Timothy Murphy wrote:

I've forgotten the details of how this was supposed to work,
but I'm sure it would have been plausible.
I wonder if anyone has come across this idea,
and knows how it works or is supposed to work?

I suspect that Hoyle was attempting to force his students to think, rather
than spoon-feeding solutions. There's really no absolute need for a big
starter motor or huge current to start a car. A spark can be generated from
a torch battery and the car carries fuel.

As others have pointed out you can start engines without any battery using
a magneto and pull start or starter handle. In the past huge aircraft
engines were started with explosive starter cartridges.

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in a
similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the valves,
fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the engine
moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other cylinders start
to fire.

No idea if this was what Hoyle had in mind.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in
a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use a starting handle? It was a feature of
some old Rolls Royce that you could start them by waggling the ignition
advance/retard lever to force it to spark. But they were a low compression
unit with a heavy flywheel. Not every engine could be persuaded to start
in that way.

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Steve Firth wrote:
It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in a
similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the valves,
fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the engine
moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other cylinders start
to fire.

It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel
Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in the carburettor
You might get away with the contents of the float chamber pulled in by a
suitable through-draught of air (so no need for fuel pump), but if the
engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work, but
not on a mostly-mechanical car.

Theo

In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
t might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

Depends what you mean by older. Lots of British cars used SU pumps. Which
was first seen in the early '30s.

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13 Jul 2013 21:57:15 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car
engine
in a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close
the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to
start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in
the carburettor You might get away with the contents of the float
chamber pulled in by a suitable through-draught of air (so no need for
fuel pump), but if the engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work,
but not on a mostly-mechanical car.

Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn
ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn
handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it
through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the
venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in
a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use a starting handle?

Oh yes, depending on engine capacity and compression of course. But that's
not really the point, is it? It's just a case of "what alternatives to a
starter motor are there?"

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 14/07/2013 00:24, Steve Firth wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in
a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use a starting handle?

Oh yes, depending on engine capacity and compression of course. But that's
not really the point, is it? It's just a case of "what alternatives to a
starter motor are there?"

Engine capacity and compression don't matter as you can use the old aero
engine trick - winding the starter handle to run up a flywheel and then
use the energy stored in that to start the engine.

SteveW

Theo Markettos wrote:

It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

No, many of them had electric pumps, even relatively old cars had
electric pumps.

Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in the carburettor

You think that all of the fuel in the float chamber evaporates
overnight?

If you run the float chamber dry on a car with a carburettor it takes a
lot of cranking to start the engine. What remains in the carburettor
enables a relatively easy start.

You might get away with the contents of the float chamber pulled in by a
suitable through-draught of air (so no need for fuel pump), but if the
engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

Yes, I think you may be thinking along rails.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work, but
not on a mostly-mechanical car.

So you reckon that starter cartridges didn't work them?

Note that I pointed out that you need to get a fuel-air mix into the
cylinder and to close exhaust and inlet valves to get it to work. It's
not beyond the wit of man to do that mechanically or with simple
electrical systems. On a diesel engine (working in the other direction)
there are decompressors to allow easy starting. When the engine starts
to turn over the decrompressor disengages. The same mechanical mechanism
could be used to close the inlet and outlet valves instead of keeping
them open and then revert to cam operation when the engine starts to
turn over. Fuel/air could be injected using a mechanical pump and that
(mechanical) system has been available for a long time.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

Dave Liquorice wrote:
Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn
ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn
handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it
through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the
venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.

But we were talking about an engine that's cold and not turning over. You
either need a starter motor/handle to make it turn over, or ignite some
fuel/air mixture to make it go. But this mixture doesn't just appear in the
cylinders - either you use EFI, or you need the effect of the engine turning
over to draw it in. So I can't see how you can make an unmodified
carburetted engine to fire without it already turning over.

Theo

In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
But we were talking about an engine that's cold and not turning over.
You either need a starter motor/handle to make it turn over, or ignite
some fuel/air mixture to make it go. But this mixture doesn't just
appear in the cylinders - either you use EFI, or you need the effect of
the engine turning over to draw it in. So I can't see how you can make
an unmodified carburetted engine to fire without it already turning over.

As I said, some older Rolls Royce were known for starting without the use
of the starter motor. Think Silver Ghost. Obviously, carburettor.
They had mechanical control over the ignition timing via a lever on the
steering column. Switch on, waggle the lever which caused the points to
open and therefore a spark (coil ignition), and off it went - igniting the
fuel left in the cylinder from last time the engine was run. Even, I'm
told, years later. ;-)

The design of those early engines may have been a deciding factor - long
stroke, low compression, heavy flywheel and 6 cylinders. Doesn't mean the
same trick would work with every engine.

--
*What do you call a dinosaur with an extensive vocabulary? A thesaurus.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
t might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

Depends what you mean by older. Lots of British cars used SU pumps.

SU, did that really mean "Skinners Union" as I was told when a lad?...

Which
was first seen in the early '30s.


--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:36:44 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Depends what you mean by older. Lots of British cars used SU pumps.

SU, did that really mean "Skinners Union" as I was told when a lad?...

Where would we be without Wikipedia, eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetor

In article , Adrian
scribeth thus
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:36:44 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Depends what you mean by older. Lots of British cars used SU pumps.

SU, did that really mean "Skinners Union" as I was told when a lad?...

Where would we be without Wikipedia, eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetor

Yess .. In fact just as I hit the send key;-!...
--
Tony Sayer

Liquorice wrote:
Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle?

Yes, and my thumb still hurts twenty years later....

JGH

In article ,
writes:
Liquorice wrote:
Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle?

Yes, and my thumb still hurts twenty years later....

Ah, you never wrap your thumb around the starting handle - goes over
the same side of the handle as your fingers do...

Yes, Citroens had a wheel-nut spanner which doubled up as a starting
handle well into the 1970s, and I used it to start a couple of dad's
Citroens several times.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 14/07/2013 15:41, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:36:44 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Depends what you mean by older. Lots of British cars used SU pumps.

SU, did that really mean "Skinners Union" as I was told when a lad?...

Where would we be without Wikipedia, eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetor

cough

"SU Carburettor
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from SU carburetor)"

They aren't American

Andy

On 13/07/13 21:57, Theo Markettos wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:
It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in a
similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the valves,
fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the engine
moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other cylinders start
to fire.
It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel
Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in the carburettor
You might get away with the contents of the float chamber pulled in by a
suitable through-draught of air (so no need for fuel pump), but if the
engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work, but
not on a mostly-mechanical car.
Thats why you took the plugs put and cranked it on full; choke for a bit
before putting the plugs back in

Or simply filled the float chamber or dribbled some neat fuel in the air
intake

Theo


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 14/07/13 11:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
But we were talking about an engine that's cold and not turning over.
You either need a starter motor/handle to make it turn over, or ignite
some fuel/air mixture to make it go. But this mixture doesn't just
appear in the cylinders - either you use EFI, or you need the effect of
the engine turning over to draw it in. So I can't see how you can make
an unmodified carburetted engine to fire without it already turning over.
As I said, some older Rolls Royce were known for starting without the use
of the starter motor. Think Silver Ghost. Obviously, carburettor.
They had mechanical control over the ignition timing via a lever on the
steering column. Switch on, waggle the lever which caused the points to
open and therefore a spark (coil ignition), and off it went - igniting the
fuel left in the cylinder from last time the engine was run. Even, I'm
told, years later. ;-)

The design of those early engines may have been a deciding factor - long
stroke, low compression, heavy flywheel and 6 cylinders. Doesn't mean the
same trick would work with every engine.


|I do it on the ride on lawnmower too.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 14/07/2013 12:00 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 13 Jul 2013 21:57:15 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car
engine
in a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close
the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to
start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in
the carburettor You might get away with the contents of the float
chamber pulled in by a suitable through-draught of air (so no need for
fuel pump), but if the engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work,
but not on a mostly-mechanical car.

Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn
ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn
handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it
through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the
venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.



Back in the early 60's, our next door neighbour was one of the very
few cars seen on the estate.

His 'effing and blinding' on early winter mornings was far superior to
the alarm clock.


--
One click voting to change the world.
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/
Join Now! Be a part of people power.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/
Biting the hand that feeds IT

ixquick - The PRIVATE Search Engine!

In article , Theo Markettos wrote:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.

In article ,
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Theo Markettos wrote:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.

Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used electric
pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:42:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.

Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used
electric pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.

Meanwhile, petrol/carb'd VW transporters were using engine-driven
mechanical pumps into the '90s, and the launch of the T4 coinciding with
the UK requirement for cats/injection.

In article , RayL12
scribeth thus
On 14/07/2013 12:00 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 13 Jul 2013 21:57:15 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car
engine
in a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close
the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to
start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in
the carburettor You might get away with the contents of the float
chamber pulled in by a suitable through-draught of air (so no need for
fuel pump), but if the engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work,
but not on a mostly-mechanical car.

Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn
ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn
handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it
through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the
venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.



Back in the early 60's, our next door neighbour was one of the very
few cars seen on the estate.

His 'effing and blinding' on early winter mornings was far superior to
the alarm clock.



LOL!, round our way there were more Fords than a little and they were
all **** poor at starting especially my dads old Anglia that was a joke.

Several garages tried but that thing never started easily.

In fact in cold weather when he came home from work he'd take the plugs
out and put them on the hot plate in the morning, and then we'd get them
back into the car and that did help plus the spare battery to assist the
one on the car..


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , RayL12
scribeth thus
On 14/07/2013 12:00 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 13 Jul 2013 21:57:15 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car
engine
in a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close
the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to
start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.

It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in
the carburettor You might get away with the contents of the float
chamber pulled in by a suitable through-draught of air (so no need for
fuel pump), but if the engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work,
but not on a mostly-mechanical car.

Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn
ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn
handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it
through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the
venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.



Back in the early 60's, our next door neighbour was one of the very
few cars seen on the estate.

His 'effing and blinding' on early winter mornings was far superior to
the alarm clock.



LOL!, round our way there were more Fords than a little and they were
all **** poor at starting especially my dads old Anglia that was a joke.

Several garages tried but that thing never started easily.

In fact in cold weather when he came home from work he'd take the plugs
out and put them on the hot plate in the morning, and then we'd get them
back into the car and that did help plus the spare battery to assist the
one on the car..

I assume this was the old "sit up and beg" one. My 105E and later 123E had
no starting problems that I remember. I doubt if I'd have gone on to buy a
Cortina Mk 3 if teh Anglia had misbehaved.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 18/07/13 10:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Theo Markettos wrote:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel
How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.
Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used electric
pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.

I can only remember a handful of cars with mechanicals. One being a
Vauxhall Viva.

I think electric pumps stated in the 60's, and were pretty much
ubiquitous by the 70s.
They did of course offer a huge advantage: you didn't need to crank the
engine to get fuel into the carbs.
THAT was a huge improvement in starting.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 18/07/13 11:22, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:42:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel
How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.
Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used
electric pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.
Meanwhile, petrol/carb'd VW transporters were using engine-driven
mechanical pumps into the '90s, and the launch of the T4 coinciding with
the UK requirement for cats/injection.
Mm. I do believe you are right on VW flat fours..
As I said, apart from deezils, many of which would run with no battery
or alternator connected at all, I can not recall that many mechanical
pumps beyind early 70s vauxhalls.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 18/07/13 12:28, charles wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , RayL12
scribeth thus
On 14/07/2013 12:00 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 13 Jul 2013 21:57:15 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car
engine
in a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close
the
valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to
start the
engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other
cylinders start to fire.
It might, except:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in
the carburettor You might get away with the contents of the float
chamber pulled in by a suitable through-draught of air (so no need for
fuel pump), but if the engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work,
but not on a mostly-mechanical car.
Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn
ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn
handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it
through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the
venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.


Back in the early 60's, our next door neighbour was one of the very
few cars seen on the estate.

His 'effing and blinding' on early winter mornings was far superior to
the alarm clock.


LOL!, round our way there were more Fords than a little and they were
all **** poor at starting especially my dads old Anglia that was a joke.
Several garages tried but that thing never started easily.
In fact in cold weather when he came home from work he'd take the plugs
out and put them on the hot plate in the morning, and then we'd get them
back into the car and that did help plus the spare battery to assist the
one on the car..
I assume this was the old "sit up and beg" one. My 105E and later 123E had
no starting problems that I remember. I doubt if I'd have gone on to buy a
Cortina Mk 3 if teh Anglia had misbehaved.

yeah. never had a problem with 60s and 70s fords. Never liked the
escorts and cortinas to drive, but the engines usually started.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Meanwhile, petrol/carb'd VW transporters were using engine-driven
mechanical pumps into the '90s, and the launch of the T4 coinciding with
the UK requirement for cats/injection.

Rover reverted to mechanical pumps for the P6 models - the previous P4 etc
were SU electric. But carried on with SU carbs. It may have been to do
with using a return fuel line, though. But when back to electric on the
SD1.

--
*I'm not a paranoid, deranged millionaire. Dammit, I'm a billionaire.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
LOL!, round our way there were more Fords than a little and they were
all **** poor at starting especially my dads old Anglia that was a joke.

Several garages tried but that thing never started easily.

In fact in cold weather when he came home from work he'd take the plugs
out and put them on the hot plate in the morning, and then we'd get them
back into the car and that did help plus the spare battery to assist the
one on the car..

Sounds like your garages weren't too clever. Even the ones with 6 volt
electrics started OK in an Aberdeen winter.

--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:56:56 AM UTC+1, Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Theo Markettos wrote:


Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.


Our 1959 Morris Minor had an electric fuel pump. You'd hear it go "clop" every half minute or so.

Robert

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/13 10:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Theo Markettos
wrote:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel
How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.
Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used electric
pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.

I can only remember a handful of cars with mechanicals. One being a
Vauxhall Viva.

I think electric pumps stated in the 60's, and were pretty much
ubiquitous by the 70s.
They did of course offer a huge advantage: you didn't need to crank the
engine to get fuel into the carbs.
THAT was a huge improvement in starting.



I don't have to turn the engine over to get fuel into the carb on my
1968 Land Rover which has a mechanical pump, as it has a priming lever
on the pump, as have almost all the mechanical fuel pumps I've
encountered on cars, lorries and coaches over the years.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

RobertL wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:56:56 AM UTC+1, Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Theo Markettos wrote:


Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.


Our 1959 Morris Minor had an electric fuel pump. You'd hear it go "clop" every half minute or so.

They also gave you a couple of miles warning before you actually ran out
of fuel, by going into Brrrrrrr... Brrrrrrr..... mode.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 18/07/2013 09:56, Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Theo Markettos wrote:
Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.

My 1988 Sierra had a mechanical pump.

My kit car (with a Sierra engine) has had its pump replaced with an
electric one - much easier to start after it's been standing for the winter.

SteveW

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 18/07/13 11:22, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:42:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine
turning over to pump fuel
How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.
Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used
electric pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.
Meanwhile, petrol/carb'd VW transporters were using engine-driven
mechanical pumps into the '90s, and the launch of the T4 coinciding with
the UK requirement for cats/injection.
Mm. I do believe you are right on VW flat fours..
As I said, apart from deezils, many of which would run with no battery
or alternator connected at all, I can not recall that many mechanical
pumps beyind early 70s vauxhalls.



My 72 Viva HC had a mechanical pump Also 66 Ford Corsair (I think)
--
bert

On Friday, July 19, 2013 12:13:49 PM UTC+1, bert wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher

writes

On 18/07/13 11:22, Adrian wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:42:11 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine

turning over to pump fuel

How old is "older"? My 1976 Renault 6 had an electric pump.

Pretty well all post WW2 Nuffield products (Morris, MG etc) used

electric pumps. And quite a few pre WW2. As did Rolls Royce and Jaguar.

Meanwhile, petrol/carb'd VW transporters were using engine-driven

mechanical pumps into the '90s, and the launch of the T4 coinciding with

the UK requirement for cats/injection.

Mm. I do believe you are right on VW flat fours..

As I said, apart from deezils, many of which would run with no battery

or alternator connected at all, I can not recall that many mechanical

pumps beyind early 70s vauxhalls.







My 72 Viva HC had a mechanical pump Also 66 Ford Corsair (I think)

--

bert

ISTR having a Humpty Dumpty Hillman Hunter with a mechanical fuel pump. About 1970.

In article ,
fred wrote:
My 72 Viva HC had a mechanical pump Also 66 Ford Corsair (I think)

--

bert

ISTR having a Humpty Dumpty Hillman Hunter with a mechanical fuel pump.
About 1970.

As a general rule for UK cars of that age, it was only those which used SU
carbs that had electric pumps. So mainly BMC and purely UK car makers. The
multinationals wouldn't pay out for decent carbs. ;-)

--
*Half the people in the world are below average.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 15/07/2013 01:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/07/13 11:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Theo Markettos wrote:
But we were talking about an engine that's cold and not turning over.
You either need a starter motor/handle to make it turn over, or ignite
some fuel/air mixture to make it go. But this mixture doesn't just
appear in the cylinders - either you use EFI, or you need the effect of
the engine turning over to draw it in. So I can't see how you can make
an unmodified carburetted engine to fire without it already turning
over.
As I said, some older Rolls Royce were known for starting without the use
of the starter motor. Think Silver Ghost. Obviously, carburettor.
They had mechanical control over the ignition timing via a lever on the
steering column. Switch on, waggle the lever which caused the points to
open and therefore a spark (coil ignition), and off it went - igniting
the
fuel left in the cylinder from last time the engine was run. Even, I'm
told, years later. ;-)

The design of those early engines may have been a deciding factor - long
stroke, low compression, heavy flywheel and 6 cylinders. Doesn't mean the
same trick would work with every engine.


|I do it on the ride on lawnmower too.



Your ride-on lawnmower has manually variable ignition timing? Like a
Manx, a Goldie, or a Thruxton?

In article , you say...


As a general rule for UK cars of that age, it was only those which used SU
carbs that had electric pumps. So mainly BMC and purely UK car makers. The
multinationals wouldn't pay out for decent carbs. ;-)

Cough, Triumph, cough.

Ben

In article ,
Ben Harrington wrote:
In article , you say...


As a general rule for UK cars of that age, it was only those which
used SU carbs that had electric pumps. So mainly BMC and purely UK car
makers. The multinationals wouldn't pay out for decent carbs. ;-)

Cough, Triumph, cough.

Some Standard-Triumph group products used SU carbs, some not. Same with
SU pumps.

--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 00:46:11 +0100, SteveW wrote:

Engine capacity and compression don't matter as you can use the old aero
engine trick - winding the starter handle to run up a flywheel and then
use the energy stored in that to start the engine.

That's assuming there is a decompression mechansium. I don't think
any production cars, diesel or petrol, have that.

The pull start on our small diesel genset is impossible unless you
operate the decompression lever, then as you say you can spin up the
fly wheel, let go the decompression lever and hope it fires.

--
Cheers
Dave.