I am thinking of fitting a multi-fuel stove, probably around 8kW.

At the moment a standard open fire place exists. It has an "ash box" beneath the grate with vents in it that are supplied with air from the underfloor void by a tube under the hearth. The fireplace and flue depth is 9 inches and the back of the flue is only a half brick thick, but is made of blue engineering bricks and does not seem damp at all. The flue is open - no liner of any sort.
The rest of the wall is solid 9" brick. The fireplace is on an exterior wall.
Fire surround with be traditional wooden painted white.
I will have a carbon monoxide detector for obvious reasons.

I have some questions. Hopefully this does not seem too lazy - perhaps a section could be added to the wiki eventually ...

1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ? Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior vent in the actual room ?

2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)

3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ? How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire surround and mantel be ?

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?

5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in some way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK for regs ?

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?

Thanks,
Simon.

On Apr 13, 7:18*pm, sm_jamieson wrote:
I am thinking of fitting a multi-fuel stove, probably around 8kW.

At the moment a standard open fire place exists. It has an "ash box" beneath the grate with vents in it that are supplied with air from the underfloor void by a tube under the hearth. The fireplace and flue depth is 9 inches and the back of the flue is only a half brick thick, but is made of blue engineering bricks and does not seem damp at all. The flue is open - no liner of any sort.
The rest of the wall is solid 9" brick. The fireplace is on an exterior wall.
Fire surround with be traditional wooden painted white.
I will have a carbon monoxide detector for obvious reasons.

I have some questions. Hopefully this does not seem too lazy - perhaps a section could be added to the wiki eventually ...

1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ? Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior vent in the actual room ?


You can now get room sealed stoves where the air is drawn in a pipe
that goes to the outside. Worth their weight in gold. (No cold air
drawn into the room.)


2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)
Yes. Refer to manufacturers instructions

3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ? How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire surround and mantel be ?

Probably best to remove everything right down to the builders opening.

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate)

There is a plate top and bottom of the chimney. Double liners don't
need addtional insulation.


5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in
some way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK
for regs ?

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?

Some stoves are designed to run with doors open, some not.

All this work is supposed to be done by a trained operative these
days.

Don't forget your CO alarm.

In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 13, 7:18*pm, sm_jamieson wrote:
I am thinking of fitting a multi-fuel stove, probably around 8kW.

At the moment a standard open fire place exists. It has an "ash box"
beneath the grate with vents in it that are supplied with air from the
underfloor void by a tube under the hearth. The fireplace and flue
depth is 9 inches and the back of the flue is only a half brick thick,
but is made of blue engineering bricks and does not seem damp at all.
The flue is open - no liner of any sort.
The rest of the wall is solid 9" brick. The fireplace is on an exterior wall.
Fire surround with be traditional wooden painted white.
I will have a carbon monoxide detector for obvious reasons.

I have some questions. Hopefully this does not seem too lazy -
perhaps a section could be added to the wiki eventually ...

1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ?
Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below
the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior
vent in the actual room ?


You can now get room sealed stoves where the air is drawn in a pipe
that goes to the outside. Worth their weight in gold. (No cold air
drawn into the room.)


2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid /
double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)
Yes. Refer to manufacturers instructions

3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall
(rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out
proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than
the fire surround also) ? How high above the stop of the stove must a
painted timber fire surround and mantel be ?

Probably best to remove everything right down to the builders opening.

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating
material (presumably held in with a register plate)

There is a plate top and bottom of the chimney. Double liners don't
need addtional insulation.


5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in
some way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK
for regs ?

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much
wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short
periods of time ?

Some stoves are designed to run with doors open, some not.

All this work is supposed to be done by a trained operative these
days.
AIUI the installer needs a HETAS certificate or your home insurance is
invalidated. A local guy who does such work didn't know that until he'd
installed his own. He couldn't use it until he passed the exam late last
year.

http://www.hetas.co.uk/

Don't forget your CO alarm.
He said that in his opening paragraph.
--
Nick (=----)

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 7:31:12 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Apr 13, 7:18*pm, sm_jamieson wrote:

I am thinking of fitting a multi-fuel stove, probably around 8kW.



At the moment a standard open fire place exists. It has an "ash box" beneath the grate with vents in it that are supplied with air from the underfloor void by a tube under the hearth. The fireplace and flue depth is 9 inches and the back of the flue is only a half brick thick, but is made of blue engineering bricks and does not seem damp at all. The flue is open - no liner of any sort.

The rest of the wall is solid 9" brick. The fireplace is on an exterior wall.

Fire surround with be traditional wooden painted white.

I will have a carbon monoxide detector for obvious reasons.



I have some questions. Hopefully this does not seem too lazy - perhaps a section could be added to the wiki eventually ...



1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ? Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior vent in the actual room ?





You can now get room sealed stoves where the air is drawn in a pipe

that goes to the outside. Worth their weight in gold. (No cold air

drawn into the room.)





2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)

Yes. Refer to manufacturers instructions



3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ? How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire surround and mantel be ?



Probably best to remove everything right down to the builders opening.



4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate)



There is a plate top and bottom of the chimney. Double liners don't

need addtional insulation.





5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in

some way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK

for regs ?



6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?



7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?



Some stoves are designed to run with doors open, some not.



All this work is supposed to be done by a trained operative these

days.



Don't forget your CO alarm.

As a matter of interest, what is required to safely resurrect an open fire that was last used about 40 years ago ?
Is a "chimney sweep" allowed to just check the draw and make sure the chimney won't catch fire ?
Are you supposed to have a liner and use a hetas engineer ?
Anyway, I guess a liner would be a good idea as the original lime mortar might be a bit leaky.

Simon.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ?

Through various adjustable vents. Normally in the doors to under the
grate and at the top to provide an "air wash" down the glass in the doors
to try and keep them clean. There is no ducted air inlet on most stoves.

Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below
the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior
vent in the actual room ?

Sounds like your existing open fire is a "Baxi Burnall". We had one and
when the hearth was installed for the stove the air feed that went into
the ash box space was extended with a swept 110 mm waste bend to a hole
in the slate hearth. This is positioned to rear of the stove, allows
"enough" ventilation and can't be seen.

2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double
wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)

Really depends on the state of the existing chimney. I'd say yes as stove
shoves out flue gases some what hotter than an open fire and a cold
chimney may cause excessive condensation of tar and may lead to a chimney
fire. Size will be dictated by the stove, the installation instructions
will tell you what it needs. The most common size is 6".

3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall
(rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out
proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than
the fire surround also) ?

Ours does:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6370269929

Be aware they get damn hot. Keeping young children away and not falling
against it when on is recomended. B-) Also be aware of the proximity of
soft furnishings.

How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire
surround and mantel be ?

Building regs have something to say about how close stuff can be and the
size/thickness of the hearth etc.

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating
material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?

I would, even if the maker suggests that it's not required. We have a
twin wall 7" liner. Pretty sure it's not insulated right to the top (I
only saw two emoty bags of vermiculite...). The liner maker said it
doesn't need insulation but the bottom of the flue has to be cleared of a
bucket full of crispy crumbly burnt tar once a month running the stove 7
hrs/day on seasoned hardwood.

5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in some
way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK for
regs ?

I should think so. Isn't celotex fire approved?

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much
wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

Look at the building regs for minimum clearances.

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short
periods of time ?

Yes, though most stove makers don't recomend it. Knackers effciency and
lowers the flue gas temperatures.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 13/04/13 19:18, sm_jamieson wrote:
I am thinking of fitting a multi-fuel stove, probably around 8kW.

At the moment a standard open fire place exists. It has an "ash box" beneath the grate with vents in it that are supplied with air from the underfloor void by a tube under the hearth. The fireplace and flue depth is 9 inches and the back of the flue is only a half brick thick, but is made of blue engineering bricks and does not seem damp at all. The flue is open - no liner of any sort.
The rest of the wall is solid 9" brick. The fireplace is on an exterior wall.
Fire surround with be traditional wooden painted white.
I will have a carbon monoxide detector for obvious reasons.

I have some questions. Hopefully this does not seem too lazy - perhaps a section could be added to the wiki eventually ...

1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ? Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior vent in the actual room ?

youi d9onmt need anything more than the underfloor vents to meet
COMBUSTION requirements. You may still need trickle vents to comply with
ORDINARY ventilation as the regs say the air has to be from above a
certain level

2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)

Yes. If the house is pre 1970 (IIRC) a flexible l;nert may be allowable,
otherwise duble layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is the
most expensive bit. In any case its advisable to prevent soot build up -
the flue inner heats quickly and doesn't soot uop nearly as fast.


3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ?

yes, but a non combustible hearth must be provided. There are minimum
dimesnions in te regs. Look them up.


How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire surround and mantel be ?

I would advise ar least 9". the stove itself can, under exceptional
circumstances reach 200C plus. Under fault it may even go to red heat,
if its not got a water jacket and back boiler. needless to say you would
not normally run it like that, but if you do put very dry thin wood like
crates on... I have seen stoves and pipes a dull red..

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?

Not if its a double insulated flue: but for a flexible liner, yes you
should, and thats the problem. Pouring the insulant down from the to
doesn't locatete flue centrally,necessarily.,


5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in some way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK for regs ?

Don't bother with the celotex. its not fireproof anyway- it will charr.
One or two layer of cement fire board will be all you need. Ive used
thata s a protecting plate for puimbing /blowlamp work. Its amazingly
effective stuff. But if it's blockwork id simply render it..

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

Wide enough to stack logs each side :-)

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?

if the ventilation is adequate yes. But we never do .,..

Thanks,
Simon.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:21:32 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:



1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ?

Through various adjustable vents. Normally in the doors to under the
grate and at the top to provide an "air wash" down the glass in the doors
to try and keep them clean. There is no ducted air inlet on most stoves.


I found a few on the internet. Not sure if that is compatible with the air wash design that I believe keeps the glass clean.
Also I was hoping to get a clean burn stove so I can burn logs in a smokeless zone. The bloke up the road gets away with it but the maximum fine is 1000 quid.

Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below
the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior
vent in the actual room ?

Sounds like your existing open fire is a "Baxi Burnall". We had one and
when the hearth was installed for the stove the air feed that went into
the ash box space was extended with a swept 110 mm waste bend to a hole
in the slate hearth. This is positioned to rear of the stove, allows
"enough" ventilation and can't be seen.

It says BAXI PATENT FIRE on that ties up.
Fair enough to a vent that is close enough to avoid draughts in the room


2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double
wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)

Really depends on the state of the existing chimney. I'd say yes as stove
shoves out flue gases some what hotter than an open fire and a cold
chimney may cause excessive condensation of tar and may lead to a chimney
fire. Size will be dictated by the stove, the installation instructions
will tell you what it needs. The most common size is 6".

3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall
(rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out
proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than
the fire surround also) ?

Ours does:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6370269929


Thats interesting - is the flue exiting out of the rear ? I didn't realise that could be done. I was expecting to need a dog leg flue to take the flue close enough to the back wall.

Be aware they get damn hot. Keeping young children away and not falling
against it when on is recomended. B-) Also be aware of the proximity of
soft furnishings.

Our first child is due in October ! A very good fire guard will be vital.


How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire
surround and mantel be ?

Building regs have something to say about how close stuff can be and the
size/thickness of the hearth etc.

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating
material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?

I would, even if the maker suggests that it's not required. We have a
twin wall 7" liner. Pretty sure it's not insulated right to the top (I
only saw two emoty bags of vermiculite...). The liner maker said it
doesn't need insulation but the bottom of the flue has to be cleared of a
bucket full of crispy crumbly burnt tar once a month running the stove 7
hrs/day on seasoned hardwood.

How do you do that ? Some type of brush up the flue ?


5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in some
way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK for
regs ?

I should think so. Isn't celotex fire approved?

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much
wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

Look at the building regs for minimum clearances.

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short
periods of time ?

Yes, though most stove makers don't recomend it. Knackers effciency and
lowers the flue gas temperatures.


If the flue gasses are cooler, stuff is more likely to condense in the flue so having the flue insulated might be a good idea.
But who doesn't want a crackling log now and then ?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Thanks,
Simon.

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:59:31 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/04/13 19:18, sm_jamieson wrote:

I am thinking of fitting a multi-fuel stove, probably around 8kW.



At the moment a standard open fire place exists. It has an "ash box" beneath the grate with vents in it that are supplied with air from the underfloor void by a tube under the hearth. The fireplace and flue depth is 9 inches and the back of the flue is only a half brick thick, but is made of blue engineering bricks and does not seem damp at all. The flue is open - no liner of any sort.

The rest of the wall is solid 9" brick. The fireplace is on an exterior wall.

Fire surround with be traditional wooden painted white.

I will have a carbon monoxide detector for obvious reasons.



I have some questions. Hopefully this does not seem too lazy - perhaps a section could be added to the wiki eventually ...



1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ? Can the inlet be connected to a duct so that it takes air from below the floor (which has air bricks !) thus avoiding need for an exterior vent in the actual room ?



youi d9onmt need anything more than the underfloor vents to meet

COMBUSTION requirements. You may still need trickle vents to comply with

ORDINARY ventilation as the regs say the air has to be from above a

certain level



2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)



Yes. If the house is pre 1970 (IIRC) a flexible l;nert may be allowable,

otherwise duble layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is the

most expensive bit. In any case its advisable to prevent soot build up -

the flue inner heats quickly and doesn't soot uop nearly as fast.



A flexible liner and insulation poured down the chimney might be cheaper ?
A suppose the flexi is ribbed which would trap tar, etc.




3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ?



yes, but a non combustible hearth must be provided. There are minimum

dimesnions in te regs. Look them up.





How high above the stop of the stove must a painted timber fire surround and mantel be ?



I would advise ar least 9". the stove itself can, under exceptional

circumstances reach 200C plus. Under fault it may even go to red heat,

if its not got a water jacket and back boiler. needless to say you would

not normally run it like that, but if you do put very dry thin wood like

crates on... I have seen stoves and pipes a dull red..



4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?



Not if its a double insulated flue: but for a flexible liner, yes you

should, and thats the problem. Pouring the insulant down from the to

doesn't locatete flue centrally,necessarily.,



Noted about the flue not centralising.




5. The half brick back to the recess will need to be insulated in some way. Is celotex covered with some type of cement fire board be OK for regs ?



Don't bother with the celotex. its not fireproof anyway- it will charr.

One or two layer of cement fire board will be all you need. Ive used

thata s a protecting plate for puimbing /blowlamp work. Its amazingly

effective stuff. But if it's blockwork id simply render it..



Its brickwork. The celotex was about insulating the wall since its only half brick at the back of the builder opening / flue. Without any it would be a very obvious cold bridge.


6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?



Wide enough to stack logs each side :-)



I guess I'll take it back to the builders opening and see what I've got.


7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?



if the ventilation is adequate yes. But we never do .,..



Thanks,

Simon.


Thanks again !
Simon.

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:59:31 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
snip

2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)

Yes. If the house is pre 1970 (IIRC) a flexible l;nert may be allowable,
otherwise duble layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is the
most expensive bit.

common misconception, in practice the cost of a flexible liner is not that much - a few hundred quid (in parts).


In any case its advisable to prevent soot build up -
the flue inner heats quickly and doesn't soot uop nearly as fast.

IOW the smaller cross section of the liner keep gases moving fast enough to get them out the chimney before the "tarry nasties" condense on the (warmer than std flue anyway) inner liner walls...

3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ?

yes, but a non combustible hearth must be provided. There are minimum
dimesnions in te regs. Look them up.

it will warm the room quicker if it projects (out from the chimney breast say). Think of it as a solid fuel powered convector heater (with secondary radiation)

Least optimal is a stove "tucked away" in a cramped hearth "where the fire used to be" - they need circulation air/space to work at their best.

4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?

Not if its a double insulated flue: but for a flexible liner, yes you
should,

agreed, the cost is trivial compared to the access issues (tower scaffold, cherry picker, wobbly ladder)

and thats the problem.

eh ??

Pouring the insulant down from the to
p?
doesn't locatete flue centrally,necessarily.,

but that's hardly critical is it?

6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?

Wide enough to stack logs each side :-)

but not so tight that the convection airflow is stifled. If it projects into the room then that's probly "n/a" anyway?

7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?

if the ventilation is adequate yes. But we never do .,..

what? define "adequate"?

Jim K

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44:42 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:59:31 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

snip



2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)



Yes. If the house is pre 1970 (IIRC) a flexible l;nert may be allowable,

otherwise duble layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is the

most expensive bit.



common misconception, in practice the cost of a flexible liner is not that much - a few hundred quid (in parts).



Presumably something like this would be fine:
http://www.fluesystems.com/shop/Chim..._904904_5.html




In any case its advisable to prevent soot build up -

the flue inner heats quickly and doesn't soot uop nearly as fast.



IOW the smaller cross section of the liner keep gases moving fast enough to get them out the chimney before the "tarry nasties" condense on the (warmer than std flue anyway) inner liner walls...



3. The chimney breast is not very deep and build partly into the wall (rear of flue only half brick. Is it OK for the stove to stick out proud of the non-combustible fireplace opening (possibly further than the fire surround also) ?



yes, but a non combustible hearth must be provided. There are minimum

dimesnions in te regs. Look them up.



it will warm the room quicker if it projects (out from the chimney breast say). Think of it as a solid fuel powered convector heater (with secondary radiation)



Least optimal is a stove "tucked away" in a cramped hearth "where the fire used to be" - they need circulation air/space to work at their best.



4. Do you need to fill around the liner in the flue with insulating material (presumably held in with a register plate) ?



Not if its a double insulated flue: but for a flexible liner, yes you

should,



agreed, the cost is trivial compared to the access issues (tower scaffold, cherry picker, wobbly ladder)

Surely a couple of guys on roof ladders ?
They don't use scaffolding or a cherry picker to fit a new TV aerial.




and thats the problem.



eh ??



Pouring the insulant down from the to

p?

doesn't locatete flue centrally,necessarily.,



but that's hardly critical is it?



6. I will have to widen the fireplace from the 16" fire box. How much wider than the stove does the opening need to be ?



Wide enough to stack logs each side :-)



but not so tight that the convection airflow is stifled. If it projects into the room then that's probly "n/a" anyway?



7. Is it safe to operate the stove with the doors open for short periods of time ?



if the ventilation is adequate yes. But we never do .,..



what? define "adequate"?


Must be able to calculate it.
What about a CO sensor rigged up to a motorized vent / window ?
So that if you fall asleep with the door open its not fatal !
'Twould be a nice DIY project.

Simon.

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:01:46 PM UTC+1, sm_jamieson wrote:

snip

agreed, the cost is trivial compared to the access issues (tower scaffold, cherry picker, wobbly ladder)



Surely a couple of guys on roof ladders ?

rather them than me especially if its a gable end stack...

They don't use scaffolding or a cherry picker to fit a new TV aerial.

erm... 10m of flue liner is a *little* more awkward than a 2kg TV aerial ...


Jim K

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:11:24 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:

They don't use scaffolding or a cherry picker to fit a new TV aerial.

erm... 10m of flue liner is a *little* more awkward than a 2kg TV
aerial ...

And a bit more delicate. It's quite easy to kink as you feed it up the
side of the building and over down into the chimney. If it does kink the
chances are the stresses on the join between the strips will pull them
apart, back into strip.

Ask the chap who installed our liner, twice... Well two tries, the first
wasn't very succesfull. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:09:19 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ?

Through various adjustable vents. Normally in the doors to under the
grate and at the top to provide an "air wash" down the glass in the
doors to try and keep them clean. There is no ducted air inlet on most
stoves.

I found a few on the internet. Not sure if that is compatible with the
air wash design that I believe keeps the glass clean. Also I was hoping
to get a clean burn stove so I can burn logs in a smokeless zone.

There are room sealed stoves or ones with ducted air but they aren't "the
norm".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6370269929

Thats interesting - is the flue exiting out of the rear ? I didn't
realise that could be done.

Fairly sure most stoves can top or rear exit.

I was expecting to need a dog leg flue to take the flue close enough to
the back wall.

That was the plan for that stove but there wasn't enough clearance on the
rear corner of that big stone lintel (it's 6" thick) to get the dog leg
in. TBH with the amount of crap that builds up in the bottom of the flue
I'm glad it has the bottom of the T on the rear of the stove to collect
in.

Our first child is due in October ! A very good fire guard will be
vital.

Life will never be the same... A fire guard to keep 'em away or falling
against it but let them learn, under guidance, what "hot don't touch"
means. By that I don't mean letting them touch and get burnt but to get
close and feel the heat.

The liner maker said it doesn't need insulation but the bottom of the
flue has to be cleared of a bucket full of crispy crumbly burnt tar
once a month running the stove 7 hrs/day on seasoned hardwood.

How do you do that ? Some type of brush up the flue ?

Sorry unclear description, bottom of the flue in the T piece mentioned
above. It falls down from above and collects. We do get the whole flue
swept at the start of the season but not much comes down.

But who doesn't want a crackling log now and then ?

Crackling logs, tend to spit and/or explode, sending glowing red hot
embers considerable distance... You'll see that the building regs have a
larger distance for the hearth in front of a stove than at the sides or
rear. And burn marks in the carpet in front of any stove that has been in
use for a couple of year, even without leaving the doors open.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

I guess I'll take it back to the builders opening and see what I've
got.

I guess you won't find that nice stone opening we did. That was hidden
behind this hideous monstrosity:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6189925049

This range style fire place:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6189925057

Was completely hidden behind a plain flat platerboard/stud lining. Note
the other fire opening above it at 1st floor level.

Oh I forgot to mention earlier 8 kW is quite a large stove unless you
have a large room to go with it or it has a boiler.

Have you done a rough heatloss calculation for the room? If it's a normal
sort of lounge size 8 kW is probably twice the amount of heat required
and you can't turn stoves up and down quickly like a gas or electric
fire. Our stove is 10 kW but it has a boiler and the split is 7 kW to
water and 3 kW to room. The room becomes very toasty even with the door
left open. Heat loss calcs said about 3 kW required.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 13/04/13 23:01, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44:42 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:59:31 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

snip



2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)
Yes. If the house is pre 1970 (IIRC) a flexible l;nert may be allowable,
otherwise duble layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is the
most expensive bit.
common misconception, in practice the cost of a flexible liner is not that much - a few hundred quid (in parts).

what about *double layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is
the most expensive bit.* applies in anyway to a cheap flexible liner??
Pouring the insulant down from the top doesn't locatete flue centrally,necessarily.,
but that's hardly critical is it?
Well yes actually it is, as our local fireman said when he attended the
last chimney fire in a wood stove and flexible liner equipped house
"liner was touching the brickwork, mortar we think had gone, dust and
trash in the roof space in the crack caught fire, timbers nearby caught,
and up she went'

I was the fire officer at one of my companies and spent several hours
talking to firemen about things that cause fires. My sister in laws
house burnt down. I am friends with the local volunteer fireman. I
neither take these things lightly nor for granted.

I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous. Maybe only one in a thousand will catch fire, but
the loss of your entire property which is never fully covered by
insurance in terms of irreplaceable mementoes and the like is something
I think spending a grand for a proper flue is worth doing to prevent.

And FFS get a proper newsreader that doesn't inject 4 carriage returns
for every line you type or quote.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 14/04/13 00:35, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

I guess I'll take it back to the builders opening and see what I've
got.
I guess you won't find that nice stone opening we did. That was hidden
behind this hideous monstrosity:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6189925049

This range style fire place:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6189925057

Was completely hidden behind a plain flat platerboard/stud lining. Note
the other fire opening above it at 1st floor level.

Oh I forgot to mention earlier 8 kW is quite a large stove unless you
have a large room to go with it or it has a boiler.

Have you done a rough heatloss calculation for the room? If it's a normal
sort of lounge size 8 kW is probably twice the amount of heat required
and you can't turn stoves up and down quickly like a gas or electric
fire. Our stove is 10 kW but it has a boiler and the split is 7 kW to
water and 3 kW to room. The room becomes very toasty even with the door
left open. Heat loss calcs said about 3 kW required.

10KW heats my entire 6 bedroom house.

But it takes a LONG time. Rate of rise in the sitting room with an open
fire pushing out about 10KW above the central heating is around 1 degree
C per hour..

...but the kitchen with a 600W AGA in it almost never needs CH at all.


the bedroom with an 8KW IIRC wood stove is better, as there is not much
masonry in it - mostly timber framed apart from the chimney stack - and
there isn't a big concrete floor either.

we probably damp that down to about 2KW and that gets the room warm by
about 5C in an hour. The stove and chimney area are often still warm in
the morning when we wake up, and sometimes enough embers to get going
again are still there as well.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Apr 14, 1:08 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 13/04/13 23:01, sm_jamieson wrote:

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 10:44:42 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:59:31 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

snip

2. Is a flue liner required ? Is so what type of liner (rigid / double wall / insulated etc) ? What size ? (for say, 8 kW stove)
Yes. If the house is pre 1970 (IIRC) a flexible l;nert may be allowable,
otherwise duble layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is the
most expensive bit.
common misconception, in practice the cost of a flexible liner is not that much - a few hundred quid (in parts).

what about *double layer insulated stainless sectioned liner. This is
the most expensive bit.* applies in anyway to a cheap flexible liner??

your ambiguity?
your full stop groups both kinds together.

Pouring the insulant down from the top doesn't locatete flue centrally,necessarily.,
but that's hardly critical is it?

Well yes actually it is, as our local fireman said when he attended the
last chimney fire in a wood stove and flexible liner equipped house
"liner was touching the brickwork, mortar we think had gone, dust and
trash in the roof space in the crack caught fire, timbers nearby caught,
and up she went'

"we think".....
if it was *that* critical & *that* common a problem you'd think it
would have made it into the Bldg Regs in the last 40 years? everything
else has....

I was the fire officer at one of my companies

tea boy too?

and spent several hours
talking to firemen about things that cause fires. My sister in laws
house burnt down.

that's sad. And the cause was thought to be............??

I am friends with the local volunteer fireman. I
neither take these things lightly nor for granted.

then again you do live in a house made 99% of sticks....

I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous.

yet it is an approved method in the Bldg Regs...

Maybe only one in a thousand will catch fire, but
the loss of your entire property which is never fully covered by
insurance in terms of irreplaceable mementoes and the like is something
I think spending a grand for a proper flue is worth doing to prevent.

and how would you retrofit a "proper flue" into an old chimney then??

Jim K

On Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:35:00 AM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:



I guess I'll take it back to the builders opening and see what I've

got.



I guess you won't find that nice stone opening we did. That was hidden

behind this hideous monstrosity:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6189925049



This range style fire place:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/6189925057



Was completely hidden behind a plain flat platerboard/stud lining. Note

the other fire opening above it at 1st floor level.



Oh I forgot to mention earlier 8 kW is quite a large stove unless you

have a large room to go with it or it has a boiler.



Have you done a rough heatloss calculation for the room? If it's a normal

sort of lounge size 8 kW is probably twice the amount of heat required

and you can't turn stoves up and down quickly like a gas or electric

fire. Our stove is 10 kW but it has a boiler and the split is 7 kW to

water and 3 kW to room. The room becomes very toasty even with the door

left open. Heat loss calcs said about 3 kW required.



Oh I've probably overspec'd by miles then, since this is not a primary source of heating. I'd just make sure the radiator TRV is working !

Simon.

"How do you do that ? Some type of brush up the flue ? ".

If it can be arranged, and you are using a back, rather than top, exit
from the stove, do a soot trap at the bottom of the flu that leads to
an external trap for soot removal.
Rob

In message ,
sm_jamieson writes
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:21:32 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:



1. Assuming a non-balanced flue stove, where is the air drawn in ?

Through various adjustable vents. Normally in the doors to under the
grate and at the top to provide an "air wash" down the glass in the doors
to try and keep them clean. There is no ducted air inlet on most stoves.


I found a few on the internet. Not sure if that is compatible with the
air wash design that I believe keeps the glass clean.
Also I was hoping to get a clean burn stove so I can burn logs in a
smokeless zone. The bloke up the road gets away with it but the maximum
fine is 1000 quid.

Have a look at the Clearview range. Airwash, clean burn and under floor
air duct.

You still get black glass if you shut them down completely overnight.

I think you need 12" of non combustible hearth in front of the fire
opening.

Building Control can sign off a d-i-y installation.

I would insulate the flue unless you can use the twin wall that Harry
mentioned.

Our 12kW version uses a garden barrow full of wood in 24 hours so don't
expect to save money over gas CH.

--
Tim Lamb

On Sunday 14 April 2013 01:08 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:


I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous.

Unless the old chimney is dripping with tar I fail to see why?

Sure, the liner radiates a lot of heat[1], but I would be very impressed if
that managed to cause hot jets of gas to blast through gaps in the mortar
and still be hot enough to cause combustion.

[1] Which I regard as a good thing - it puts heat into the core of a huge
lump of masonry right in the centre of my house which gives some background
heat to other parts and acts as a buffer.

Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on seeing
the chimney.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:01:10 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:
snip

As a matter of interest, what is required to safely resurrect an open
fire that was last used about 40 years ago ?
Is a "chimney sweep" allowed to just check the draw and make sure the
chimney won't catch fire ?
Are you supposed to have a liner and use a hetas engineer ?
Anyway, I guess a liner would be a good idea as the original lime mortar
might be a bit leaky.

Simon.

As far as I know there isn't any requirement for open fires.

Sensible to get it swept.

If it hasn't been used for 40 years then also sensible to have a smoke
test to confirm no leaks - at my MILs the smoke bomb showed smoke coming
out in between the bricks of the chimney.

I hadn't considered fitting a liner for an open fire - not sure how you
would terminate it above the fireplace.

My thought would be to have the chimney checked by a sweep.
If it appears sound then you are good to go.
If it appears unsound and needs a liner then I would fit some kind of
stove; not much extra cost after the liner and a much more efficient
source of heat.

Cheers

Dave R

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On Sunday 14 April 2013 01:08 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:


I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous.

Unless the old chimney is dripping with tar I fail to see why?

Sure, the liner radiates a lot of heat[1], but I would be very impressed if
that managed to cause hot jets of gas to blast through gaps in the mortar
and still be hot enough to cause combustion.

[1] Which I regard as a good thing - it puts heat into the core of a huge
lump of masonry right in the centre of my house which gives some background
heat to other parts and acts as a buffer.

Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on seeing
the chimney.

I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner. The insulated twin wall is sectional and costs several arms
and legs. SS twin wall is little thicker than single but the inner
scroll is lapped so that condensate can't penetrate. There is a little
arrow to show which way is *up*.




--
Tim Lamb

On Sunday 14 April 2013 19:39 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On Sunday 14 April 2013 01:08 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:


I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous.

Unless the old chimney is dripping with tar I fail to see why?

Sure, the liner radiates a lot of heat[1], but I would be very impressed
if that managed to cause hot jets of gas to blast through gaps in the
mortar and still be hot enough to cause combustion.

[1] Which I regard as a good thing - it puts heat into the core of a huge
lump of masonry right in the centre of my house which gives some
background heat to other parts and acts as a buffer.

Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on
seeing the chimney.

I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner.

If it was double, it didn;t look like it. How thick is double skin? Less
than a cm?

The insulated twin wall is sectional and costs several arms
and legs. SS twin wall is little thicker than single but the inner
scroll is lapped so that condensate can't penetrate. There is a little
arrow to show which way is *up*.




--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On 14/04/13 21:59, Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 14 April 2013 19:39 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On Sunday 14 April 2013 01:08 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:


I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous.
Unless the old chimney is dripping with tar I fail to see why?

Sure, the liner radiates a lot of heat[1], but I would be very impressed
if that managed to cause hot jets of gas to blast through gaps in the
mortar and still be hot enough to cause combustion.

[1] Which I regard as a good thing - it puts heat into the core of a huge
lump of masonry right in the centre of my house which gives some
background heat to other parts and acts as a buffer.

Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on
seeing the chimney.
I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner.
If it was double, it didn;t look like it. How thick is double skin? Less
than a cm?

more like 4-6cm

http://www.1stsuppliesscot.co.uk/139-tees#

The insulated twin wall is sectional and costs several arms
and legs. SS twin wall is little thicker than single but the inner
scroll is lapped so that condensate can't penetrate. There is a little
arrow to show which way is *up*.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 14/04/2013 19:39, Tim Lamb wrote:


I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner. The insulated twin wall is sectional and costs several arms
and legs. SS twin wall is little thicker than single but the inner
scroll is lapped so that condensate can't penetrate. There is a little
arrow to show which way is *up*.

Someone I know had a stove installed and the idiots who did it managed
to do so with the arrows the wrong way up! What realistic difference is
it likely to make? (Only for interest - not currently in contact with
the person.)

--
Rod

On Sunday 14 April 2013 22:05 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 14/04/13 21:59, Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 14 April 2013 19:39 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On Sunday 14 April 2013 01:08 The Natural Philosopher wrote in
uk.d-i-y:


I regard a flexible liner in an old chimney with suspect mortar joints
as frankly dangerous.
Unless the old chimney is dripping with tar I fail to see why?

Sure, the liner radiates a lot of heat[1], but I would be very
impressed if that managed to cause hot jets of gas to blast through
gaps in the mortar and still be hot enough to cause combustion.

[1] Which I regard as a good thing - it puts heat into the core of a
[huge
lump of masonry right in the centre of my house which gives some
background heat to other parts and acts as a buffer.

Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on
seeing the chimney.
I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner.
If it was double, it didn;t look like it. How thick is double skin? Less
than a cm?

more like 4-6cm

Mine is single skin which is what I thought.

Before anyone argues, I trust the installer.


-
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On Sunday 14 April 2013 19:39 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:
Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on
seeing the chimney.

I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner.

If it was double, it didn;t look like it. How thick is double skin? Less
than a cm?

Yes. 5mm at a guess.


--
Tim Lamb

In message , polygonum
writes
On 14/04/2013 19:39, Tim Lamb wrote:


I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner. The insulated twin wall is sectional and costs several arms
and legs. SS twin wall is little thicker than single but the inner
scroll is lapped so that condensate can't penetrate. There is a little
arrow to show which way is *up*.

Someone I know had a stove installed and the idiots who did it managed
to do so with the arrows the wrong way up! What realistic difference is
it likely to make? (Only for interest - not currently in contact with
the person.)

I have a *left-over* length if anyone wants to experiment:-)

I think the idea is than any liquid tars condensing in the flue will
trickle back down to the fire rather than finding their way through the
liner and into the flue proper.

I guess condensing tars will depend on fuel, combustion temp. length of
flue etc.


--
Tim Lamb

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:48:28 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

If it was double, it didn;t look like it. How thick is double skin?
Less than a cm?

more like 4-6cm

Mine is single skin which is what I thought.

The sectional, mineral wool insulated. liner has 4 to 6 cm wall
thickness.

The flexable twin wall liner is less than a cm thick, maybe less than 5
mm.

The flexable twin wall stuff does look like single wall at a casual
glance.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:09:50 +0100, polygonum wrote:

SS twin wall is little thicker than single but the inner scroll is
lapped so that condensate can't penetrate. There is a little
arrow to show which way is *up*.

Someone I know had a stove installed and the idiots who did it managed
to do so with the arrows the wrong way up! What realistic difference is
it likely to make?

As above the over lap of the strip making up the liner is such that when
fitted the right way up any condensate flows down the inside of the
liner. Fit it the wrong way up any condesate may flow out of the liner:


| Top | | Top |
| | | |
\ / || ||
\ / V || ||
|| || / \
|| || / \
| | | |
| | | |


The join between the strips is not that simple, they interlock, but there
is still a risk that the condensate will seep out.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday 15 April 2013 08:28 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On Sunday 14 April 2013 19:39 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:
Mine is a single skin SS liner installed in a brick flue by a HETAS
installer, with no vermiculite. Obviously his judgement was based on
seeing the chimney.

I don't think you are allowed to use single skin for an enclosed
woodburner.

If it was double, it didn;t look like it. How thick is double skin? Less
than a cm?

Yes. 5mm at a guess.



That's plausible then. I didn;t ask...


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet