HI Folks
Noticing the recent threads about 'What's your electricity usage..?' -
I would appreciate recommendations for monitoring kit for whole-house
(not single-socket) energy monitors - ideally with a wireless link into
a PC for datalogging.

Wondering about getting off-peak electricity metering installed - we
have a 3kw ground-water heatpump for dhw & central heating - but it (and
the house) is currently running on standard daytime tariff -
and I would like an easy way of logging usage over time...

There seems to be a bewildering variety of kit out there -
it'd be nice to have something that showed usage by the hour, so I could
see the effect of playing with the various timers / stats on the heating
system.

Thanks in advance
Adrian

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I would appreciate recommendations for monitoring kit for whole-house
(not single-socket) energy monitors - ideally with a wireless link into
a PC for datalogging.

Before I had smartmeters, my energy company provided a free energy
monitor (the coil around the meter tails variety) the transmitter unit
stayed in the meter cupboard, powered by a D cell, the receiver was
in-range anywhere in the house, and ran from a wall-wart, as well as a
display, it had an RS232 output (they even provided a USB-RS232
soap-on-a-rope with it) which periodically spat out current and previous
usage.

It was a re-badged CurrentCost unit, plenty of open source stuff to talk
to them, I gave it to my dad to monitor his kiln's cost when I didn't
need it any more.

Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks
Noticing the recent threads about 'What's your electricity usage..?' -
I would appreciate recommendations for monitoring kit for whole-house
(not single-socket) energy monitors - ideally with a wireless link into
a PC for datalogging.

Wondering about getting off-peak electricity metering installed - we
have a 3kw ground-water heatpump for dhw & central heating - but it (and
the house) is currently running on standard daytime tariff -
and I would like an easy way of logging usage over time...

There seems to be a bewildering variety of kit out there -
it'd be nice to have something that showed usage by the hour, so I could
see the effect of playing with the various timers / stats on the heating
system.

Thanks in advance
Adrian

Check out the openenergymonitor project for more than you ever wanted to
know about this.

On 23/02/2014 16:12, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks
Noticing the recent threads about 'What's your electricity usage..?' -
I would appreciate recommendations for monitoring kit for whole-house
(not single-socket) energy monitors - ideally with a wireless link into
a PC for datalogging.





There seems to be a bewildering variety of kit out there -
it'd be nice to have something that showed usage by the hour, so I could
see the effect of playing with the various timers / stats on the heating
system.

I have one of these
http://www.theowl.com/products/owlusb.php

which records 30 days worth of data at 1 minute intervals (and can be
downloaded to PC at any time) or can record at 6 second intervals when
connected to an operating PC.

Don't think I would recommend it as the supplied software is absolute
rubbish (can only display whole months for example, not 6th Jan to 6th Feb)

Others have recognised the crassness of the software and there is some
open source alternative

http://sourceforge.net/projects/electricowl/

but I have never managed to get this to work either.


--
Chris

On 23/02/2014 16:55, Bob Minchin wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks
Noticing the recent threads about 'What's your electricity usage..?' -
I would appreciate recommendations for monitoring kit for whole-house
(not single-socket) energy monitors - ideally with a wireless link into
a PC for datalogging.

Wondering about getting off-peak electricity metering installed - we
have a 3kw ground-water heatpump for dhw & central heating - but it (and
the house) is currently running on standard daytime tariff -
and I would like an easy way of logging usage over time...

There seems to be a bewildering variety of kit out there -
it'd be nice to have something that showed usage by the hour, so I could
see the effect of playing with the various timers / stats on the heating
system.

Thanks in advance
Adrian

Check out the openenergymonitor project for more than you ever wanted to
know about this.

Thanks - that is a lot more than I ever wanted to know.... g
I know it's uk-diy - but I was hoping to find something that came in a
handy box.... rather than needing to be built

On 23/02/2014 17:06, news wrote:
On 23/02/2014 16:12, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks
Noticing the recent threads about 'What's your electricity usage..?' -
I would appreciate recommendations for monitoring kit for whole-house
(not single-socket) energy monitors - ideally with a wireless link into
a PC for datalogging.





There seems to be a bewildering variety of kit out there -
it'd be nice to have something that showed usage by the hour, so I could
see the effect of playing with the various timers / stats on the heating
system.

I have one of these
http://www.theowl.com/products/owlusb.php

which records 30 days worth of data at 1 minute intervals (and can be
downloaded to PC at any time) or can record at 6 second intervals when
connected to an operating PC.

Don't think I would recommend it as the supplied software is absolute
rubbish (can only display whole months for example, not 6th Jan to 6th Feb)

Others have recognised the crassness of the software and there is some
open source alternative

http://sourceforge.net/projects/electricowl/

but I have never managed to get this to work either.


Ah - thanks! Not entirely 5-stars then ?
I have a monitor that doesn't talk to a PC - but it's very much
1st-generation - and only shows a day's consumption - no way of
identifying peak vs cheap-rate usage..
Thanks

On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 16:12:13 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Wondering about getting off-peak electricity metering installed - we
have a 3kw ground-water heatpump for dhw & central heating - but it (and
the house) is currently running on standard daytime tariff -
and I would like an easy way of logging usage over time...

Hum, E7 probably won't be economic as the off peak use won't really
be high enough to offset the higher day time rate. Generally you need
to use about 60% or more of your power in the 7 hour (29% of the day)
off peak period. I should imagine your use is fairly level compared
to having night storage heaters that apply, in our case, 9 kW for at
least 4 hours before they start to cycle as being "full", after that
there is another 3 hrs averaging about 5 kW. So 50 odd kWHr out of a
total daily consumption of 75 kWHr (ish).

Our E7 tarrif is 16.08 day, 6.02 night and 18p/day standing charge (+
5% VAT) EDF Blue + Price Promise Feb 15 paperless and DD.

On power monitors the CurrenCost unit is probably the easiest to use
in a DIY context. I have the ENVI has worked well for years (I have
logs going back to 2008). It spits out the latest power use every 6
seconds or so in a published XML format, then every hour (I think)
the full historical data it has. The connection for this is an RJ45
but it's a TTL level serial data stream, they have a lead that
converts that to USB.

Mines connected to a linux based server (via the USB lead). The
server runs a little perl script that captures the data and logs the
average, min and max of the previous minute into a file. A bit of PHP
and GNUPlot can read that data file and display a plot on a web page.

The accuaracy is pretty good, even though I haven't actually cross
checked with the bill. Figures from the bills fed to spread sheets
come up with very similar numbers as the web page. I'd say better
than 1 kWHr/day. The CT needs to be square to the tail and with that
into the hinge side of the jaw, also fixed so the jaw/tail can't move
relative to each other if knocked. Just "hung on" will work won't be
best to consistent over time.

There are a number of third party programs out there and the unit can
take up to three current transformers so you could monitor your heat
pump independantly though you might need to do a bit of maths to gete
rest of house consumption depending on the wiring.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Thanks - that is a lot more than I ever wanted to know.... g
I know it's uk-diy - but I was hoping to find something that came in a
handy box.... rather than needing to be built

I have an Eco-Eye Smart PV. The display includes a special
SD card, from which data can be downloaded when convenient, and
there is an included analysis program.

If you have no PV, they have a slightly cheaper option.

http://www.eco-eye.com/products-smartPC.html

You can also connect via a USB lead to graph the data in
real-time, if you wish, but it is not essential to do this.

Basically it does what is claimed. Like all such devices there is
a degree of error in the readings, but it seems sensitive enough
to changes. There doesn't seem to be a wired option, so you need
the display to be able to receive a reasonable signal from the
transmitter.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 24/02/2014 08:24, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Thanks - that is a lot more than I ever wanted to know.... g
I know it's uk-diy - but I was hoping to find something that came in a
handy box.... rather than needing to be built

I have an Eco-Eye Smart PV. The display includes a special
SD card, from which data can be downloaded when convenient, and
there is an included analysis program.

If you have no PV, they have a slightly cheaper option.

http://www.eco-eye.com/products-smartPC.html

You can also connect via a USB lead to graph the data in
real-time, if you wish, but it is not essential to do this.

Basically it does what is claimed. Like all such devices there is
a degree of error in the readings, but it seems sensitive enough
to changes. There doesn't seem to be a wired option, so you need
the display to be able to receive a reasonable signal from the
transmitter.

Chris

Thanks - that looks interesting. No - we don't have PV -
so that saves a few pennies..

The heat-pump guy I had round a couple of years ago was quite insistent
that running dual-tariff would save me money - but I'm not so sure.
At least, with one of the gizmos, I can see how much electricity we're
using in the (potentially) cheap-rate times and then do some sums..
Thanks
A

On 23/02/2014 21:45, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 16:12:13 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Wondering about getting off-peak electricity metering installed - we
have a 3kw ground-water heatpump for dhw & central heating - but it (and
the house) is currently running on standard daytime tariff -
and I would like an easy way of logging usage over time...

Hum, E7 probably won't be economic as the off peak use won't really
be high enough to offset the higher day time rate. Generally you need
to use about 60% or more of your power in the 7 hour (29% of the day)
off peak period. I should imagine your use is fairly level compared
to having night storage heaters that apply, in our case, 9 kW for at
least 4 hours before they start to cycle as being "full", after that
there is another 3 hrs averaging about 5 kW. So 50 odd kWHr out of a
total daily consumption of 75 kWHr (ish).

Our E7 tarrif is 16.08 day, 6.02 night and 18p/day standing charge (+
5% VAT) EDF Blue + Price Promise Feb 15 paperless and DD.

OK - we're in Ireland (and they're about to put the 'lekky prices up
again..)
but, at the moment, our standard tariff is (cents) 18.50 with a standing
charge of 185 euro per year.
The nightsaver tariff is 20 cents daytime and 10 cents nightime, with a
standing charge of 241 euro / year - so I guess I'd need to use enough
'cheap' electricity to cover the extra 56 euro or annual standing charge
and the extra 1.5 cents of daytime /kwh.

It's possible that our setup with an non-heat-stored heatpump (feeds
radiators directly) may not suit 'economy' tariffs..?

On power monitors the CurrenCost unit is probably the easiest to use
in a DIY context. I have the ENVI has worked well for years (I have
logs going back to 2008). It spits out the latest power use every 6
seconds or so in a published XML format, then every hour (I think)
the full historical data it has. The connection for this is an RJ45
but it's a TTL level serial data stream, they have a lead that
converts that to USB.

Mines connected to a linux based server (via the USB lead). The
server runs a little perl script that captures the data and logs the
average, min and max of the previous minute into a file. A bit of PHP
and GNUPlot can read that data file and display a plot on a web page.

Interesting - and I'd love to have the time to play with such a system...
but, for the time being, it's an 'out of box' solution I'm looking for..

Thanks
A


The accuaracy is pretty good, even though I haven't actually cross
checked with the bill. Figures from the bills fed to spread sheets
come up with very similar numbers as the web page. I'd say better
than 1 kWHr/day. The CT needs to be square to the tail and with that
into the hinge side of the jaw, also fixed so the jaw/tail can't move
relative to each other if knocked. Just "hung on" will work won't be
best to consistent over time.

There are a number of third party programs out there and the unit can
take up to three current transformers so you could monitor your heat
pump independantly though you might need to do a bit of maths to gete
rest of house consumption depending on the wiring.

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

The heat-pump guy I had round a couple of years ago was quite insistent
that running dual-tariff would save me money - but I'm not so sure.
At least, with one of the gizmos, I can see how much electricity we're
using in the (potentially) cheap-rate times and then do some sums..

I've been on Economy 7 for years, and currently use about 1/3 of
my energy at night rates. On my tariff it currently works out
about £60 saving per year.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:03:54 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

... at the moment, our standard tariff is (cents) 18.50 with a standing
charge of 185 euro per year. The nightsaver tariff is 20 cents daytime
and 10 cents nightime, with a standing charge of 241 euro / year - so I
guess I'd need to use enough 'cheap' electricity to cover the extra 56
euro or annual standing charge and the extra 1.5 cents of daytime /kwh.

I have a spread sheet... on those figures it says you'll need to use
at least 1.53 night units (every night) to save the extra standing
charge and an additional 0.15 night units for every day unit used
just to break even.

Daily Required
Day Night
Units Units Total
5 2.28 7.28
10 3.03 13.03
15 3.78 18.78
20 4.53 24.53
25 5.28 30.28
30 6.03 36.03
35 6.78 41.78
40 7.53 47.53

Divide the "Required Night Units) figure by 7 to find what the
average load needs to be during the night period, normally 0100 to
0800(*).

It's possible that our setup with an non-heat-stored heatpump (feeds
radiators directly) may not suit 'economy' tariffs..?

Quite possibly as a night the heat pump isn't likely to come on and
you'll be at the households lowest base load.

On power monitors the CurrenCost unit is probably the easiest to
use
in a DIY context.
Interesting - and I'd love to have the time to play with such a
system... but, for the time being, it's an 'out of box' solution I'm
looking for..

Well you don't *have* to do the logging and coding yourself there are
programs already out there. Just get get the unit and data cable,
install and play with the existing programs. I can't comment on them
as I've never used them. The unit holds historical data and squirts
it all out of the data port at intervals so you don't need the PC to
be connected to the ENVI and on all the time. I *think* you can kick
the unit into sending all the historical data so you don't have to
wait for it to send automatically.

http://www.currentcost.com/software-downloads.html

The ENVI display unit shows the current demand and cycles through the
last day, 7 and 31 days.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 24/02/2014 10:15, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:03:54 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

... at the moment, our standard tariff is (cents) 18.50 with a standing
charge of 185 euro per year. The nightsaver tariff is 20 cents daytime
and 10 cents nightime, with a standing charge of 241 euro / year - so I
guess I'd need to use enough 'cheap' electricity to cover the extra 56
euro or annual standing charge and the extra 1.5 cents of daytime /kwh.

I have a spread sheet... on those figures it says you'll need to use
at least 1.53 night units (every night) to save the extra standing
charge and an additional 0.15 night units for every day unit used
just to break even.

OK. At the moment all water heating is on the 'daytime' rate.
It's done with a mixture of heatpump (up to a certain temperature)
and immersion heater (for the rest).

I've just checked the ac current on the heatpump - it's in the region of
20A, or about 5kw, and the electric immersion heater would be 3kw.
We tend to have 2 x baths in the evening - between 9:30pm and 10:30pm -
but have a small usage of hot water during the day...

however - if we started the day with a tank-full of 'cheap' hot water -
and then used the heatpump or the immersion just for a top-up @ 9pm
then that's used at least the 1.53 night units...

Overnight domestic heating tends to be a very small amount - as the
temperature is set-back to 10c from 10:30 to 7am


Daily Required
Day Night
Units Units Total
5 2.28 7.28
10 3.03 13.03
15 3.78 18.78
20 4.53 24.53
25 5.28 30.28
30 6.03 36.03
35 6.78 41.78
40 7.53 47.53

Divide the "Required Night Units) figure by 7 to find what the
average load needs to be during the night period, normally 0100 to
0800(*).

It's possible that our setup with an non-heat-stored heatpump (feeds
radiators directly) may not suit 'economy' tariffs..?

Quite possibly as a night the heat pump isn't likely to come on and
you'll be at the households lowest base load.

On power monitors the CurrenCost unit is probably the easiest to
use
in a DIY context.
Interesting - and I'd love to have the time to play with such a
system... but, for the time being, it's an 'out of box' solution I'm
looking for..

Well you don't *have* to do the logging and coding yourself there are
programs already out there. Just get get the unit and data cable,
install and play with the existing programs. I can't comment on them
as I've never used them. The unit holds historical data and squirts
it all out of the data port at intervals so you don't need the PC to
be connected to the ENVI and on all the time. I *think* you can kick
the unit into sending all the historical data so you don't have to
wait for it to send automatically.

Sounds promising - now if I can just find a supplier who doesn't want to
charge me £20 for shipping from the UK to Ireland.... g

Thanks
Adrian

On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:38:42 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I've just checked the ac current on the heatpump - it's in the region of
20A, or about 5kw,

Is that the ratings plate or actual current?

however - if we started the day with a tank-full of 'cheap' hot water -
and then used the heatpump or the immersion just for a top-up @ 9pm
then that's used at least the 1.53 night units...

9 pm won't be night rate, at least not this side of the puddle. Over
here night rate is 7 hours starting somewhere between about 2330 and
0130. The actual start/stop times of any individual E7 supply are
fixed. Unless you have mechanical time switch with bust clockwork, so
when there is a power cut the clock stops...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/02/2014 00:31, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:38:42 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I've just checked the ac current on the heatpump - it's in the region of
20A, or about 5kw,

Is that the ratings plate or actual current?

It's the measured value - with a cheap & cheerful 'Ferm' clamp-on meter.
Ratings plate is round the back of the heat-pump, and not immediately
accessible...


however - if we started the day with a tank-full of 'cheap' hot water -
and then used the heatpump or the immersion just for a top-up @ 9pm
then that's used at least the 1.53 night units...

9 pm won't be night rate, at least not this side of the puddle. Over
here night rate is 7 hours starting somewhere between about 2330 and
0130. The actual start/stop times of any individual E7 supply are
fixed. Unless you have mechanical time switch with bust clockwork, so
when there is a power cut the clock stops...


Understand that - so the top-up water heating would need to be at
'standard' rate electricity - guess it depends on how warm the tank
remains during the day (after it's half-price heating-up in the morning).
I know that additional insulation on the HW tank is always recommended -
but the tank's in the airing cupboard, and there'll be trouble if the
cupboard's not allowed to be warm-ish for clothes airing...

So many 'gotchas'!
I'm thinking that it may be marginal as to whether we'd be better off
with split-rate electricity - might still get hold of a monitor and take
some 'real' readings, though.

Thanks

Dave Liquorice wrote:

9 pm won't be night rate, at least not this side of the puddle. Over
here night rate is 7 hours starting somewhere between about 2330 and
0130. The actual start/stop times of any individual E7 supply are
fixed. Unless you have mechanical time switch with bust clockwork, so
when there is a power cut the clock stops...

If you have a teleswitch, they can tweak the timing slightly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

If you have a teleswitch, they can tweak the timing slightly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch

Until they run out of valves for the R4 LW transmitter ...

On 25/02/2014 07:29, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 25/02/2014 00:31, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:38:42 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I've just checked the ac current on the heatpump - it's in the region of
20A, or about 5kw,

Is that the ratings plate or actual current?

Just found the 'official' spec for the heatpump...

Heating capacity 12.8kW
COP 5.2 (!)
Power consumption 2.3kw

(so it's very likely that my clamp-on meter isn't all that accurate...)
A

On 25/02/2014 08:11, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 25/02/2014 07:29, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 25/02/2014 00:31, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:38:42 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I've just checked the ac current on the heatpump - it's in the
region of
20A, or about 5kw,

Is that the ratings plate or actual current?

Just found the 'official' spec for the heatpump...

Heating capacity 12.8kW
COP 5.2 (!)
Power consumption 2.3kw

(so it's very likely that my clamp-on meter isn't all that accurate...)
A

What's the power factor of the heat pump? 2.3kw could quite easily be
pulling 5 amps of there is no power factor correction on the motor.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 25/02/2014 08:46, John Williamson wrote:
On 25/02/2014 08:11, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 25/02/2014 07:29, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 25/02/2014 00:31, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:38:42 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I've just checked the ac current on the heatpump - it's in the
region of
20A, or about 5kw,

Is that the ratings plate or actual current?

Just found the 'official' spec for the heatpump...

Heating capacity 12.8kW
COP 5.2 (!)
Power consumption 2.3kw

(so it's very likely that my clamp-on meter isn't all that accurate...)
A

What's the power factor of the heat pump? 2.3kw could quite easily be
pulling 5 amps of there is no power factor correction on the motor.


Sorry, that should read 20A, as it's at least* 4.summat amps/kilowatt.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article , Andy
Burns scribeth thus
Chris J Dixon wrote:

If you have a teleswitch, they can tweak the timing slightly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch

Until they run out of valves for the R4 LW transmitter ...


Theres no shortage of valve rebuilders in china and Russia, and they do
make solid state transmitters its just the politics of keeping the
Longwave transmitter going...
--
Tony Sayer