[Martin Brown]

I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale

My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to
a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious
damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get
a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[nightjar]

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale


My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to
a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious
damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get
a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

--
Colin Bignell

[A.Lee]

Jethro_uk wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....

Indeed. 2 people have died in front of me recently. I asked about some
training in case it happened again.
From a Cardiac Team Nurse :
"An AED is a fantastic piece of kit as long as it's used by trained
operators. The last price I saw quoted was around the £1200 mark,
that also included training for up to 5 people.

An interesting stat I read a few weeks ago about trained A&E staff on
finding a pulse on an unconscious casualty, 70% couldn't locate one!
even though it was present. Which gives the occasional First Aider with
rusty skills next to no chance."

So, they are fine if used by someone with training, utterly useless, and
maybe causing more damge if used by untrained general public.

--
Alan
To reply by mail, change '+' to 'plus'

[Phi]

We have first responders.....who are trained nurses.

[JimK[_3_]]

........And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen miles away?

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

Could be another 'lip service' this..

Jim K

[Fredxxx]

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale


My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to
a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious
damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get
a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

On my last First Aid training course, it was stated that a first aider
has never been sued for providing first aid. It would be interesting if
that is really the case.

These defibrillators are meant to be smart enough not to injure a
patient. Even so, if the individual has been trained and competent, then
I don't see how negligence can follow.

I'm sure it is not beyond the capability of the Parish Council to obtain
insurance. It ought to be cheap!

[Peter Percival]

Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale
[...]
I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Do you mean that as a result of seeing it on television you formed that
opinion?


--
[Dancing is] a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire.
G.B. Shaw quoted in /New Statesman/, 23 March 1962

[DerbyBorn[_5_]]

Fredxxx wrote in :

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS
initiative to install community defibrillators in such locations
including our parish. The community is expected to pay for them and
NHS for the box - the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...defibrillator-
project-
under-way-hambleton-richmondshire-and-eskdale


My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed
to a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some
serious damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for
it. They get a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then
what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

On my last First Aid training course, it was stated that a first aider
has never been sued for providing first aid. It would be interesting
if that is really the case.

These defibrillators are meant to be smart enough not to injure a
patient. Even so, if the individual has been trained and competent,
then I don't see how negligence can follow.

I'm sure it is not beyond the capability of the Parish Council to
obtain insurance. It ought to be cheap!


One that I am aware of is in a locked case that can only be unlocked
using a combination given by the ambulance service - then they will be
on their way. (However, it recently got stolen)

One at work - volunteers trained to use it - given instructions about
shaving hairy chests.

[DerbyBorn[_5_]]

Theft:
http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Thie...ipment-bought-
Derby/story-21325447-detail/story.html

[Jonathan]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:00:13 AM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote

regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative

to install community defibrillators in such locations including our

parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -

the cost is roughly �1000. Brief description he



http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale



My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns

have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its

members personal liability and the personal liability of any well

meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.



There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard

everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to

a days training will be given to a select few.



I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad

indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS

that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.



In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the

lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?

Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on

public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?



Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious

damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get

a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?



Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?

What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?



(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)



Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely

entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.



--

Regards,

Martin Brown

There are several around here in South Warwickshire, including one on the wall of our village pub.

Jonathan

[Adam Aglionby]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:00:13 AM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote

regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative

to install community defibrillators in such locations including our

parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -

the cost is roughly �1000. Brief description he



http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale



My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns

have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its

members personal liability and the personal liability of any well

meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.



There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard

everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to

a days training will be given to a select few.



I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad

indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS

that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.



In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the

lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?

Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on

public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?



Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious

damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get

a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?



Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?

What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?



(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)



Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely

entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.



--

Regards,

Martin Brown

Has no one been in an airport recently...common sight.

From another forum;
" have had 6 people have heart attacks in the time we've had them (3 million people per year footfall - it's nothing that we're doing!), 4 of whom have been saved by the devices"


"They're a pretty incredible piece of kit. The size of a lunchbox, and anybody can use one! Come across an unconscious non-breathing casualty, grab the defib, open the lid and it tells you what to do. Place 2 sticky pads where the label on the pad shows you (one on the right collar bone, one on the left side of the body near the bottom of the rib cage - if you get them the wrong way round though then it knows and can switch around) and let the machine analyse the heart rhythm. It'll tell you if a shock is advised, at which point you just stand back and press a button. It then does a metronome count for 30 compressions, before repeating the process over again. It won't let you give a shock if it's not safe to do so"

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=61869

In summary, ignorance is a killer, the sooner you can get one fitted the better.

[AnthonyL]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 11:59:15 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale


My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to
a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious
damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get
a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.


We have one in our old red telephone box. The cost was around £1000
and there are maintenance/running costs involved though BT maintain
the power for free. We got the money to pay for it through one of the
100's of grants that are available to villages with worthwhile
projects.

On my last First Aid training course, it was stated that a first aider
has never been sued for providing first aid. It would be interesting if
that is really the case.

These defibrillators are meant to be smart enough not to injure a
patient. Even so, if the individual has been trained and competent, then
I don't see how negligence can follow.


Whilst many in the village have been on a 2hr session that was a
couple of years ago and there is no "trained and competent" individual
nominated. You call 999, they identify the nearby presence of a defib
unit and give you the code for it if that is what they see as the
emergency. You or someone runs off to get it whilst hopefully someone
else is administering CPR which appears to be the most important thing
to keep going.

I'm sure it is not beyond the capability of the Parish Council to obtain
insurance. It ought to be cheap!

I'm not sure that it is a Parish Council responsibility or liability.

The defrib unit doesn't have any affect on someone who doesn't need
it. If it is not all done correctly then someone who was going to die
anyway (or at that point is probably clinically dead already) dies.

That was my recollection of it all. I'm sure my wife remembers less
than me which is worrying.


--
AnthonyL

[F Murtz]

Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...lator-project-
under-way-hambleton-richmondshire-and-eskdale


My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed
to a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious
damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They
get a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....


It decides for you.

[tony sayer]

In article , JimK
scribeth thus
.......And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen
miles away?

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

**** as they say happens.. I don't expect you'd get a lot for one down
the rub a dub somehow..


Could be another 'lip service' this..

Not really..

Jim K

Well as they say in gods chosen county "owt's better than nowt" and if
it were me I'd hope that someone was brave enough to give the machine a
try at least..

Tried asking the makers of such devices for their opinions and or a
letter to the health authority as to whether or not they could indemnify
you against any claims?. Or more likely than not a shopping centre or
railway station they sometimes have them.

These are more commonplace these days so I suppose some cases may have
come to court theres a damm good website for those sodded if I can
remember the name, will post if I find it but I except you really need
something better then what we the DIY mob can come up with.

Having said that one of my daughters did CPR on a bloke a few years ago
and kept him going long enough for the pros to take over, he did survive
the event..

She like other daughter did benefit from what at first might appear to
be a bit of a social club the good ole St John Ambulance:-)..


--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

Whilst many in the village have been on a 2hr session that was a
couple of years ago and there is no "trained and competent" individual
nominated. You call 999, they identify the nearby presence of a defib
unit and give you the code for it if that is what they see as the
emergency. You or someone runs off to get it whilst hopefully someone
else is administering CPR which appears to be the most important thing
to keep going.

FWIW a mate of mine (now moved away) was a first responder out in one of
the villages to the north of Cambridge in the Fens, where it can be a
while before an ambulance gets there. I do know he has used the machines
before and described it as a doddle..

--
Tony Sayer

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 12:00:02 PM UTC+1, Peter Percival wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.
Do you mean that as a result of seeing it on television you formed that
opinion?

I presume Mr Bignell was referring to a programme a little more scientifically thorough than Ideal World ...

Owain

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 12:16:25 PM UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
One at work - volunteers trained to use it - given instructions about
shaving hairy chests.

Mmm that's risky, all sorts of possibilities for cuts and infection :-)

Owain

[bert[_3_]]

In message , A.Lee
writes
Jethro_uk wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....

Indeed. 2 people have died in front of me recently. I asked about some
training in case it happened again.
From a Cardiac Team Nurse :
"An AED is a fantastic piece of kit as long as it's used by trained
operators. The last price I saw quoted was around the £1200 mark,
that also included training for up to 5 people.

An interesting stat I read a few weeks ago about trained A&E staff on
finding a pulse on an unconscious casualty, 70% couldn't locate one!
even though it was present. Which gives the occasional First Aider with
rusty skills next to no chance."

So, they are fine if used by someone with training, utterly useless, and
maybe causing more damge if used by untrained general public.

These things come with talking instructions. It is the device itself
which decides to shock, not the operator. The training consists of how
to switch it on and how to attach the pads. Oh yes and shout "shocking"
if the machine tells you to.
--
bert

[David Martel[_2_]]

Martin,

I have used these devices in training sessions and they are quite easy to
use. Pretty much fool-proof.
They do require regular maintenance and supplies which will need to be
paid for. The usual morons will steal or vandalize them so insurance may be
wise.
The success rate of cardio-pulmonary resusciation by amatuers is very
low. Most of those who will be treated with these devices as part of CPR
will die. When people die suits are born. So liability insurance for these
devices (or protective laws) is a must.

Good luck,
Dave M.

[Bill Wright[_2_]]

The ones I've seen in N Yorks have a dedicated landline. You pick the
phone up, the operator gives you the code to access the machine, then
guides you through its use.

I'm interested in defibs because one saved my wife's life.

Bill

[Dennis@home]

On 10/07/2014 11:34, A.Lee wrote:
Jethro_uk wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....

Indeed. 2 people have died in front of me recently. I asked about some
training in case it happened again.
From a Cardiac Team Nurse :
"An AED is a fantastic piece of kit as long as it's used by trained
operators. The last price I saw quoted was around the £1200 mark,
that also included training for up to 5 people.

An interesting stat I read a few weeks ago about trained A&E staff on
finding a pulse on an unconscious casualty, 70% couldn't locate one!
even though it was present. Which gives the occasional First Aider with
rusty skills next to no chance."

So, they are fine if used by someone with training, utterly useless, and
maybe causing more damge if used by untrained general public.


They wont shock someone unless the computer is sure.
They are far better than trained people at deciding when not to.
They aren't just defibs they are ecg machines.

[Martin Brown]

On 10/07/2014 11:35, JimK wrote:
.......And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen miles away?

That might still be hours better than the ambulance service.

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Good question. Since it takes two to do a reliable CPR you need at least
one more person present when the casualty occurs (or a means to summon
them - I presume a 999 call for heart attack will stay open).

I can see the point of them in community buildings where there is a good
chance of someone who knows what to do being present. I can't really see
how it will work for an incident that occurs in the home.

Even if the thing is easy to use there is a world of difference between
doing it to an inanimate Anatomical Annie and a real casualty. Some of
what has been posted has been very helpful on the positive case for
having one - in particular this info

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=61869

But there is still a real concern about legal liability with the
predatory ambulance chasing lawyers always circling in the wings.

The PC's concern comes form the fact that it would likely be sited on
the registered village green and as such it's responsibility. Checking
it regularly once a week sounds like a bit of a bind too.

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

Nothing although the resale value is likely to be low.
Doesn't stop them nicking much cheaper life belts though

They prefer catalytic converters off Landrovers round here - the extra
ground clearance makes them easier to remove apparently.

Could be another 'lip service' this..

The cynics in our community think putting one in will be used as an
excuse to downgrade the ambulance service still further.

Actually that is unfair to the ambulance service - they are doing their
best but with most of their kit parked up outside A&E for hours on end
waiting to hand over patients to already full hospitals.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Adam Aglionby]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 1:44:58 PM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:

SNIPPED
Doesn't stop them nicking much cheaper life belts though

Is this not a replay of the don`t sweep snow off your pavement , you could get sued nonsense,

Seen the argument about liablity played out over lifebelts in a coastal village.

After accident that left child in permanent coma, campaign to reinstate lifebelts, council says they always got nicked and are concerned about liability.

Concerned resident buys one on Amazon and mounts it on sea wall.

Council suddenly discover precedentd absolving them of liability on lifebelts provided round country park loch,within days have several new lifebelts join concerned residents one.

Last kids from holiday park that tried to nick one were rounded up within 2 hours, no one likes someone ****ing about with life saving equipment.




--

Regards,

Martin Brown

[nightjar]

On 10/07/2014 11:11, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:
....
I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....


That was one of the functions of the machine I saw demonstrated. It
really was designed to be used by just about anybody, without training,
unlike older machines, which need a trained operator.

--
Colin Bignell

[nightjar]

On 10/07/2014 11:35, JimK wrote:
.......And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen miles away?

Not required for the latest generation machines.

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Anybody at hand who wants to help the victim and who has seen the box on
the wall.

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

The one in a local garden centre is marked as sounding an alarm if the
wall box is opened. Presumably that is both as an anti-theft deterrent
and to summon the centre's first aiders.

--
Colin Bignell

[news[_7_]]

On 10/07/2014 14:17, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 10/07/2014 11:11, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:
...
I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....


That was one of the functions of the machine I saw demonstrated. It
really was designed to be used by just about anybody, without training,
unlike older machines, which need a trained operator.


This website

http://www.communityheartbeat.org.uk/why.php

seems to confirm just that.

" An AED is a portable defibrillator especially designed for people with
no medical background. When applied to the victim, voice commands and
screen messages will guide the user step-by-step through the process and
its intelligent technology will only allow it to shock a €˜shockable
heart rhythm."

--
Chris

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 12:52:47 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , JimK
scribeth thus
.......And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen
miles away?

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

**** as they say happens.. I don't expect you'd get a lot for one down
the rub a dub somehow..


A lot of rural places where there are not too many scrotes have a K6
telephone kiosk that BT would like to remove due to lack of use. but
residents wish to retain because it looks pretty and is part of the
scenery. BT are asking parish councils to take on the maintenance of
some if they want them to remain. They could become the ECG Point.
While not totally secure it would not be that difficult to equip with
a surveillance camera that observed any scrote which may discourage
some ,power (used for the light) and a phone line will be available to
be reused. Have a loud audible alarm go off as soon as the machine is
removed,in a genuine emergency it won't matter providing it's not so
loud enough to give someone a heart attack so you need two machines.
Nothing like that can be 100% secure ,you would get instances of
schoolboys attempting to revive a dead rabbit . All depends on the
sort of place a community is.

G.Harman

[John Williamson]

On 10/07/2014 11:11, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....

By attaching the electrodes to the victim's chest. It does a quick and
dirty ECG, then fires itself off if and only if it's of the opinion that
defibrillation would help.

They really are fairly foolproof.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 12:52:47 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , JimK
scribeth thus
.......And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen
miles away?

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

**** as they say happens.. I don't expect you'd get a lot for one down
the rub a dub somehow..

You may be a little off the mark on that one since Sarah Millican,
effectively endorsed its use as a 'sex toy' in a recent 'best bits'
anthology. There may well be an increased demand in the 'stealing to
order' trade by the less educated but more perverted scrotes.

Could be another 'lip service' this..

An unfortunate, yet so apposite, turn of phrase in view of S
Millican's recent endorsement. :-)
--
J B Good

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 11:51:16 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:00:13 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale


Don't know much about them, but there's been an active campaign
running in West Cornwall for some time. See http://tinyurl.com/naguctq
from six months ago.

It was my impression that the PAD machine itself analysed the
casualty's heart-beat and gave simple instructions to the user, so
there'd be no risk of someone being 'shocked' who's heart was beating
normally, but I might be wrong on that.

This wiki article explains the situation quite well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
--
J B Good

[Gazz]

"David Martel" wrote in message
...
Martin,

I have used these devices in training sessions and they are quite easy
to use. Pretty much fool-proof.
They do require regular maintenance and supplies which will need to be
paid for. The usual morons will steal or vandalize them so insurance may
be wise.
The success rate of cardio-pulmonary resusciation by amatuers is very
low. Most of those who will be treated with these devices as part of CPR
will die. When people die suits are born. So liability insurance for these
devices (or protective laws) is a must.

So what happens if in years time, someone has a hear attack near where the
defib was going to be located, but it hasn't because people were worried
about liability if they used it and something bad happened,

If the heart attack victim dies, could the family sue the council for not
installing the life saving equipment when they had the chance?

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 11:36:01 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 11:59:15 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he

http://www.ruralyorkshire.org.uk/new...re-and-eskdale


My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns
have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its
members personal liability and the personal liability of any well
meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard
everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to
a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad
indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS
that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the
lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault?
Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on
public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious
damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get
a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative?
What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely
entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.


We have one in our old red telephone box. The cost was around £1000
and there are maintenance/running costs involved though BT maintain
the power for free. We got the money to pay for it through one of the
100's of grants that are available to villages with worthwhile
projects.

On my last First Aid training course, it was stated that a first aider
has never been sued for providing first aid. It would be interesting if
that is really the case.

These defibrillators are meant to be smart enough not to injure a
patient. Even so, if the individual has been trained and competent, then
I don't see how negligence can follow.


Whilst many in the village have been on a 2hr session that was a
couple of years ago and there is no "trained and competent" individual
nominated. You call 999, they identify the nearby presence of a defib
unit and give you the code for it if that is what they see as the
emergency. You or someone runs off to get it whilst hopefully someone
else is administering CPR which appears to be the most important thing
to keep going.

I'm sure it is not beyond the capability of the Parish Council to obtain
insurance. It ought to be cheap!

I'm not sure that it is a Parish Council responsibility or liability.

The defrib unit doesn't have any affect on someone who doesn't need
it. If it is not all done correctly then someone who was going to die
anyway (or at that point is probably clinically dead already) dies.

That was my recollection of it all. I'm sure my wife remembers less
than me which is worrying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator

Should help refresh your memory.
--
J B Good

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 12:56:05 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Whilst many in the village have been on a 2hr session that was a
couple of years ago and there is no "trained and competent" individual
nominated. You call 999, they identify the nearby presence of a defib
unit and give you the code for it if that is what they see as the
emergency. You or someone runs off to get it whilst hopefully someone
else is administering CPR which appears to be the most important thing
to keep going.

FWIW a mate of mine (now moved away) was a first responder out in one of
the villages to the north of Cambridge in the Fens, where it can be a
while before an ambulance gets there. I do know he has used the machines
before and described it as a doddle..

Sorry for the repetition but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator

would seem to confirm your friend's description.
--
J B Good

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 15:30:33 +0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 14:35:28 +0100, news wrote:

On 10/07/2014 14:17, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 10/07/2014 11:11, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:26:41 +0100, Nightjar \"cpb\"@ wrote:
...
I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see,
it is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used
by just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....


That was one of the functions of the machine I saw demonstrated. It
really was designed to be used by just about anybody, without training,
unlike older machines, which need a trained operator.


This website

http://www.communityheartbeat.org.uk/why.php

seems to confirm just that.

" An AED is a portable defibrillator especially designed for people with
no medical background. When applied to the victim, voice commands and
screen messages will guide the user step-by-step through the process and
its intelligent technology will only allow it to shock a ‘shockable’
heart rhythm."

Can you switch to Polish ? Or Urdu ?

I didn't spot any reference to language choice in the wiki article.

I'd imagine the language would be preset for its intended
geographical location. Language choice might eventually become an
optional feature in later models (they'll still startup using the
default language for the region - when time is of the essence, the
last thing you want is any additional time consuming choices being
forced on the 'Good Samaritan').
--
J B Good

[Dennis@home]

On 10/07/2014 13:07, David Martel wrote:
Martin,

I have used these devices in training sessions and they are quite easy to
use. Pretty much fool-proof.
They do require regular maintenance and supplies which will need to be
paid for. The usual morons will steal or vandalize them so insurance may be
wise.
The success rate of cardio-pulmonary resusciation by amatuers is very
low. Most of those who will be treated with these devices as part of CPR
will die. When people die suits are born. So liability insurance for these
devices (or protective laws) is a must.

Good luck,
Dave M.




What drivel!
You can't be sued for doing your best unless you are a trained
professional that should know better.

I bet you think you can be sued for clearing the snow off the pavement too.

[The Medway Handyman]

On 10/07/2014 10:00, Martin Brown wrote:
I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote
regions varies from slow to **** poor. There is a joint NHS initiative
to install community defibrillators in such locations including our
parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box -
the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description he


London Ambulance Service have a scheme called Shockingly Easy. They
will supply (at a cost) an automatic defib & provide annual training.

Interesting;

" A defibrillator should always be taken to a seriously
ill or injured patient, but on occasions people
responsible for the machine might be unaware that a
999 call has been made to the ambulance service.

We have an automatic alerting system, which will
inform the accredited organisation when there is a
medical emergency nearby. As well as ensuring that
someone with life-support skills is informed, the call
will alert staff to the arrival of ambulance crews.

We will therefore require a minimum of one and a
maximum of five telephone numbers that will be
contacted in the event of a 999 call being made from
the defibrillator site. These numbers can include the
reception or security desk, a duty manager’s mobile
and any on-site medical personnel".

More at
http://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/ca...billators.aspx


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[The Medway Handyman]

On 10/07/2014 13:44, Martin Brown wrote:
..

Actually that is unfair to the ambulance service - they are doing their
best but with most of their kit parked up outside A&E for hours on end
waiting to hand over patients to already full hospitals.

Not to mention picking up drunks/druggies etc and the 'maternataxi' runs
where they get to the call, decide to take the pregnant woman to
hospital (to cover their own arse's) and the husband says "I'll follow
behind in the car".


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[The Medway Handyman]

On 10/07/2014 11:59, Fredxxx wrote:


On my last First Aid training course, it was stated that a first aider
has never been sued for providing first aid. It would be interesting if
that is really the case.

One of Becky's crew mates was off duty out shopping & came across a
cardiac arrest. They have a duty of care and are obliged to help.

In giving CPR she broke two of the blokes ribs. Not uncommon, they are
trained that the ribs can be sorted - if the patient lives.

When he recovered he threatened to sue.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[nightjar]

On 10/07/2014 18:34, Dennis@home wrote:
....
I bet you think you can be sued for clearing the snow off the pavement too.

Nothing to stop somebody suing you for that. However, to succeed they
would need to demonstrate that you were negligent in the way that you
cleared the snow, with the result that they suffered loss or injury.

--
Colin Bignell

[Bollocky William]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:11:01 +0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it
is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by
just about anybody.

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....

Yes. That is bloody frightening. I have been trained to use one but I
am not anxious to do so and I now wish I had either not been trained
or that I had been trained more thoroughly:-(