Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my mother's
house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it; when it's
flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly loud humming
or moaning sound - which mum tells me is audible also in the room next door
and the one next to that (a kitchen). The sound continues for 20-25 seconds
then dies away.

The WC cistern is inside a sort of cupboard, which I opened last time I was
there. There's no sign of any water leaks (mum's biggest concern). When the
WC is flushed the copper pipe which brings water to the cistern is
definitely vibrating. If I grip the pipe the vibration and sound both
reduce. The CW comes from an attic CW tank which must be about 20 feet
higher.

I assume the noise is audible elsewhere because it's being carried along the
CW pipe to the kitchen...

But why would something like this suddenly start?

The cistern's float and the valve it operates seem to be working fine,
though the valve is a but grungy on the outside. I did wonder if it might
have something adrift inside causing turbulence in the water flow, and in
turn whether that could cause a problem in the supply pipe?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts scribbled...


Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my mother's
house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it; when it's
flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly loud humming
or moaning sound - which mum tells me is audible also in the room next door
and the one next to that (a kitchen). The sound continues for 20-25 seconds
then dies away.

The WC cistern is inside a sort of cupboard, which I opened last time I was
there. There's no sign of any water leaks (mum's biggest concern). When the
WC is flushed the copper pipe which brings water to the cistern is
definitely vibrating. If I grip the pipe the vibration and sound both
reduce. The CW comes from an attic CW tank which must be about 20 feet
higher.

I assume the noise is audible elsewhere because it's being carried along the
CW pipe to the kitchen...

But why would something like this suddenly start?

The cistern's float and the valve it operates seem to be working fine,
though the valve is a but grungy on the outside. I did wonder if it might
have something adrift inside causing turbulence in the water flow, and in
turn whether that could cause a problem in the supply pipe?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:16:31 -0000, Artic wrote:

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts scribbled...


Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my mother's
house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it; when it's
flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly loud humming
or moaning sound - which mum tells me is audible also in the room next door
and the one next to that (a kitchen). The sound continues for 20-25 seconds
then dies away.

The WC cistern is inside a sort of cupboard, which I opened last time I was
there. There's no sign of any water leaks (mum's biggest concern). When the
WC is flushed the copper pipe which brings water to the cistern is
definitely vibrating. If I grip the pipe the vibration and sound both
reduce. The CW comes from an attic CW tank which must be about 20 feet
higher.

I assume the noise is audible elsewhere because it's being carried along the
CW pipe to the kitchen...

But why would something like this suddenly start?

The cistern's float and the valve it operates seem to be working fine,
though the valve is a but grungy on the outside. I did wonder if it might
have something adrift inside causing turbulence in the water flow, and in
turn whether that could cause a problem in the supply pipe?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer

It's not hammer, it's his valve playing at being an oboe.

Just change the washer in the valve, it has got the nozzle of the
inlet impressed into it, causing it to vibrate like a musical
instrument. You could hear mine three houses down in the middle of
the night at one time.

As an immediate relief, reduce the pressure of the water going to the
system if you have a valve to do this.

As an immediate relief, reduce the pressure of the water going to the
system if you have a valve to do this.


Are you sure the CW is fed from the loft cistern?

Are you sure you know which ball valve is making the noise?

As others have said - a new washer is likely to solve it as the errosion
pattern on the washer is causing a vibration.

Reducing pressure is an odd suggestion and would only work if it is the
tank in the loft making the noise. It doesn't reduce the static pressure
(so yuo will get a blast when the valve first opens) but you will get an
annoying reduction in the flow rate and maybe noise from the stop tap.

--

DerbyBorn

In message , EricP
writes
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:16:31 -0000, Artic wrote:

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts scribbled...


Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my mother's
house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it; when it's
flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly loud humming
or moaning sound - which mum tells me is audible also in the room next door
and the one next to that (a kitchen). The sound continues for 20-25 seconds
then dies away.

The WC cistern is inside a sort of cupboard, which I opened last time I was
there. There's no sign of any water leaks (mum's biggest concern). When the
WC is flushed the copper pipe which brings water to the cistern is
definitely vibrating. If I grip the pipe the vibration and sound both
reduce. The CW comes from an attic CW tank which must be about 20 feet
higher.

I assume the noise is audible elsewhere because it's being carried along the
CW pipe to the kitchen...

But why would something like this suddenly start?

The cistern's float and the valve it operates seem to be working fine,
though the valve is a but grungy on the outside. I did wonder if it might
have something adrift inside causing turbulence in the water flow, and in
turn whether that could cause a problem in the supply pipe?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer

It's not hammer, it's his valve playing at being an oboe.

Just change the washer in the valve, it has got the nozzle of the
inlet impressed into it, causing it to vibrate like a musical
instrument. You could hear mine three houses down in the middle of
the night at one time.

As an immediate relief, reduce the pressure of the water going to the
system if you have a valve to do this.

I had the same problem with the a hot tap (a quarter turn type) in the
kitchen. The whole house was suddenly filled with a loud buzz. It was
most alarming. It sounded like a large mains transformer that had
suddenly developed a short circuit on the secondary - but I couldn't
imagine what electrical equipment in the house would have a transformer
large enough to produce such a noise.

I was upstairs at the time, and as it wasn't obvious where the noise was
coming from, so there was no way of stopping it. I then thought "water",
and soon afterwards managed to track down the culprit. I found that
unless you turned it off very slowly, the tap would always start the
buzz going - and even then there was no guarantee that the buzz would
not spontaneously start off later on.

I examined the cartridge, but couldn't see anything wrong with it. As I
live in a very hard water area, I suspected that some unseen chalk
deposits might be affecting the sealing (although the tap showed
absolutely no signs of dripping), so I gave the cartridge a good soak in
Kilrock-K. Afterwards, it was a bit better, but the buzz would still
occur from time-to-time. In the end, I replaced the cartridge, and that
cured things.
--
Ian

Well, does the pipe at any point have a longish horizontal run?
I had an issue like this a long time ago when I could see and for some odd
reason all it was was a clamp that had fallen to bits in the middle of a
longiish horizontal run. Refixing the pipe stopped it, where there was air
in the pipe making it slosh at a high frequency or what I never did find
out!

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Jeremy Nicoll - news posts" wrote
in message nvalid...
Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my
mother's
house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it; when it's
flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly loud humming
or moaning sound - which mum tells me is audible also in the room next
door
and the one next to that (a kitchen). The sound continues for 20-25
seconds
then dies away.

The WC cistern is inside a sort of cupboard, which I opened last time I
was
there. There's no sign of any water leaks (mum's biggest concern). When
the
WC is flushed the copper pipe which brings water to the cistern is
definitely vibrating. If I grip the pipe the vibration and sound both
reduce. The CW comes from an attic CW tank which must be about 20 feet
higher.

I assume the noise is audible elsewhere because it's being carried along
the
CW pipe to the kitchen...

But why would something like this suddenly start?

The cistern's float and the valve it operates seem to be working fine,
though the valve is a but grungy on the outside. I did wonder if it might
have something adrift inside causing turbulence in the water flow, and in
turn whether that could cause a problem in the supply pipe?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

Could be, but modern washers seem more immune to this almost perished state
than older ones were.
One way to test it is to forcible move the float up and down and see if its
position dependent, if it is and the flow does not vary that much then it
is probably time to change the washer and de lime scale the valve.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"EricP" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:16:31 -0000, Artic wrote:

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts scribbled...


Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my
mother's
house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it; when
it's
flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly loud
humming
or moaning sound - which mum tells me is audible also in the room next
door
and the one next to that (a kitchen). The sound continues for 20-25
seconds
then dies away.

The WC cistern is inside a sort of cupboard, which I opened last time I
was
there. There's no sign of any water leaks (mum's biggest concern). When
the
WC is flushed the copper pipe which brings water to the cistern is
definitely vibrating. If I grip the pipe the vibration and sound both
reduce. The CW comes from an attic CW tank which must be about 20 feet
higher.

I assume the noise is audible elsewhere because it's being carried along
the
CW pipe to the kitchen...

But why would something like this suddenly start?

The cistern's float and the valve it operates seem to be working fine,
though the valve is a but grungy on the outside. I did wonder if it
might
have something adrift inside causing turbulence in the water flow, and
in
turn whether that could cause a problem in the supply pipe?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer

It's not hammer, it's his valve playing at being an oboe.

Just change the washer in the valve, it has got the nozzle of the
inlet impressed into it, causing it to vibrate like a musical
instrument. You could hear mine three houses down in the middle of
the night at one time.

As an immediate relief, reduce the pressure of the water going to the
system if you have a valve to do this.

"Brian Gaff" wrote:

Well, does the pipe at any point have a longish horizontal run?

I can't see why the pipe to the cistern would have, as the water tank is
more or less vertically above the utility room, and I know water pipes run
down through an upstairs cupboard that's between the attic and utility room.

Underfloor access is very poor, especially from my point of view as an
overweight unfit Gruffalo.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

"Brian Gaff" wrote:

Could be, but modern washers seem more immune to this almost perished
state than older ones were. One way to test it is to forcible move the
float up and down and see if its position dependent, if it is and the
flow does not vary that much then it is probably time to change the washer
and de lime scale the valve. Brian

I think the washer more than likely isn't very modern - maybe as much as
20-30 years old. Next week, as a break from fake festive cheer, I'll see if
I can get the valve apart.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:12:09 +0000, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

I think the washer more than likely isn't very modern - maybe as much as
20-30 years old. Next week, as a break from fake festive cheer, I'll
see if I can get the valve apart.

Is this the only loo? Have a bucket ready to fill from the bath for
flushing.

An untouched 20-30 year old ball valve, even in a soft water area, is
quite likely to be "reluctant" to come apart. I'd just get a
Torbeck(*) valve and replace it...

(*) Silent fill equilbrium valve, Torbeck is a particular brand
others are available. Silent and faster filling than the traditional
ball valve.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in
:

Could be, but modern washers seem more immune to this almost perished
state than older ones were.
One way to test it is to forcible move the float up and down and see
if its
position dependent, if it is and the flow does not vary that much
then it is probably time to change the washer and de lime scale the
valve.
Brian


No-one would want to change a cheap washer without good reason! What is
preventive maintenance?

--

DerbyBorn

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

Sometime in the last week or three something odd has happened in my
mother's house. There's a downstairs utility room which has a WC in it;
when it's flushed there a second or two of silence then an increasingly
loud humming or moaning sound ...

Thanks to everyone who advised me about this - replacing the diaphragm
washer in the fill-valve fixed the problem.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".