ago. An awful lot has
happened in the meantime to improve the appearance of uPVC windows, not
to mention the importance now attached to thermal efficiency - which
nobody cared about at the time. I need to find out what the NFDC's
current attitude is. I'm not that optimistic, because they're a pretty
stuffy lot!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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I have a window sill like this. You can tell its taken the primer off of the
wood and caused cracks in the outside. of course its black with hindsight
maybe not a good choice in full sunshine!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was last
done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the woodwork
is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all - that
moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although any
obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint was
almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't an
option!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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checked.

On 25/08/14 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?

If it is south or sw-facing it will be more exposed to the sun and rain
so will not last as long. The rear (north) windows of my flat are sound
and some are probably the Georgian originals, only one light one sash in
the front remains original and all need attention.




It seems to me that one problem with old buildings is that if the
woodwork is only slightly unsound - and contains any moisture at all -
that moisture will fund its way out, and force the paint off. Although
any obviously rotten timber was replaced when it was last painted, paint
was almost certainly applied on a number of *slightly* dubious areas.

I agree, good preparation is essential and not often done.



Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!


--
djc

On 25/08/2014 12:53, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/08/2014 12:29, stuart noble wrote:


Anyone else faced with similar problems and, if so, have you found a
solution? Before you say "replace all the woodwork with uPVC" I should
perhaps point out that it's a Grade II listed building - so that ain't
an option!

IME it's certainly a waste of time repainting old wood. At best it's
cosmetic, and mostly just accelerates rot.
Ideally you need to get back to bare wood, allow it to dry, and apply a
2 part wood hardener (any polyester resin will do IME). After that, any
filler and any paint should work well and last a couple of decades.

Sounds like a possible solution. The most difficult part is probably
allowing it to dry - which could take a considerable time. It would
presumably need protecting from the weather whilst the drying took place?

IME bare wood dries relatively quickly given a couple of days bright and
breezy weather, and it won't hurt to go for a few weeks/months without a
surface coating. Unfortunately this makes it difficult to employ someone
to do it as you have to keep an eye on the weather and grasp the
opportunity when it comes.

If these are sliding sash windows, you could reverse them and work from
the inside. Creates a bit of mess in the bedroom but it beats the hell
out of doing remedial work off a ladder. You can just whack a few nails
in to support the upper sash rather than re-stringing and putting the
parting bead in and out. Worked a treat for me and I can quite believe
Nick's testimony that 3 decades is more than possible. Alas mine need a
little touching up after only two decades, and I'm two decades older!

Once the resin has cured you will have effectively converted the wood to
plastic, but without anyone knowing the difference.

On 26/08/2014 10:08, stuart noble wrote:


IME bare wood dries relatively quickly given a couple of days bright and
breezy weather, and it won't hurt to go for a few weeks/months without a
surface coating. Unfortunately this makes it difficult to employ someone
to do it as you have to keep an eye on the weather and grasp the
opportunity when it comes.


I think that may be true if it's only wet on the surface. But, if water
has penetrated further in over months or years, it takes much longer to
dry.

If these are sliding sash windows, you could reverse them and work from
the inside. Creates a bit of mess in the bedroom but it beats the hell
out of doing remedial work off a ladder. You can just whack a few nails
in to support the upper sash rather than re-stringing and putting the
parting bead in and out. Worked a treat for me and I can quite believe
Nick's testimony that 3 decades is more than possible. Alas mine need a
little touching up after only two decades, and I'm two decades older!

Yes, they are (mainly) sliding sash windows. I've made the ones in my
individual flat relatively easy to remove by using screw-on staff
beading and by using snap-in fittings where the cords attach to the
sashes. And I've made softwood frames covered by polythene sheeting to
fill the gaps temporarily while the sashes are removed. So I have the
option of doing something to my own sashes. But that leaves all the
other flats . . . and still needs ladder or preferably scaffolding
access to get at the outer frames and cills - which are also not in that
good a state.

Once the resin has cured you will have effectively converted the wood to
plastic, but without anyone knowing the difference.

Yes, sounds like a good plan - but we would need to have it done
professionally - it ain't a DIY job for this size of building.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 25/08/2014 12:32, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 25/08/2014 11:16, Roger Mills wrote:
I hate external woodwork which needs to be re-painted frequently, and my
main home in the midlands is largely maintenance-free in this respect.

But I also own a flat in a converted Georgian house in the New Forest -
which *does* have lots of external woodwork.

The current practice is to re-paint it every five years - but it was
last done only 3 years ago, and lots of paint is already pealing off -
particularly on the window-cills.

Anyone have a view as to how long a re-paint had *ought* to last, and
whether or not a life of only 3 years is a sign of shoddy workmanship?...

I would expect to achieve 7-10 years for an oil based exterior grade
paint applied to a clean, dry and well-prepared surface.


Prior to VOC 2010 that might have been true but getting decent
(exterior) paint is now difficult. One place to ask though is Ron
Currie. They are based in Nottingham and sell timber, windows, doors and
do bespoke joinery. They recommend a variety of treatments for grain and
joint sealing that they use on their own products. They have an ebay site.

Dulux Weathershield used to have an 8 year guarantee and where I have
used it on surfaces not exposed to the south, it has lasted double that.
However, VOC 2010 has changed all that. The all-important fungicide
primer has changed from solvent based to water based and is a poor
substitute. The DIY version of the weathershield undercoat always was
water based, but the trade version is still solvent based.

If you can get all the paint off and allow the timber to dry thoroughly,
give a liberal squirt of cuprinol in critical areas, allow another week
to dry and use an oil-based primer, then your new paint stands a chance
of lasting at least 5 years. If you pay someone and he just uses some 40
grade sandpaper to remove the pigeon **** and key the surface and just
uses cheap crappy trade paint then I'm not surprised that it is peeling
after only three years.

Andrew