I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging to
combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then perhaps
they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

On Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:12:04 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be
damaging to combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling
reveals no unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to
know what people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and
the softener I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico
about the installation and they never mentioned any possible problem,
but then perhaps they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

The manual for my Worcester Bosch warns against filling the central
heating part with softened water.

No problem - just engage the bypass for the water softener and then run
some hot water through to flush out the softened water before filling up
the central heating.

There are no warnings about running softened water through the hot water
side - you have to fit a water conditioner in hard water areas to prevent
scaling up if you don't have a water softener.

HTH

Dave R

David WE Roberts wrote:

The manual for my Worcester Bosch warns against filling the central
heating part with softened water.

Ah, so it's only when refilling or topping up the heating system's water
that it becomes an issue? That's good news, many thanks.

On 10/10/13 10:12, Bert Coules wrote:
I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be
damaging to combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling
reveals no unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to
know what people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and
the softener I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico
about the installation and they never mentioned any possible problem,
but then perhaps they wouldn't.

Many thanks.
Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft
water areas?'

I think not.

Only issue is pressure reduction but thats cured by using the right size
of softener and pipework.

even if it has small connectors, use bigger pipes in and out and adapters.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft water
areas?'

Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened water has
properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's these
properties which might be damaging in some way.

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:13:16 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft water
areas?'


Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened water has
properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's these
properties which might be damaging in some way.

The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps. it has a lot of sodium in it.

Robert

RobertL wrote:

The same ones that mean you should not drink
softened water, perhaps. it has a lot of sodium in it.

I was going to ask about that. Again, there seem to be several schools of
thought, or rather two: it is OK to drink softened water and it isn't.

If you believe the second, isn't there a device which you can plumb in just
before the kitchen cold water tap to remove the sodium? But does that have
the effect of making the water hard again?

In my case it would be a very major disruption to install a separate branch
of the incoming main just to feed a kitchen tap (and an outdoor tap) so the
idea of softening all the system has a certain appeal.

In article , Bert Coules
wrote:
RobertL wrote:

The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps.
it has a lot of sodium in it.

I was going to ask about that. Again, there seem to be several schools
of thought, or rather two: it is OK to drink softened water and it isn't.

If you believe the second, isn't there a device which you can plumb in
just before the kitchen cold water tap to remove the sodium? But does
that have the effect of making the water hard again?

In my case it would be a very major disruption to install a separate
branch of the incoming main just to feed a kitchen tap (and an outdoor
tap) so the idea of softening all the system has a certain appeal.

In my case, the water softener is beside the storage tank; the kitchen tap
and the outside ones are fed from before the device. My CH storage tank
get softened water too. It should minimise scaling in the boiler.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 10/10/13 11:39, Bert Coules wrote:
RobertL wrote:

The same ones that mean you should not drink
softened water, perhaps. it has a lot of sodium in it.

I was going to ask about that. Again, there seem to be several schools
of thought, or rather two: it is OK to drink softened water and it isn't.

If you believe the second, isn't there a device which you can plumb in
just before the kitchen cold water tap to remove the sodium? But does
that have the effect of making the water hard again?

In my case it would be a very major disruption to install a separate
branch of the incoming main just to feed a kitchen tap (and an outdoor
tap) so the idea of softening all the system has a certain appeal.


I am afraid you legally need to do that.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 10/10/13 11:32, RobertL wrote:
On Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:13:16 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft water
areas?'


Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened water has
properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's these
properties which might be damaging in some way.

The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps. it has a lot of sodium in it.


yeah, about a crisp packet per ten gallons worth.

Robert





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 10/10/2013 11:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/10/13 11:32, RobertL wrote:
On Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:13:16 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in
soft water
areas?'


Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened
water has
properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's
these
properties which might be damaging in some way.

The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps.
it has a lot of sodium in it.


yeah, about a crisp packet per ten gallons worth.


Lets take London's hard water to have a calcium carbonate content of 300mg/l

After softening that would correspond to a sodium content of 140mg/l or
a salt content of 350mg/l

So 10 gallons would have 15g of salt.

Does that mean when I buy my multipack of Walkers crisps (23g) I'm
paying for 65% salt? Wow!

Or do you have some humongous sized bag in mind!

In article ,
RobertL wrote:

The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps.
it has a lot of sodium in it.


Where "a lot" means typically about 1/200 of the recommended maximum
daily intake in a glass of water. This is only something to be
concerned about if you are on a strict low-sodium diet for medical
reasons.

-- Richard

On 10/10/13 11:13, Bert Coules wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft
water areas?'

Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened water
has properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's
these properties which might be damaging in some way.


sodium carbonate?

hardly the world worst corrosive agent.

obviously fill CV up with correct fernox stuff and so on, but really
........



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging
to combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then
perhaps they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

Softened water does not "get along with" the chemicals recommended for the
system especially if there is an aluminiun heat exchanger.
http://www.aqua-nouveau.co.uk/wp-con...ilers_p456.pdf


You're not supposed to drink it either The calcium bit has been replaced
with sodium.

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:12:04 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:

There's not much on the HW side of a combi that might be damaged by softened water; only the plate heat exchanger really and that shouldn't be affected.
There are thousands of commercial installations running softened DHW through PHXs. I ran a PHX water system (not a combi) on softened water for 4 or 5 years with no problems at all.

If you have a water softener, then you have hard water and that will certainly scale up the secondary side of the plate heat exchanger if unsoftened.

There is widespread misunderstanding of both water softening and combi boilers all over the internet.

Onetap wrote:

There's not much on the HW side of a combi
that might be damaged by softened water...

Thanks very much for that.

I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking - as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility. Went back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done for just £220.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

wrote in message
...
I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block salt.
There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking - as every
time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so slightly salty! My
boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined because of this ( Worcester
Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by the Insurance boiler cover I had -
beyond economic feasibility. Went back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their
product got it done for just £220.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for
magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

The salt regenerates the chemical that softens the water. Nothing to do with
cleaning.
A softener prevents scale build up in your boiler heatX.

The magnetic/electronic softeners are pure bollix.

On 23/03/2014 11:59, wrote:
I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block
salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking -
as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so
slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined
because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by
the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility. Went
back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done for
just £220.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go
for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.


The WB callout charge is a good deal if something serious needs
replacing, plus they invariably have the part on board and are gone
within the hour. Can't see why a water softener would ruin your heat
exchanger though

On 23/03/2014 16:54, stuart noble wrote:
On 23/03/2014 11:59, wrote:
I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block
salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking -
as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so
slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined
because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by
the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility. Went
back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done for
just £220.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go
for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.


The WB callout charge is a good deal if something serious needs
replacing, plus they invariably have the part on board and are gone
within the hour. Can't see why a water softener would ruin your heat
exchanger though

It would help if it was made clear which HEX was being discussed - the
primary or the secondary plate HE. The primary's only potential contact
with softened water is from the initial fill. Assuming the system is not
being refilled often, and is treated with corrosion inhibitor the
chances of softened water causing it any damage would seem remote.

The PHE use for the DHW side of the combi would obviously be more at
risk (but that is certainly not a "beyond economic replacement" item.
Also most combi makers fitting instructions require some form of scale
inhibition system to be present.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 23/03/2014 11:59, wrote:
I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

I bet you cannot find an independent test that says they work.

BTW salty taste in softened water is a fault.

Andy

Vir Campestris wrote:
On 23/03/2014 11:59, wrote:
I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for
magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

I bet you cannot find an independent test that says they work.

BTW salty taste in softened water is a fault.

Andy

I think Lily is in the bogus water softener market...

Tim

On 23/03/14 17:20, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 23/03/2014 11:59, wrote:
I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for
magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

I bet you cannot find an independent test that says they work.

BTW salty taste in softened water is a fault.

Andy
Depends what you mean by 'salty' Mine tastes as it should of sodium
carbonate.

Slightly similar to sodium bicarbonate or baking powder..


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Sunday, March 23, 2014 11:59:22 AM UTC, wrote:
I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking - as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility. Went back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done for just £220.


The softener is regenerated with brine.
After all the brine is drawn off, there is a rinse stage, during which water continues flowing through the resin and down the drain, to remove all traces of salt.

The fact that the water tasted salty suggests too much brine and/or too short a rinse, i.e., the softener was defective.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

They're not softeners and they don't process the hard water. They remove none of the hardness.
The dissolved calcium and magnesium salt content remains exactly the same.

On 23/03/2014 16:51, Huge wrote:
On 2014-03-23, wrote:
I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block
salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking
- as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so
slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined
because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by
the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility.
Went back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done
for just £220.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go
for magnets or electronic gadgets which ...

... do absolutely nothing.



AIUI the principle works in industry, and a magnet the size of a double
kitchen unit might just handle domestic mains pressure water.....

On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:54:22 +0000
stuart noble wrote:

AIUI the principle works in industry,

Some references would be interesting. I can find lots of claims, but
nothing definitive.

--
Davey.

Davey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:54:22 +0000
stuart noble wrote:

AIUI the principle works in industry,

Some references would be interesting. I can find lots of claims, but
nothing definitive.


Please, let's not go there. ;-) I thing most folk would agree that ion
exchange water softeners DO work (other than the OP).

Tim

On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:22:59 +0000 (UTC)
Tim+ wrote:

Davey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:54:22 +0000
stuart noble wrote:

AIUI the principle works in industry,

Some references would be interesting. I can find lots of claims, but
nothing definitive.


Please, let's not go there. ;-) I thing most folk would agree that
ion exchange water softeners DO work (other than the OP).

Tim

I thought that this claim ("AIUI the principle works in industry"),
was about magnets working. Ion exchange, no problem. Magnets, not so sure.

--
Davey.

On Thursday, 10 October 2013 10:12:04 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging to
combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then perhaps
they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

All this talk of SALT in SOFTENED WATER is rubbish SALT is not added to the water supply with softners it is used for Cleaning & Regeneration of the Resin which softens the water. The salt tank has water added to produce a Brine which is pushed through the resin tank to clean it and then pumped out followed by flushing with Clean water to remove any remaining salt! during this process the house supply is shut off ( Bypassed ) and reopened after so NO SALT enters the house supply. If you have Salt ? Salt Taste in your softned / drinking water your System is FAULTY and needs checking.

BY THE WAY.. I still Have A Halsted Trio Combi Boiler running on Softned Water which is 22 years old and still running without ever needing a heat exchanger! Only part ever needed in that time is the 3 way valve changed twice.. I bet a new Condensing Combi will not go that long!!

Where are these old threads coming from?
2013?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 10 October 2013 10:12:04 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging
to
combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the
softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then
perhaps
they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

All this talk of SALT in SOFTENED WATER is rubbish SALT is not added to the
water supply with softners it is used for Cleaning & Regeneration of the
Resin which softens the water. The salt tank has water added to produce a
Brine which is pushed through the resin tank to clean it and then pumped out
followed by flushing with Clean water to remove any remaining salt! during
this process the house supply is shut off ( Bypassed ) and reopened after so
NO SALT enters the house supply. If you have Salt ? Salt Taste in your
softned / drinking water your System is FAULTY and needs checking.

BY THE WAY.. I still Have A Halsted Trio Combi Boiler running on Softned
Water which is 22 years old and still running without ever needing a heat
exchanger! Only part ever needed in that time is the 3 way valve changed
twice. I bet a new Condensing Combi will not go that long!!

On Thursday, 10 October 2013 10:12:04 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging to
combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then perhaps
they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

All this talk of SALT in SOFTENED WATER is rubbish SALT is not added to the water supply with softners it is used for Cleaning & Regeneration of the Resin which softens the water. The salt tank has water added to produce a Brine which is pushed through the resin tank to clean it and then pumped out followed by flushing with Clean water to remove any remaining salt! during this process the house supply is shut off ( Bypassed ) and reopened after so NO SALT enters the house supply. If you have Salt ? Salt Taste in your softned / drinking water your System is FAULTY and needs checking.

BY THE WAY.. I still Have A Halsted Trio Combi Boiler running on Softned Water which is 22 years old and still running without ever needing a heat exchanger! Only part ever needed in that time is the 3 way valve changed twice.. I bet a new Condensing Combi will not go that long!!

On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 01:42:21 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, 10 October 2013 10:12:04 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging to
combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then perhaps
they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

All this talk of SALT in SOFTENED WATER is rubbish SALT is not added to the water supply with softners it is used for Cleaning & Regeneration of the Resin which softens the water. The salt tank has water added to produce a Brine which is pushed through the resin tank to clean it and then pumped out followed by flushing with Clean water to remove any remaining salt! during this process the house supply is shut off ( Bypassed ) and reopened after so NO SALT enters the house supply. If you have Salt ? Salt Taste in your softned / drinking water your System is FAULTY and needs checking.

BY THE WAY.. I still Have A Halsted Trio Combi Boiler running on Softned Water which is 22 years old and still running without ever needing a heat exchanger! Only part ever needed in that time is the 3 way valve changed twice. I bet a new Condensing Combi will not go that long!!


YOU are REPLYING to a THREAD from 2013.

THE SALT regenerates the resin by displacing calcium with sodium within the
resin. In daily USE, the SODIUM ions again replaces the CALCIUM ions. So there
are sodium in the water rather than calcium ions...