I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window. There is
a history of how this double glazed window got to be installed without
a lintel but that's another story.

The worry is of course that if things go wrong the front of the house
comes crashing down.

The builder has Public Liability Insurance and is a regular user of
Acrow props.

I'm seeing him tomorrow to finalise the specs - what else do I need to
look out for? Does Builder's Public Liability usually cover damage
they may cause to properties they work on?


--
AnthonyL

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window. There is
a history of how this double glazed window got to be installed without
a lintel but that's another story.

The worry is of course that if things go wrong the front of the house
comes crashing down.

The builder has Public Liability Insurance and is a regular user of
Acrow props.

I'm seeing him tomorrow to finalise the specs - what else do I need to
look out for? Does Builder's Public Liability usually cover damage
they may cause to properties they work on?

Be careful that they don't support the lintel with the lounge window. All of
our doors and windows support the lintels, the houses were built that way
can you believe.

On 07/03/2014 12:40, AnthonyL wrote:
I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window. There is
a history of how this double glazed window got to be installed without
a lintel but that's another story.

The worry is of course that if things go wrong the front of the house
comes crashing down.

The builder has Public Liability Insurance and is a regular user of
Acrow props.

I'm seeing him tomorrow to finalise the specs - what else do I need to
look out for? Does Builder's Public Liability usually cover damage
they may cause to properties they work on?



How wide is the window? Does the brickwork above it look sound? Is the
window coming out whilst the lintel is fitted, or being left in situ.

If the brickwork is sound, and didn't move when the previous window was
removed and this one fitted (I assume that's what happened?) chances are
it won't move now while a couple of courses are removed to make way for
a lintel.

If there's a danger of it moving, the builder will need to remove some
bricks above lintel level and put temporary beams in place. I think
there are some fancy ones which work from one side without needing props
*inside* the house. However, if there are any ceiling joist supported by
the wall immediately over the window, it may be necessary to prop the
ceiling during this operation.

The lintel itself will probably need to be fitted from the inside if
it's taller that side than on the outside - which many are.

Whatever happens, the house is unlikely to collapse. the worst that will
happen is that a triangular chunk will come out above the window and
will have to be re-built.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

AnthonyL wrote:
I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window. There is
a history of how this double glazed window got to be installed without
a lintel but that's another story.

The worry is of course that if things go wrong the front of the house
comes crashing down.

This has never happened before but..


Seriously, brickwork can't fall like you mention as it's self supporting,
see this photo I've edited:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/hth5ds.jpg
The bricks dotted in blue are the only ones that /could/ fall, see below.

Also, if the window is fitted on the outside skin like the one in the photo,
there will already be a lintel inside, which means there won't (or very
highly unlikely) be any damage to the internal walls

The builder has Public Liability Insurance and is a regular user of
Acrow props.

I'm seeing him tomorrow to finalise the specs - what else do I need to
look out for? Does Builder's Public Liability usually cover damage
they may cause to properties they work on?

Yes but they won't use it unless absolutely neccesary, if any damage occurs
he'll sort it out himself rather than lose his NCD, unless it involves
something horrendously expensive like a BMW geting totalled or a person
geting injured in which case he'll use the insurance co..

As an aside, 99 out of 100 of these jobs involves no brickwork falling at
all - the tie wires tend to hold the brickwork to the internal blockwork
very well, and in the rare cases that bricks /do/ come down, it's normall
half a dozen, the ones highlighted in blue on my picture are a worse case
scenario,, and even then there's only about 30

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 14:46:12 -0000, "Phil L"
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:
I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window. There is
a history of how this double glazed window got to be installed without
a lintel but that's another story.

The worry is of course that if things go wrong the front of the house
comes crashing down.

This has never happened before but..


Seriously, brickwork can't fall like you mention as it's self supporting,
see this photo I've edited:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/hth5ds.jpg
The bricks dotted in blue are the only ones that /could/ fall, see below.

Also, if the window is fitted on the outside skin like the one in the photo,
there will already be a lintel inside, which means there won't (or very
highly unlikely) be any damage to the internal walls


Thanks. The window is on the outside skin - there is no cavity but
the original (1860) windows were half the width and the outer boundary
of your blue dots is structured as an arch.

What happened was when an earlier wooden frame was removed for the
double glazing to be fitted some of the bricks must have move and we
now get water ingress. The plaster at the top of the window is
damaged and it precludes redecorating. There is the slightest of bows
on the top edge due to the weight of the bricks - hence I've decided
to get a lintel fitted. I'm told it will go one course above the
window and well into the brickwork either side.

The builder has Public Liability Insurance and is a regular user of
Acrow props.

I'm seeing him tomorrow to finalise the specs - what else do I need to
look out for? Does Builder's Public Liability usually cover damage
they may cause to properties they work on?

Yes but they won't use it unless absolutely neccesary, if any damage occurs
he'll sort it out himself rather than lose his NCD, unless it involves
something horrendously expensive like a BMW geting totalled or a person
geting injured in which case he'll use the insurance co..


OK - just wanted the reassurance that he won't back out of fixing any
accidental damage on that part or any other part of the work.

As an aside, 99 out of 100 of these jobs involves no brickwork falling at
all - the tie wires tend to hold the brickwork to the internal blockwork
very well, and in the rare cases that bricks /do/ come down, it's normall
half a dozen, the ones highlighted in blue on my picture are a worse case
scenario,, and even then there's only about 30


I don't know what is there. It's double brick - no cavity, 150yrs old
but well constructed house.

I should have had a lintel put in at the time of the double glazing
but was persuaded that the aluminium frame would be strong enough.
The fitters were really only interested in getting the window in, they
were not builders.

--
AnthonyL

On 07/03/2014 18:44, AnthonyL wrote:


I should have had a lintel put in at the time of the double glazing
but was persuaded that the aluminium frame would be strong enough.
The fitters were really only interested in getting the window in, they
were not builders.


Sounds like they were cowboys! If the new window was twice the width of
the old one, there must have been some building (or un-building) work
done to widen the aperture. Whoever did that should have known that a
lintel was needed.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 12:40:24 PM UTC, AnthonyL wrote:
I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window.

It really takes a catalog of utterly ignorant mistakes to cause anything to go awry.

Lintels are sized according to load:
- Floor & Roof loads mean a taller lintel
- Struc Eng will confirm loads & provide figures

Lintel end bearings need to be 150mm:
- Last one I did here on a door & floor had 19mm and was a 4x2 laid SIDEWAYS
- It came out as an emergency replacement as the doorframe moved, jamming the door, as I was storing quite a lot of stuff on the floor above and one joist was toast from lot hence a bit of a point load in the centre

Lintel bearings most likely brick, unlikedly pad stones:
- Unless you have a multi-storey house the load is likely to be modest

Props are necessary:
- Needles left in & dangling on wall ties are out
- Acrows & strongboy are in, propping the inside joists if they terminate likewise
- Load spreaders for the props are important, typically 6x2 floor & ceiling

Mortar takes time to go off:
- Lintel level, mortar must be let to set not run with the props 24hrs later

Cowboy is basically a piece of 4x2 slipped in and hoping the brickwork above hangs on its wall ties and repoint the triangle crack. If you see things being done correctly (plenty of instruction online) there is nothing to worry about.

Strapping may be necessary to joists in some cases, altho unlikely (and in any case beneficial if you have any odd movement in an older house).


Your building insurance is very UNLIKELY to provide cover for 3rd party building work. It may (many do) provide cover for you DIYing the demolish of your house, but it will not if you pay someone else to do it :-)

Quite a few houses had cowboy window installs and brick DOES drop in a triangle above. Unsightly and niggling surveyors make a fuss about it. Fixing it, well, better done now than trying to rush later if you get an urgent selling/move need.

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 19:47:55 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 07/03/2014 18:44, AnthonyL wrote:


I should have had a lintel put in at the time of the double glazing
but was persuaded that the aluminium frame would be strong enough.
The fitters were really only interested in getting the window in, they
were not builders.


Sounds like they were cowboys! If the new window was twice the width of
the old one, there must have been some building (or un-building) work
done to widen the aperture. Whoever did that should have known that a
lintel was needed.

No - the wooden window which was replaced was already this width and
that was put in well before my time. It was then the lintel should
have been put in. The double glazers just replaced that window and we
discussed the lintel issue but it wasn't in their remit. I made a
couple of enquiries and as usual no builder actually turned up to
quote let alone do the job so the double glazed window just went in.
As they had to support the brickwork then some movement occured.


--
AnthonyL

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 15:30:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, March 7, 2014 12:40:24 PM UTC, AnthonyL wrote:
I have a quote for fitting a lintel above the lounge window.

It really takes a catalog of utterly ignorant mistakes to cause anything to go awry.

Lintels are sized according to load:
- Floor & Roof loads mean a taller lintel
- Struc Eng will confirm loads & provide figures

Lintel end bearings need to be 150mm:
- Last one I did here on a door & floor had 19mm and was a 4x2 laid SIDEWAYS
- It came out as an emergency replacement as the doorframe moved, jamming the door, as I was storing quite a lot of stuff on the floor above and one joist was toast from lot hence a bit of a point load in the centre

Lintel bearings most likely brick, unlikedly pad stones:
- Unless you have a multi-storey house the load is likely to be modest

Props are necessary:
- Needles left in & dangling on wall ties are out
- Acrows & strongboy are in, propping the inside joists if they terminate likewise
- Load spreaders for the props are important, typically 6x2 floor & ceiling

Mortar takes time to go off:
- Lintel level, mortar must be let to set not run with the props 24hrs later

Cowboy is basically a piece of 4x2 slipped in and hoping the brickwork above hangs on its wall ties and repoint the triangle crack. If you see things being done correctly (plenty of instruction online) there is nothing to worry about.

Strapping may be necessary to joists in some cases, altho unlikely (and in any case beneficial if you have any odd movement in an older house).


Eh eh - I could just about do it myself with those detailed
instructions.


Your building insurance is very UNLIKELY to provide cover for 3rd party building work. It may (many do) provide cover for you DIYing the demolish of your house, but it will not if you pay someone else to do it :-)

It's not my building insurance that I was referring to but the
proposed builder's Public Liability insurance.


Quite a few houses had cowboy window installs and brick DOES drop in a triangle above. Unsightly and niggling surveyors make a fuss about it. Fixing it, well, better done now than trying to rush later if you get an urgent selling/move need.

My priority is to stop the cause of the water ingress and relieve the
pressure on the aluminium frame and struts. Once that is done and the
internal plastering sorted SWMBO can get her internal decoration and I
can get some peace.



--
AnthonyL

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 12:23:42 PM UTC, AnthonyL wrote:
My priority is to stop the cause of the water ingress and relieve the
pressure on the aluminium frame and struts. Once that is done and the
internal plastering sorted SWMBO can get her internal decoration and I
can get some peace.

I had typed, then deleted, a comment about water ingress as I guessed that may be visible!

Out of curiosity, since the original window install is somewhat suspect, does the aluminium frame employ a thermal break? On some you can get running water without any other undue provocation (cold bridging).

In article , AnthonyL
writes

It's not my building insurance that I was referring to but the
proposed builder's Public Liability insurance.

Possibly a terminology issue but I'd expect the cover required to be
third party liability rather than public liability. Either way I'd
expect to see a proper description of the cover in place.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:21:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 12:23:42 PM UTC, AnthonyL wrote:
My priority is to stop the cause of the water ingress and relieve the
pressure on the aluminium frame and struts. Once that is done and the
internal plastering sorted SWMBO can get her internal decoration and I
can get some peace.

I had typed, then deleted, a comment about water ingress as I guessed that may be visible!

Out of curiosity, since the original window install is somewhat suspect, does the aluminium frame employ a thermal break?

No idea. What do I look for?

On some you can get running water without any other undue provocation (cold bridging).

The water is coming in through the cracks in the mortar above the
window not from the window itself.


--
AnthonyL

On Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:54:31 AM UTC, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:21:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Out of curiosity, since the original window install is somewhat suspect,
does the aluminium frame employ a thermal break?

No idea. What do I look for?

What you write in reply to below...

On some you can get running water without any other undue
provocation (cold bridging).

The water is coming in through the cracks in the mortar above the
window not from the window itself.

If they had used extrusions with a thermal bridge, any day the temperature outside is low enough to cause the inner aluminium surface to fall below the dew point of that room it will suffer condensation (running water condensation).

Sounds like ok window frame, just made a dogs breakfast of the install as installers can get cash-in-hand fixed-price install and the next job awaits.

You have to be really dumb to muck up a lintel insertion if you have the right equipment... sort of dumber than the worst apprentice after a night out :-) Generally collapses occur when people are removing supporting walls to open plan a shop and do not get a S/E to check what is holding up the walls or inadequate props.

On 09/03/2014 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:21:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:



Out of curiosity, since the original window install is somewhat suspect, does the aluminium frame employ a thermal break?

No idea. What do I look for?


If there's a thermal break, the aluminium sections will be in two
pieces, joined by an insulating material such as resin. See:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=th...%3B 359%3B359

[Sorry about the length of the link. If it doesn't work, Google for
"thermal break aluminium profiles"]

You won't be able to see the break if there are no opening windows but -
if some do open - but you should be able to see it on the outer edge of
the openers and on the inner edge of the outer frame - i.e. the faces
perpendicular to the glass.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In article , Roger Mills
writes

If there's a thermal break, the aluminium sections will be in two
pieces, joined by an insulating material such as resin. See:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=th...client=f iref
ox-a&hs=nQN&rls=org.mozilla:en-GBfficial&tbm=isch&imgil=0A_PNUlpfS8qfM%
253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%
253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcS6pZXGoBP8ZGx6Uni4v_fzbSy Hp3TbLMEfaJXoE
WxSl8_JI--b1g%253B359%253B359%253Bb8cUHRYvw_2vCM%253Bhttp%25 253
A%25252F%25252Fwww.metals-b2b.com%25252Fb2b%25252Fmining_machinery
%25252F4%25252F&source=iu&usg=__-pTVSFIqqClFXmHXjKh7o7VQhvc%3D&sa
=X&ei=OpQcU_LvF4TxhQfR0oCgDg&ved=0CFMQ9QEwBQ&biw= 1232&bih=975#fa
crc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0A_PNUlpfS8qfM%253A%3Bb8cUHR Yvw_2vCM%3Bhttp
%253A%252F%252Fwww.metals-b2b.com%252Fb2b%252Fpics%252FThermal_B
reak_Aluminum_Profile.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fww w.metals-b2b.com%25
2Fb2b%252Fmining_machinery%252F4%252F%3B359%3B3 59

[Sorry about the length of the link. If it doesn't work, Google for
"thermal break aluminium profiles"]

They don't like to make it easy, do they. This should be it:

http://www.metals-b2b.com/b2b/pics/T...um_Profile.jpg

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 10/03/2014 00:41, fred wrote:
In article , Roger Mills
writes

If there's a thermal break, the aluminium sections will be in two
pieces, joined by an insulating material such as resin. See:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=th...client=f iref

ox-a&hs=nQN&rls=org.mozilla:en-GBfficial&tbm=isch&imgil=0A_PNUlpfS8qfM%
253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%
253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcS6pZXGoBP8ZGx6Uni4v_fzbSyH p3TbLMEfaJXoE
WxSl8_JI--b1g%253B359%253B359%253Bb8cUHRYvw_2vCM%253Bhttp%25 253
A%25252F%25252Fwww.metals-b2b.com%25252Fb2b%25252Fmining_machinery
%25252F4%25252F&source=iu&usg=__-pTVSFIqqClFXmHXjKh7o7VQhvc%3D&sa
=X&ei=OpQcU_LvF4TxhQfR0oCgDg&ved=0CFMQ9QEwBQ&biw=1 232&bih=975#fa
crc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0A_PNUlpfS8qfM%253A%3Bb8cUHRY vw_2vCM%3Bhttp
%253A%252F%252Fwww.metals-b2b.com%252Fb2b%252Fpics%252FThermal_B
reak_Aluminum_Profile.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .metals-b2b.com%25
2Fb2b%252Fmining_machinery%252F4%252F%3B359%3B359

[Sorry about the length of the link. If it doesn't work, Google for
"thermal break aluminium profiles"]

They don't like to make it easy, do they. This should be it:

http://www.metals-b2b.com/b2b/pics/T...um_Profile.jpg


Well, that shows one picture - the big link showed lots FWTW.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 16:28:32 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 09/03/2014 11:54, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:21:32 -0800 (PST), wrote:



Out of curiosity, since the original window install is somewhat suspect, does the aluminium frame employ a thermal break?

No idea. What do I look for?


If there's a thermal break, the aluminium sections will be in two
pieces, joined by an insulating material such as resin. See:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=th...%3B 359%3B359

[Sorry about the length of the link. If it doesn't work, Google for
"thermal break aluminium profiles"]

You won't be able to see the break if there are no opening windows but -
if some do open - but you should be able to see it on the outer edge of
the openers and on the inner edge of the outer frame - i.e. the faces
perpendicular to the glass.

Oh I see now - no we don't have any of those - but then again as
mentioned we don't have a problem with the glazing itself. I guess
the inside never gets warm enough and a coal fire adds ventilation.

--
AnthonyL

Roger Mills wrote:
On 10/03/2014 00:41, fred wrote:
In article , Roger Mills
writes

If there's a thermal break, the aluminium sections will be in two
pieces, joined by an insulating material such as resin. See:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=th...client=f iref

ox-a&hs=nQN&rls=org.mozilla:en-GBfficial&tbm=isch&imgil=0A_PNUlpfS8qfM%
253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%
253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcS6pZXGoBP8ZGx6Uni4v_fzbSyH p3TbLMEfaJXoE
WxSl8_JI--b1g%253B359%253B359%253Bb8cUHRYvw_2vCM%253Bhttp%25 253
A%25252F%25252Fwww.metals-b2b.com%25252Fb2b%25252Fmining_machinery
%25252F4%25252F&source=iu&usg=__-pTVSFIqqClFXmHXjKh7o7VQhvc%3D&sa
=X&ei=OpQcU_LvF4TxhQfR0oCgDg&ved=0CFMQ9QEwBQ&biw=1 232&bih=975#fa
crc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0A_PNUlpfS8qfM%253A%3Bb8cUHRY vw_2vCM%3Bhttp
%253A%252F%252Fwww.metals-b2b.com%252Fb2b%252Fpics%252FThermal_B
reak_Aluminum_Profile.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .metals-b2b.com%25
2Fb2b%252Fmining_machinery%252F4%252F%3B359%3B359

[Sorry about the length of the link. If it doesn't work, Google for
"thermal break aluminium profiles"]

They don't like to make it easy, do they. This should be it:

http://www.metals-b2b.com/b2b/pics/T...um_Profile.jpg


Well, that shows one picture - the big link showed lots FWTW.


to make long links shorter simply go he
http://snipurl.com/
and paste the long link, this shortens it to;
http://snipurl.com/28ofcex
with one click, and copies the resulsting short link, so you close the
webpage, type your post and click paste