A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?


--
AnthonyL

on 14/08/2014, AnthonyL supposed :
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?

I would suspect, that the water around the window, is tracking over the
top of that exposed lintel. You could confirm that theory by spraying
the lintel with a hose. Your water damaged wallpaper further into the
room, is likely due to wind blown rain getting under the tiles.

You could test the theory further, by sticking a temporary strip of
that sticky backed plastic lead flashing to the wall face, so it over
hung the lintel forming a 'drip strip', hanging loose a little way
below the lintle.

Absolutely not an expert, but that is the way I would play it.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield writes:
on 14/08/2014, AnthonyL supposed :
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?

I would suspect, that the water around the window, is tracking over the
top of that exposed lintel.

or under the lintel, and there's no seal between the
lintel and the window (expanding foam isn't a water seal).

However, there's a valley gutter just above both leaks, and
these can leak if the lead lining cracks or there's some other
fault with them. Can't see in the picture.

The right-hand end bricks don't look like they're bedded onto the
lintel at all - just sitting directly on it.

You could confirm that theory by spraying
the lintel with a hose. Your water damaged wallpaper further into the
room, is likely due to wind blown rain getting under the tiles.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?


The most obvious design fault is that there is no overhang of the roof.
ie It should project beyond the brickwork (over the window) so that water
that drips from it falls clear of the wall.
It appears to be virtually flush which may well let water in.
The roof structure should project at least 100mm beyond the brickwork and
should be arranged so that wter drips off the edge and does not run back
towards the wall.

You could confirm this by putting a silicon bead along the juctions whch
would fix it.
But this would only be a temporary fix.

You might be able to put some lead on it but it would look pretty ****e.
I would be hard/expensive to fix properly, the roof over the dormer would
have to be removed and new longer battens fitted with tiling to suit.

harryagain pretended :
"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?


The most obvious design fault is that there is no overhang of the roof.
ie It should project beyond the brickwork (over the window) so that water
that drips from it falls clear of the wall.
It appears to be virtually flush which may well let water in.
The roof structure should project at least 100mm beyond the brickwork and
should be arranged so that wter drips off the edge and does not run back
towards the wall.

You could confirm this by putting a silicon bead along the juctions whch
would fix it.
But this would only be a temporary fix.

You might be able to put some lead on it but it would look pretty ****e.
I would be hard/expensive to fix properly, the roof over the dormer would
have to be removed and new longer battens fitted with tiling to suit.

You can now get a 90 deg tile, which overlap down the wall, but how
that would work matching into old tiles I don't know. Our tiles only
overlap by about 25mm, with the edges f launched with cement to the
wall. We have never suffered any leaks.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 22:33:08 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

on 14/08/2014, AnthonyL supposed :
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?

I would suspect, that the water around the window, is tracking over the
top of that exposed lintel. You could confirm that theory by spraying
the lintel with a hose.

The entry point is a couple of courses above the lintel. I'll still
spray to make sure.

Your water damaged wallpaper further into the
room, is likely due to wind blown rain getting under the tiles.


Well I can spray from different angles. The roof is about 45deg so
not sure why water/damp should get under. I can't see anything from
the loft.

You could test the theory further, by sticking a temporary strip of
that sticky backed plastic lead flashing to the wall face, so it over
hung the lintel forming a 'drip strip', hanging loose a little way
below the lintle.


At this stage I want to make it happen not stop it from happening.
Very hard to prove a negative.

Absolutely not an expert, but that is the way I would play it.


Finding an expert seems very elusive. This is a DIY that I am doing
very reluctantly.

--
AnthonyL

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 23:47:43 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield writes:
on 14/08/2014, AnthonyL supposed :
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?

I would suspect, that the water around the window, is tracking over the
top of that exposed lintel.

or under the lintel, and there's no seal between the
lintel and the window (expanding foam isn't a water seal).


How should it have been sealed?


However, there's a valley gutter just above both leaks,

I think I've only got one leak - the web page shows problems that
existed before and those that still exist. Where are you reading two
leaks?

and
these can leak if the lead lining cracks or there's some other
fault with them. Can't see in the picture.


I'll try soaking the valleys. They may date back to the 1860's so
there may be some porosity. My main worry is that we've had the odd
thunderstorm and the water hasn't come in - maybe it's got an internal
reservoir and the water is being held until it reaches a certain
level?

The right-hand end bricks don't look like they're bedded onto the
lintel at all - just sitting directly on it.


I'll look at this more closely. I think the lintel was supposed to
have been 6" into the brickwork at the sides. However I'm not having
a problem on that side (yet).



--
AnthonyL

On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 08:10:28 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?


The most obvious design fault is that there is no overhang of the roof.
ie It should project beyond the brickwork (over the window) so that water
that drips from it falls clear of the wall.
It appears to be virtually flush which may well let water in.

It's worse than that, it actually projects out. The original (1860's)
design did half the window half a course inset as the early pictures
show.

The roof structure should project at least 100mm beyond the brickwork and
should be arranged so that wter drips off the edge and does not run back
towards the wall.

You could confirm this by putting a silicon bead along the juctions whch
would fix it.
But this would only be a temporary fix.


At this stage I'm more interested in proving where the problem is than
solving it. This is so once I instruct someone to fix it I can test
that it is really fixed.

You might be able to put some lead on it but it would look pretty ****e.
I would be hard/expensive to fix properly, the roof over the dormer would
have to be removed and new longer battens fitted with tiling to suit.


It may be that the whole of the brickwork will need to be taken out,
and re-done properly instead of in its current "wibbly wobbly"
condition. At the same time a treated lintel can be installed instead
of the bare metal one this 'builder' used.


--
AnthonyL

In article ,
lid (AnthonyL) writes:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 23:47:43 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield writes:
on 14/08/2014, AnthonyL supposed :
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?

I would suspect, that the water around the window, is tracking over the
top of that exposed lintel.

or under the lintel, and there's no seal between the
lintel and the window (expanding foam isn't a water seal).

How should it have been sealed?

Up to 1/4" wide, silicone sealant is usually used.
If it's wider that that, it should have had a piece of facing PVC
added, and silicone sealed around the edge of that. There shouldn't
be expanded foam showing - it's not weatherproof (frost and UV will
do for it).

However, there's a valley gutter just above both leaks,

I think I've only got one leak - the web page shows problems that
existed before and those that still exist. Where are you reading two
leaks?

and
these can leak if the lead lining cracks or there's some other
fault with them. Can't see in the picture.


I'll try soaking the valleys. They may date back to the 1860's so
there may be some porosity. My main worry is that we've had the odd

If the lead was well done, it should last about 70 years. Eventually,
heat cycling in the sun causes it to crack across. Longer pieces tend
to have shorter lives (due to more expansion).

thunderstorm and the water hasn't come in - maybe it's got an internal
reservoir and the water is being held until it reaches a certain
level?

It may be directional, and thus depend on the direction and
magnitude of the rain.

The right-hand end bricks don't look like they're bedded onto the
lintel at all - just sitting directly on it.


I'll look at this more closely. I think the lintel was supposed to
have been 6" into the brickwork at the sides. However I'm not having
a problem on that side (yet).

Is the lintel new(ish)?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:

Absolutely not an expert, but that is the way I would
play it.


Finding an expert seems very elusive. This is a DIY that
I am doing very reluctantly.
Sometimes the *experts* have blinkers, the opinions on here
while often contrary to one another, sometimes get the
correct answer from experience and also from lateral
thinking (there are also some good experts here as well)

JTM

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

Love is for sharing.

On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 08:10:28 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?


The most obvious design fault is that there is no overhang of the roof.
ie It should project beyond the brickwork (over the window) so that water
that drips from it falls clear of the wall.
It appears to be virtually flush which may well let water in.
The roof structure should project at least 100mm beyond the brickwork and
should be arranged so that wter drips off the edge and does not run back
towards the wall.

You could confirm this by putting a silicon bead along the juctions whch
would fix it.
But this would only be a temporary fix.

You might be able to put some lead on it but it would look pretty ****e.
I would be hard/expensive to fix properly, the roof over the dormer would
have to be removed and new longer battens fitted with tiling to suit.



I've just put a hose up and sprayed that top and front edge for 2hrs
and no sign of water coming in despite all the design flaws. See 17
August on http://lookhere.comuf.com/ for yesterday's tests.


--
AnthonyL

On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 14:36:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
lid (AnthonyL) writes:

I'll try soaking the valleys. They may date back to the 1860's so
there may be some porosity. My main worry is that we've had the odd

If the lead was well done, it should last about 70 years. Eventually,
heat cycling in the sun causes it to crack across. Longer pieces tend
to have shorter lives (due to more expansion).


Well the lead valley is well past its sell by date then being double
what you say.

I did a 'soak' test yesterday, running a stream of water down the
valley for about 2hrs. See http://lookhere.comuf.com/ for yesterday's
tests.

I could try the other valley but it seems implausible that it would
cause the problem on the other side of the window.

--
AnthonyL

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Can't see the original post but I've looked at the photos and the spray
tests.
It seems to me that the spray test you did in the valley was just running
down the centre of the lead.
I want one where the water is sprayed directly at the left hand side of the
dormer roof, so as to create a rain storm coming from the left and driving
onto the dormer.
I've looked carefully at the lead valley but all the photos only show the
left hand lead / slate join of the valley - you would have to be on the main
roof to see the right hand side of it, and this is where I think the water
is getting in.
There's either a small rip, hole or tear somewhere on that lead valley and
this would be the first thing i would replace if it were mine, probably with
a fibreglass one.

In message , Phil L
writes
There's either a small rip, hole or tear somewhere on that lead valley and
this would be the first thing i would replace if it were mine, probably with
a fibreglass one.

Having had a similar problem recently, I agree with Phil. Having noted
the ingress, I contacted a local builder, who climbed on the roof and
said the lead valley was worn out, probably having been there since
1860-something. New valley and no more leaks.

Took two guys not much more than an hour to remove slates, remove
valley, replace valley and replace slates. The dormer was above a
single story flat roof, so they didn't bother with scaffolding.

--
Graeme

On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 17:58:26 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Can't see the original post but I've looked at the photos and the spray
tests.
It seems to me that the spray test you did in the valley was just running
down the centre of the lead.

The test I did was to see if the valley was porous.

I want one where the water is sprayed directly at the left hand side of the
dormer roof, so as to create a rain storm coming from the left and driving
onto the dormer.

Yes, that's a different test that I have yet to do. I'm hoping to get
a crawler so I can get higher up the roof.

I've looked carefully at the lead valley but all the photos only show the
left hand lead / slate join of the valley - you would have to be on the main
roof to see the right hand side of it, and this is where I think the water
is getting in.

Why? And how is water that might get in on the right hand valley
going to climb over to the left hand side (we are talking left and
right as facing the house?).

Having said that I plan also to do a soak test of the right hand
valley simply because it is an easy test to do.

There's either a small rip, hole or tear somewhere on that lead valley and
this would be the first thing i would replace if it were mine, probably with
a fibreglass one.


In the end I may replace both valleys and ensure that there is a
decent lip. At the moment both valley/tile gaps have been lead sealed
because the 'builder' I used suggested it.


--
AnthonyL

On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 18:36:05 +0100, News
wrote:

In message , Phil L
writes
There's either a small rip, hole or tear somewhere on that lead valley and
this would be the first thing i would replace if it were mine, probably with
a fibreglass one.

Having had a similar problem recently, I agree with Phil. Having noted
the ingress, I contacted a local builder, who climbed on the roof and
said the lead valley was worn out, probably having been there since
1860-something. New valley and no more leaks.


Wouldn't you expect running a stream of water for 2hrs to have shown
up? My problem is how long to test. But we've had thunderstorms with
local flash flooding that resulted in nothing and steady light drizzle
that has.

--
AnthonyL

On 14/08/2014 21:47, AnthonyL wrote:
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?




If you are going to put up scaffolding then .. strip back the valley
slates either side of lead and replace the valley lead (or even put in
fibreglass tray)
Once you have edge slates stripped back you will see if any water is
tracking across lead or through it.
Its only a day job for a roofer if scaffolding is there.


--
UK SelfBuild: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/UK_Selfbuild/

On 17/08/2014 20:27, Rick Hughes wrote:


If you are going to put up scaffolding then .. strip back the valley
slates either side of lead and replace the valley lead (or even put in
fibreglass tray)
Once you have edge slates stripped back you will see if any water is
tracking across lead or through it.
Its only a day job for a roofer if scaffolding is there.


Had a look at you pics .... its a 1/2 day job at most for roofer ...

--
UK SelfBuild: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/UK_Selfbuild/

On Friday, 15 August 2014 20:15:13 UTC+1, JTM wrote:
In article ,

AnthonyL wrote:

Sometimes the *experts* have blinkers, the opinions on here

while often contrary to one another, sometimes get the

correct answer from experience and also from lateral

thinking (there are also some good experts here as well)




Lateral thinking, eh? How about, fill the room with water and see where it comes out?

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 17:58:26 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Can't see the original post but I've looked at the photos and the spray
tests.
It seems to me that the spray test you did in the valley was just running
down the centre of the lead.

The test I did was to see if the valley was porous.

I want one where the water is sprayed directly at the left hand side of
the
dormer roof, so as to create a rain storm coming from the left and driving
onto the dormer.

Yes, that's a different test that I have yet to do. I'm hoping to get
a crawler so I can get higher up the roof.

I've looked carefully at the lead valley but all the photos only show the
left hand lead / slate join of the valley - you would have to be on the
main
roof to see the right hand side of it, and this is where I think the water
is getting in.

Why? And how is water that might get in on the right hand valley
going to climb over to the left hand side (we are talking left and
right as facing the house?).

No, left and right hand sides of the same valley. (the left valley that you
had the hosepipe in)
All the photos look at the the left side of this valley, there are no
pictures of the right side of it



Having said that I plan also to do a soak test of the right hand
valley simply because it is an easy test to do.

There's either a small rip, hole or tear somewhere on that lead valley and
this would be the first thing i would replace if it were mine, probably
with
a fibreglass one.


In the end I may replace both valleys and ensure that there is a
decent lip. At the moment both valley/tile gaps have been lead sealed
because the 'builder' I used suggested it.

Because this is where the water is getting in, I'd have tried the same
myself before ripping the lead valleys off, it's worth a try and could have
cured it.
The rip / hole / tear could be anywhere on the valley and the rain will run
down to the bottom underneath the lead before soaking into the plaster.
I've visually checked the lead where it's visible, but this is the only part
that isn't, which is why i suspect it.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:58:16 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 17:58:26 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Can't see the original post but I've looked at the photos and the spray
tests.
It seems to me that the spray test you did in the valley was just running
down the centre of the lead.

The test I did was to see if the valley was porous.

I want one where the water is sprayed directly at the left hand side of
the
dormer roof, so as to create a rain storm coming from the left and driving
onto the dormer.

Yes, that's a different test that I have yet to do. I'm hoping to get
a crawler so I can get higher up the roof.

I've looked carefully at the lead valley but all the photos only show the
left hand lead / slate join of the valley - you would have to be on the
main
roof to see the right hand side of it, and this is where I think the water
is getting in.

Why? And how is water that might get in on the right hand valley
going to climb over to the left hand side (we are talking left and
right as facing the house?).

No, left and right hand sides of the same valley. (the left valley that you
had the hosepipe in)
All the photos look at the the left side of this valley, there are no
pictures of the right side of it


Got you. What you see is the whole width of the valley. The darker
line is down the middle. The left side is about in the same plane as
the left hand roof tiles, the right side is nearly at 90deg. I think
it is a perspective problem For the moment both sides have lead
sealant squished in between the valley and the tiles.




Having said that I plan also to do a soak test of the right hand
valley simply because it is an easy test to do.

There's either a small rip, hole or tear somewhere on that lead valley and
this would be the first thing i would replace if it were mine, probably
with
a fibreglass one.

That's why I thought initially running water down the trough of the
valley should show a problem as this is where it seems most fragile.
But 2hrs showed nothing.



In the end I may replace both valleys and ensure that there is a
decent lip. At the moment both valley/tile gaps have been lead sealed
because the 'builder' I used suggested it.

Because this is where the water is getting in, I'd have tried the same
myself before ripping the lead valleys off, it's worth a try and could have
cured it.
The rip / hole / tear could be anywhere on the valley and the rain will run
down to the bottom underneath the lead before soaking into the plaster.
I've visually checked the lead where it's visible, but this is the only part
that isn't, which is why i suspect it.


I don't just want to replace the valleys only to find the problem is
actually somewhere else. Somehow or other I want to force a leak
first especially as at the moment the loan of the tower and my time
are free.


--
AnthonyL

In article ,
lid (AnthonyL) writes:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 14:36:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
lid (AnthonyL) writes:

I'll try soaking the valleys. They may date back to the 1860's so
there may be some porosity. My main worry is that we've had the odd

If the lead was well done, it should last about 70 years. Eventually,
heat cycling in the sun causes it to crack across. Longer pieces tend
to have shorter lives (due to more expansion).


Well the lead valley is well past its sell by date then being double
what you say.

I did a 'soak' test yesterday, running a stream of water down the
valley for about 2hrs. See http://lookhere.comuf.com/ for yesterday's
tests.

I didn't notice all the other photos before.

The test is not the right one. You need to run the water down the
roof into the valley (from both sides), not just along the bottom
of the valley. Even this isn't perfect as you aren't simulating
various wind directions to go with it.

I notice you have tried to seal the valley edges. A valley gutter
should work fine without any seal, indeed there is a risk that any
slightly imperfect seal will directly the water under the valley
rather than into it.

There is a very obvious hole in your pictures where a slate has
moved sideways and no longer even meets the valley edge. I would
expect water ingress there, although I can't see what's under the
hole, but it does look to me like it's pretty much right over the
water stain on the inside.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The test is not the right one. You need to run the water down the
roof into the valley

I didn't look at the pictures either, but the last time this was
discussed, someone suggested the rain was running down the roof,
reaching the valley, and then being diverted up and under the tiles on
the dormer, I did rather assume that the tests would include running the
hose from the ridge ...

In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The test is not the right one. You need to run the water down the
roof into the valley

I didn't look at the pictures either, but the last time this was
discussed, someone suggested the rain was running down the roof,
reaching the valley, and then being diverted up and under the tiles on
the dormer, I did rather assume that the tests would include running the
hose from the ridge ...

I had a valley start leaking 10 years ago. In that case it was a cracked
tile well above the valley which let water through to the roofing felt.
The water then run down the felt onto the valley underneath the tiles,
so it continued working. Eventually, enough muck got washed in and
settled to cause the felt to sag and pocket where it overlapped the
valley, and it rotted though, causing what appeared from the inside
to be a leaking valley.

I stripped the tiles and battens off for 1-2 metres either side of the
valley, and rolled back the felt. The valley had already been replaced
with a GRP (plastic) one which was still fine, except it lost its mortar
key along the edges for pointing in the process of me cleaning it up.
I replaced that by painting a new strip of sand/resin mix along the edge.

Then I fitted new felt, using a non-breathable non-tearable glass
reinforced felt strip under the valley as I wanted that to be particularly
waterproof, with valleys being weak points for leaks in any case.
The existing felt was then unrolled back over that, since it still needs
to route any water which leaks through down the roof and onto the
replacement felt.

This was followed by replacement battens, and then refitting the
concrete tiles, together with some new ones to replace cracked ones.
This is where it becomes handy to have taken some picture of how the
tiles were laid before you removed them, and I stored the cut tiles
down the valley in order on the scaffolding so they could be fitted
back in the original order.

At this point, I got a torrential down-pour which was perfect timing,
and nothing came through.

All that remained was to repoint the valley, which was the bit I was
most hesitant about doing properly. Went for a walk around the local
roads and found a roofer working on another house, and asked him to
come and do it, which he did the next morning. That was very useful
for me to see how it should be done, but I didn't like the quality of
his work, so I washed it all out as soon as he had gone, and did it
again myself!

This was 10 years ago, and it's been fine since. I peeked at it about
6 months ago when I had a ladder out, and it all still looks fine.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 22:16:23 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
lid (AnthonyL) writes:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 14:36:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
lid (AnthonyL) writes:

I'll try soaking the valleys. They may date back to the 1860's so
there may be some porosity. My main worry is that we've had the odd

If the lead was well done, it should last about 70 years. Eventually,
heat cycling in the sun causes it to crack across. Longer pieces tend
to have shorter lives (due to more expansion).


Well the lead valley is well past its sell by date then being double
what you say.

I did a 'soak' test yesterday, running a stream of water down the
valley for about 2hrs. See http://lookhere.comuf.com/ for yesterday's
tests.

I didn't notice all the other photos before.

The test is not the right one.

Surely it tests whether the lead is porous?

You need to run the water down the
roof into the valley (from both sides), not just along the bottom
of the valley. Even this isn't perfect as you aren't simulating
various wind directions to go with it.


Well the spray test put water onto both valleys, but I do intend to
get the hose high up and let it run onto the back of the dormer. At
the moment I'm just doing one test at a time.

I notice you have tried to seal the valley edges. A valley gutter
should work fine without any seal, indeed there is a risk that any
slightly imperfect seal will directly the water under the valley
rather than into it.


That was my 'builder's' bodged attempt after water streamed in shortly
after he had finished his work - see May 2014 entry. It didn't work.

There is a very obvious hole in your pictures where a slate has
moved sideways and no longer even meets the valley edge. I would
expect water ingress there, although I can't see what's under the
hole, but it does look to me like it's pretty much right over the
water stain on the inside.


Yes - the 'builder' had this massive ladder with a bar across the top
and every time he used it he caused more damage than he fixed. The
problem was there before. He did that damage when he put the sealant
on. The hole goes right through to the felt.

--
AnthonyL

On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 23:31:02 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The test is not the right one. You need to run the water down the
roof into the valley

I didn't look at the pictures either, but the last time this was
discussed, someone suggested the rain was running down the roof,
reaching the valley, and then being diverted up and under the tiles on
the dormer, I did rather assume that the tests would include running the
hose from the ridge ...


That test is to come - I was hoping to get my hands on a crawler today
but the guy lending it to me hasn't made contact. I want to get as
high as I can. Any ideas? I might see if I can throw a string line
over the roof and pull the hose up from behind the house.

--
AnthonyL

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 09:03:47 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The test is not the right one. You need to run the water down the
roof into the valley

I didn't look at the pictures either, but the last time this was
discussed, someone suggested the rain was running down the roof,
reaching the valley, and then being diverted up and under the tiles on
the dormer, I did rather assume that the tests would include running the
hose from the ridge ...

I had a valley start leaking 10 years ago. In that case it was a cracked
tile well above the valley which let water through to the roofing felt.
The water then run down the felt onto the valley underneath the tiles,
so it continued working. Eventually, enough muck got washed in and
settled to cause the felt to sag and pocket where it overlapped the
valley, and it rotted though, causing what appeared from the inside
to be a leaking valley.


I'm suspecting something like this with water getting under the dormer
roof tiles in certain conditions. The frustration is that the
'builder' had the dormer brickwork out and could have seen the state
inside. The main drivers for the work were a) the water ingress and
b) a cracked chimney pot.

I stripped the tiles and battens off for 1-2 metres either side of the
valley, and rolled back the felt. The valley had already been replaced
with a GRP (plastic) one which was still fine, except it lost its mortar
key along the edges for pointing in the process of me cleaning it up.
I replaced that by painting a new strip of sand/resin mix along the edge.

Then I fitted new felt, using a non-breathable non-tearable glass
reinforced felt strip under the valley as I wanted that to be particularly
waterproof, with valleys being weak points for leaks in any case.
The existing felt was then unrolled back over that, since it still needs
to route any water which leaks through down the roof and onto the
replacement felt.

This was followed by replacement battens, and then refitting the
concrete tiles, together with some new ones to replace cracked ones.
This is where it becomes handy to have taken some picture of how the
tiles were laid before you removed them, and I stored the cut tiles
down the valley in order on the scaffolding so they could be fitted
back in the original order.

At this point, I got a torrential down-pour which was perfect timing,
and nothing came through.

All that remained was to repoint the valley, which was the bit I was
most hesitant about doing properly. Went for a walk around the local
roads and found a roofer working on another house, and asked him to
come and do it, which he did the next morning. That was very useful
for me to see how it should be done, but I didn't like the quality of
his work, so I washed it all out as soon as he had gone, and did it
again myself!

This was 10 years ago, and it's been fine since. I peeked at it about
6 months ago when I had a ladder out, and it all still looks fine.


I really don't feel competent to do it myself and like your experience
shows - I don't know how to choose a good roofer. I wouldn't be doing
these tests myself if I knew of someone competent that I could trust.
As others have said - half a day or so to strip and redo the tiles on
the dormer. I do want the brickwork and lintels fixed as well though.

--
AnthonyL

In article
, Mr
Fuxit wrote:



Lateral thinking, eh? How about, fill the room with water
and see where it comes out?
That's just plain silly-
he can't fill it until he finds where it's getting in!

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

The good we stand on is our truth and honesty.

In article , Phil L
wrote:

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Can't see the original post but I've looked at the photos
and the spray tests. It seems to me that the spray test
you did in the valley was just running down the centre of
the lead. I want one where the water is sprayed directly
at the left hand side of the dormer roof, so as to create
a rain storm coming from the left and driving onto the
dormer.
Not only driving rain, but sometimes the rain might be so
heavy that the valley fills up faster than it can carry the
water away

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

The greatest fault is to be conscious of none.

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
}I've just put a hose up and sprayed that top and front edge for 2hrs
}and no sign of water coming in despite all the design flaws. See 17
}August on http://lookhere.comuf.com/ for yesterday's tests.

Based on your pictures and tests, my suspicion is that water is getting
through the slates and running down the membrane behind them until it
reaches the wall. If so, spraying from the left onto the slates should
cause water ingress. You might also try inspecting the slates to see
if any are loose or look like they have cracks. The frontmost one of
the row just below the ridge seems to be lifted up a bit as is the
second one in on the row below. The second one in on the row below
that looks like it has lost some material where it disappears under
the ones above. Maybe it has a crack at or near the junction of the
two above it and that's where the water is getting in.

On 14/08/2014 9:47 PM, AnthonyL wrote:
A couple of months ago I posted "How to approach builder's problem?".
Since then after a period of negotiations the builder has agreed a
refund and I am now looking at moving on with hopes of sorting the
problem out.

At this stage I am planning to put a scaffold tower and a crawler up
and try and ascertain exactly how the water is getting in before
engaging someone to fix it.

I've done a bit of a web page explaining the problem, see:

http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I can readily get a hose up on the roof once I've got the crawler set
up. Any tips on what tests I should carry out?




Hi Anthony,

I'm afraid the section of roof is a bit of a mess mess.

The lead-work is shoddy and shot at. It needs replacing. There is slate
missing and there are nails sticking out of the slate-work. I can see
many places where rain can be driven in. Cement, particularly new
cement, soaks up water for fun and will transport it in a small stream.
It would have been better to have painted it, in the least.

The lead valley is open at the bottom. In the same area a half-slate
is missing; the soaker(lead) will deliver rain to the inside wall. The
new piece of lead will help to keep the wind and rain out a little but,
the adjacent slate's nail hole is exposed due to the half slate being
missing.

The position of this nail hole also denotes where the slate
batten/lath is. This indicates where the top of the underlying slate top
is. And, it appears to be directly below the lead valley lip/end. The
fact it is dashed with a black sealant tells me the nail hole is
exposed. The right thing to do in this one area is to find a full length
half slate; push a formed piece of lead up under the valley lead and up
the wall of the dormer. Then, slide in the half slate.

In another picture you show, there is a cut-slate(valley edge) spun
out of position. I see in other pictures it is 'in' position. However,
even in position you can see a nail head. This nail is way too close to
the slate edges. This is a leak. Your red arrow of the underside points
this out. It also seems, that even in position, it covers the lead by
only an inch or less.

Having said this, I am more intrigued as to where the leak bringing
the ceiling paper down is coming in? I am guessing the louvre doors are
at last 2 feet from the wall(Gable)? Once again, the cement bonding the
verge slate could the problem, but that's a guess? Some slates above the
leaky area are sitting up very proud (10 rows down and 5 slates in is a
good example.) Driven rain will get to the upper nails. Water may find
it's way down via any path and may not be directly below ingress.

Nails and nail holes in a slate are only a few inches above the
bottom edge of the slate that laps it.

There is also a few proud slates upper left of the dormer. The
catchment affect of the valley will direct wind into these slates.

It seems that the roof has been re-laid at some time but, the picture
of the inside shows that the felt is old? It appears to look brittle?
I am struck by the dust spray on the felt to the right of the dormer
timbers too. This is an indication of wind making its way in from around
and below the level of the felt lap.

The truth is; slates and tiles do not prevent water-spray getting into
a roof space. The job of the felt is to carry away any that does. At one
time all slate-work was back-pointed. This is why good work practice is
essential.

I was never a roof repairer, though I did a few during quieter times.
On the whole I only did complete re-roofs. I.e. All off; lath and felt,
and all back on, or I did flat roof conversions. It was the only way I
could be sure the roof was intact. Someone who has years of repair
experience may solve your problem?

Solving a leak is not as obvious as some may think.


....Ray.


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On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 02:53:23 +0000, Charles Bryant
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
}I've just put a hose up and sprayed that top and front edge for 2hrs
}and no sign of water coming in despite all the design flaws. See 17
}August on http://lookhere.comuf.com/ for yesterday's tests.

Based on your pictures and tests, my suspicion is that water is getting
through the slates and running down the membrane behind them until it
reaches the wall. If so, spraying from the left onto the slates should
cause water ingress. You might also try inspecting the slates to see
if any are loose or look like they have cracks. The frontmost one of
the row just below the ridge seems to be lifted up a bit as is the
second one in on the row below. The second one in on the row below
that looks like it has lost some material where it disappears under
the ones above. Maybe it has a crack at or near the junction of the
two above it and that's where the water is getting in.

Yes I have forced the ingress by spraying from the left hand side to
just above the dormer ridge. I can't readily get on the roof yet but
I held the camera at arm's length with one foot on the valley and took
a shot of the join between the valley and the tiles near the ridge -
not pretty and I suspect this has been a long lasting problem. The
'builder' couldn't even get the lead sealant properly into place.

See yesterday's entries on http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I'm going to try and put some tape over this section and repeat the
test just to make sure. Once I know what is the main cause I can then
hopefully proceed with getting remedial work done and know what to
test to be confident that that problem (and all others) have been
fixed.


--
AnthonyL

Hi Ray

Thanks for your time. I've responded to a couple of points. Another
posting in response to Charles Bryant covers where I now think the
water is getting in. See also yesterday's entries on the
http://lookhere.comuf.com/ page.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 20:00:28 +0100, RayL12
wrote:

I'm afraid the section of roof is a bit of a mess mess.

The lead-work is shoddy and shot at. It needs replacing. There is slate
missing and there are nails sticking out of the slate-work. I can see
many places where rain can be driven in. Cement, particularly new
cement, soaks up water for fun and will transport it in a small stream.
It would have been better to have painted it, in the least.


I think I've proven its not the cement.

The lead valley is open at the bottom. In the same area a half-slate
is missing; the soaker(lead) will deliver rain to the inside wall.

I'm afraid I don't understand this. Note the roof pitch is around
45deg - it's pretty steep.


In another picture you show, there is a cut-slate(valley edge) spun
out of position. I see in other pictures it is 'in' position. However,
even in position you can see a nail head. This nail is way too close to
the slate edges. This is a leak. Your red arrow of the underside points
this out. It also seems, that even in position, it covers the lead by
only an inch or less.

I've mentioned elsewhere when I got the 'builder' to come back to see
the leak following his work he used this massive ladder requiring two
people to handle it and banged into everything he could. Him and his
ladder need to be banned.


Having said this, I am more intrigued as to where the leak bringing
the ceiling paper down is coming in? I am guessing the louvre doors are
at last 2 feet from the wall(Gable)?

It's about a staircase width away so 3'.

Once again, the cement bonding the
verge slate could the problem, but that's a guess?

Not sure again what you mean, is this what I might call a ridge tile?

Some slates above the
leaky area are sitting up very proud (10 rows down and 5 slates in is a
good example.) Driven rain will get to the upper nails. Water may find
it's way down via any path and may not be directly below ingress.


This one is weird. There never has been any sign of ingress or
visible sign of damp except if I paste the wallpaper back in 5yrs it
will be loose again but there is nothing visible from the the loft.
One thought has been condensation. The paper has been pulled off a
bit to see if there was any discolouration but there isn't.

Nails and nail holes in a slate are only a few inches above the
bottom edge of the slate that laps it.


It seems that the roof has been re-laid at some time but, the picture
of the inside shows that the felt is old?

The whole roof was relaid in the mid-80's and that was when the felt
was put in.

It appears to look brittle?

Apparantly it is the old style of felt. At the gutter edge most of it
has disintegrated.

I am struck by the dust spray on the felt to the right of the dormer
timbers too. This is an indication of wind making its way in from around
and below the level of the felt lap.

Interesting observation. Some of the felt lap is loose fitting and in
the odd place where there is a hole in the felt then air can obviously
be felt moving.


I was never a roof repairer, though I did a few during quieter times.
On the whole I only did complete re-roofs. I.e. All off; lath and felt,

Well you're welcome to come and do this.

Someone who has years of repair experience may solve your problem?

Have you a phone number for that someone?

Solving a leak is not as obvious as some may think.

I think this thread has proven that. I suspect though that the first
tiles on the left hand side of the dormer roof have always been a
problem and that until the brickwork around the windows was redone
(however badly) the water was able to escape down various routes both
inside and out. Now it is trapped and can only come down the inside
of the bedroom window. There has been no further ingress along the
top of the bedroom window nor the lounge window.

--
AnthonyL

AnthonyL wrote:

See yesterday's entries on http://lookhere.comuf.com/

No new entries since 17th ?

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 11:03:56 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:

See yesterday's entries on http://lookhere.comuf.com/

No new entries since 17th ?


Doh! - did everything except upload the new page - should be ok now.

--
AnthonyL

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Yes I have forced the ingress by spraying from the left hand side to
just above the dormer ridge. I can't readily get on the roof yet but
I held the camera at arm's length with one foot on the valley and took
a shot of the join between the valley and the tiles near the ridge -
not pretty and I suspect this has been a long lasting problem. The
'builder' couldn't even get the lead sealant properly into place.

See yesterday's entries on http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I'm going to try and put some tape over this section and repeat the
test just to make sure. Once I know what is the main cause I can then
hopefully proceed with getting remedial work done and know what to
test to be confident that that problem (and all others) have been
fixed.

On the closeup picture you have typed 'suspected ingress point' and an arrow
going to a small gap.
I doubt this is where it's getting in as the missed gap is between two
slates, anything that gets through that gap will end up on the lower slate
and make it's way into the valley.
I think you've photographed the wrong slate.
The one at the top (with cement and also a nail hole showing) is the one you
suspect, but looking at the bigger shot, the slate below this seems to stop
at least an inch past the third slate down, that is to say, the 3rd slate
down is short of the lead valley.

As an aside, if you are a bit overcautious about getting higher up or
putting a leg on the roof, this is because the tower feels wobbly and gives
the impression it might topple backwards.
To eliminate this, get a piece of timber, say 4X2, and longer than the width
of the inside of your window, then lash a rope to it and to the tower and
tighten it up until the tower becomes solid

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:51:16 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...

Yes I have forced the ingress by spraying from the left hand side to
just above the dormer ridge. I can't readily get on the roof yet but
I held the camera at arm's length with one foot on the valley and took
a shot of the join between the valley and the tiles near the ridge -
not pretty and I suspect this has been a long lasting problem. The
'builder' couldn't even get the lead sealant properly into place.

See yesterday's entries on http://lookhere.comuf.com/

I'm going to try and put some tape over this section and repeat the
test just to make sure. Once I know what is the main cause I can then
hopefully proceed with getting remedial work done and know what to
test to be confident that that problem (and all others) have been
fixed.

On the closeup picture you have typed 'suspected ingress point' and an arrow
going to a small gap.
I doubt this is where it's getting in as the missed gap is between two
slates, anything that gets through that gap will end up on the lower slate
and make it's way into the valley.
I think you've photographed the wrong slate.

The one at the top (with cement and also a nail hole showing) is the one you
suspect, but looking at the bigger shot, the slate below this seems to stop
at least an inch past the third slate down, that is to say, the 3rd slate
down is short of the lead valley.


I'll go up and have another look

As an aside, if you are a bit overcautious about getting higher up or
putting a leg on the roof, this is because the tower feels wobbly and gives
the impression it might topple backwards.
To eliminate this, get a piece of timber, say 4X2, and longer than the width
of the inside of your window, then lash a rope to it and to the tower and
tighten it up until the tower becomes solid



The tower is quite stable but even with one foot half way up the
valley I can't quite see. I don't know if it is ok to walk up the
valley (I can only slide down to the tower platform if I slip).

I was hoping to get my hands on a crawler but that is proving a bit
elusive and I need about 18'.

But now I've narrowed it down maybe it's time to get some quotes.

I'd plan probably to have the bottom third of the roof redone with the
new type of felt, the brickwork on the dormer rebuilt with a treated
lintel and the valleys replaced, plus some cleaning up of pointing on
the stack and main roof ridge tiles as well as any other tiles that
need a bit of attention.



--
AnthonyL

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
The tower is quite stable but even with one foot half way up the
valley I can't quite see. I don't know if it is ok to walk up the
valley (I can only slide down to the tower platform if I slip).

I was hoping to get my hands on a crawler but that is proving a bit
elusive and I need about 18'.


You can hire a cat ladder for about a tenner a day, cheaper for a week

But now I've narrowed it down maybe it's time to get some quotes.

I'd plan probably to have the bottom third of the roof redone with the
new type of felt, the brickwork on the dormer rebuilt with a treated
lintel and the valleys replaced, plus some cleaning up of pointing on
the stack and main roof ridge tiles as well as any other tiles that
need a bit of attention.

fibreglass valleys, obv, although new lead will last 70 years or more.
The new type of valley boards are like an upturned T.
You then tile right up to the upstand, meaning it's neater and there's no
pointing to be done, see here;
http://www.klober.co.uk/products.php...alle y+Trough
They're used quite a lot these days when joining two roofs that are
different materials, like this;
http://www.hambleside-danelaw.co.uk/...-up-with-lead/

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:12:40 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
The tower is quite stable but even with one foot half way up the
valley I can't quite see. I don't know if it is ok to walk up the
valley (I can only slide down to the tower platform if I slip).

I was hoping to get my hands on a crawler but that is proving a bit
elusive and I need about 18'.


You can hire a cat ladder for about a tenner a day, cheaper for a week

But now I've narrowed it down maybe it's time to get some quotes.

I'd plan probably to have the bottom third of the roof redone with the
new type of felt, the brickwork on the dormer rebuilt with a treated
lintel and the valleys replaced, plus some cleaning up of pointing on
the stack and main roof ridge tiles as well as any other tiles that
need a bit of attention.

fibreglass valleys, obv, although new lead will last 70 years or more.
The new type of valley boards are like an upturned T.
You then tile right up to the upstand, meaning it's neater and there's no
pointing to be done, see here;
http://www.klober.co.uk/products.php...alle y+Trough
They're used quite a lot these days when joining two roofs that are
different materials, like this;
http://www.hambleside-danelaw.co.uk/...-up-with-lead/


So more of a ridge than a valley then!

--
AnthonyL