My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation -
something to with rubble filling and/or not enough of a cavity. I'm not sure
exactly.

However, with huge bills, I have to find a solution.

I am thinking perhaps internal insulation - wall coverings.

I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft around the
windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old wooden window frames.
Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting insulating expanding foam to seal up
and gaps and then fill the holes.

The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.
Thinking I should fit insulation under the board between the joists from the
cellar ceiling and cover off with plaster board. But I've been warned that the
wood needs ventilation to ward off rot.

Does faulty pointing around the external walls affect heat loss by increasing
drafts? There are patches that could do with being repaired.

I have thought of temporary measures like stacking bails of hay around the the
outside walls during the winter months, but I reckon the neighbours, council and
the wife wont like this.

What else? There don't seem to be many retrofitting ideas about.

"S R" wrote in message
...
My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation -
something to with rubble filling and/or not enough of a cavity. I'm not
sure exactly.

However, with huge bills, I have to find a solution.

I am thinking perhaps internal insulation - wall coverings.

I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft
around the windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old wooden
window frames. Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting insulating
expanding foam to seal up and gaps and then fill the holes.

The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.
Thinking I should fit insulation under the board between the joists from
the cellar ceiling and cover off with plaster board. But I've been warned
that the wood needs ventilation to ward off rot.

Does faulty pointing around the external walls affect heat loss by
increasing drafts? There are patches that could do with being repaired.

I have thought of temporary measures like stacking bails of hay around the
the outside walls during the winter months, but I reckon the neighbours,
council and the wife wont like this.

What else? There don't seem to be many retrofitting ideas about.

You can insulate the whole house internally or externally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_wall_insulation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_heat#Insulation


You have to fix all draughts, whatever it takes.
If you have fuel bue-rning applicances, you have to pay heed to the
ventilation requirements.

On 09/09/2013 01:27, S R wrote:
My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation -
something to with rubble filling and/or not enough of a cavity. I'm not
sure exactly.

However, with huge bills, I have to find a solution.

I am thinking perhaps internal insulation - wall coverings.

I suggest you start by getting the application data sheets from Celotex.
They cover a whole range of different ways to insulate, including
internal and external cladding of solid walls:

http://www.celotex.co.uk/

I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft
around the windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old
wooden window frames. Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting
insulating expanding foam to seal up and gaps and then fill the holes.

If they are the original frames, check that they are not rotten. If they
are, they really need to be replaced. If they are sound all it might
need is some frame sealant around the outside. The double glazing firm
should have ensured they were draught proof when they installed the
windows though.

The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the
cellar. Thinking I should fit insulation under the board between the
joists from the cellar ceiling and cover off with plaster board. But
I've been warned that the wood needs ventilation to ward off rot.

Again, see the Celtox data sheets.

Does faulty pointing around the external walls affect heat loss by
increasing drafts? There are patches that could do with being repaired...

Not normally, but you should re-point anyway as faulty pointing can lead
to penetrating damp.

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 07:46:45 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Does faulty pointing around the external walls affect heat loss by
increasing drafts? There are patches that could do with being
repaired...

Not normally, but you should re-point anyway as faulty pointing can lead
to penetrating damp.

Or damp walls that will soak up heat to evaporate the water. Draughts
might be a problem depending on how solid or not the rubble in fill
is. Our "solid" walls do allow air to "circulate" through them, but
some might have been standing for 250+ years and the lime mortar is
little more than sand...

Cladding the inside of all external walls will be very disruptive but
give the best returns. If you can afford to lose 3 to 4" off the
rooms then 50 mm of rigid foam insulation bonded to plasterboard will
almost bring the place up to recent insulation levels. Even 25 mm of
insulation will make a noticeable difference.

Insulating and draught proofing the floors over the cellar might be a
better place to start. Various threads in here about that in the
past.

Double glazed windows/frames shouldn't be draughty. Draughts are bad
but you don't want to hermetically seal the place up, it's an old
building it and you! need to be able to breath.

--
Cheers
Dave.

S R wrote:
The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.

Fit some decent carpets.

JGH

On 09/09/13 09:25, wrote:
S R wrote:
The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.
Fit some decent carpets.
Doesn't work. BTDTGTTS

Optimal solution is to go into cellar and fit celotex underneath the
boarding. and fully seal.

next most effective is to lift carpet, tack down hardbaord over floor
boards and seal with flexible mastic to skirting, then laygood carpet +
underlay.


JGH


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Monday, September 9, 2013 1:27:45 AM UTC+1, S R wrote:
My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation -
something to with rubble filling and/or not enough of a cavity. I'm not sure
exactly.
However, with huge bills, I have to find a solution.
I am thinking perhaps internal insulation - wall coverings.
I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft around the
windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old wooden window frames.
Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting insulating expanding foam to seal up
and gaps and then fill the holes.
The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.
Thinking I should fit insulation under the board between the joists from the
cellar ceiling and cover off with plaster board. But I've been warned that the
wood needs ventilation to ward off rot.
Does faulty pointing around the external walls affect heat loss by increasing
drafts? There are patches that could do with being repaired.
I have thought of temporary measures like stacking bails of hay around the the
outside walls during the winter months, but I reckon the neighbours, council and
the wife wont like this.
What else? There don't seem to be many retrofitting ideas about.

Internal insulation loses the heat storage effect of the walls, which is of some value in regulating temperature. External is better in this respect, but brings its own issues.

Don't use polystyrene indoors, its a disaster in a fire. Use PIR.


NT

On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 02:38:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Don't use polystyrene indoors, its a disaster in a fire. Use PIR.

It could be beneficial in some circumstances, burn the place down, get it
rebuilt to the latest standards.

--

On Monday, 9 September 2013 01:27:45 UTC+1, S R wrote:
My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation -

something to with rubble filling and/or not enough of a cavity. I'm not sure

exactly.



However, with huge bills, I have to find a solution.



I am thinking perhaps internal insulation - wall coverings.



I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft around the

windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old wooden window frames.

Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting insulating expanding foam to seal up

and gaps and then fill the holes.



The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.

Thinking I should fit insulation under the board between the joists from the

cellar ceiling and cover off with plaster board. But I've been warned that the

wood needs ventilation to ward off rot.



Does faulty pointing around the external walls affect heat loss by increasing

drafts? There are patches that could do with being repaired.



I have thought of temporary measures like stacking bails of hay around the the

outside walls during the winter months, but I reckon the neighbours, council and

the wife wont like this.



What else? There don't seem to be many retrofitting ideas about.

As others have said - rigid foam insulation panels on the interior-side of the exterior walls - Celotex/Kingspan. Check the company websites for the manufacturer guidance on best practice.

I did my chapel conversion, lining all the exterior-facing walls - and it totally transformed the place in terms of warmth and economy.

I already had well-fitted timber-framed double glazing, most air-leaks reasonably sealed, and 250mm loft insulation - but it was the heat-loss through solid masonry walls that was the dominant factor.

However I've never insulated under the original ground floor square-edged board, suspended timber floor (access is too difficult) - and that doesn't seem to be a significant heat-loss.

Either line with plasterboard-faced celotex (minimum loss of space), or fit celotex, studwork and plasterboard (provides cable and pipe routing void).

I did the latter as I need to fully rewire and plumb.

On Monday, September 9, 2013 1:27:45 AM UTC+1, S R wrote:
My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation -

something to with rubble filling and/or not enough of a cavity. I'm not sure

exactly.



However, with huge bills, I have to find a solution.



I am thinking perhaps internal insulation - wall coverings.



I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft around the
windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old wooden window frames.


The ground floor floor boards leak heat and let in drafts from the cellar.

In my view:

Fixing the drafts should be the first priority. Only when that is done start thinking about other insulation.

If you have any open fires or heaters that use air drawn from the room you will need to be careful not to cut off the incoming air too much.

When insulating I'd first check the loft insulation and also add insulation under the ground floor. Only when they are done woudl I start looking at insulating walls.


Robert

I would endorse the idea of insulating under the floor, especially is you have the highly "efficient" underfloor ventilation that I have. I did the floor of a victorian terrace last year, and it was well worth the effort. The combination of gappy floorboards, open chimneys and sash windows created an ambiance that could best be described as "bracing". After a fairly unpleasant few days under the floor the room went from being barely habitable for three months of the year, even with the heating on, to being positively cosy.

I got some excellent advice from this group:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/2ZpVZHVDxyYJ

On 10/09/2013 19:44, Martin Pentreath wrote:
I would endorse the idea of insulating under the floor, especially is you have the highly "efficient" underfloor ventilation that I have. I did the floor of a victorian terrace last year, and it was well worth the effort. The combination of gappy floorboards, open chimneys and sash windows created an ambiance that could best be described as "bracing". After a fairly unpleasant few days under the floor the room went from being barely habitable for three months of the year, even with the heating on, to being positively cosy.

I got some excellent advice from this group:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/2ZpVZHVDxyYJ


Yes, good thread that. A couple of things I picked up:

Plastic sheeting to the ground beneath the floor might be a plan;

Lots of discussion about 'the tiniest gap in underfloor insulation will
ruin everything' - makes no sense to me. Gaps would certainly lessen the
effect, in much the same way as undoing a button on a shirt. But negate,
no. Sealing drafts 'on top', with caulking round skirting, board or
sheeting over joists, and decent carpet/underlay seems far more important.

In my case it'd be a *lot* easier to use sheet materials under and
across at right angles to the joists, fixed somehow and sealed with tape
at the joins. Can't quite figure out whether there'd be a damp problem
with that method though.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 10/09/13 20:25, RJH wrote:
On 10/09/2013 19:44, Martin Pentreath wrote:
I would endorse the idea of insulating under the floor, especially is
you have the highly "efficient" underfloor ventilation that I have. I
did the floor of a victorian terrace last year, and it was well worth
the effort. The combination of gappy floorboards, open chimneys and
sash windows created an ambiance that could best be described as
"bracing". After a fairly unpleasant few days under the floor the
room went from being barely habitable for three months of the year,
even with the heating on, to being positively cosy.

I got some excellent advice from this group:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/2ZpVZHVDxyYJ


Yes, good thread that. A couple of things I picked up:

Plastic sheeting to the ground beneath the floor might be a plan;

Lots of discussion about 'the tiniest gap in underfloor insulation
will ruin everything' - makes no sense to me.

personal experience and even crude calculations shows that this is
almost correct.

If it leaves a draught.


Gaps would certainly lessen the effect, in much the same way as
undoing a button on a shirt. But negate, no. Sealing drafts 'on top',
with caulking round skirting, board or sheeting over joists, and
decent carpet/underlay seems far more important.

In my case it'd be a *lot* easier to use sheet materials under and
across at right angles to the joists, fixed somehow and sealed with
tape at the joins. Can't quite figure out whether there'd be a damp
problem with that method though.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 10/09/2013 21:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/09/13 20:25, RJH wrote:
On 10/09/2013 19:44, Martin Pentreath wrote:
I would endorse the idea of insulating under the floor, especially is
you have the highly "efficient" underfloor ventilation that I have. I
did the floor of a victorian terrace last year, and it was well worth
the effort. The combination of gappy floorboards, open chimneys and
sash windows created an ambiance that could best be described as
"bracing". After a fairly unpleasant few days under the floor the
room went from being barely habitable for three months of the year,
even with the heating on, to being positively cosy.

I got some excellent advice from this group:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/2ZpVZHVDxyYJ


Yes, good thread that. A couple of things I picked up:

Plastic sheeting to the ground beneath the floor might be a plan;

Lots of discussion about 'the tiniest gap in underfloor insulation
will ruin everything' - makes no sense to me.

personal experience and even crude calculations shows that this is
almost correct.

If it leaves a draught.


Well. Personal experience is worth knowing. But context is all.

On to the more empirical. Which calculations? And what does 'leave a
draught' mean? A draught involves passage of air. How does a cul de sac
gap lead to passage of air? I readily accept cold spots (and attendant
problems). But to the extent of 'almost negate'. Just don't get it.

I accept that you have a point. But I think you're overstating it to a
ridiculous extent.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Monday, September 9, 2013 1:27:45 AM UTC+1, S R wrote:
My Victorian semi (c 1873) is not suitable for cavity wall insulation

The comments about internally insulating exterior walls losing thermal mass is not correct - you retain the thermal mass of the INTERNAL walls (which is large).

To meet current BR you would need to put something like 65mm celotex on the inside of your walls, this can cause a problem in north facing heavy wind driven locations with joints embedded in the wall - the dew point can move so far into the wall the joists rot off. Thus far it is only the highest grade exposure sites which have thrown this up (West Coast of Ireland with horizontal coastal wind & rain). However there is a time issue.

If you can insulate 40mm Extruded Polystyrene on all external walls, the difference will be simply night & day. I would aim for 40mm Celotex or 50mm Extruded Polystyrene, start with the main living area, then the bedroom, then the hall. Roof, well if the roof leaks 1% moisture in rockwool = 0% insulation value pretty much, so tackle any roof leaks and ensure that is both insulated AND adequately ventilated.

On 09/09/13 01:27, S R wrote:
xxxx

I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft
around the windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old
wooden window frames. Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting
insulating expanding foam to seal up and gaps and then fill the holes.

Dont use normal foam which expands 10 times and may damage your windows,
pinkgrip is better as it only expands about once.

Get an infrared heat gun from maplins- it points a red light on your
wall and tells you the temperature, so on a cold day you can see where
the heat is escaping and wheres the most important place to insulate.

good book is the canadian
http://www.amazon.com/Insulate-Weath.../dp/1561585548


[george]

On 10/09/2013 22:10, george - dicegeorge wrote:
On 09/09/13 01:27, S R wrote:
xxxx

I have modern double glazing, yet there is still a discernible draft
around the windows, which is probably caused by the wrap-around old
wooden window frames. Thinking maybe drilling holes and injecting
insulating expanding foam to seal up and gaps and then fill the holes.

Dont use normal foam which expands 10 times and may damage your windows,
pinkgrip is better as it only expands about once.


Expanding foam is fine, except in application and removal ;-)

Get an infrared heat gun from maplins- it points a red light on your
wall and tells you the temperature, so on a cold day you can see where
the heat is escaping and wheres the most important place to insulate.


Yep, agreed. Cheap and easy.

--
Cheers, Rob