Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K

On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:00:32 AM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).



Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?



Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!



TIA



Jim K

Biscuits Needs machine

Dowels Need jig at least

Domino dowels Needs overdraft

On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

Depends on what strength you need, and what tools you have at your
disposal.

Biscuits are quick and easy, give easy alignment etc, but don't add a
huge amount of strength.

For big sections, a simple rabbet in the edge of one of the pieces:


##########
_____##########
###############

Means that the perpendicular board now locates on two surfaces, the
rabbet helps keep it square, and gives double the glue area. Also you
can now drive pins into the joint from both sides of the corner through
one panel and into the "end grain" of the other.

You can cut the rabbets very quickly on a table saw, or with a router.

I made up some filing cabinet style drawers like this - 1/2" ply sides,
and 3/4" ply back with a 1/2" square rabbet out of the corners:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/4...erAssembly.jpg


Another very handy technique for 3/4" board is a mitre lock bit on a
router in a table. Like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POvBhQo2ivQ

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On 04/08/13 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K
Glue - white PVA - and panel pins. TBH if you clamp/strap the thing,
while the glue sets, you don't need the pins.


As long as you have a structure where the joint is notexposed to
bending stresses, this is as good as it gets.

Used to build ply and chip loudspeaker cabs like this. In hundreds.

the joint has excellent tensile properties, but will still fail if you
use the leverage of the thing to BEND the join.

Dovetailing and glue is rock solid, but the appearance is less good

plain glueing is stronger than flatpack stuff by a considerable margin.

Glue joints usually fail because of warping, but with ply and MDF there
isn't much.

Oh on MDF which is loaded with resins, a resin glue may be better.,

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the
options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K

Dependent on the finish you require and thickness of material (3/4" [18mm]
minimum) , countersunk screws with wooden (ply) pellets glued into the
countersing to hide them. If you wish to obtain a possible feature using
pellets, you could use lighter or darker (real) wood for the pellets.

I use that system often when making garden furniture or internal shelving
rather that using stopped housings and dovetails - when the use of hidden
joints and fixings is not really that important.


Cash

On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K


Might be useful to know what kind of furniture you're thinking of

stuart noble wrote:
On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options
for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K


Might be useful to know what kind of furniture you're thinking of

MRMDF - usually pale green is much nicer to use and delaminates less.
The outer surfaces seem to have a better seal on them and take a paint
finish much better.
It does cost more but not a lot 25% say?

There are some special screws and matching drill bits for screwing into
the edge of MDF - sorry can't remember the make.
Whatever you do, don't screw into the edge with out drilling a pilot
hole first.
Watch out for turbo gold type screws too. The rifling in the threads
tears MDF to dust and has very little strength - useless if you have to
take a screw out and re-fit for any reason.

On 04/08/2013 17:32, Bob Minchin wrote:
stuart noble wrote:
On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options
for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K


Might be useful to know what kind of furniture you're thinking of

MRMDF - usually pale green is much nicer to use and delaminates less.
The outer surfaces seem to have a better seal on them and take a paint
finish much better.
It does cost more but not a lot 25% say?

There are some special screws and matching drill bits for screwing into
the edge of MDF - sorry can't remember the make.
Whatever you do, don't screw into the edge with out drilling a pilot
hole first.
Watch out for turbo gold type screws too. The rifling in the threads
tears MDF to dust and has very little strength - useless if you have to
take a screw out and re-fit for any reason.

I suspect you might have meant confirmat screws.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/confirmat-...k-of-100/36633

I have used them myself to build a couple of melamine-faced board
cupboards. Easy enough to use if you can ensure you drill holes nice and
square - and the right diameter.

--
Rod

polygonum wrote:
On 04/08/2013 17:32, Bob Minchin wrote:
stuart noble wrote:
On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options
for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K


Might be useful to know what kind of furniture you're thinking of

MRMDF - usually pale green is much nicer to use and delaminates less.
The outer surfaces seem to have a better seal on them and take a paint
finish much better.
It does cost more but not a lot 25% say?

There are some special screws and matching drill bits for screwing into
the edge of MDF - sorry can't remember the make.
Whatever you do, don't screw into the edge with out drilling a pilot
hole first.
Watch out for turbo gold type screws too. The rifling in the threads
tears MDF to dust and has very little strength - useless if you have to
take a screw out and re-fit for any reason.

I suspect you might have meant confirmat screws.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/confirmat-...k-of-100/36633

I have used them myself to build a couple of melamine-faced board
cupboards. Easy enough to use if you can ensure you drill holes nice and
square - and the right diameter.

Yes those are the ones. Certainly drilling square and exactly in the
right place is essential to decent results with any screws.
Biscuits are useful to hold alignment in one axis but add no strength

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for
jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Dowels. Depending on how thick the ply is. Or screws and glue depending on
how strong it has to be.
It will never look professional with ply unless you glue on edging strips.

fred wrote:
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:00:32 AM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).



Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?



Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!



TIA



Jim K

Biscuits Needs machine

Dowels Need jig at least

Domino dowels Needs overdraft



You can use these things without a jig at a pinch.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dowel-Cen...item2a2a5cf157

On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K

glued in dowels, or rout a rabbit in one to take the other

On 05/08/13 08:58, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the
options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K

glued in dowels, or rout a rabbit in one to take the other
I've got a dog that routs rabbits.

You can borrow him if you want.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 04/08/2013 13:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/08/13 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the options
for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K
Glue - white PVA - and panel pins. TBH if you clamp/strap the thing,
while the glue sets, you don't need the pins.


As long as you have a structure where the joint is notexposed to
bending stresses, this is as good as it gets.

Used to build ply and chip loudspeaker cabs like this. In hundreds.


Using mitred joints, bracing and inside edge/corner reinforcement? Don't
see it being that strong otherwise.

--
Cheers, Rob

€œPessimism of the spirit; optimism of the will€� Antonio Gramsci

On 05/08/2013 09:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/08/13 08:58, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 04/08/2013 10:00, Jim K wrote:
Looking to make some furniture using ply or mdf - what are the
options for jointing them (at 90 degrees).

Prefer not to use "flat pack" type cams etc and don't want agro of
dovetails etc so what's left?

Neat inconspicuous "professional" looking preferred!

TIA

Jim K

glued in dowels, or rout a rabbit in one to take the other
I've got a dog that routs rabbits.

You can borrow him if you want.


Probably illegal to rout a rabbit in some parts .... and maybe mandatory
in public schools

On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:04:29 PM UTC+12, fred wrote:

Biscuits Needs machine

Biscuit cutters are very cheap these days. And they can be used for all kinds of other jobs, e.g. cutting out floorboards, cutting slots, trimming the bottom off doors in place etc. For those who don't have one, a biscuit cutter is like a tiny circular saw with guards around it.

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 12:30:33 PM UTC+1, Matty F wrote:
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:04:29 PM UTC+12, fred wrote:



Biscuits Needs machine



Biscuit cutters are very cheap these days. And they can be used for all kinds of other jobs, e.g. cutting out floorboards, cutting slots, trimming the bottom off doors in place etc. For those who don't have one, a biscuit cutter is like a tiny circular saw with guards around it.

mmm I've got router bit for these - used a few times bit awkward - is it justified to buy a dedicated machine?

Cheers
Jim K

On 08/08/2013 14:03, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 12:30:33 PM UTC+1, Matty F wrote:
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:04:29 PM UTC+12, fred wrote:



Biscuits Needs machine



Biscuit cutters are very cheap these days. And they can be used for all kinds of other jobs, e.g. cutting out floorboards, cutting slots, trimming the bottom off doors in place etc. For those who don't have one, a biscuit cutter is like a tiny circular saw with guards around it.

mmm I've got router bit for these - used a few times bit awkward - is it justified to buy a dedicated machine?

Cheers
Jim K

This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine

But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with
a dedicated machine.

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:18:19 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:
On 08/08/2013 14:03, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 12:30:33 PM UTC+1, Matty F wrote:

On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:04:29 PM UTC+12, fred wrote:







Biscuits Needs machine







Biscuit cutters are very cheap these days. And they can be used for all kinds of other jobs, e.g. cutting out floorboards, cutting slots, trimming the bottom off doors in place etc. For those who don't have one, a biscuit cutter is like a tiny circular saw with guards around it.



mmm I've got router bit for these - used a few times bit awkward - is it justified to buy a dedicated machine?



Cheers

Jim K



This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine



But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with

a dedicated machine.

mmm Draper or Ferm for £45 odd eeny meeny miny mo....

or what else & why?

Cheers

Jim K

On 08/08/2013 14:29, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:18:19 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:


This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine



But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with

a dedicated machine.

mmm Draper or Ferm for £45 odd eeny meeny miny mo....

or what else & why?

Well, out of those two the Ferm generally gets good recommendations in
the Woodworking fora.

On 08/08/2013 14:03, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 12:30:33 PM UTC+1, Matty F wrote:
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:04:29 PM UTC+12, fred wrote:



Biscuits Needs machine



Biscuit cutters are very cheap these days. And they can be used for all kinds of other jobs, e.g. cutting out floorboards, cutting slots, trimming the bottom off doors in place etc. For those who don't have one, a biscuit cutter is like a tiny circular saw with guards around it.

mmm I've got router bit for these - used a few times bit awkward - is it justified to buy a dedicated machine?

Yes. I have tried using the router version, and you lose most of the
benefit of the proper machine (i.e. speed and ease of use). The action
with a router is non intuitive (needing to "plunge sideways"), too easy
to cause unwanted damage, and the cutter is not big enough to make the
slot in one hit. The dedicated machine definitely wins in this case.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/08/2013 15:21, Andrew May wrote:
On 08/08/2013 14:29, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:18:19 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:


This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine



But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with

a dedicated machine.

mmm Draper or Ferm for £45 odd eeny meeny miny mo....

or what else & why?

Well, out of those two the Ferm generally gets good recommendations in
the Woodworking fora.

I have the Ferm, and its good enough to be usable just - with a few
caveats[1]. Each time I use it, I can't help feeling I should have got
something a little bit better...

in fact, want to buy a Ferm in good condition? ;-)


[1] The first one I had was not capable of cutting a slot parallel with
the base. Returned to SF for exchange. The replacement is better - but
its still easy to get the fence set out of square - it tends to pull out
of alignment as you tighten it. Hence you need to take care to hold it
in place when locking its position. It plunges ok, anc cuts good slots.
The dust collection is poor using its bag (it just tends to clog up
inside), but is ok if you hook up a vacuum.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 5:01:33 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/08/2013 15:21, Andrew May wrote:

On 08/08/2013 14:29, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:18:19 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:





This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine







But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with



a dedicated machine.



mmm Draper or Ferm for £45 odd eeny meeny miny mo....



or what else & why?



Well, out of those two the Ferm generally gets good recommendations in

the Woodworking fora.



I have the Ferm, and its good enough to be usable just - with a few

caveats[1]. Each time I use it, I can't help feeling I should have got

something a little bit better...



in fact, want to buy a Ferm in good condition? ;-)



quote me happy? ;)

Jim K

On 08/08/2013 18:34, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 5:01:33 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/08/2013 15:21, Andrew May wrote:

On 08/08/2013 14:29, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:18:19 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:





This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine







But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with



a dedicated machine.



mmm Draper or Ferm for £45 odd eeny meeny miny mo....



or what else & why?



Well, out of those two the Ferm generally gets good recommendations in

the Woodworking fora.



I have the Ferm, and its good enough to be usable just - with a few

caveats[1]. Each time I use it, I can't help feeling I should have got

something a little bit better...



in fact, want to buy a Ferm in good condition? ;-)



quote me happy? ;)

After that sales pitch?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Yup :-D :-D

Jim K

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 5:01:33 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/08/2013 15:21, Andrew May wrote:

On 08/08/2013 14:29, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 2:18:19 PM UTC+1, Andrew May wrote:





This is uk.d-i-y. It is always justified to buy a new machine







But seriously. I have both and use both. Much easier to do biscuits with



a dedicated machine.



mmm Draper or Ferm for £45 odd eeny meeny miny mo....



or what else & why?



Well, out of those two the Ferm generally gets good recommendations in

the Woodworking fora.



I have the Ferm, and its good enough to be usable just - with a few

caveats[1]. Each time I use it, I can't help feeling I should have got

something a little bit better...



in fact, want to buy a Ferm in good condition? ;-)





[1] The first one I had was not capable of cutting a slot parallel with

the base. Returned to SF for exchange. The replacement is better - but

its still easy to get the fence set out of square - it tends to pull out

of alignment as you tighten it. Hence you need to take care to hold it

in place when locking its position. It plunges ok, anc cuts good slots.

The dust collection is poor using its bag (it just tends to clog up

inside), but is ok if you hook up a vacuum.





--

Cheers,



John.

having goggled a big more the cheapest is surprisingly at Wickes:-

http://www.wickes.co.uk/860w-biscuit...?source=123_74

has anyone used one? or recognise it as a rebadge of something er suboptimal?

Cheers
Jim K

On Friday, August 9, 2013 8:51:02 AM UTC+12, Jim K wrote:
Yup :-D :-D



Jim K

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