This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using beach sand !!

I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe at the rear of the house had split and was running water onto the wall. Split because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes were solid with mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the garden (thank goodness for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to address the drainage.

The pointing will need to be re-done in a small area and my understanding with random rubble stone is that it should be lime based.

Can someone give any guidance on this please.

Thanks
Rob

On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using beach sand !!
I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe at the rear of the house had split and was running water onto the wall. Split because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes were solid with mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the garden (thank goodness for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to address the drainage.
The pointing will need to be re-done in a small area and my understanding with random rubble stone is that it should be lime based.
Can someone give any guidance on this please.
Thanks
Rob

Quite so. 3:1 sand to builder's lime, just mix and use. The main differences with cement mixes a
it takes ages to set/harden, you can mix a batch then continue using it next day
it can accomodate slight wall movement without causing significant damage
when it eventually fails it doesnt pull the surface off the stone like cement tends to
Speed of work is limited by its considerable slowness to harden - doesnt sound like this will be a problem in your situation, if its only a narrow strip behind the pipe.

If you want it to look right, use the same sand colour and type as is already there. Red, yellow or white, soft, sharp or a mix. Occasionally you also get inclusions like shells or black specks. FWIW I dont think theres a big problem with beach sand, its much like the sea dredged sand builders & DIYers widely use.

Cement & lime mixes behave like cement, and are not recommended. If you want to read more on why lime should be used, SPAB have info on it. Periodpropertyforum also discusses it a fair bit, or did last time I was there.


NT

On 19/04/2014 02:01, wrote:
On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which
might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using
beach sand !! I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe
at the rear of the house had split and was running water onto the
wall. Split because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes
were solid with mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the
garden (thank goodness for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to
address the drainage. The pointing will need to be re-done in a
small area and my understanding with random rubble stone is that it
should be lime based. Can someone give any guidance on this
please. Thanks Rob

Quite so. 3:1 sand to builder's lime, just mix and use. The main
differences with cement mixes a it takes ages to set/harden, you
can mix a batch then continue using it next day it can accomodate
slight wall movement without causing significant damage when it
eventually fails it doesnt pull the surface off the stone like cement
tends to Speed of work is limited by its considerable slowness to
harden - doesnt sound like this will be a problem in your situation,
if its only a narrow strip behind the pipe.

If you want it to look right, use the same sand colour and type as is
already there. Red, yellow or white, soft, sharp or a mix.
Occasionally you also get inclusions like shells or black specks.
FWIW I dont think theres a big problem with beach sand, its much like
the sea dredged sand builders & DIYers widely use.

Cement & lime mixes behave like cement, and are not recommended. If
you want to read more on why lime should be used, SPAB have info on
it. Periodpropertyforum also discusses it a fair bit, or did last
time I was there.


NT


Talking to a guy the other day who was re-pointing a Victorian house in
sand/cement mortar after the front wall had been pressure washed rather
than sandblasted. Have to say the end result looked pretty damned good.

He said they use lime mortar a lot these days, and cover it with a
breathable membrane (landscape fabric?) for several weeks. Needless to
say, this is mostly on listed buildings, so I guess it must cost a lot more

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
Talking to a guy the other day who was re-pointing a Victorian house in
sand/cement mortar after the front wall had been pressure washed rather
than sandblasted. Have to say the end result looked pretty damned good.

The snag with doing this - if the joints have been raked out first - is
that any movement will result in cracked bricks etc. And most Victorian
houses do move somewhat.

--
*Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 2:01:27 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:

This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which
might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using
beach sand !!

I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe at the rear
of the house had split and was running water onto the wall. Split
because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes were solid
with mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the garden (thank
goodness for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to address the
drainage.

The pointing will need to be re-done in a small area and my
understanding with random rubble stone is that it should be
lime based.

Quite so. 3:1 sand to builder's lime, just mix and use. The main
differences with cement mixes a

it takes ages to set/harden, you can mix a batch then continue
using it next day

This is the only point I would disagree with. If you use lime
putty, and put the remaining mortar in one of the (air-tight) lime
putty buckets, then you can continue using it next *year*.

it can accomodate slight wall movement without causing significant
damage

when it eventually fails it doesnt pull the surface off the stone
like cement tends to

Speed of work is limited by its considerable slowness to harden
- doesnt sound like this will be a problem in your situation, if
its only a narrow strip behind the pipe.

Speed is not an issue for pointing at all. It might be for building
a wall.



If you want it to look right, use the same sand colour and type as
is already there.

+1. It may actually need to be darker than previous sand (to allow
for dirt on the existing pointing / brick


Cement & lime mixes behave like cement, and are not recommended.
If you want to read more on why lime should be used, SPAB have info
on it. Periodpropertyforum also discusses it a fair bit, or did
last time I was there.

On 19/04/2014 11:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
Talking to a guy the other day who was re-pointing a Victorian house in
sand/cement mortar after the front wall had been pressure washed rather
than sandblasted. Have to say the end result looked pretty damned good.

The snag with doing this - if the joints have been raked out first - is
that any movement will result in cracked bricks etc. And most Victorian
houses do move somewhat.


Water pressure was enough to blow all the old mortar (well, just sand
really) away, no need for raking. IME the movement issue has been
overstated. My house should have fallen down by now if the purists were
right

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
The snag with doing this - if the joints have been raked out first - is
that any movement will result in cracked bricks etc. And most Victorian
houses do move somewhat.


Water pressure was enough to blow all the old mortar (well, just sand
really) away, no need for raking. IME the movement issue has been
overstated. My house should have fallen down by now if the purists were
right

Oh it won't fall down. Just possibly unsightly cracks. Of course it does
depend on how strong the mortar mix used for pointing is.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 4:00:30 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

stuart noble wrote:

The snag with doing this - if the joints have been raked out first - is

that any movement will result in cracked bricks etc. And most Victorian

houses do move somewhat.





Water pressure was enough to blow all the old mortar (well, just sand

really) away, no need for raking. IME the movement issue has been

overstated. My house should have fallen down by now if the purists were

right



Oh it won't fall down. Just possibly unsightly cracks. Of course it does

depend on how strong the mortar mix used for pointing is.



--

*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?



Dave Plowman London SW

To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Many thanks guys for your advice. The colour/texture of the sand and a source of builder's lime now needs to be sorted out locally.

Rob

/ Oh it won't fall down. Just possibly unsightly cracks. Of course it does depend on how strong the mortar mix used for pointing is./q

And how much there is (depth) in the joints.

Jim K

On 19/04/2014 02:01, wrote:
On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using beach sand !!
I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe at the rear of the house had split and was running water onto the wall. Split because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes were solid with mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the garden (thank goodness for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to address the drainage.
The pointing will need to be re-done in a small area and my understanding with random rubble stone is that it should be lime based.
Can someone give any guidance on this please.
Thanks
Rob




There is a LIME FAQ on UK SelfBuild site

but as stated a 3:1 mix with builders lime would suffice for re-pointing
.... make sure you have a few dry days due as initial set time is
considerable.



--
UK SelfBuild: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/UK_Selfbuild/

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 10:10:21 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 4:00:30 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



stuart noble wrote:



The snag with doing this - if the joints have been raked out first - is



that any movement will result in cracked bricks etc. And most Victorian



houses do move somewhat.











Water pressure was enough to blow all the old mortar (well, just sand



really) away, no need for raking. IME the movement issue has been



overstated. My house should have fallen down by now if the purists were



right







Oh it won't fall down. Just possibly unsightly cracks. Of course it does



depend on how strong the mortar mix used for pointing is.







--



*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?







Dave Plowman London SW



To e-mail, change noise into sound.



Many thanks guys for your advice. The colour/texture of the sand and a source of builder's lime now needs to be sorted out locally.



Rob

Masons Mortar, Salamander St, Edinburgh

http://www.masonsmortar.co.uk/knowledge/

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 10:10:21 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
Many thanks guys for your advice. The colour/texture of the sand
and a source of builder's lime now needs to be sorted out locally.

The last time I was buying lime putty, I found the following sites
that would deliver:
http://www.lime-mortars.co.uk/
http://www.ecolime.co.uk/
http://www.lime.org.uk
http://www.cornishlime.co.uk/
http://www.womersleys.co.uk
http://stoneconservation.net
(but I am in Cambridge, not out in the sticks in the Scottish
Highlands).

Beware delivery charges - the reason I had that list of URLs
was the spreadsheet working out the price/kg for approx 20kg
lime putty delivered *including delivery*.

In article ,
Martin Bonner wrote:
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 10:10:21 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
Many thanks guys for your advice. The colour/texture of the sand
and a source of builder's lime now needs to be sorted out locally.

The last time I was buying lime putty, I found the following sites
that would deliver:
http://www.lime-mortars.co.uk/
http://www.ecolime.co.uk/
http://www.lime.org.uk
http://www.cornishlime.co.uk/
http://www.womersleys.co.uk
http://stoneconservation.net
(but I am in Cambridge, not out in the sticks in the Scottish
Highlands).

Beware delivery charges -

[Snip]

I nearly got caught on eBay the other day. Item £2 - delivery £66!

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 20/04/2014 20:58, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 19/04/2014 02:01, wrote:
On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which
might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using
beach sand !!
I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe at the rear of
the house had split and was running water onto the wall. Split
because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes were solid with
mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the garden (thank goodness
for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to address the drainage.
The pointing will need to be re-done in a small area and my
understanding with random rubble stone is that it should be lime based.
Can someone give any guidance on this please.
Thanks
Rob




There is a LIME FAQ on UK SelfBuild site

but as stated a 3:1 mix with builders lime would suffice for re-pointing
... make sure you have a few dry days due as initial set time is
considerable.




So you need a crystal ball too? :-)
Actually it seems they now cover with a breathable membrane rather than
the sacking the Victorians used

On Monday, April 21, 2014 8:30:38 AM UTC+1, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 10:10:21 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:

Many thanks guys for your advice. The colour/texture of the sand

and a source of builder's lime now needs to be sorted out locally.



The last time I was buying lime putty, I found the following sites

that would deliver:

http://www.lime-mortars.co.uk/

http://www.ecolime.co.uk/

http://www.lime.org.uk

http://www.cornishlime.co.uk/

http://www.womersleys.co.uk

http://stoneconservation.net

(but I am in Cambridge, not out in the sticks in the Scottish

Highlands).



Beware delivery charges - the reason I had that list of URLs

was the spreadsheet working out the price/kg for approx 20kg

lime putty delivered *including delivery*.

Thanks Adam and Charles

Not all old Scottish cottages are in the Highlands !! _I'm just 10 miles west of Edinburgh centre so Adam, that's a great link. Charles your list may not help me but I'm sure it will be of use to others - thanks to you both.

Coincidentally I only discovered recently that the largest lime pit at the time in Scotland was less than a mile away from me - it explains why the A71 takes a clear diversion at that point.
Rob
Rob

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 9:41:06 AM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
On 19/04/2014 02:01, wrote:
On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:
This is repairs to a Scots farm cottage some 200 years old which
might well have been re-pointed sometime in the last century using
beach sand !! I hadn't spotted until recently that the CI down pipe
at the rear of the house had split and was running water onto the
wall. Split because the old soak away and clay agricultural pipes
were solid with mud! There's now a trench and big hole in the
garden (thank goodness for neighbours who have a minidigger !) to
address the drainage. The pointing will need to be re-done in a
small area and my understanding with random rubble stone is that it
should be lime based. Can someone give any guidance on this
please. Thanks Rob

Quite so. 3:1 sand to builder's lime, just mix and use. The main
differences with cement mixes a it takes ages to set/harden, you
can mix a batch then continue using it next day it can accomodate
slight wall movement without causing significant damage when it
eventually fails it doesnt pull the surface off the stone like cement
tends to Speed of work is limited by its considerable slowness to
harden - doesnt sound like this will be a problem in your situation,
if its only a narrow strip behind the pipe.

If you want it to look right, use the same sand colour and type as is
already there. Red, yellow or white, soft, sharp or a mix.
Occasionally you also get inclusions like shells or black specks.
FWIW I dont think theres a big problem with beach sand, its much like
the sea dredged sand builders & DIYers widely use.

Cement & lime mixes behave like cement, and are not recommended. If
you want to read more on why lime should be used, SPAB have info on
it. Periodpropertyforum also discusses it a fair bit, or did last
time I was there.

Talking to a guy the other day who was re-pointing a Victorian house in
sand/cement mortar after the front wall had been pressure washed rather
than sandblasted. Have to say the end result looked pretty damned good.

lime & white cement look much the same

He said they use lime mortar a lot these days, and cover it with a
breathable membrane (landscape fabric?) for several weeks. Needless to
say, this is mostly on listed buildings, so I guess it must cost a lot more

Lime and cement mortars are both very cheap, cement fractionally cheaper. The reason builders switched to OPC was the elimination of delays in building due to its quick setting.

Covering is only needed when frost threatens.


NT

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 1:46:56 PM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
On 19/04/2014 11:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
stuart noble ntlworld.com wrote:

Talking to a guy the other day who was re-pointing a Victorian house in
sand/cement mortar after the front wall had been pressure washed rather
than sandblasted. Have to say the end result looked pretty damned good.

The snag with doing this - if the joints have been raked out first - is
that any movement will result in cracked bricks etc. And most Victorian
houses do move somewhat.

Water pressure was enough to blow all the old mortar (well, just sand
really) away, no need for raking. IME the movement issue has been
overstated. My house should have fallen down by now if the purists were
right

Its frequently overlooked, and houses damaged as a result. Look round any Vic housing area and you'll find the damage cement does to soft brick. The long delay between application and damage means a lot of people arent aware of the connection.


NT

On Monday, April 21, 2014 8:30:38 AM UTC+1, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 10:10:21 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:

Many thanks guys for your advice. The colour/texture of the sand
and a source of builder's lime now needs to be sorted out locally.
The last time I was buying lime putty, I found the following sites
that would deliver:
http://www.lime-mortars.co.uk/
http://www.ecolime.co.uk/
http://www.lime.org.uk
http://www.cornishlime.co.uk/
http://www.womersleys.co.uk
http://stoneconservation.net
(but I am in Cambridge, not out in the sticks in the Scottish
Highlands).
Beware delivery charges - the reason I had that list of URLs
was the spreadsheet working out the price/kg for approx 20kg
lime putty delivered *including delivery*.

I dont understand why some folk pay high prices for ready mixed putty. A bag of builders lime and water is fine for pointing.


NT

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:09:14 PM UTC+1, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 2:01:27 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Friday, April 18, 2014 6:53:51 PM UTC+1, robgraham wrote:

Speed of work is limited by its considerable slowness to harden

- doesnt sound like this will be a problem in your situation, if
its only a narrow strip behind the pipe.

Speed is not an issue for pointing at all. It might be for building
a wall.

Not normally an issue when pointing, but I have repointed brickwork where the mortar had fallen out all the way through, so the support of set mortar before raking more out did matter.


NT

On Monday, April 21, 2014 9:53:08 AM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
On 20/04/2014 20:58, Rick Hughes wrote:

... make sure you have a few dry days due as initial set time is
considerable.

So you need a crystal ball too? :-)

Yes if youre too dense to check the weather forecast. Lime takes a few days to set.

On Monday, April 21, 2014 7:56:14 PM UTC+1, wrote:

I dont understand why some folk pay high prices for ready mixed
putty. A bag of builders lime and water is fine for pointing.

Bagged lime powder is usually hydraulic, that is, it sets quickly
once dampened, and doesn't need exposure to the air. I *like* the
slow setting nature of non-hydraulic lime. (Hydraulic lime also
doesn't have the same self-healing properties - it all sets, rather
than leaving a core of unset, which can set after the building
has shifted.)

Also, I don't think it's a matter of "ready-mixed" putty. That's
how it is turns out after you slake it. Slaking quicklime to
give a dry powder is much more tricky.