I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

In article ,
wrote:
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

Hope you're also re-enforcing the floor as I don't reckon ordinary
chipboard is rigid enough for ceramic tiles.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Throw it out with the chipboard & replace with very well braced plywood.

Jim K

On 25/04/2014 15:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

Hope you're also re-enforcing the floor as I don't reckon ordinary
chipboard is rigid enough for ceramic tiles.


I did the bathroom and shower room quite a few years go and they've been
fine, but I guess the kitchen sees much more use. It seems that 6mm
Hardie Backer or no-more-ply boards would solve both problems so I'll do
some more investigating.

On 25/04/14 15:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

Hope you're also re-enforcing the floor as I don't reckon ordinary
chipboard is rigid enough for ceramic tiles.

It is IF its braced on siund joists


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 25/04/14 15:21, wrote:
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

nothing wrong with the chip but the glue is an issue

I found tiling costs with decent tiles and cement in the £20-£30 a sq
meter range.

At that sort of price I would STRONGLY recommend you rip up the chip and
lay fresh.

That also gives you the option of adding more support for the floor -
any flexing will make for loss and or cracked tiles.

Herring bone struts help a lot.

Or, if you have the depth, add another layer of chip or something else
on top.

My point will be spending a LOT on a quality finish and that even with
flexible tile adhesive you will get cracking unless the floor is pretty
rigid.

So don't try and save a few hundred quid using old chip covered in glue.
You probably could rough it up but why take the risk?

Lift that chip and lay side by side beams and herringbone strut the
thing, and then put down new chip and use quality flexible adhesive or a
good fast setter - I've used ardurit - and then do a pukka job on the
expensive tiles.

Flexible adhesive is a bodge to get round a crap floor. Make a good
floor and you wont need it.






--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 25/04/14 16:25, JimK wrote:
Throw it out with the chipboard & replace with very well braced plywood.

Jim K

Nothing wrong with chip - just as stiff as ply - but well braced is the key.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 25/04/14 15:21, wrote:
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

Personally I'd overboard or replace the chip with 18mm WBP ply.

Then the correct adhesive is a cementious tile adhesive with Class S2
flexibility plus a flexible grout.

Look at BAL and Mapei adhesives - some are Class S2 as as, some have an
additive liquid that can be added to vanilla powered adhesive to get the
flexibility required.

Please understand that "flexible" != rubber. It adds just enough "give"
to allow the very slight flexing of 18mm ply to not cause problems. You
still need a basically solid and unmoving substrate - chip would be too
chancy for my liking.

+1 what Tim said.

Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

Jim K

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Please understand that "flexible" != rubber. It adds just enough "give"
to allow the very slight flexing of 18mm ply to not cause problems. You
still need a basically solid and unmoving substrate - chip would be too
chancy for my liking.

Pal has a chipboard floor laid on polystyrene over concrete. Had it tiled
using the correct adhesive. Several broke.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/04/2014 21:09, Tim Watts wrote:
On 25/04/14 15:21, wrote:
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well
stuck-down with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible
adhesives for floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something
special?

Personally I'd overboard or replace the chip with 18mm WBP ply.

Then the correct adhesive is a cementious tile adhesive with Class S2
flexibility plus a flexible grout.

Look at BAL and Mapei adhesives - some are Class S2 as as, some have an
additive liquid that can be added to vanilla powered adhesive to get the
flexibility required.

Please understand that "flexible" != rubber. It adds just enough "give"
to allow the very slight flexing of 18mm ply to not cause problems. You
still need a basically solid and unmoving substrate - chip would be too
chancy for my liking.

When I did my kitchen floor a good few years ago, I ripped up the 12mm
chipboard to reveal the joists were unevenly spaced and 3 were rotten in
some place.
The original floor joist were something 4 x 2, so I then replaced every
floor joist with 5 x 2.1/2 I think. They were bigger anyway. I then put
several noggins in between the new joists to make the whole lot solid
and secure. I used 20mm marine ply on top of the joist and then 6mm wpb
on top of that which was nailed every 18/20 inches down on to the 20mm ply.
Ceramic tile on top of that and the floor has been sound and solid ever
since.

Which goes to show that its preparation which counts.

On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:
+1 what Tim said.

Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.


Jim K



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 26/04/14 10:02, Bob H wrote:
Which goes to show that its preparation which counts.
+1

Al these people wittering on about flex adhesive and water getting to
their chip means they are expecting to do a bodged job.

Don't bodge the job and it will be fine forever

And that means a no flex floor and lots of bracing.





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 26/04/14 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/14 10:02, Bob H wrote:
Which goes to show that its preparation which counts.
+1

Al these people wittering on about flex adhesive and water getting to
their chip means they are expecting to do a bodged job.

There is nothing "bodgy" about flexible adhesive - it is the correct
material for this application.


Don't bodge the job and it will be fine forever

And that means a no flex floor and lots of bracing.


Unless the floor is solid screed it needs flexible adhesive.

So a sample of one ?!?

YMMV

Jim K

FSV of finger crossing...

Jim K

wrote in message
...
I'm about to tile a kitchen floor (green chipboard) with ceramic tiles.
The floor was previously covered with vinyl that was very well stuck-down
with something like evo-stik. Will the regular flexible adhesives for
floor tiles adhere to old evo-stik or do I need something special?

Do you know what is under the chipboard?

if it's a house built in the last 15 to 20 years, the ground floors are
likely laid directly on polystyrene slabs, which are laid on a vapour
barrier and the earth.

Over time the polystyrene compresses in the most walked paths, you may
notice a little creaking or movement, but it's not often that much of a
problem...... until someone decides to lay a rigid flooring,

My parents did just this, and had 3 years of hell trying to stop the tiles
cracking, or the joints turning to powder, and the tiles coming unstuck,

As they had no intention of replacing the kitchen, they were not going to
rip the floor up and put down beams, they tried injecting expanding foam
through the chipboard in the most compressed areas (after ripping up the
tiles to do it again), this seem'd to help in those areas, but other areas
soon sunk and allowed the new tiles to crack,

They eventually gave up and had some cushion flooring put down, looks so
much better, no chance of it cracking, and much warmer to walk on in bare
feet.

+1

Unless you like a gamble...

Jim K

On 26/04/14 16:46, Gazz wrote:

if it's a house built in the last 15 to 20 years, the ground floors are
likely laid directly on polystyrene slabs, which are laid on a vapour
barrier and the earth.

Directly on earth? Sounds poor.

Over time the polystyrene compresses in the most walked paths, you may
notice a little creaking or movement, but it's not often that much of a
problem...... until someone decides to lay a rigid flooring,

My parents did just this, and had 3 years of hell trying to stop the
tiles cracking, or the joints turning to powder, and the tiles coming
unstuck,

But I can testify that chip over polystyrene over beam+block compressed
badly in the doorways due to concentrated traffic. I found this when
laying laminate in a flat.

As they had no intention of replacing the kitchen, they were not going
to rip the floor up and put down beams, they tried injecting expanding
foam through the chipboard in the most compressed areas (after ripping
up the tiles to do it again), this seem'd to help in those areas, but
other areas soon sunk and allowed the new tiles to crack,

They eventually gave up and had some cushion flooring put down, looks so
much better, no chance of it cracking, and much warmer to walk on in
bare feet.

On 26/04/14 18:20, Tim Watts wrote:
On 26/04/14 16:46, Gazz wrote:

if it's a house built in the last 15 to 20 years, the ground floors are
likely laid directly on polystyrene slabs, which are laid on a vapour
barrier and the earth.

Directly on earth? Sounds poor.


against building regs too


Over time the polystyrene compresses in the most walked paths, you may
notice a little creaking or movement, but it's not often that much of a
problem...... until someone decides to lay a rigid flooring,

My parents did just this, and had 3 years of hell trying to stop the
tiles cracking, or the joints turning to powder, and the tiles coming
unstuck,

But I can testify that chip over polystyrene over beam+block compressed
badly in the doorways due to concentrated traffic. I found this when
laying laminate in a flat.

should be screed over beam/block.


As they had no intention of replacing the kitchen, they were not going
to rip the floor up and put down beams, they tried injecting expanding
foam through the chipboard in the most compressed areas (after ripping
up the tiles to do it again), this seem'd to help in those areas, but
other areas soon sunk and allowed the new tiles to crack,

They eventually gave up and had some cushion flooring put down, looks so
much better, no chance of it cracking, and much warmer to walk on in
bare feet.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Polystyrene not waterproof either....

Jim K

In article ,
Gazz wrote:
if it's a house built in the last 15 to 20 years, the ground floors are
likely laid directly on polystyrene slabs, which are laid on a vapour
barrier and the earth.

More usually a concrete raft.

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


NT

On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.



the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor
were too thin and not enough cement and poorly grouted and a leaking loo
did n fact cause the chip to bubble. I ripped em up, laid the new ones
carefully with tiles up the wall as well and some silicone at the
wall/edge junction FIRST so that if it did crack there there was still a
seal..

It has survived my wife leaving the bath running and totally flooding
the bathroom,landing carpet, the hall and utility room underneath and
destroying a smoke alarm (must replace that) and tripping the entire house.

That chip will take a soaking, just not a persistent leak.

I had one of those too - but it wasn't direct ON the tiles. It was under
the basin in a cupboard..

they survived that, too.


NT



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:02:36 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor

that's not the key at all. Chip flexes, its inevitable. Flexing a rock hard ceramic layer even the tiniest bit cant help but form microcracks, its just a question of when. Then water penetration if in a wet area is inevitable, and all grades of chip go the same way when wetted.

If you want a quick job to sell a house, it'll do. If you want the tiles to last for life, tile on chip hasnt a prayer, if it encounters anything wetter than a squeezed out cloth.


NT

On 29/04/2014 23:24, wrote:
On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:02:36 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor

that's not the key at all. Chip flexes, its inevitable. Flexing a rock hard ceramic layer even the tiniest bit cant help but form microcracks, its just a question of when. Then water penetration if in a wet area is inevitable, and all grades of chip go the same way when wetted.

If you want a quick job to sell a house, it'll do. If you want the tiles to last for life, tile on chip hasnt a prayer, if it encounters anything wetter than a squeezed out cloth.


NT


Whilst not necessarily disagreeing, I recently tried soaking green
chipboard for several days and 'twas totally unaffected. Based on that
experiment it's hard to believe that there is a problem with casual and
occasional wetting of green chipboard.

On 29/04/14 23:24, wrote:
On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:02:36 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor

that's not the key at all. Chip flexes, its inevitable. Flexing a rock hard ceramic layer even the tiniest bit cant help but form microcracks, its just a question of when. Then water penetration if in a wet area is inevitable, and all grades of chip go the same way when wetted.

If you want a quick job to sell a house, it'll do. If you want the tiles to last for life, tile on chip hasnt a prayer, if it encounters anything wetter than a squeezed out cloth.


NT

my experience shows you are talking out of your arse

even concrete floors flex. The key is that ceramic tiles too can flex
and so can THIK beds of adhesive.





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 30/04/14 00:09, wrote:
On 29/04/2014 23:24, wrote:
On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:02:36 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural
Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went
t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the
chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an
awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor

that's not the key at all. Chip flexes, its inevitable. Flexing a rock
hard ceramic layer even the tiniest bit cant help but form
microcracks, its just a question of when. Then water penetration if in
a wet area is inevitable, and all grades of chip go the same way when
wetted.

If you want a quick job to sell a house, it'll do. If you want the
tiles to last for life, tile on chip hasnt a prayer, if it encounters
anything wetter than a squeezed out cloth.


NT


Whilst not necessarily disagreeing, I recently tried soaking green
chipboard for several days and 'twas totally unaffected. Based on that
experiment it's hard to believe that there is a problem with casual and
occasional wetting of green chipboard.

There isn't, but persistent soaking especially from a cut edge will
cause it to bubble,. The good news is it shrinks back once dry.

Some of the comments on here remind me of the 'plumber' who installed my
hot water tank.

"What type is it?"
"Mains pressure"
"Oh OK so no header?"
"no"
"where's it going?"
"IN the loft"

Nods sagely...

"Good idea, you will get a faster flow from up there"
"On a MAINS PRESSURE TANK!!!"!?"
"Yeah mate".

Then there was the case of the Underfloor heating. I spent several
weeks with a heating engineer checking over the calcs and making sure it
all was according to spec,. we laid it and still the carpenters said
"its all right for background, but you should have some radiators. It
won't heat the whole room you know "

Well after it was screeded we finally got the boiler in, and without a
thermostat I let it run flat out all night.

The next morning "Jesus, its stuffy in here, what have you been doing?"
"testing the underfloor heating...."




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 30/04/2014 00:09, wrote:
On 29/04/2014 23:24, wrote:
On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:02:36 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural
Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went
t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the
chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an
awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor

that's not the key at all. Chip flexes, its inevitable. Flexing a rock
hard ceramic layer even the tiniest bit cant help but form
microcracks, its just a question of when. Then water penetration if in
a wet area is inevitable, and all grades of chip go the same way when
wetted.

If you want a quick job to sell a house, it'll do. If you want the
tiles to last for life, tile on chip hasnt a prayer, if it encounters
anything wetter than a squeezed out cloth.


NT


Whilst not necessarily disagreeing, I recently tried soaking green
chipboard for several days and 'twas totally unaffected. Based on that
experiment it's hard to believe that there is a problem with casual and
occasional wetting of green chipboard.
+1

On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 12:40:52 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/04/14 23:24, wrote:
On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:02:36 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/04/14 10:55, wrote:
On Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:02:05 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/04/14 22:19, JimK wrote:

+1 what Tim said.
Chip + damp from wherever = weetabix

in ten years wet tiles no penetration.

I had tiles on chip once. They were fine for 15 years, then all went t-ts up as water penetrated hairline cracks in the grout and the chipboard expanded. I repaired it twice then gave up on it - its an awkward repair scraping the chip down without debonding more tiles.

Tiles done properly should last a lifetime.


the key is to prep properly first. The FIRST tiles I laid on that floor

that's not the key at all. Chip flexes, its inevitable. Flexing a rock hard ceramic layer even the tiniest bit cant help but form microcracks, its just a question of when. Then water penetration if in a wet area is inevitable, and all grades of chip go the same way when wetted.

If you want a quick job to sell a house, it'll do. If you want the tiles to last for life, tile on chip hasnt a prayer, if it encounters anything wetter than a squeezed out cloth.

my experience shows you are talking out of your arse

well, it is my experience, ie reported observed facts

even concrete floors flex. The key is that ceramic tiles too can flex
and so can THIK beds of adhesive.

concrete floors flex far less. I dont think we need argue there


NT