I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems. (However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.



--

DerbyBorn

In article 2,
DerbyBorn writes:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

.... and one who clears drains...
.... and one who does leadwork on roofs...

(However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.

At one end of the scale, you can find someone who thinks (wrongly)
that plastic pushfit needs no skills and matches their capability,
and at the other end, you will find someone with a science degree
who not only has acquired the skills to design and install the most
complex modern heating system, but also fully understands all the
physics, electronics, and chemistry involved in the process, and has
the diagnostic skills to quickly home in and remidy any problems.

Combine this range of skills with the additional complexity of
modern boilers, heating controls, multiple energy sources and home
generation, designing for efficiency (and my expectation that these
will get much more complex still) - there's a massive mismatch between
the skills base out there today, and what's actually required today,
and on into the future.

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article 2,
DerbyBorn writes:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

... and one who clears drains...
... and one who does leadwork on roofs...

(However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.

At one end of the scale, you can find someone who thinks (wrongly)
that plastic pushfit needs no skills and matches their capability,
and at the other end, you will find someone with a science degree
who not only has acquired the skills to design and install the most
complex modern heating system, but also fully understands all the
physics, electronics, and chemistry involved in the process, and has
the diagnostic skills to quickly home in and remidy any problems.

Combine this range of skills with the additional complexity of
modern boilers, heating controls, multiple energy sources and home
generation, designing for efficiency (and my expectation that these
will get much more complex still) - there's a massive mismatch between
the skills base out there today, and what's actually required today,
and on into the future.

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.




The concept of "Time Served" is inadequate today. It only says that someone
received a level of training and experence some time ago when they entered
the trade. Things move fast now and it is to be expected that some training
should take place every few years. Some plumbers clearly don't even read
the manuals that come with the items they are fitting. I had to intervene
when a plumber was trying to "pair" my wireless thermostat to the new
boiler. He was basing the procedure on a totally different make. He
suggested that I was anal because I had read the manual.

--

DerbyBorn

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:51:10 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.




The concept of "Time Served" is inadequate today. It only says that
someone received a level of training and experence some time ago when
they entered the trade. Things move fast now and it is to be expected
that some training should take place every few years. Some plumbers
clearly don't even read the manuals that come with the items they are
fitting. I had to intervene when a plumber was trying to "pair" my
wireless thermostat to the new boiler. He was basing the procedure on a
totally different make. He suggested that I was anal because I had read
the manual.

:-)

Our plumber was bemused by me reading the manual - obviously he hadn't -
and pointing out that the configuration required a small expansion vessel
on the incoming cold water main.

I think even experienced plumbers assume that all boilers are much the
same and do a 'standard fit' procedure.

Cheers

Dave R

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article 2,
DerbyBorn writes:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

... and one who clears drains...
... and one who does leadwork on roofs...

(However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.

At one end of the scale, you can find someone who thinks (wrongly)
that plastic pushfit needs no skills and matches their capability,
and at the other end, you will find someone with a science degree
who not only has acquired the skills to design and install the most
complex modern heating system, but also fully understands all the
physics, electronics, and chemistry involved in the process, and has
the diagnostic skills to quickly home in and remidy any problems.

Combine this range of skills with the additional complexity of
modern boilers, heating controls, multiple energy sources and home
generation, designing for efficiency (and my expectation that these
will get much more complex still) - there's a massive mismatch between
the skills base out there today, and what's actually required today,
and on into the future.

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

And this is only going to escalate.
How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?
Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

On Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:12:02 PM UTC, Mr Pounder wrote:

And this is only going to escalate.

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

Your job won't get outsourced to Mumbai?

"Mr Pounder" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article 2,
DerbyBorn writes:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

... and one who clears drains...
... and one who does leadwork on roofs...

(However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the
instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.

At one end of the scale, you can find someone who thinks (wrongly)
that plastic pushfit needs no skills and matches their capability,
and at the other end, you will find someone with a science degree
who not only has acquired the skills to design and install the most
complex modern heating system, but also fully understands all the
physics, electronics, and chemistry involved in the process, and has
the diagnostic skills to quickly home in and remidy any problems.

Combine this range of skills with the additional complexity of
modern boilers, heating controls, multiple energy sources and home
generation, designing for efficiency (and my expectation that these
will get much more complex still) - there's a massive mismatch between
the skills base out there today, and what's actually required today,
and on into the future.

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

And this is only going to escalate.
How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

I once saw a film where a lady of the house was interested in the plumber
--
Adam

DerbyBorn wrote:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes

fitter

and one who can solve heating problems.

engineer

My plumber is a plumbing and heating engineer who employs
plumbing and heating fitters while putting them through
the training to become plumbing and heating engineers
themselves.

jgh

wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-
:

DerbyBorn wrote:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes

fitter

and one who can solve heating problems.

engineer

My plumber is a plumbing and heating engineer who employs
plumbing and heating fitters while putting them through
the training to become plumbing and heating engineers
themselves.

jgh


I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve problems
and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

--

DerbyBorn

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
.236...
wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-
:

DerbyBorn wrote:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes

fitter

and one who can solve heating problems.

engineer

My plumber is a plumbing and heating engineer who employs
plumbing and heating fitters while putting them through
the training to become plumbing and heating engineers
themselves.

jgh


I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve problems
and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

--

DerbyBorn

Michael Faraday and his ilk called themselves "electricians".
Just a matter of terminology.

"David.WE.Roberts" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:51:10 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.




The concept of "Time Served" is inadequate today. It only says that
someone received a level of training and experence some time ago when
they entered the trade. Things move fast now and it is to be expected
that some training should take place every few years. Some plumbers
clearly don't even read the manuals that come with the items they are
fitting. I had to intervene when a plumber was trying to "pair" my
wireless thermostat to the new boiler. He was basing the procedure on a
totally different make. He suggested that I was anal because I had read
the manual.

:-)

Our plumber was bemused by me reading the manual - obviously he hadn't -
and pointing out that the configuration required a small expansion vessel
on the incoming cold water main.

I think even experienced plumbers assume that all boilers are much the
same and do a 'standard fit' procedure.

When I had my solar panels fitted, I had to go on the roof myself to show
the "electrician" how to wire them up.

DIY seems to be a dying hobby as well. You never see all the DIY magazines
nowadays that once existed.

On 16/02/2014 02:21, ARW wrote:
"Mr Pounder" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article 2,
DerbyBorn writes:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can
solve
heating problems.

... and one who clears drains...
... and one who does leadwork on roofs...

(However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the
instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is
merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return
pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a
diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.

At one end of the scale, you can find someone who thinks (wrongly)
that plastic pushfit needs no skills and matches their capability,
and at the other end, you will find someone with a science degree
who not only has acquired the skills to design and install the most
complex modern heating system, but also fully understands all the
physics, electronics, and chemistry involved in the process, and has
the diagnostic skills to quickly home in and remidy any problems.

Combine this range of skills with the additional complexity of
modern boilers, heating controls, multiple energy sources and home
generation, designing for efficiency (and my expectation that these
will get much more complex still) - there's a massive mismatch between
the skills base out there today, and what's actually required today,
and on into the future.

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

And this is only going to escalate.
How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

I once saw a film where a lady of the house was interested in the plumber

Sparrow's Dance 2012?

On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:12:02 +0000, Mr Pounder wrote:

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber? Where is the
attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

The thrill of working with technical and highly complex systems that
demand a thorough understanding of the rapidly evolving underlying
science, of course.
Modern plumbing appeals to the nerdy type of kid who decades ago would
have gone into the aerospace industry. ;-)

In message , stuart noble
writes
On 16/02/2014 02:21, ARW wrote:

I once saw a film where a lady of the house was interested in the plumber

Sparrow's Dance 2012?

I thought Adam had morphed into Robin Askwith ...

--
Graeme

In article ,
Cursitor Doom writes:
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:12:02 +0000, Mr Pounder wrote:

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber? Where is the
attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

The thrill of working with technical and highly complex systems that
demand a thorough understanding of the rapidly evolving underlying
science, of course.
Modern plumbing appeals to the nerdy type of kid who decades ago would
have gone into the aerospace industry. ;-)

I'd like to think it could, but have you seen any evidence that it
actually does? What's the entry route for this type of kid into the
industry from university?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 15/02/2014 16:48, harryagain wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

Similar parallels exist with modern automotive technology and
traditional mechanics.


BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

To an extent that is missing the key point of the argument... that
tradesmen traditionally are not recruited from the rigorous academic and
hard science backgrounds - and hence may be woefully lacking in the
background knowledge required to have a deep understanding of the modern
technology with which they work.

(there is also the parallel argument, that many engineers who do have
the academic background may lack the practical aptitude and skills!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/02/2014 09:49, harryagain wrote:
"David.WE.Roberts" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 17:51:10 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.




The concept of "Time Served" is inadequate today. It only says that
someone received a level of training and experence some time ago when
they entered the trade. Things move fast now and it is to be expected
that some training should take place every few years. Some plumbers
clearly don't even read the manuals that come with the items they are
fitting. I had to intervene when a plumber was trying to "pair" my
wireless thermostat to the new boiler. He was basing the procedure on a
totally different make. He suggested that I was anal because I had read
the manual.

:-)

Our plumber was bemused by me reading the manual - obviously he hadn't -
and pointing out that the configuration required a small expansion vessel
on the incoming cold water main.

I think even experienced plumbers assume that all boilers are much the
same and do a 'standard fit' procedure.

When I had my solar panels fitted, I had to go on the roof myself to show
the "electrician" how to wire them up.

DIY seems to be a dying hobby as well. You never see all the DIY magazines
nowadays that once existed.

Which is possibly more a reflection on the fact that "how to" magazines
in general are vanishing, as they get replaced by more timely delivery
of better content on the internet.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15/02/2014 20:12, Mr Pounder wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article 2,
DerbyBorn writes:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

... and one who clears drains...
... and one who does leadwork on roofs...

(However, having heard of some problems at a new old
people's home I wonder if some plumbers have never read the instructions
on how to assemble plastic pipe joints. It is costing thousands to
expose and chack all joints after several failed.)

I was speaking to a plumber about my heating. Whilst I can get a good
full bore flow out of one of the radiator pipes - the other is merely a
trickle. I feel it is a blockage at the microbore manifold)

The plumber told me that the one that trickled would be the return pipe
and water isn't meant to flew from it!. I thought of drawing a diagram
and explaining static pressure - but decided to play the thick punter
and nod.

At one end of the scale, you can find someone who thinks (wrongly)
that plastic pushfit needs no skills and matches their capability,
and at the other end, you will find someone with a science degree
who not only has acquired the skills to design and install the most
complex modern heating system, but also fully understands all the
physics, electronics, and chemistry involved in the process, and has
the diagnostic skills to quickly home in and remidy any problems.

Combine this range of skills with the additional complexity of
modern boilers, heating controls, multiple energy sources and home
generation, designing for efficiency (and my expectation that these
will get much more complex still) - there's a massive mismatch between
the skills base out there today, and what's actually required today,
and on into the future.

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

And this is only going to escalate.
How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?
Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

Obscene call out rates as the supply of willing people gets ever smaller ;-)

What was the tale of the barrister who called out an emergency plumber
to fix a problem. After 15 mins work the plumber fixed it, and handed
out a bill for £175. The barrister commented that he could not even
command that hourly rate as a barrister. To which the plumber replied,
"no neither could I when I was a barrister, that's why I retrained as a
plumber!"


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/02/2014 09:45, harryagain wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
.236...
wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-
:

DerbyBorn wrote:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes

fitter

and one who can solve heating problems.

engineer

My plumber is a plumbing and heating engineer who employs
plumbing and heating fitters while putting them through
the training to become plumbing and heating engineers
themselves.

jgh


I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve problems
and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

--

DerbyBorn

Michael Faraday and his ilk called themselves "electricians".
Just a matter of terminology.

and prior to that, electricians were stage performers and close up
"showmen" using electrical apparatus. However the world has moved on
somewhat, alas joe public's understanding of what an engineer is has not
it seems.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

(there is also the parallel argument, that many engineers who do have
the academic background may lack the practical aptitude and skills!)

I've worked with one or two of those.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

DIY seems to be a dying hobby as well. You never see all the DIY magazines
nowadays that once existed.



I remember getting interested in DIY when I was a kid. I would do odd
jobs for Gran. These increased in complexity and skill level required.

One day I was rewarded by Gran with a weekly magazine subscription to a
DiY folder collection by Marshall Cavendish in the early 1990's.

It was a weekly one and ran for 2 years. Think the weekly cost was a 2
quid, so total cost was 200 odd quid. You did end up with seven very big
ring binders though with 104 weeks worth of weekly inserts.

Anyone remember those? I've still got mine. I have not looked at it in
over 7 years. I expect some of the stuff is somewhat out of date with
updated building regs we have now.

On 16/02/2014 01:09, Onetap wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:12:02 PM UTC, Mr Pounder wrote:

And this is only going to escalate.

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

Your job won't get outsourced to Mumbai?

But you'll be undercut by an East European who's willing to take lower
pay than you can live on, while they live in a multi-occupancy house,
splitting the costs and saving up to take a lump sum home that will be
worth far more there.

SteveW

On 16/02/2014 08:38, DerbyBorn wrote:
wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-
:

DerbyBorn wrote:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes

fitter

and one who can solve heating problems.

engineer

My plumber is a plumbing and heating engineer who employs
plumbing and heating fitters while putting them through
the training to become plumbing and heating engineers
themselves.

jgh


I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve problems
and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

These days to become a member of one of the Institutes you generally
need at least an MSc and a number of years of experience.

Many other countries legally protect the term Engineer and prevent
non-members using the term, pretty much like Doctors, Barristers, etc.
and in these countries, Engineers enjoy the same status, levels of pay
and respect.

SteveW

On 16/02/2014 21:24, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 08:38, DerbyBorn wrote:
wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-
:

DerbyBorn wrote:
I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes

fitter

and one who can solve heating problems.

engineer

My plumber is a plumbing and heating engineer who employs
plumbing and heating fitters while putting them through
the training to become plumbing and heating engineers
themselves.

jgh


I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve problems
and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

These days to become a member of one of the Institutes you generally
need at least an MSc and a number of years of experience.

Many other countries legally protect the term Engineer and prevent
non-members using the term, pretty much like Doctors, Barristers, etc.
and in these countries, Engineers enjoy the same status, levels of pay
and respect.

SteveW



Where I work, to be called an Engineer you have to have to be qualified
to minimum HNC level; someone educated to this level is known as an
'Intermediate Engineer'.

--
Dawood

On 16/02/2014 22:14, gremlin_95 wrote:
On 16/02/2014 21:24, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 08:38, DerbyBorn wrote:
wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-

I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve problems
and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

These days to become a member of one of the Institutes you generally
need at least an MSc and a number of years of experience.

Many other countries legally protect the term Engineer and prevent
non-members using the term, pretty much like Doctors, Barristers, etc.
and in these countries, Engineers enjoy the same status, levels of pay
and respect.

Where I work, to be called an Engineer you have to have to be qualified
to minimum HNC level; someone educated to this level is known as an
'Intermediate Engineer'.

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to reverse
all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of "Engineer", and
Engineering jobs meant you were called a "[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

(although I was pleased to learn that I somehow fell through a gap in
the system - entering as a new graduate, got the job title of "Software
Engineer" which was a title they had never used before (or after it seems)!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/02/2014 09:49, harryagain wrote:


DIY seems to be a dying hobby as well. You never see all the DIY magazines
nowadays that once existed.


That's because with a bit of research on the Net you can usually find
out how to do it. You don't have to build up a 5 year collection of DIY
magazines to make sure that they have covered the task that you want to
do tomorrow.


--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to reverse
all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of "Engineer", and
Engineering jobs meant you were called a "[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to pay
the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give the
whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They split
the job titles.






--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

On 18/02/2014 04:09, alan wrote:
On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to reverse
all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of "Engineer", and
Engineering jobs meant you were called a "[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to pay
the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give the
whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They split
the job titles.

Don't know... other bits of Marconi proper in our area I have observed
did not seem to use those titles though


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/02/2014 21:18, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 01:09, Onetap wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:12:02 PM UTC, Mr Pounder wrote:

And this is only going to escalate.

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

Your job won't get outsourced to Mumbai?

But you'll be undercut by an East European who's willing to take lower
pay than you can live on, while they live in a multi-occupancy house,
splitting the costs and saving up to take a lump sum home that will be
worth far more there.

SteveW


This will become less true over time, as their wealth and standard of
living rises. Or ours falls, of course. Even in some of the apocalyptic
visions in the press at the moment, one can be reasonably confident that
plumbing skills will still be valued in 50 years time.

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 21:18:30 +0000, SteveW wrote:

But you'll be undercut by an East European who's willing to take lower
pay than you can live on, while they live in a multi-occupancy house,
splitting the costs and saving up to take a lump sum home that will be
worth far more there.

How dare the basic economic laws of supply and demand work against a
constant never-ending spiral of price inflation!

On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 13:31:20 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

Perhaps the Germanic-style kudos inherent in the word "engineer" should
apply?

Plumber - can fit pipes.
Heating engineer - can solve heating problems.

On 16/02/2014 14:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2014 16:48, harryagain wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

Similar parallels exist with modern automotive technology and
traditional mechanics.


BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

To an extent that is missing the key point of the argument... that
tradesmen traditionally are not recruited from the rigorous academic and
hard science backgrounds - and hence may be woefully lacking in the
background knowledge required to have a deep understanding of the modern
technology with which they work.

(there is also the parallel argument, that many engineers who do have
the academic background may lack the practical aptitude and skills!)


It's an interesting point, but a plumber never needs to solve a
differential equation analytically, although to diagnose a modern boiler
he might need some knowledge of electronics (including the ability to
use a DVM and/or data logger), materials science, fluid dynamics, and
heat transfer theory. And he might, if he is any good, end up solving
differential equations with a spreadsheet (without ever having heard of
explicit Euler integration schemes).

I suspect that part of the problem in the UK is that "Universities" used
to be for the intellectually elite, "Technical Colleges" for the
manually skilled. With half the population going to universities, these
should now be teaching plumbing (sorry, "Heating Engineering"). But I
don't think that enough of them are.

On 18/02/2014 04:09, alan wrote:
On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to reverse
all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of "Engineer", and
Engineering jobs meant you were called a "[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to pay
the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give the
whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They split
the job titles.


These days of course they do the same with the title "Manager"

On Tuesday 18 February 2014 11:59 newshound wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 18/02/2014 04:09, alan wrote:
On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to
reverse all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of
"Engineer", and Engineering jobs meant you were called a
"[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to
pay the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give
the whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They
split the job titles.


These days of course they do the same with the title "Manager"

There are relatively few "managers" who can actually manage anything
competantly.

Managers, like politicians, get the job because they are good at
smooching/brown noseing higher managers and because they are sod all use
at anything else.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal
coverage

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 16/02/2014 14:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2014 16:48, harryagain wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

This is a massive problem for people like boiler manufacturers,
heating control manufacturers, etc, because their products are for
the most part installed and serviced by plumbers who understand
almost nothing about the products and how to use them effectively,
and the extent to which they can be trained to do so is not very
large.

Similar parallels exist with modern automotive technology and
traditional mechanics.


BTW, no offence to a number of the plumbers here (or perhaps better
called heating engineers), some of which have come to this from
science and engineering backgrounds, but they're hard to find out
in the wild.

Tradesmen just don't get a proper training these days.

To an extent that is missing the key point of the argument... that
tradesmen traditionally are not recruited from the rigorous academic and
hard science backgrounds - and hence may be woefully lacking in the
background knowledge required to have a deep understanding of the modern
technology with which they work.

(there is also the parallel argument, that many engineers who do have
the academic background may lack the practical aptitude and skills!)


It's an interesting point, but a plumber never needs to solve a
differential equation analytically, although to diagnose a modern boiler
he might need some knowledge of electronics (including the ability to use
a DVM and/or data logger), materials science, fluid dynamics, and heat
transfer theory. And he might, if he is any good, end up solving
differential equations with a spreadsheet (without ever having heard of
explicit Euler integration schemes).

I suspect that part of the problem in the UK is that "Universities" used
to be for the intellectually elite, "Technical Colleges" for the manually
skilled. With half the population going to universities, these should now
be teaching plumbing (sorry, "Heating Engineering"). But I don't think
that enough of them are.

Problems in this sort of equipment are solved by previous experience.
Knowledge of weak design aspects.
And by substituting complex parts.
Most equipment can be fixed with about six spare parts.
And 90% of problems will need just one of them.


No advanced education required, just common sense.
Zero knowledge of electronics.

On 18/02/2014 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 18 February 2014 11:59 newshound wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 18/02/2014 04:09, alan wrote:
On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to
reverse all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of
"Engineer", and Engineering jobs meant you were called a
"[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to
pay the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give
the whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They
split the job titles.


These days of course they do the same with the title "Manager"

There are relatively few "managers" who can actually manage anything
competantly.

Managers, like politicians, get the job because they are good at
smooching/brown noseing higher managers and because they are sod all use
at anything else.


In my industry, neither the job nor the competency changes; just the job
*title*. Oh, and the "real" managers become directors.

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 13:31:20 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

Perhaps the Germanic-style kudos inherent in the word "engineer" should
apply?

Plumber - can fit pipes.
Heating engineer - can solve heating problems.

Plumber= Domestic work.
Heating engineer = Industrial/commercialwork.

On 18/02/2014 11:38, newshound wrote:
On 16/02/2014 21:18, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 01:09, Onetap wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:12:02 PM UTC, Mr Pounder wrote:

And this is only going to escalate.

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

Your job won't get outsourced to Mumbai?

But you'll be undercut by an East European who's willing to take lower
pay than you can live on, while they live in a multi-occupancy house,
splitting the costs and saving up to take a lump sum home that will be
worth far more there.

SteveW


This will become less true over time, as their wealth and standard of
living rises. Or ours falls, of course. Even in some of the apocalyptic
visions in the press at the moment, one can be reasonably confident that
plumbing skills will still be valued in 50 years time.

Oh, yes, things will even out, but that could take decades. Why would
someone want to train in a skill where they end up being undercut from
the start?

SteveW

On 18/02/2014 18:01, harryagain wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 13:31:20 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

I often wonder whether there should be a different title to
differentiate between a plumber who can fit pipes and one who can solve
heating problems.

Perhaps the Germanic-style kudos inherent in the word "engineer" should
apply?

Plumber - can fit pipes.
Heating engineer - can solve heating problems.

Plumber= Domestic work.
Heating engineer = Industrial/commercialwork.

Industrial/commercial is still a plumber. Plumbers may well be able to
"design" standardish systems, but they will not have the background
academic knowledge to be able apply their experience and knowledge to
something way out of the ordinary.

SteveW