My mate has just had a plumber to resolve poor performance of his heating.
He turned up at 15:00 with a new pump. He found the gate valves were siezed
so he drained the system. He fitted the new pump without replacing the gate
valves Short sighted or what?
The system is no better.





--

DerbyBorn

SteveW wrote:
Industrial/commercial is still a plumber. Plumbers may well be
able to "design" standardish systems, but they will not have
the background academic knowledge to be able apply their
experience and knowledge to something way out of the ordinary.

To use electricians as an comparison, a fitter can go along
to a standard house and install two standard rings, two
standard lights, a standard cooker, with 1.5, 2.5 and 4 mil
with the standard fuses in the CU. An engineer can go along
to a non-standard building and measure and calculate that
this cable needs to be 16mm and protected by this breaker,
and this circuit is so far away it needs to be 10mm and
that can't be a spur, and that installation method X must
be used, etc, optionally instructing fitters to do the
actual fitting.

jgh

On Tuesday 18 February 2014 19:21 DerbyBorn wrote in uk.d-i-y:

My mate has just had a plumber to resolve poor performance of his
heating. He turned up at 15:00 with a new pump. He found the gate
valves were siezed so he drained the system. He fitted the new pump
without replacing the gate valves Short sighted or what?
The system is no better.


And he didn't have a portable pipe freezer rig?

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal
coverage

On 18/02/2014 18:10, SteveW wrote:
On 18/02/2014 11:38, newshound wrote:
On 16/02/2014 21:18, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 01:09, Onetap wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:12:02 PM UTC, Mr Pounder wrote:

And this is only going to escalate.

How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?

Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?

Your job won't get outsourced to Mumbai?

But you'll be undercut by an East European who's willing to take lower
pay than you can live on, while they live in a multi-occupancy house,
splitting the costs and saving up to take a lump sum home that will be
worth far more there.

SteveW


This will become less true over time, as their wealth and standard of
living rises. Or ours falls, of course. Even in some of the apocalyptic
visions in the press at the moment, one can be reasonably confident that
plumbing skills will still be valued in 50 years time.

Oh, yes, things will even out, but that could take decades. Why would
someone want to train in a skill where they end up being undercut from
the start?

SteveW

Because it is better than not training and living on benefits? Pick the
right trade and there will always be work. Train to fit solar panels,
OTOH....

On 18/02/2014 13:14, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 18 February 2014 11:59 newshound wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 18/02/2014 04:09, alan wrote:
On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to
reverse all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of
"Engineer", and Engineering jobs meant you were called a
"[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to
pay the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give
the whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They
split the job titles.


These days of course they do the same with the title "Manager"

There are relatively few "managers" who can actually manage anything
competantly.

Managers, like politicians, get the job because they are good at
smooching/brown noseing higher managers and because they are sod all use
at anything else.


Spoken from the heart! :-)

On 18/02/2014 11:48, Adrian wrote:
Perhaps the Germanic-style kudos inherent in the word "engineer" should
apply?

I can agree with that

Plumber - can fit pipes.
Heating engineer - can solve heating problems.

But not that. A heating engineer might be designing the system to feed a
shopping mall, or designing new boilers. The guy who fixes my house
boiler? Nope.

Andy

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:42:56 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 16/02/2014 22:14, gremlin_95 wrote:
On 16/02/2014 21:24, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 08:38, DerbyBorn wrote:
wrote in news:30e5fb38-e9bd-4867-a5bd-

I think "Engineer" is over the top. "Technician" would be more
appropriate. An Engineer is someone who uses science to solve
problems and design solutions and is professionally qualified.

These days to become a member of one of the Institutes you generally
need at least an MSc and a number of years of experience.

Many other countries legally protect the term Engineer and prevent
non-members using the term, pretty much like Doctors, Barristers, etc.
and in these countries, Engineers enjoy the same status, levels of pay
and respect.

Where I work, to be called an Engineer you have to have to be qualified
to minimum HNC level; someone educated to this level is known as an
'Intermediate Engineer'.

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to reverse
all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of "Engineer", and
Engineering jobs meant you were called a "[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

(although I was pleased to learn that I somehow fell through a gap in
the system - entering as a new graduate, got the job title of "Software
Engineer" which was a title they had never used before (or after it
seems)!

GEC Software Engineer?

Did you by any chance work at any time on System X?

Although ISTR it was mainly Plessey that did that.

Cheers

Dave R

On 18/02/2014 20:27, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:42:56 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to reverse
all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of "Engineer", and
Engineering jobs meant you were called a "[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

(although I was pleased to learn that I somehow fell through a gap in
the system - entering as a new graduate, got the job title of "Software
Engineer" which was a title they had never used before (or after it
seems)!

GEC Software Engineer?

Did you by any chance work at any time on System X?

No, this was GEC Sensors "Electro Optical Surveillance Division" -
avionics, thermal imaging etc.

Although ISTR it was mainly Plessey that did that.

I recall working with one Scottish engineer who was desperate to get out
of the GEC empire, and also get a job closer to home. He was well
chuffed when he landed a job at Plessey in Scotland. I presume somewhat
less chuffed when they acquired them a few months later!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/02/2014 20:24, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 18/02/2014 11:48, Adrian wrote:
Perhaps the Germanic-style kudos inherent in the word "engineer" should
apply?

I can agree with that

Plumber - can fit pipes.
Heating engineer - can solve heating problems.

But not that. A heating engineer might be designing the system to feed a
shopping mall, or designing new boilers. The guy who fixes my house
boiler? Nope.

Don't discount the possibility that your plumber is also an engineer...
e.g. our own John S.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
newshound writes:
On 18/02/2014 18:10, SteveW wrote:
Oh, yes, things will even out, but that could take decades. Why would
someone want to train in a skill where they end up being undercut from
the start?

SteveW

Because it is better than not training and living on benefits? Pick the
right trade and there will always be work. Train to fit solar panels,
OTOH....

The important thing will be to have the education to understand the
field you go into, and to continue to develop as it changes. That's
rather different from many of today's apprentices who learn by rote,
but don't actually understand how things work or why they are taught
to do things the way they are. I think those roles will dwindlw.

Having the educational backing also means you can relatively easily
change field as one field dies and another emerges - the really
important thing it gives you is learning how to learn, and I think
the number of jobs which don't require continuous learning/development
over the next decades will very rapidly shrink, as it has been for
many decades already, but even more so.

I caught the tail-end of something on the radio a few days ago which
was pointing out that you need to be educated to degree level in
Germany to become a chimney sweep, because you are expected to have
a very detailed understanding of all the appliances, the physics
behind how they operate, building construction, etc, before you can
be suitably qualified.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday 18 February 2014 11:59 newshound wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 18/02/2014 04:09, alan wrote:
On 17/02/2014 16:42, John Rumm wrote:

I remember in my first job in a branch of GEC, they seemed to
reverse all the job titles. Technician level jobs got a title of
"Engineer", and Engineering jobs meant you were called a
"[Junior|Senior] Technologist"

Wasn't that more to do with pay scales? Some of GEC/Marconi had to
pay the people they wanted to keep more money but didn't what to give
the whole of the technical workforce the same salary increases. They
split the job titles.


These days of course they do the same with the title "Manager"

There are relatively few "managers" who can actually manage anything
competantly.

Yes, this is true.
Exactly the problem in the NHS in such places as Stafford.
Managers in the NHS used to work up from the bottom and knew everything
about what went on at all levels.
The arseholes they get now know nothing.

The problem is, turkeys don't votefor Christmas.

On Sunday, February 16, 2014 9:18:30 PM UTC, SteveW wrote:
On 16/02/2014 01:09, Onetap wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:12:02 PM UTC, Mr Pounder wrote:



And this is only going to escalate.



How many kids of say 12 years old want to be a plumber?



Where is the attraction/excitement in being a plumber?



Your job won't get outsourced to Mumbai?



But you'll be undercut by an East European who's willing to take lower

pay than you can live on, while they live in a multi-occupancy house,

splitting the costs and saving up to take a lump sum home that will be

worth far more there.



SteveW

That's a risk, but the job still involves fitting hardware in the UK so you can be confident you won't be replaced by a machine, nor can the work be done for a pittance by bright young men in Mumbai and e-mailed to the customer.

A relative is in the final stages of a plumbing apprenticeship. A large portion of the work involves rectifying the work of various East Europeans 'plumbers' who, the customer had thought, had done the work for a bargain price. For example, 'bargain' East European plasterers worked in a rented flat; some time later, it was found they'd stolen all the copper heating pipework from under the first floor.

There are competent & honest East Europeans, but it takes time for them to acquire a good reputation, like any other Uk-born plumber.

On 20/02/2014 14:40, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
newshound writes:
On 18/02/2014 18:10, SteveW wrote:
Oh, yes, things will even out, but that could take decades. Why would
someone want to train in a skill where they end up being undercut from
the start?

SteveW

Because it is better than not training and living on benefits? Pick the
right trade and there will always be work. Train to fit solar panels,
OTOH....

The important thing will be to have the education to understand the
field you go into, and to continue to develop as it changes. That's
rather different from many of today's apprentices who learn by rote,
but don't actually understand how things work or why they are taught
to do things the way they are. I think those roles will dwindlw.

Having the educational backing also means you can relatively easily
change field as one field dies and another emerges - the really
important thing it gives you is learning how to learn, and I think
the number of jobs which don't require continuous learning/development
over the next decades will very rapidly shrink, as it has been for
many decades already, but even more so.

I caught the tail-end of something on the radio a few days ago which
was pointing out that you need to be educated to degree level in
Germany to become a chimney sweep, because you are expected to have
a very detailed understanding of all the appliances, the physics
behind how they operate, building construction, etc, before you can
be suitably qualified.


I agree completely. But I suspect that plumbing is a more stable trade
than most because the basic requirements, components, materials, and
jointing methods are not going to change all that much in the next 50
years. OK we will have better plastics, and might start using
electrically heated instead of solvent weld on domestic as well as
"distribution" pipework. We'll probably have more heat pumps too (but
refrigeration/air con is already one specialist sub-set of plumbing).
While boilers and their control systems will undoubtedly get more
complicated, there will be "wizards" for setting them up, and
self-diagnosis routines should also get very much better.

On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 18:05:45 +0000, newshound wrote:

While boilers and their control systems will undoubtedly get more
complicated, there will be "wizards" for setting them up, and
self-diagnosis routines should also get very much better.

If I could find a well-constructed boiler with sound and confidence-
inspiring mechanical components, I'd be sorely tempted to rip out all the
crappy, poor quality Chinese electrics/electronics control circuits you
typically find and replace them all with my own bespoke systems, properly
designed from scratch. Absolutely no mains voltage control signals for a
start!
Does anyone know of a manufacturer whose new boilers are properly
engineered for a long and reliable life (apart from the inevitable crap
electrics, of course)?