An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network operator for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both confirmed that the Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when it should be below 0.8


In conclusion, no earth is provided to the house.

The type of earthing is by underground cable.

UK Power Netoworks can provide a Protective Permanent Earth but, to my surprise, I have to pay for it, which can be quite expensive because it implies digging up the street and the floor of the house.

Should not the electricity supplying company be responsible for this?

I will also check the price of installing an earth electrode.

Thanks,

Antonio

On Friday, June 21, 2013 1:18:48 PM UTC+1, asalcedo wrote:
UK Power Netoworks can provide a Protective Permanent Earth but, to my
surprise, I have to pay for it, which can be quite expensive because it
implies digging up the street and the floor of the house.
Should not the electricity supplying company be responsible for this?

No; the electricity company is not responsible for supplying an earth.

Where they do supply one, however, they are responsible for continuing to supply it.

Owain

On 21/06/2013 13:18, asalcedo wrote:

An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network operator
for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both confirmed that the
Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when it
should be below 0.8


In conclusion, no earth is provided to the house.

The type of earthing is by underground cable.

UK Power Netoworks can provide a Protective Permanent Earth but, to my
surprise, I have to pay for it, which can be quite expensive because it
implies digging up the street and the floor of the house.

Should not the electricity supplying company be responsible for this?

As far as I am aware, there is no requirement that they supply an earth
at all, however I thought that if they did then it had to actually work!

Converting to TT is obviously an option, but not necessarily a
particularly cheap one either (earth spike and connection, and possibly
a new CU etc)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
As far as I am aware, there is no requirement that they supply an earth
at all, however I thought that if they did then it had to actually work!

It's really something which should be changed now - after all an earth is
considered essential. The water companies, for example, were forced into
adopting shared drains. So same sort of thing.

Converting to TT is obviously an option, but not necessarily a
particularly cheap one either (earth spike and connection, and possibly
a new CU etc)

--
*Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hi John,

The background to this thread is a previous thread here, http://www.diybanter.com/uk-diy/3567...reading-3.html

Basically, a washing machine engineer found an Earth Loop Impedance reading too high at the machine socket and refused to repair it.

After investigating the issue we found that the fault was the main earth as described in this thread.

Based on your inputs in that prior thread and based on the comments by the electrician that visited the property I thought that the electricity supplier was going to take care of it, but UK Power Networks says is not the case. They write:

"The new ESQC 2002 regulations require UK Power Networks to provide the facility for the customer to connect to the neutral or the protective conductor but only when installing a new electric service line or replacing an existing one, and then only when appropriate"

"The earlier regulations (1937/1988) imposed no specific requirement upon electricity supply companies to provide an earthing facility for customers' use. Therefore, where an earthing facility was provided, this was done without obligation and with no guarantee as to its performance"

UK Power Networks also said by phone that I am not required to do these works.

Am I required or not?

I have been living in the house for over 10 years without issues and have only found out about this by chance.

Would placing RCDs be a safe and legal alternative?


Thanks,

Antonio

On Saturday 22 June 2013 08:13 asalcedo wrote in uk.d-i-y:


John Rumm;3082583 Wrote:
On 21/06/2013 13:18, asalcedo wrote:-

An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network operator
for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both confirmed that
the
Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when it
should be below 0.8


In conclusion, no earth is provided to the house.

The type of earthing is by underground cable.

UK Power Netoworks can provide a Protective Permanent Earth but, to my
surprise, I have to pay for it, which can be quite expensive because
it
implies digging up the street and the floor of the house.

Should not the electricity supplying company be responsible for this?-

As far as I am aware, there is no requirement that they supply an earth

at all, however I thought that if they did then it had to actually
work!

Converting to TT is obviously an option, but not necessarily a
particularly cheap one either (earth spike and connection, and possibly

a new CU etc)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - 'Internode Limited - Computer Consultancy
and Software Development' (http://www.internode.co.uk) |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hi John,

The background to this thread is a previous thread here,
http://tinyurl.com/lyeab9u

Basically, a washing machine engineer found an Earth Loop Impedance
reading too high at the machine socket and refused to repair it.

After investigating the issue we found that the fault was the main earth
as described in this thread.

Based on your inputs in that prior thread and based on the comments by
the electrician that visited the property I thought that the electricity
supplier was going to take care of it, but UK Power Networks says is not
the case. They write:

"The new ESQC 2002 regulations require UK Power Networks to provide the
facility for the customer to connect to the neutral or the protective
conductor but only when installing a new electric service line or
replacing an existing one, and then only when appropriate"

"The earlier regulations (1937/1988) imposed no specific requirement
upon electricity supply companies to provide an earthing facility for
customers' use. Therefore, where an earthing facility was provided, this
was done without obligation and with no guarantee as to its
performance"

UK Power Networks also said by phone that I am not required to do these
works.

Am I required or not?

Most power companies regard earthing failure as an emergency and you are
justified in calling the company's emergency number.

With any luck you will get the problem dealt with by a technical team and
not some eejit on "customer services".


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

asalcedo wrote:
John Rumm;3082583 Wrote:
On 21/06/2013 13:18, asalcedo wrote:-

An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network
operator for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both
confirmed that the
Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when
it should be below 0.8


In conclusion, no earth is provided to the house.

The type of earthing is by underground cable.

UK Power Netoworks can provide a Protective Permanent Earth but, to
my surprise, I have to pay for it, which can be quite expensive
because it
implies digging up the street and the floor of the house.

Should not the electricity supplying company be responsible for
this?-

As far as I am aware, there is no requirement that they supply an
earth

at all, however I thought that if they did then it had to actually
work!

Converting to TT is obviously an option, but not necessarily a
particularly cheap one either (earth spike and connection, and
possibly

a new CU etc)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
Internode Ltd - 'Internode Limited - Computer Consultancy
and Software Development' (http://www.internode.co.uk) |
-----------------------------------------------------------------|
John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hi John,

The background to this thread is a previous thread here,
http://tinyurl.com/lyeab9u

There looks to be an earth not connected on the supply cable.

--
Adam

On 22/06/2013 08:13, asalcedo wrote:
John Rumm;3082583 Wrote:
On 21/06/2013 13:18, asalcedo wrote:-

An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network operator
for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both confirmed that
the
Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when it
should be below 0.8

Hi John,

The background to this thread is a previous thread here,
http://tinyurl.com/lyeab9u

Basically, a washing machine engineer found an Earth Loop Impedance
reading too high at the machine socket and refused to repair it.

After investigating the issue we found that the fault was the main earth
as described in this thread.

Based on your inputs in that prior thread and based on the comments by
the electrician that visited the property I thought that the electricity
supplier was going to take care of it, but UK Power Networks says is not
the case. They write:

"The new ESQC 2002 regulations require UK Power Networks to provide the
facility for the customer to connect to the neutral or the protective
conductor but only when installing a new electric service line or
replacing an existing one, and then only when appropriate"

"The earlier regulations (1937/1988) imposed no specific requirement
upon electricity supply companies to provide an earthing facility for
customers' use. Therefore, where an earthing facility was provided, this
was done without obligation and with no guarantee as to its
performance"

UK Power Networks also said by phone that I am not required to do these
works.

Am I required or not?

Required, as in legally? No.

Required as in common sense making sure you and any visitors stay alive?
Absolutely.

I have been living in the house for over 10 years without issues and
have only found out about this by chance.

Would placing RCDs be a safe and legal alternative?

Kind of...

With a Ze (external earth impedance) of 37 ohms, then a RCD would be
required for *all* circuits. However not the same RCD - you need
several. The question that then remains, is that if this earth is so
poor (and its supposed to be TN-S - so the likely reason for the poor
earth is cable sheath damage in the supply or similar) then can you (or
would it be wise to) rely on it staying in its current state of non
functionality and not get any worse. The answer to which can only really
be "no".

That means you need an independent earth to be certain.

Going this route you are in effect going TT. No big deal in the general
sense, but you need an insulated CU (an earth fault in a metal one prior
to the RCDs would never be cleared).

So in the same circumstances I would slap in an earth rod, and a new
17th edition style insulated CU with at least a couple of RCDs as a
minimum. If going for a posher solution, then an all RCBO CU or possibly
multiple CUs depending on how many circuits you have etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:17:16 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 22/06/2013 08:13, asalcedo wrote:
John Rumm;3082583 Wrote:
On 21/06/2013 13:18, asalcedo wrote:-

An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network operator
for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both confirmed that
the
Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when it
should be below 0.8
Hi John,

The background to this thread is a previous thread here,
http://tinyurl.com/lyeab9u

Basically, a washing machine engineer found an Earth Loop Impedance
reading too high at the machine socket and refused to repair it.

After investigating the issue we found that the fault was the main earth
as described in this thread.

Based on your inputs in that prior thread and based on the comments by
the electrician that visited the property I thought that the electricity
supplier was going to take care of it, but UK Power Networks says is not
the case. They write:

"The new ESQC 2002 regulations require UK Power Networks to provide the
facility for the customer to connect to the neutral or the protective
conductor but only when installing a new electric service line or
replacing an existing one, and then only when appropriate"

"The earlier regulations (1937/1988) imposed no specific requirement
upon electricity supply companies to provide an earthing facility for
customers' use. Therefore, where an earthing facility was provided, this
was done without obligation and with no guarantee as to its
performance"

UK Power Networks also said by phone that I am not required to do these
works.

Am I required or not?

Required, as in legally? No.
Required as in common sense making sure you and any visitors stay alive?
Absolutely.

OP should definitely fix the situation without delay. And there are legal risks/comebacks if one fails to. Exposing people to a system you know to be dangerous could land you in very hot water if things go wrong.

But should you pay for the supplier to fix the earth? No, its not legally required and would not be sensible. Use your own earth rod.

I have been living in the house for over 10 years without issues and
have only found out about this by chance.

Would placing RCDs be a safe and legal alternative?

Kind of...

No, you need RCDs covering all circuits plus an earth rod. With no rod you're relying on an earth feed that's likely about to go o/c (the fault cause is likely to be corrosion). It might be acceptable in the 3rd world, but not here.


With a Ze (external earth impedance) of 37 ohms, then a RCD would be
required for *all* circuits. However not the same RCD - you need
several. The question that then remains, is that if this earth is so
poor (and its supposed to be TN-S - so the likely reason for the poor
earth is cable sheath damage in the supply or similar) then can you (or
would it be wise to) rely on it staying in its current state of non
functionality and not get any worse. The answer to which can only really
be "no".
That means you need an independent earth to be certain.
Going this route you are in effect going TT. No big deal in the general
sense, but you need an insulated CU (an earth fault in a metal one prior
to the RCDs would never be cleared).
So in the same circumstances I would slap in an earth rod, and a new
17th edition style insulated CU with at least a couple of RCDs as a
minimum. If going for a posher solution, then an all RCBO CU or possibly
multiple CUs depending on how many circuits you have etc.

Be aware that plastic (insulated) CUs are often not fireproofed and have caused house fires. Last I heard those ones were due to be banned from sale. So pick with consideration. A split CU is best, preferably with an RCBO for each socket circuit. In an ideal world, an RCBO for every circuit.


NT

In article ,
asalcedo writes:

Hi John,

The background to this thread is a previous thread here,
http://tinyurl.com/lyeab9u

Basically, a washing machine engineer found an Earth Loop Impedance
reading too high at the machine socket and refused to repair it.

After investigating the issue we found that the fault was the main earth
as described in this thread.

Based on your inputs in that prior thread and based on the comments by
the electrician that visited the property I thought that the electricity
supplier was going to take care of it, but UK Power Networks says is not
the case. They write:

"The new ESQC 2002 regulations require UK Power Networks to provide the
facility for the customer to connect to the neutral or the protective
conductor but only when installing a new electric service line or
replacing an existing one, and then only when appropriate"

"The earlier regulations (1937/1988) imposed no specific requirement
upon electricity supply companies to provide an earthing facility for
customers' use. Therefore, where an earthing facility was provided, this
was done without obligation and with no guarantee as to its
performance"

UK Power Networks also said by phone that I am not required to do these
works.

Am I required or not?

I have been living in the house for over 10 years without issues and
have only found out about this by chance.

If you actually developed a genuine earth fault which resulted in
240V across that 37 ohms, (which is dangerous because the earthed
metalwork in the installation will be live) and if that 37 ohms
resistance is in one place in the cable, the resulting 1.5kW generated
might burn out the whole cable at the fault site quite quickly,
resulting in the need to replace it, and that would probably include
fixing the earthing too. Alternatively, it might just burn out what's
left of the earth connection completely.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

There are also connections to the mains gas and water copper pipes.

The Ze reading at the distribution board, is 1.03 and 1.92 at the sockets.

On 24/06/2013 09:20, asalcedo wrote:

There are also connections to the mains gas and water copper pipes.

The Ze reading at the distribution board, is 1.03 and 1.92 at the
sockets.

Those are Zs readings, not Ze.

Ze is the part of the earth-fault-loop-impedance external to the
installation. It's measured with the means of earthing disconnected
from the installation and also from the main bonding, to remove the
effect of any 'fortuitous' earthing. It's therefore meaningless to talk
about the Ze at a socket.

Zs is the impedance of the complete earth-fault-loop at any particular
point (such as a socket). For convenience it's conventionally measured
with the main bonding connected, so benefits from the fortuitous
earthing via the main bonding.

It's clear that in your case, with the Ze 30 ohms and much lower Zs
readings, you are relying heavily on fortuitous earthing via the bonded
service pipes - and probably back to a good metallic earth via the main
bonding in other buildings. (This indicates that the bad supply earth
is probably quite local to your UKPN service.)

If someone came along next week and changed those pipes to plastic you'd
have no effective earthing, at least so far as any non-RCD-protected
circuits are concerned. This leaves a serious electric shock risk in
the event of an insulation fault in an appliance.

If UKPN won't fix the earth they provide FOC, you have two options: (i)
convert your installation to TT earthing - local earth electrode and
all circuits on RCDs, or (ii) pay UKPN. Ask them for a quote for a PME
conversion - that has to come with a good earth!

--
Andy

Well where is the Earth usually then? I doubt if many properties have had
their earths measured unless just rewired.
And yes, if its part of the service, which I guess it should be if its a
safely issue regarding a supply at the supply side of the CU, then there is
an argument that it should be maintained by them. However in todays world of
passing the buck who knows.
S Stuff some earth spikes in and bond everthing to it, and I suppose the
Neutral with a bit of luck their cable will blow up and they will have to
fix it.. grin.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:18:48 +0200, asalcedo
wrote:


An independent electrician and UK Power Networks, the network operator
for British Gas, the electricity supplier, have both confirmed that the
Earth Loop Impedance Test Ze value at the supply is 37.2 Ohms, when it
should be below 0.8


In conclusion, no earth is provided to the house.

The type of earthing is by underground cable.

UK Power Netoworks can provide a Protective Permanent Earth but, to my
surprise, I have to pay for it, which can be quite expensive because it
implies digging up the street and the floor of the house.

Should not the electricity supplying company be responsible for this?

I will also check the price of installing an earth electrode.

Thanks,

Antonio
Well, while 32 ohms is way too high - it's not O/C. Just wondered to
what did he measure this 32 Ohms? Could it be to the cable armour?
(If any)

"Brian Gaff" writes:

Well where is the Earth usually then? I doubt if many properties have had
their earths measured unless just rewired.
And yes, if its part of the service, which I guess it should be if its a
safely issue regarding a supply at the supply side of the CU, then there is
an argument that it should be maintained by them. However in todays world of
passing the buck who knows.

There were reports in the local papers some time ago, when they were
digging up all of Leith St. and putting small shops out of business in
preparation for tram track installation (now curtailed due to lack of
funds), that the replacement of metal utility pipes by plastic meant
that owners of adjacent properties should check their earth connections
to see if they needed to provide their own.

Very much trying to pass the buck. But it's Edinburgh Council.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

Windmill wrote:

There were reports in the local papers some time ago, when they were
digging up all of Leith St. and putting small shops out of business in
preparation for tram track installation (now curtailed due to lack of
funds), that the replacement of metal utility pipes by plastic meant
that owners of adjacent properties should check their earth connections
to see if they needed to provide their own.

Very much trying to pass the buck. But it's Edinburgh Council.

That's been the rule for a long time - mains gas or water pipes are not
acceptable as an earth, and the utility company can change the metal
pipes for plastic whenever they like.

Mike

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 08:33:05 GMT, lid
(Windmill) wrote:

"Brian Gaff" writes:

Well where is the Earth usually then? I doubt if many properties have had
their earths measured unless just rewired.
And yes, if its part of the service, which I guess it should be if its a
safely issue regarding a supply at the supply side of the CU, then there is
an argument that it should be maintained by them. However in todays world of
passing the buck who knows.

There were reports in the local papers some time ago, when they were
digging up all of Leith St. and putting small shops out of business in
preparation for tram track installation (now curtailed due to lack of
funds), that the replacement of metal utility pipes by plastic meant
that owners of adjacent properties should check their earth connections
to see if they needed to provide their own.

Very much trying to pass the buck. But it's Edinburgh Council.

Officialdom in Leith dismissive?
Heaven forfend.



--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 7/1/2013 5:48 PM, Graham. wrote:

Officialdom in Leith dismissive?
Heaven forfend.