OT Search and Rescue
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
All that shows is how little you know about alcoholism. It's mainly a
mental illness, sufferers can't work out what it's costing them in
either money or opportunity. He's been through three rehab courses that
I know of, none of whih made any difference.

He can't have yet got to the point where he accepts his condition. That he
is an alcoholic - ie powerless over alcohol. And that there is no cure -
it will need continuous treatment for the rest of his life in the form of
aftercare. Which in practice for most means regular AA meetings. And even
then, success isn't guaranteed.

It is an addiction, both mental and physical, that is, by and large,
socially acceptable.

Quite. Politicians try to control other drugs by attempting to restrict
the supply. Yet make alcohol more and more freely available. Something not
quite logical there.

Politicians actually try to restrict the availability of alcohol but
their options are limited because it has such a hold on our society.
Large numbers of people are addicted to alcohol - not the same as being
alcoholics.
--
bert

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 30/03/2013 23:27, robgraham wrote:
On Mar 27, 8:57 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 23:48:47 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
The privatised firm will be able to get ex-military pilots at the
moment. But when the supply of them runs out,

So the military are not going to fly any helicopters at all?

... who will pay for the cost of training new pilots?

We will, as is the case now. The path the money takes is just a bit
different.

--
Cheers
Dave.

I think the point is that currently there are RAF helicopter pilots
and related teams who have developed particular skills in flying
rescue work. These may well now trasfer in one way or another to
Bristow. That will work for the short term but the future services'
helicopter pilots will not be specialised in SAR. so there will be a
training short fall.
Rob

Bristow are well experienced at SAR, with over 15,000 missions flown in
the UK alone. They are quite capable of training their own pilots.

Colin Bignell

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 31/03/2013 10:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
All that shows is how little you know about alcoholism. It's mainly a
mental illness, sufferers can't work out what it's costing them in
either money or opportunity. He's been through three rehab courses that
I know of, none of whih made any difference.

He can't have yet got to the point where he accepts his condition. That he
is an alcoholic - ie powerless over alcohol. And that there is no cure -
it will need continuous treatment for the rest of his life in the form of
aftercare. Which in practice for most means regular AA meetings. And even
then, success isn't guaranteed.

*I* know this, *you* know this....

Help will be made available as soon as he asks for it. Until then, he
rejects even mild disapproval of his habit.

It is an addiction, both mental and physical, that is, by and large,
socially acceptable.

Quite. Politicians try to control other drugs by attempting to restrict
the supply. Yet make alcohol more and more freely available. Something not
quite logical there.

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
bert ] wrote:
Large numbers of people are addicted to alcohol - not the same as being
alcoholics.

Please explain how you can be addicted to alcohol but not an alcoholic?

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 31/03/2013 10:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
All that shows is how little you know about alcoholism. It's mainly a
mental illness, sufferers can't work out what it's costing them in
either money or opportunity. He's been through three rehab courses
that I know of, none of whih made any difference.

He can't have yet got to the point where he accepts his condition.
That he is an alcoholic - ie powerless over alcohol. And that there
is no cure - it will need continuous treatment for the rest of his
life in the form of aftercare. Which in practice for most means
regular AA meetings. And even then, success isn't guaranteed.

*I* know this, *you* know this....

Help will be made available as soon as he asks for it. Until then, he
rejects even mild disapproval of his habit.

Then there was absolutely no point in wasting money on all those re-habs.

It is an addiction, both mental and physical, that is, by and large,
socially acceptable.

Quite. Politicians try to control other drugs by attempting to
restrict the supply. Yet make alcohol more and more freely available.
Something not quite logical there.

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 30/03/2013 23:16, robgraham wrote:
On Mar 26, 7:33 pm, Nightjar
wrote:
On 26/03/2013 18:42, Tim+ wrote:









Nightjar wrote:
On 26/03/2013 17:12, Tim+ wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 26/03/2013 16:41, harry wrote:
On Mar 26, 4:37 pm, Nightjar
wrote:
On 26/03/2013 16:21, harry wrote:

Latest thing to be sold off, search and rescue.
Sign the e-petition here about this matter.

https://submissions.epetitions.direc...etitions/45283

HM Coastguard runs the ones around here and AIUI, they will oversee the
new service in much the same way. Personally, in times when the
Services' budget is being cut, I would rather see what money there is
going to equip the troops on the front lines. It is not as if we need to
get a lot of downed pilots out of The Channel these days.

Colin Bignell

Tch. The service is for ANYONE in trouble on land or sea.
They fly in all weathers,sea rescue, mountain rescue civilians
military etc.

Exactly, so what particular reason is there for the SAR to be a military
operation? As I said, the Coastguard do it around here and the Police
helicopter also does searches.

Colin Bignell

Because the military will fly in conditions that would make any civilian
pilot's hair curl.

Where do you think the Police and Coastguard hire their pilots?

Colin Bignell

Do they fly under the same H&S regs? I strongly suspect military pilots
have more leeway.

The rules are set by the CAA and a Police Operator's Licence probably
gives more leeway than military pilots have in civil airspace, although
most rules can be overridden by the need to save life.

Colin Bignell

Like the poor woman who fell down a mine shaft in Lanarkshire and the
fire brigade couldn't go down for her because of H & S Rules - after
6 hours they got the MR team or cavers to go for her but she died as
they got to her.


Usually in such cases, it is not H&S that prevent them helping, but
somebody's misinterpretation of H&S. The HSE frequently emphasises the
need for common sense and keeping a sense of proportion in applying H&S
rules.

Colin Bignell

OT Search and Rescue
 

In message , Nightjar
writes
On 30/03/2013 23:16, robgraham wrote:
On Mar 26, 7:33 pm, Nightjar
wrote:
On 26/03/2013 18:42, Tim+ wrote:









Nightjar wrote:
On 26/03/2013 17:12, Tim+ wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 26/03/2013 16:41, harry wrote:
On Mar 26, 4:37 pm, Nightjar
wrote:
On 26/03/2013 16:21, harry wrote:

Latest thing to be sold off, search and rescue.
Sign the e-petition here about this matter.

https://submissions.epetitions.direc...etitions/45283

HM Coastguard runs the ones around here and AIUI, they will
oversee the
new service in much the same way. Personally, in times when the
Services' budget is being cut, I would rather see what money there is
going to equip the troops on the front lines. It is not as if
we need to
get a lot of downed pilots out of The Channel these days.

Colin Bignell

Tch. The service is for ANYONE in trouble on land or sea.
They fly in all weathers,sea rescue, mountain rescue civilians
military etc.

Exactly, so what particular reason is there for the SAR to be a military
operation? As I said, the Coastguard do it around here and the Police
helicopter also does searches.

Colin Bignell

Because the military will fly in conditions that would make any civilian
pilot's hair curl.

Where do you think the Police and Coastguard hire their pilots?

Colin Bignell

Do they fly under the same H&S regs? I strongly suspect military pilots
have more leeway.

The rules are set by the CAA and a Police Operator's Licence probably
gives more leeway than military pilots have in civil airspace, although
most rules can be overridden by the need to save life.

Colin Bignell

Like the poor woman who fell down a mine shaft in Lanarkshire and the
fire brigade couldn't go down for her because of H & S Rules - after
6 hours they got the MR team or cavers to go for her but she died as
they got to her.


Usually in such cases, it is not H&S that prevent them helping, but
somebody's misinterpretation of H&S. The HSE frequently emphasises the
need for common sense and keeping a sense of proportion in applying H&S
rules.

Colin Bignell
It seems to be more the fear of litigation and blame claim. The answer
is in the hands of the courts in the level of awards and the awarding of
costs.
--
bert

OT Search and Rescue
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert ] wrote:
Large numbers of people are addicted to alcohol - not the same as being
alcoholics.

Please explain how you can be addicted to alcohol but not an alcoholic?

It's already been explained earlier in this thread.
--
bert

OT Search and Rescue
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 31/03/2013 10:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
All that shows is how little you know about alcoholism. It's mainly a
mental illness, sufferers can't work out what it's costing them in
either money or opportunity. He's been through three rehab courses
that I know of, none of whih made any difference.

He can't have yet got to the point where he accepts his condition.
That he is an alcoholic - ie powerless over alcohol. And that there
is no cure - it will need continuous treatment for the rest of his
life in the form of aftercare. Which in practice for most means
regular AA meetings. And even then, success isn't guaranteed.

*I* know this, *you* know this....

Help will be made available as soon as he asks for it. Until then, he
rejects even mild disapproval of his habit.

Then there was absolutely no point in wasting money on all those re-habs.

It is an addiction, both mental and physical, that is, by and large,
socially acceptable.

Quite. Politicians try to control other drugs by attempting to
restrict the supply. Yet make alcohol more and more freely available.
Something not quite logical there.

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You asked
me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.
--
bert

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
bert ] wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert ] wrote:
Large numbers of people are addicted to alcohol - not the same as
being alcoholics.

Please explain how you can be addicted to alcohol but not an alcoholic?

It's already been explained earlier in this thread.

Really? Perhaps you'd clarify things.

--
*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
bert ] wrote:
Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You asked
me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.

I obviously don't. That's why I was asking you to explain the difference.
it could be very interesting.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

I get bored sat in the house.

Plenty to do here.

Don't worry, benefits are to be cut, this won't happen in the future.

If that happens I'll stop being self employed and sign on or the
Parkinsons will get worse...

--
Cheers
Dave.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Apr 1, 12:14*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *bert ] wrote:

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You asked
me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.

I obviously don't. That's why I was asking you to explain the difference.
it could be very interesting.


As I understand it, you can be addicted.
Later you can be physically damaged when you are said to be an
alcoholic. (Liver and stuff)
He's right, there is a difference, I might have got it a bit wrong.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article
,
harry wrote:
On Apr 1, 12:14 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
bert ] wrote:

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You
asked me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.

I obviously don't. That's why I was asking you to explain the
difference. it could be very interesting.


As I understand it, you can be addicted.
Later you can be physically damaged when you are said to be an
alcoholic. (Liver and stuff)

You can have physical damage from alcohol without being addicted to it.
Plenty of kids are killed by it long before addiction would have set in.

Similarly, not all addicts have organ damage. Oh - the liver is one of the
few organs of the body which can repair itself once the cause of the
damage is removed.

He's right, there is a difference, I might have got it a bit wrong.

There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of those
dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.

--
*I didn't like my beard at first. Then it grew on me.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

harry writes:

On Mar 26, 5:13=A0pm, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 26/03/2013 16:58, Nightjar wrote:

On 26/03/2013 16:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
=A0 =A0 Nightjar wrote:
HM Coastguard runs the ones around here and AIUI, they will oversee t=
he
new service in much the same way. Personally, in times when the
Services' budget is being cut, I would rather see what money there is
going to equip the troops on the front lines.

It still makes sense to be able to do military search and rescue though.
Domestic SAR work provides very realistic training.

As I understood it, they were paid to provide the service.

The problem is that, if they were to continue to do it, they would need
to replace their ageing fleet of helicopters and SAR helicopters are
fairly specialised bits of kit.

Colin Bignell

So to avoid that short term hardware cost and retaining trained SAR
teams we outsource it and get royally ripped off in the longer term
losing most of our military SAR capability too. How very clever :(

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

That about sums up political thinking these days.
The sort of thinking that got us in the electricity mess we are in
right now.

The privatised firm will be able to get ex-military pilots at the
moment. But when the supply of them runs out, who will pay for the
cost of training new pilots?

We would see the company or companies providing young 'fully-trained'
replacements who after a 6 month cram course might have four hundred
hours' flying experience. This to be shortly followed by a series of
fatal accidents.

Which would of course prove that people should not get into
difficulties in the first place. Any minister would tell us that.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
@ O n e t e l
. c o m

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 01/04/2013 11:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:
On Apr 1, 12:14 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
bert ] wrote:

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You
asked me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.

I obviously don't. That's why I was asking you to explain the
difference. it could be very interesting.


As I understand it, you can be addicted.
Later you can be physically damaged when you are said to be an
alcoholic. (Liver and stuff)

You can have physical damage from alcohol without being addicted to it.
Plenty of kids are killed by it long before addiction would have set in.

Similarly, not all addicts have organ damage. Oh - the liver is one of the
few organs of the body which can repair itself once the cause of the
damage is removed.

He's right, there is a difference, I might have got it a bit wrong.

There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of those
dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.


IME (which is depressingly extensive) those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn. It just seems to go on until something bad
happens. Or AA. Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

Rob

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 12:04:45 +0100, RJH wrote:

On 01/04/2013 11:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of those
dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.

Agreed.

IME (which is depressingly extensive)

As is mine.

those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn. It just seems to go on until something bad
happens. Or AA. Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

Or, alternatively, they come to accept that they're addicted but have
no intention of doing anything about it, resent any attempt at
interference or even just advice for their own benefit, and drink
and/or smoke themselves into an early grave.
--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
RJH wrote:
There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of
those dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.


IME (which is depressingly extensive) those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn. It just seems to go on until something bad
happens. Or AA. Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

If someone is in total denial, nothing.
If you could persuade him to attend some AA meetings - perhaps going with
him to open ones - some of the things he hears there may sink in and
convince him otherwise. But since he's already been to rehab, I doubt it
will.

--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 12:04:45 +0100, RJH wrote:

There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of
those dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as
alcoholics.

Those dependant on alcohol do not think they have a problem and will deny
it until they reach rock bottom. Like a fatal, to some one else, road
accident, losing their job, losing their family.

IME (which is depressingly extensive) those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn.

The use of the word "binge" isn't quite right in this context. We aren't
talking about the people who go out on Friday/Saturday night and get
plastered to the point of alcohol poisioning then don't touch drop for
the rest of the week.

We are talking about people who will put a shot of whiskey in the first
cup of coffee of the day, or just fore go the coffee and have a double...
Then quietly get through the rest of the bottle (or two or three) during
the rest of the day.

It just seems to go on until something bad happens.

Agreed, I've seen happen a few times and no matter what you tell 'em,
even extremely straight and to the point they will deny it. Dependancy
creeps up on you.

Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

Unfortunately I don't think there is, they have to find the bottom.

--
Cheers
Dave.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 01/04/2013 12:33, Java Jive wrote:
Or, alternatively, they come to accept that they're addicted but have
no intention of doing anything about it, resent any attempt at
interference or even just advice for their own benefit, and drink
and/or smoke themselves into an early grave.

Ding! We have a winner...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 27/03/2013 10:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're like a stuck needle. Perhaps you'd inform us all how communal
services are to be paid for without taxes?


The same way as they are paid for in Greece?

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 01/04/2013 13:57, John Williamson wrote:
On 01/04/2013 12:33, Java Jive wrote:
Or, alternatively, they come to accept that they're addicted but have
no intention of doing anything about it, resent any attempt at
interference or even just advice for their own benefit, and drink
and/or smoke themselves into an early grave.

Ding! We have a winner...


I take your points, and perhaps wish I could be more emphatic and 'tough
love' about it.

I do believe in some cases there are deep-seated issues that need to be
resolved before an alcoholic stops being an alcoholic. Actually, I don't
know. Been round in circles with this many times!

Rob

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 01/04/2013 13:44, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 12:04:45 +0100, RJH wrote:

There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of
those dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as
alcoholics.

Those dependant on alcohol do not think they have a problem and will deny
it until they reach rock bottom. Like a fatal, to some one else, road
accident, losing their job, losing their family.

IME (which is depressingly extensive) those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn.

The use of the word "binge" isn't quite right in this context. We aren't
talking about the people who go out on Friday/Saturday night and get
plastered to the point of alcohol poisioning then don't touch drop for
the rest of the week.

We are talking about people who will put a shot of whiskey in the first
cup of coffee of the day, or just fore go the coffee and have a double...
Then quietly get through the rest of the bottle (or two or three) during
the rest of the day.

It just seems to go on until something bad happens.

Agreed, I've seen happen a few times and no matter what you tell 'em,
even extremely straight and to the point they will deny it. Dependancy
creeps up on you.

Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

Unfortunately I don't think there is, they have to find the bottom.


Yes, well put. Rob

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 01/04/2013 12:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
RJH wrote:
There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of
those dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.


IME (which is depressingly extensive) those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn. It just seems to go on until something bad
happens. Or AA. Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

If someone is in total denial, nothing.
If you could persuade him to attend some AA meetings - perhaps going with
him to open ones - some of the things he hears there may sink in and
convince him otherwise. But since he's already been to rehab, I doubt it
will.


Yes, good points.

Rob

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 01/04/2013 12:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
RJH wrote:
There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of
those dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.


IME (which is depressingly extensive) those around alcoholics are also
in denial, as each binge is the last, and each lull in drinking is
celebrated as a new dawn. It just seems to go on until something bad
happens. Or AA. Wish I could think of a quick way on this one.

If someone is in total denial, nothing.
If you could persuade him to attend some AA meetings - perhaps going with
him to open ones - some of the things he hears there may sink in and
convince him otherwise. But since he's already been to rehab, I doubt it
will.

A number of years ago, a consultant I worked with had a drink problem.
Used the hip-flask surreptitiously round the office. Drove to town one
evening/night. Crashed into another car and wrote it off - claimed the
other car would have been fine were it not a pile of junk - so couldn't
be his fault. Lost consultancy contract with immediate effect. Done for
drunken driving (massively over limit) - third offence. Gaoled. Wife and
family washed hands of him. Died inside after a few weeks/months.

A sad waste.

--
Rod

OT Search and Rescue
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert ] wrote:
Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You asked
me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.

I obviously don't. That's why I was asking you to explain the difference.
it could be very interesting.

The what do you mean when you refer to MPs as being alcohol dependent?
--
bert

OT Search and Rescue
 

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article
,
harry wrote:
On Apr 1, 12:14 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
bert ] wrote:

Maybe a lot of politicians are alcohol dependant?

At least as high as the average.

Which as I said earlier is not the same as being an alcoholic. You
asked me to explain the difference - but you obviously must know.

I obviously don't. That's why I was asking you to explain the
difference. it could be very interesting.


As I understand it, you can be addicted.
Later you can be physically damaged when you are said to be an
alcoholic. (Liver and stuff)

You can have physical damage from alcohol without being addicted to it.
Plenty of kids are killed by it long before addiction would have set in.

Similarly, not all addicts have organ damage. Oh - the liver is one of the
few organs of the body which can repair itself once the cause of the
damage is removed.

He's right, there is a difference, I might have got it a bit wrong.

There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of those
dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.

Alcoholism is a broad term for problems with alcohol, and is generally
used to mean compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcoholic
beverages, usually to the detriment of the drinker's health, personal
relationships, and social standing. It is medically considered a
disease, specifically an addictive illness, and in psychiatry several
other terms are used, specifically "alcohol abuse" and "alcohol
dependence," which have slightly different definitions
--
bert

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
RJH wrote:
I do believe in some cases there are deep-seated issues that need to be
resolved before an alcoholic stops being an alcoholic. Actually, I don't
know. Been round in circles with this many times!

'Alcohol has little to do with being an alcoholic' is a common enough
sound bite. It means there is generally more to someone becoming addicted
than just the drug itself.

Another one is the average addict considers himself 'a piece of **** the
world revolves around' - in other words has secretly very low self esteem,
but doesn't show this to others, indeed hiding it by being very self
centred.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Apr 2, 12:33*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *RJH wrote:

I do believe in some cases there are deep-seated issues that need to be
resolved before an alcoholic stops being an alcoholic. Actually, I don't
know. Been round in circles with this many times!

'Alcohol has little to do with being an alcoholic' is a common enough
sound bite. It means there is generally more to someone becoming addicted
than just the drug itself.

Another one is the average addict considers himself 'a piece of **** the
world revolves around' - in other words has secretly very low self esteem,
but doesn't show this to others, indeed hiding it by being very self
centred.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.
When I was a teenager we couldn't afford beer.
They start young these days.

They should just let pubs sell alcohol.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 2, 12:33*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *RJH wrote:

I do believe in some cases there are deep-seated issues that need to be
resolved before an alcoholic stops being an alcoholic. Actually, I don't
know. Been round in circles with this many times!

'Alcohol has little to do with being an alcoholic' is a common enough
sound bite. It means there is generally more to someone becoming addicted
than just the drug itself.

Another one is the average addict considers himself 'a piece of **** the
world revolves around' - in other words has secretly very low self esteem,
but doesn't show this to others, indeed hiding it by being very self
centred.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.
When I was a teenager we couldn't afford beer.
They start young these days.

They should just let pubs sell alcohol.

Or outlets that don't need to use it as a loss leader.

Gaymers *old English cider* 7.5% when I was an impoverished youth.
--
Tim Lamb

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
bert ] wrote:
There is no difference. The definition of alcoholic is one addicted to
alcohol, or, if you prefer, dependant on it. But of course many of those
dependant on alcohol may not *think* of themselves as alcoholics.

Alcoholism is a broad term for problems with alcohol, and is generally
used to mean compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcoholic
beverages, usually to the detriment of the drinker's health, personal
relationships, and social standing. It is medically considered a
disease, specifically an addictive illness, and in psychiatry several
other terms are used, specifically "alcohol abuse" and "alcohol
dependence," which have slightly different definitions

So called professionals love to give things different names. Which may, or
may not, mean something to them.

Alcoholic is just fine for those addicted to alcohol. And, of course, many
who are simply won't admit it so want a different name. It's called denial.

If it helps an alcoholic to come to terms with his condition to call it a
disease or illness, that's fair enough. Personally I don't think it
matters much. But it can help to think of it like a medical condition
which if left unchecked will kill, but with proper treatment can be
controlled and allow the person to lead a normal life. The control
consists of total abstinence, and changing the behaviour which caused the
person to become addicted in the first place.

--
*Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article
,
harry wrote:
I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.
When I was a teenager we couldn't afford beer.
They start young these days.

Supermarkets don't sell other drugs, yet people get addicted to those. You
can't control drug use by trying controlling the supply, as has been
proved everywhere.

They should just let pubs sell alcohol.

--
*Young at heart -- slightly older in other places

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:05:35 -0000, Nightjar wrote:

On 29/03/2013 09:21, soup wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

Strange that considering I was told by someone on here yesyerday that
it was run by a charity/charities

Mountain rescue teams, lifeboats etc are run by charities but this
is for the military run SAR you know sea kings/nimrods etc, whose
primary role was retrieval of downed military pilots, civilian SAR was
a (very important) sideshoot to this role.


ASIDE:-
Are the coastgaurd considered as governmental or are they a charity
run thing?


It is currently part of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, which is
part of the Department for Transport, although it has been handed around
a number of different Ministries and Departments since the Board of
Trade took it over from the Admiralty in 1923. Its origins were as part
of HM Customs. They have had sub-contracted SAR helicopters at four
bases for quite some time now.

The Coastguard Rescue Service, which does cliff, swift water and mud
rescue and searches for missing people is a volunteer body within HM
Coastguard.

Indeed, so why should we expect search and rescue to be paid for by taxes?

--
On going to war over religion:
You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend. -- Richard Jeni

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:34:43 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 30/03/2013 23:16, robgraham wrote:
On Mar 26, 7:33 pm, Nightjar
wrote:
On 26/03/2013 18:42, Tim+ wrote:









Nightjar wrote:
On 26/03/2013 17:12, Tim+ wrote:


















Where do you think the Police and Coastguard hire their pilots?

Colin Bignell

Do they fly under the same H&S regs? I strongly suspect military pilots
have more leeway.

The rules are set by the CAA and a Police Operator's Licence probably
gives more leeway than military pilots have in civil airspace, although
most rules can be overridden by the need to save life.

Colin Bignell

Like the poor woman who fell down a mine shaft in Lanarkshire and the
fire brigade couldn't go down for her because of H & S Rules - after
6 hours they got the MR team or cavers to go for her but she died as
they got to her.


Usually in such cases, it is not H&S that prevent them helping, but
somebody's misinterpretation of H&S. The HSE frequently emphasises the
need for common sense and keeping a sense of proportion in applying H&S
rules.

Common sense would be ignoring HSE altogether.

--
How much deeper would the ocean be if sponges didn't grow in it?

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:15:10 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.

Supermarkets don't sell other drugs, yet people get addicted to those.

Er, tobacco?

I suppose tea and coffee have addictive drugs in them too - but you know
what I meant. ;-)

But you do make a point which puzzles me. Smoking may be a nasty habit
that annoys many, and can damage health too. But those under the influence
of nicotine don't generally go around causing mayhem - as so often happens
with alcohol.

Tobacco sales are actively discouraged in supermarkets - presumably to
protect youngsters etc - yet alcohol is openly on display and not even
just confined to the alcohol section.

--
*Jokes about German sausage are the wurst.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:15:10 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.

Supermarkets don't sell other drugs, yet people get addicted to those.

Er, tobacco?

--
Cheers
Dave.

OT Search and Rescue
 

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:15:10 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.

Supermarkets don't sell other drugs, yet people get addicted to those.

Er, tobacco?

I suppose tea and coffee have addictive drugs in them too - but you know
what I meant. ;-)

But you do make a point which puzzles me. Smoking may be a nasty habit
that annoys many, and can damage health too. But those under the influence
of nicotine don't generally go around causing mayhem - as so often happens
with alcohol.

Tobacco sales are actively discouraged in supermarkets - presumably to
protect youngsters etc - yet alcohol is openly on display and not even
just confined to the alcohol section.

in England - but not Scotland where products containing alcohol cannot be
displayed in the general aisles or in the petrol sales shop at the front.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Monday, April 1, 2013 6:57:50 PM UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 01/04/2013 13:57, John Williamson wrote:

On 01/04/2013 12:33, Java Jive wrote:

Or, alternatively, they come to accept that they're addicted but have

no intention of doing anything about it, resent any attempt at

interference or even just advice for their own benefit, and drink

and/or smoke themselves into an early grave.



Ding! We have a winner...





I take your points, and perhaps wish I could be more emphatic and 'tough

love' about it.



I do believe in some cases there are deep-seated issues that need to be

resolved before an alcoholic stops being an alcoholic.

I don;t think you can be cured of being an alcoholic, you can stop an alcoholic drinking but not stop them being an alcoholic because if they drink again chances are they'll be back on the alcohol.


Actually, I don't

know. Been round in circles with this many times!



Rob

OT Search and Rescue
 

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:56:06 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Supermarkets don't sell other drugs, yet people get addicted to
those.

Er, tobacco?

I suppose tea and coffee have addictive drugs in them too - but you
know what I meant. ;-)

And Nutmeg...

But you do make a point which puzzles me. Smoking may be a nasty habit
that annoys many, and can damage health too. But those under the
influence of nicotine don't generally go around causing mayhem - as so
often happens with alcohol.

Tobacco sales are actively discouraged in supermarkets - presumably to
protect youngsters etc - yet alcohol is openly on display and not even
just confined to the alcohol section.

Don't try an work out any logic, there isn't any.

--
Cheers
Dave.

OT Search and Rescue
 

On 02/04/2013 08:05, harry wrote:
....
I think the whole problem has got a lot worse since supermarkets and
booze shops started selling it cheap.
When I was a teenager we couldn't afford beer.
They start young these days.

They should just let pubs sell alcohol.

Not sure what good that would do; I started drinking in a pub at age 15.

Colin Bignell