What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...

On 11/09/13 19:53, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...


now look, they had a nice insulated hive, and were all buzzing round
happily 2 days ago, all 50,000 of them, and now they are all dead. two
days ago the farmer sprayed his crop the other side of the hedge from
them...its too much of a coincidence. The wasps then got in and ate the
honey



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 11/09/13 19:53, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...


now look, they had a nice insulated hive, and were all buzzing round
happily 2 days ago, all 50,000 of them, and now they are all dead. two
days ago the farmer sprayed his crop the other side of the hedge from
them...its too much of a coincidence. The wasps then got in and ate the
honey

Sorry to hear that. Are you sure the wasps didn't kill them?
That's common at this time of year when wasps are looking for
any sugar they can find, and it's getting to be in short supply
outdoors. Particularly common with some of the non-native wasp
species which are springing up. If you have any of the wasps,
might be worth saving them for species identification.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/13 19:53, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...


now look, they had a nice insulated hive, and were all buzzing round
happily 2 days ago, all 50,000 of them, and now they are all dead. two
days ago the farmer sprayed his crop the other side of the hedge from
them...its too much of a coincidence. The wasps then got in and ate the
honey


That sounds like a poisoning to me.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago,

I went to Paultons Park on Monday, all your wasps (plus a billion more) are
down there

On 11/09/2013 19:53, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...

You are probably correct. TNP normally talks rubbish.


--
Peter Crosland

On 11/09/13 22:12, Peter Crosland wrote:
On 11/09/2013 19:53, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...

You are probably correct. TNP normally talks rubbish.


the bee experts say that whole healthy colonies do not all die overnight.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/09/2013 19:53, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around the
guttering ...

You are probably correct. TNP normally talks rubbish.


He's right in this case.
Wasps may attack a hive but the bees outnumber them a hundred to one.
They will easily see the wasps off.
Hornets are too big to get in the entrance.
Diseases take weeks to kill.


Poison is the likely one.

On Thursday, September 12, 2013 7:39:08 AM UTC+1, harry wrote:

Diseases take weeks to kill.
During which time the healthy bees throw the dead and dying bees out of the hive; it's fairly obvious there's something amiss.

Poison is the likely one.

I'd think so too. 100% mortality in a few days isn't natural causes.

On 11/09/13 22:50, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around
the guttering ...

Wasps die in the cold. Bees do not.

bees have cosy little hives all insulated and full of honey to get
through the winter

Of course the farmer only plants rape because it fetches a good price to
make German Biodiesel


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 12/09/2013 00:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/09/13 22:50, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around
the guttering ...

Wasps die in the cold. Bees do not.

bees have cosy little hives all insulated and full of honey to get
through the winter

Of course the farmer only plants rape because it fetches a good price to
make German Biodiesel

And I thought it was favoured because the dayglo flowers made it easier
to check the claimed acreage planted by satellite surveillance. Evil
smelly stuff it is horrible and oily to walk through and full of little
black beetles that land on anything even vaguely yellow coloured.

Sorry to hear about your bees. Why not challenge the farmer directly?
You may be due some compensation if spray drift killed your hive.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 12/09/13 16:06, Martin Brown wrote:
On 12/09/2013 00:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/09/13 22:50, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

It /has/ just turned cold, co-incidence? I've seen very little of my
wasps from a few weeks ago, just the odd straggler hovering around
the guttering ...

Wasps die in the cold. Bees do not.

bees have cosy little hives all insulated and full of honey to get
through the winter

Of course the farmer only plants rape because it fetches a good price to
make German Biodiesel

And I thought it was favoured because the dayglo flowers made it
easier to check the claimed acreage planted by satellite surveillance.
Evil smelly stuff it is horrible and oily to walk through and full of
little black beetles that land on anything even vaguely yellow coloured.

Sorry to hear about your bees. Why not challenge the farmer directly?
You may be due some compensation if spray drift killed your hive.

No: bad relations with neighbours are not worth 50,000 bees.

The bees are on their way to DEFRA and if he asks its all innocence 'oh
they all just died last week: we have sent them off for analysis' and
let him sweat. If DEFRA choose to take the matter up, that's of course
is something us poor ignorant beekeepers could not possibly have foreseen...


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:27:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Donno what would have been sprayed but report it to the animal health
bit of Defra.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:27:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?

No need to guess

You need to inform the local bee inspector and get a sample of at least 200 bees
before they decay

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/bee...m?sectionid=33


--

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?

Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.

Your local Bee liaison contact should have been informed in advance of
insecticide spraying so that Bee keepers could close up their hives.
This may only work where the crop to be sprayed is at the flowering
stage and attractive to Bees.

Cypermethrin based chemicals are (I think) contact acting and normally
adhere to the plant leaves.



--
Tim Lamb

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 22:37:41 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?

Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.

The neonics ban doesn't come in to effect until 1st December and in any case as
you say its use on OSR was primarily a seed coating not a spray.

Your local Bee liaison contact should have been informed in advance of
insecticide spraying so that Bee keepers could close up their hives.
This may only work where the crop to be sprayed is at the flowering
stage and attractive to Bees.

Spray liaison is very hit and miss across the country. Many areas are not
covered at all yet compared to a few years ago the incidence of 'mass poisoning'
is currently minimal.

Bees foraging on OSR makes no sense at this time of year, maybe there is some
guttation water but their nectar stores require the removal of water not
diluting and there is certainly no pollen or nectar from the OSR until well into
next year.
--

On 11/09/13 22:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only
the farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?

Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.

Your local Bee liaison contact should have been informed in advance of
insecticide spraying so that Bee keepers could close up their hives.
This may only work where the crop to be sprayed is at the flowering
stage and attractive to Bees.

Cypermethrin based chemicals are (I think) contact acting and normally
adhere to the plant leaves.



we could smell the spary for 300 yards around the field edge. The bees
are 6ft from the field edge
it wasn't done at dusk and it wasn't done in conditions of low wind either.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/13 22:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?

Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.

Your local Bee liaison contact should have been informed in advance of
insecticide spraying so that Bee keepers could close up their hives. This
may only work where the crop to be sprayed is at the flowering stage and
attractive to Bees.

Cypermethrin based chemicals are (I think) contact acting and normally
adhere to the plant leaves.



we could smell the spary for 300 yards around the field edge. The bees are
6ft from the field edge
it wasn't done at dusk and it wasn't done in conditions of low wind
either.


Sounds tome like that ******* farmer needs taking to task.
These sprays are not good for you either.

On 12/09/13 07:43, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/13 22:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?
Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.

Your local Bee liaison contact should have been informed in advance of
insecticide spraying so that Bee keepers could close up their hives. This
may only work where the crop to be sprayed is at the flowering stage and
attractive to Bees.

Cypermethrin based chemicals are (I think) contact acting and normally
adhere to the plant leaves.

we could smell the spary for 300 yards around the field edge. The bees are
6ft from the field edge
it wasn't done at dusk and it wasn't done in conditions of low wind
either.

Sounds tome like that ******* farmer needs taking to task.
These sprays are not good for you either.


cyhalothrin is not particularly noxious to humans

But it is massively toxic to bees.

I will be taking it further, but I just wanted to ID what spray might
have been in use



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 09:00:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 12/09/13 07:43, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/13 22:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?
Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.

Your local Bee liaison contact should have been informed in advance of
insecticide spraying so that Bee keepers could close up their hives. This
may only work where the crop to be sprayed is at the flowering stage and
attractive to Bees.

Cypermethrin based chemicals are (I think) contact acting and normally
adhere to the plant leaves.

we could smell the spary for 300 yards around the field edge. The bees are
6ft from the field edge
it wasn't done at dusk and it wasn't done in conditions of low wind
either.

Sounds tome like that ******* farmer needs taking to task.
These sprays are not good for you either.


cyhalothrin is not particularly noxious to humans

But it is massively toxic to bees.

I will be taking it further, but I just wanted to ID what spray might
have been in use

You don't need to make any attempt to identify it. DEFRA will. It costs you
nothing, they will do the job properly and with no guessing.

--

On 11/09/2013 22:37, Tim Lamb wrote:

Don't know. The EU has just banned the use of nicotinoids for OSR seed
dressing so it is likely something else will be used.


The ban doesn't come into effect until December so maybe the farmer is
trying to use up existing stock - even though the spraying conditions
aren't suitable.

We lost one hive a few years ago because (as it turned out) they got
their water from a neighbour's bird-bath; he'd been spraying a wasp-nest
nearby and poisoned the water.
Two other hives right next to it were fine - they must have got their
water from somewhere else.

The NBU labs were very helpful in analysing a sample of dead bees and
identifying the specific poison.

My missus was the spray coordinator for our area for several years. In
spite of contacting the NFU and local farmers we never received a single
call warning about spraying.

--
Reentrant

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
What is the standard autumn spray for emerging oil seed rape? only the
farmer here was spraying 4 days ago and all the bees just died.

Would it be cyhalothrin?

A real arable farmer was here earlier today retrieving his post banger
so I asked the question.

He said that for OSR 3 weeks after emerging, the seed dressing would be
losing effectiveness and a cypermethrin variant might be used to kill
Flea Beetle.

Records of product used, time of spraying, temp and wind conditions are
all conditions of crop accreditation schemes. Spraying in unsuitable
weather conditions may breach cross compliance rules and put CAP
payments at risk.



--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:45:08 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Records of product used, time of spraying, temp and wind conditions are
all conditions of crop accreditation schemes. Spraying in unsuitable
weather conditions may breach cross compliance rules and put CAP
payments at risk.

cynic="on"

Like having the paperwork say "beef"...

cynic="off"

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:45:08 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Records of product used, time of spraying, temp and wind conditions are
all conditions of crop accreditation schemes. Spraying in unsuitable
weather conditions may breach cross compliance rules and put CAP
payments at risk.

cynic="on"

Like having the paperwork say "beef"...

cynic="off"

I don't think anyone has yet blamed the farmers, they don't sell horses.

TNP's potential complaint is just the sort of thing that leads to an
investigation of paperwork and fines. There is no appeal against a
decision by DEFRA to dock CAP payments.




--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:13:57 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Records of product used, time of spraying, temp and wind
conditions
are all conditions of crop accreditation schemes. Spraying in
unsuitable weather conditions may breach cross compliance rules
and
put CAP payments at risk.

cynic="on"

Like having the paperwork say "beef"...

cynic="off"

I don't think anyone has yet blamed the farmers, they don't sell horses.

Some do but true enough, even the dumbest of abattoir worker probably
knows the difference between a horse or beef carcase but once it's
just steaks...

TNP's potential complaint is just the sort of thing that leads to an
investigation of paperwork and fines.

It's the bureaucrat sitting in a cosy office who will look at the
paperwork and see that it was a still day with the right conditions
on the signed form from the farmer. End of complaint. I'd be very
surprised if they bothered to look up weather conditions for that
locality at that time(*), after all the farmer isn't going to put
false data on the forms as:

There is no appeal against a decision by DEFRA to dock CAP payments.

But realistically, what real checking goes on? Maybe a few random
spot checks but otherwise out with the stamp, pass it on...

(*) Occasionally I get people in the locality here asking for wind or
rain data for a given date as their insurance company are saying it
wasn't windy or rainy. Insurance co has looked at the weather data
for the nearest easyily available weather station data, Carlisle
Airport, 25 to 30 miles away and at sea level not 1000'. It's a
different world up here...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Sure is ...

I have a very real problem predicting weather up here, in Scotland.
Most days I look out of the window, and see some rain on the hills
opposite. Used to thinking in terms of more southerly weather, I
think: ":-( It'll be raining here in an hour, can't mow the lawn
then!", but what actually happens is very difficult to predict.
Sometimes the rain is lashing on the windows within ten minutes, other
days it gets 'stuck' on the hills for several hours, and I could have
mowed the lawn after all - the former happened yesterday, the latter
today!

As for hanging clothes out, I hardly ever dare. It looked settled
sunny a week or so ago, so I hung my t-shirts outside, with three
clips on each hanger in an attempt to keep it on the line in the brisk
breeze, even so, some were soon off again. Within an hour, it had
began to rain and I was dashing about getting them in again, wetter
than when they went out. Fortunately, the house's old porch is large
and has lots of windows like a greenhouse, so it makes an excellent
drying room. I've seen neighbours' clothing hung outside in all
weathers for days at a time.

Talking of neighbours, I've been discovering that one of my more
distant ones is rather a 'wide' character. "Pleasant enough chap!",
another neighbour said, "Don't buy a car from him, though!". I
laughed, because I knew he'd been done for receiving stolen vehicles
about a decade or so ago.

Allegedly the 'wide' neighbour has had serious trouble with another of
his neighbours, and been assaulted by him.

A while back, the 'wide' guy was stopped by the police for 'Drunk In
Charge ...' but it was only one officer, so, I suppose, he waited for
him to get out of the car, and approach, and then took off. He got
home and into his house before he could be caught, and of course
they'd've needed a warrant to forcibly enter the house, so he got away
with it.

Then, a shorter while ago, he was driving home at night, and a car
pulled out behind him. As he claimed, thinking it was this neighbour
out to get him, he took off again. However, it was the police again,
probably out to even the score - he didn't get away with it that
time!

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:49:56 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

nearest easyily available weather station data, Carlisle
Airport, 25 to 30 miles away and at sea level not 1000'. It's a
different world up here...
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In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:13:57 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Snip
TNP's potential complaint is just the sort of thing that leads to an
investigation of paperwork and fines.

It's the bureaucrat sitting in a cosy office who will look at the
paperwork and see that it was a still day with the right conditions
on the signed form from the farmer. End of complaint. I'd be very
surprised if they bothered to look up weather conditions for that
locality at that time(*), after all the farmer isn't going to put
false data on the forms as:

Defra do inspect. I don't know the frequency and have never had one but
there is often a posting on the farming forums of the dreaded
inspection.

The accredited crops assessment is annual so predictable. They are
thorough! As you say, judicious recording of weather data is likely.

There is no appeal against a decision by DEFRA to dock CAP payments.

But realistically, what real checking goes on? Maybe a few random
spot checks but otherwise out with the stamp, pass it on...

Nobody knows. Bees are a hot topic currently so, if the chemists concur,
there may well be a follow up. Spraying near housing in windy conditions
is inviting trouble.

(*) Occasionally I get people in the locality here asking for wind or
rain data for a given date as their insurance company are saying it
wasn't windy or rainy. Insurance co has looked at the weather data
for the nearest easyily available weather station data, Carlisle
Airport, 25 to 30 miles away and at sea level not 1000'. It's a
different world up here...

Can I sell you a windmill?


--
Tim Lamb