Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each charge
costs one charge cycle.
Why?

Bill

wrote:
On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:25:13 AM UTC+1, JimK wrote:


A couple of those arent very practical with small buggy batteries. I'd also expect more vibration without suspension/q

You think elec fork lifts have suspension? Oh dear....

Pneumatic tyres do the same job, upto a point. Small golf or mobility things tend to have solid tyres, and 12Ah is small.


NT

Yes, that machine has solid tyres and no suspension.

Bill

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The bit about not keeping them topped up is interesting - after all that's
what a car does on a long journey. And my last battery - Bosch - did 11
years. By far and away the longest ever in some 50 years of owning cars.

The two 100Ah batteries on my motorhome that are the 'vehicle batteries'
have been in use since 1998. They are completely isolated when the
vehicle is parked. Obviously the vehicle is only used for about three
months in the year.

Bill

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
By the way it's interesting that the industry standard charger connector
is a 3-pin XLR?

They're made by the zillion, so cheap. I've just bought a 7 pin version.
From the same maker, exactly the same body etc, but approx 6 times the
price.

--
*Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/07/2014 18:32, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each
charge costs one charge cycle.
Why?


The life of the battery is defined in terms of the number of charges it
receives. If you charge it once a day, a life of 1,500 charges is about
five years, assuming 300 working days in a year. If you charge it twice
a day it is two and a half years.

--
Colin Bignell

On 29/07/2014 19:27, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 29/07/2014 18:32, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each
charge costs one charge cycle.
Why?


The life of the battery is defined in terms of the number of charges it
receives. If you charge it once a day, a life of 1,500 charges is about
five years, assuming 300 working days in a year. If you charge it twice
a day it is two and a half years.

My understanding of the situation with lead acid batteries is that
charging from 50% charge to fully charged only counts as about half a
cycle, and from 75% is only about a quarter of a cycle. This would also
seem to agree with the experiences of a lot of boaters I know of who use
lead acid batteries. If they run them to 25% charge each time, then
fully charge them, they don't last as many cycles as when they're run to
50% charge and replenished.

It certainly quoted that on my first mobile phone, which used a 2Ah SLA
battery.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 28/07/2014 11:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robert wrote:
Worth checking for a local mobility hire shop/garage and see what they
can offer. They are likely to use a cost effective product themselves
and their price premium may be acceptable.

Are you joking? They seem to mark up everything they sell by far more than
any other retailer. Suppose they guess many would think only a thief with
no conscience would do that to the disabled.

Okay I only posted 'cos our local garage hires mobility scooters out ( I
am in a tourist area) and when sourcing a replacement battery last year
for one I found their price was perfectly acceptable compared with eBay
and internet suppliers.
Of course they dont sell mobility scooters and do have a local
reputation to keep up.

Robert wrote:
On 28/07/2014 11:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robert wrote:
Worth checking for a local mobility hire shop/garage and see what they
can offer. They are likely to use a cost effective product themselves
and their price premium may be acceptable.

Are you joking? They seem to mark up everything they sell by far more
than
any other retailer. Suppose they guess many would think only a thief with
no conscience would do that to the disabled.

Okay I only posted 'cos our local garage hires mobility scooters out ( I
am in a tourist area) and when sourcing a replacement battery last year
for one I found their price was perfectly acceptable compared with eBay
and internet suppliers.
Of course they dont sell mobility scooters and do have a local
reputation to keep up.

Would be interesting to ask the local grocers etc who provide scooters,
what their experience is.

Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 29/07/2014 18:32, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each
charge costs one charge cycle.
Why?


The life of the battery is defined in terms of the number of charges it
receives. If you charge it once a day, a life of 1,500 charges is about
five years, assuming 300 working days in a year. If you charge it twice
a day it is two and a half years.


I don't think that answers the question; it just restates the situation.
What I mean is, why should a partial charge do as much damage as a full
one? And since deep discharge is said to be harmful, isn't it better to
avoid it by starting to charge when the battery is not deeply
discharged, even if that means the total number of charges is more? What
about regenerative braking, which subjects the battery to constant short
discharge then charge periods during the day?

Bill

On 29/07/2014 20:50, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/07/2014 19:27, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 29/07/2014 18:32, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each
charge costs one charge cycle.
Why?


The life of the battery is defined in terms of the number of charges it
receives. If you charge it once a day, a life of 1,500 charges is about
five years, assuming 300 working days in a year. If you charge it twice
a day it is two and a half years.

My understanding of the situation with lead acid batteries is that
charging from 50% charge to fully charged only counts as about half a
cycle, and from 75% is only about a quarter of a cycle. This would also
seem to agree with the experiences of a lot of boaters I know of who use
lead acid batteries. If they run them to 25% charge each time, then
fully charge them, they don't last as many cycles as when they're run to
50% charge and replenished.

Not all lead acid batteries are the same. Car batteries, which I suspect
most closely resemble boat batteries, are designed to discharge to
around 50% before getting a continuous trickle charge. Traction
batteries, as used in fork trucks, are expected regularly to go to
70%-80% discharged and then be recharged in a single (usually overnight)
charge. That results in different internal designs.

--
Colin Bignell

On 29/07/2014 21:45, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 29/07/2014 18:32, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each
charge costs one charge cycle.
Why?


The life of the battery is defined in terms of the number of charges
it receives. If you charge it once a day, a life of 1,500 charges is
about five years, assuming 300 working days in a year. If you charge
it twice a day it is two and a half years.


I don't think that answers the question; it just restates the situation.
What I mean is, why should a partial charge do as much damage as a full
one?

You might have to ask the designers of traction batteries that. I am
only going by the advice they give to fork truck users. Whether that
also applies to mobility scooter batteries, I have no idea.

And since deep discharge is said to be harmful, isn't it better to
avoid it by starting to charge when the battery is not deeply
discharged, even if that means the total number of charges is more?

Deep discharge is only harmful if the battery is not designed to handle
it. Traction batteries are designed regularly to go down to around 80%
discharged.

What
about regenerative braking, which subjects the battery to constant short
discharge then charge periods during the day?

AIUI, it seriously shortens the battery life, although that is, in part,
due to the high rate of the charging it may involve. OTOH, it increases
range, so the user has to trade that against battery life.

--
Colin Bignell

On 29/07/2014 23:06, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 29/07/2014 20:50, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/07/2014 19:27, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 29/07/2014 18:32, Bill Wright wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:

Avoid opportunistic charging (e.g. plugging in over lunch). Each
charge costs one charge cycle.
Why?


The life of the battery is defined in terms of the number of charges it
receives. If you charge it once a day, a life of 1,500 charges is about
five years, assuming 300 working days in a year. If you charge it twice
a day it is two and a half years.

My understanding of the situation with lead acid batteries is that
charging from 50% charge to fully charged only counts as about half a
cycle, and from 75% is only about a quarter of a cycle. This would also
seem to agree with the experiences of a lot of boaters I know of who use
lead acid batteries. If they run them to 25% charge each time, then
fully charge them, they don't last as many cycles as when they're run to
50% charge and replenished.

Not all lead acid batteries are the same. Car batteries, which I suspect
most closely resemble boat batteries, are designed to discharge to
around 50% before getting a continuous trickle charge. Traction
batteries, as used in fork trucks, are expected regularly to go to
70%-80% discharged and then be recharged in a single (usually overnight)
charge. That results in different internal designs.

Leisure batteries on boats are more akin to traction batteries than
starter batteries, being designed to deliver a low current for long
periods. The normal installation is one starter battery for the engine
and navigation lights and such, and at least one leisure battery for
domestic power. These are the ones that get the deep discharge on a
routine basis.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 21:45:43 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

What I mean is, why should a partial charge do as much damage as a full
one? And since deep discharge is said to be harmful, isn't it better to
avoid it by starting to charge when the battery is not deeply
discharged, even if that means the total number of charges is more?

I don't believe a partial discharge followed by a recharge is an issue in terms
of reducing the life by one cycle if:

a) you keep the level of charge retained in the battery above a certain
threshold, maybe 90%, possibly a bit lower

b)the charging regime used at that point of the discharge curve is one
recommended by the battery manufacturer with appropriate temperature
compensation

c) the charging is terminated at the correct point

Two or more decades ago one of the first manufacturers of SLA's used to produce
a very good reference book that explained all, not sure if it was ever published
as an electronic version, I might have a copy about somewhere in my library but
i won't be at home for another couple of months.

The top left image on this page indicates a typical cycle life in relation to
depth of discharge.

http://www.yuasaeurope.com/images/up..._shortform.pdf


--

The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 21:45:43 +0100, Bill wrote:

What I mean is, why should a partial charge do as much damage as a full
one? And since deep discharge is said to be harmful, isn't it better to
avoid it by starting to charge when the battery is not deeply
discharged, even if that means the total number of charges is more?

I don't believe a partial discharge followed by a recharge is an issue in terms
of reducing the life by one cycle if:

a) you keep the level of charge retained in the battery above a certain
threshold, maybe 90%, possibly a bit lower

b)the charging regime used at that point of the discharge curve is one
recommended by the battery manufacturer with appropriate temperature
compensation

c) the charging is terminated at the correct point

Two or more decades ago one of the first manufacturers of SLA's used to produce
a very good reference book that explained all, not sure if it was ever published
as an electronic version, I might have a copy about somewhere in my library but
i won't be at home for another couple of months.

The top left image on this page indicates a typical cycle life in relation to
depth of discharge.

http://www.yuasaeurope.com/images/up..._shortform.pdf



I see that lithium batteries are now available for golf carts.

On 30/07/2014 10:14, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 21:45:43 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

What I mean is, why should a partial charge do as much damage as a full
one? And since deep discharge is said to be harmful, isn't it better to
avoid it by starting to charge when the battery is not deeply
discharged, even if that means the total number of charges is more?

I don't believe a partial discharge followed by a recharge is an issue in terms
of reducing the life by one cycle if:

a) you keep the level of charge retained in the battery above a certain
threshold, maybe 90%, possibly a bit lower

b)the charging regime used at that point of the discharge curve is one
recommended by the battery manufacturer with appropriate temperature
compensation

c) the charging is terminated at the correct point

It is mostly violations of either leaving the battery flat and totally
discharged or gratuitously overcharging that shortens service lifetime.
Temperature variations are a factor in high power or fast chargers but
some typical cheap domestic chargers are generally not that smart and so
need timing discipline to avoid damaging the battery accidentally.

This heuristic applies to most rechargable batteries to a greater or
lesser extend. The only chemistry that could tolerate enormous abuse was
the old wet plate NiFe cells which were almost indestructible provided
that you followed their top up maintenance procedures.

Two or more decades ago one of the first manufacturers of SLA's used to produce
a very good reference book that explained all, not sure if it was ever published
as an electronic version, I might have a copy about somewhere in my library but
i won't be at home for another couple of months.

The top left image on this page indicates a typical cycle life in relation to
depth of discharge.

http://www.yuasaeurope.com/images/up..._shortform.pdf

Yaesu are as good as any although for less demanding roles you can find
other acceptable brands. The key is not to buy the badged ripoff priced
ones that the sharks who sell mobility scooters have on the shelf.

I found the 17Ah SLAs about the best price last time I was looking. You
have to be careful to make sure the physical dimensions and connnectors
are compatible with the enclosure they have to fit into. In general a
higher capacity battery will just last a bit longer on a single charge.

Regards,
Martin Brown

"Capitol" wrote

I see that lithium batteries are now available for golf carts.

Was going to suggest similar, convert to li-po batteries, the appropriate
charger and BMS,
if you really want to do the job properly, fit a brushless motor and
controller,

the buggy should then be able to travel about 6 times the distance on a
charge and weigh uch less than with the lead acid batts, or if you put in
the same weight of li-po batteries as the lead acids, you could prolly get
half way from lands end to john on gorats on a charge

In article ,
Gazz wrote:
I see that lithium batteries are now available for golf carts.

Was going to suggest similar, convert to li-po batteries, the
appropriate charger and BMS, if you really want to do the job properly,
fit a brushless motor and controller,

I'd guess you could buy several new scooters for that cost. ;-)

--
* I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, July 28, 2014 1:30:28 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:12:27 PM UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:
In article ,
scribeth thus
On Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:47:20 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:16:13 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

12 V 14 AHr �26.40 inc VAT free shipping (online orders only, 2-5
working days).
You can get some mobility/golf 12Ahs at about half that.
I'm sure Mr Wright would like to know where from and if they are from
this unknown best for golf/mobility brand.
If I'd found it I'd have posted it. All I can remember is it was the one after I
looked at Ritar - fwiw!
I'm likely to go where they are some time this week, will have a look if I remember. It wasnt a brand I know much about, only that they didnt score much in the complaints department and were cheap.

The batteries are Pro Rider. I don't know where they were bought from, and know very little about the brand. They were half the price of the previous unimpressive Yuasas.


NT

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:33:30 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

snip

Since the near fire incident I've "got at" my UPS and reduced the
charging voltage by about a volt (remove an R, fit multiturn pot in it's
place) and fitted a fan (remove housing for the SNMP card, fit PC
expansion slot extract fan and MIC502 based fan speed controller).
The UPS that used to run at "rather warm to hot" is now "slightly cool".
I'll be interested to see how long this set of batteries last,
around 3 years has been the previous life.

Dave,

Could you provide more details please?

I'm looking at the replacement of a number of UPS battery sets and would
like to prevent the overcharging. The fan/ventilation I can sort Ta!

Reply to should work

Nick

--
Carrot was two metres tall but he'd been brought up as a dwarf,
and then further up as a human.
(Men at Arms)
13:20:01 up 2 days, 1:27, 6 users, load average: 0.66, 0.73, 0.66

The Nomad wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

I've "got at" my UPS and reduced the charging voltage by about a
volt (remove an R, fit multiturn pot in it's place) and fitted a
fan

Could you provide more details please?

I'm looking at the replacement of a number of UPS battery sets and would
like to prevent the overcharging. The fan/ventilation I can sort Ta!

Reply to should work

Reply here should interest more than a few owners ...

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 13:57:06 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

I've "got at" my UPS and reduced the charging voltage by about a
volt (remove an R, fit multiturn pot in it's place) and fitted a
fan

Could you provide more details please?

I'm looking at the replacement of a number of UPS battery sets and

would like to prevent the overcharging.

Reply to should work

Reply here should interest more than a few owners ...

Fear not I very very rarely reply via email to usenet posts.

All gleaned from the 'net but not many bookmarks and the details will
vary a bit from UPS model to model. I have a Smart UPS 700inet and
all I did was remove one resistor and replace it with a multiturn pot
superglued near the board edge so it could be adjusted once the unit
has been reassembled. CPC part Nos:

RE06697 Trimmer 25 turn 50k
CS06779 System Exhaust Blower

You'll probably also need to get into the programing mode of the unit
to "calibrate" the voltage measurement, for that you'll need a
terminal program of some sort.

Some web links to start you off.

http://www.badcaps.net/forum/printth...p?t=7872&pp=40
http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_sma..._float_voltage

I found the schematics somewhere as well which helped tie the
snippets gleaned together.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Some web links to start you off.

http://www.badcaps.net/forum/printth...p?t=7872&pp=40
http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_sma..._float_voltage


thanks, according to

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/v...p?f=6&t=109171

if they're they SUA models rather than the SU models, you can simply
adjust the float voltage rather than needing a H/W mod, unfortunately
all three of mine are SU models