Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Or do I have to have a patent :-(

--
Adrian C

On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:05:44 PM UTC, Adrian C wrote:

Me, mad?
On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.
So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?
Or do I have to have a patent :-(

Once you show a product in public it can no longer be patented in the uk. Rules are different for the US.


NT

wrote:

Once you show a product in public it can no longer be patented in the uk.

AFAIK you have to be specific about how a device works to get a patent,
but if the same "thing" can be achieved in a different way, that way can
be patented instead by someone else. So unless you can publicly reveal
a novel and necessary aspect of your invention as prior art, you
probably can't queer the pitch for everyone else.

On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:14:20 PM UTC, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:05:44 PM UTC, Adrian C wrote:



Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},

and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these

items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could

everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,

expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there

want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is

some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out

of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this

successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed

with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Or do I have to have a patent :-(



Once you show a product in public it can no longer be patented in the uk. Rules are different for the US.


Except that the patent examiner might not be aware of your disclosure and might grant someone else (who has thought of it independently) a patent. Then you still have a legal battle on your hands when you start making the item and the patent holder tries to defend his patent against you.

Ideally you need to publish in a way that it will stand a good chance of being found if the examiner does a search.

On 11/12/2012 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Or do I have to have a patent :-(


Simples! Publish the idea somewhere, along with any potentially
innovative variations.

On 11/12/2012 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't
say}, and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads
of these items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so
could everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go
to time, expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others
out there want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do
care about is some toerag registering the patent for themselves and
doing us all out of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has
this successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's
column armed with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Or do I have to have a patent :-(

US says:

Defensive Disclosure Law & Legal Definition

With respect to Patent law, defensive disclosure is a publication of
details that are made deliberately about an invention to render it prior
art and thereby precluding others from getting a patent on the same
invention. Defensive disclosure can be made by filing for public
disclosure through the Statutory Invention Registration and publishing
the abstract in the Official Gazette of the U.S. Patent and Trademark
Office. This can also be done privately by publishing it in an
independent journal that will probably be consulted by a patent
examiner. Once this becomes published, it precludes issuance of a patent
on that invention.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/defensive-disclosure/

--
Rod

On 11/12/12 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Or do I have to have a patent :-(


What you're describing is "prior art".

The most important part of any patent is the list of "claims". Each one
must be original, must not be public knowledge and must never have been
claimed in another patent.

Any claim within a patent can be challenged, if it can be shown that
something covered in that claim was public knowledge prior to the date
of filing.

Patents are challenged by disputing claims - so a common outcome of a
legal challenge is that *some* of the claims in a particular patent are
invalidated.

So what counts as prior art?

Almost anything to which the public can gain access.

That could be an article in a magazine, something described in a radio
or tv programme, or presented at a conference or public lecture.

Something in written/diagram form is best - particularly if it has a
wide circulation *and a publication date*. If it's a publication that
some libraries archive, so much the better.

(Private communications - emails, letters, your own notebooks, internal
company documents etc - CANNOT be used to show prior art)

And yes - patent claims are invalidated all the time on prior art.

One very straightforward way to do it is to send a copy of the material
you believe to show prior art to the patent lawyer that made the
application.

The patent lawyer then has a professional duty to inform the relevant
patent office (i.e. their professional body won't take kindly if they
ignore this responsibility)

(If they didn't use a patent lawyer, then it's some crank in a tinfoil
hat that isn't worth worrying about - all serious patent applications
use patent lawyers as writing a *good* patent isn't easy).

A good place to start is to check whether your idea *is already patented*.

See google's patent search: https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts

Google's patent search is so good now, professionals use this for their
initial searches.

(BTW - An expired or abandoned patent also counts as "prior art").

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:05:44 +0000, Adrian C wrote:

Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Or do I have to have a patent :-(

Whatever you do you will find that Apple, Oracle or some other ****stain entity
from the USA will crawl out of the woodwork and claim they invented it first and
sue you into oblivion.

--

In article , The Other Mike
writes

Whatever you do you will find that Apple, Oracle or some other ****stain entity
from the USA will crawl out of the woodwork and claim they invented it first and
sue you into oblivion.

My favourite David and Goliath tale in the patent stakes[1] is of an
unassuming bloke who was making and selling a few windsurfers and got
sued by the patent holder of the universal joint at the base of mast
that makes it all possible for failure to pay royalties.

He fought it, pulling out a few ancient and unpublished notebook
sketches as prior art and putting his mum on the stand who testified
that she had indeed seen Timmy on the lake at the bottom of the garden
tacking back and forward up and down in his teens. She was a convincing
witness and the judge sided with Timmy.

Half the then makers of windsurfers then dumped their royalty agreements
with Windsurfer Inc to sign more beneficial ones with him and he made a
packet.

That's my recollection, possibly a bit romanticised but that's the way I
like it.

[1] Dyson is close second for sticking it to Hoover when they tried to
f'ck him over but he does build such tat.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

My favourite David and Goliath tale in the patent stakes[1] is of an
unassuming bloke who was making and selling a few windsurfers and got
sued by the patent holder of the universal joint at the base of mast
that makes it all possible for failure to pay royalties.

He fought it, pulling out a few ancient and unpublished notebook
sketches as prior art and putting his mum on the stand who testified
that she had indeed seen Timmy on the lake at the bottom of the garden
tacking back and forward up and down in his teens. She was a convincing
witness and the judge sided with Timmy.

An unpublished notebook cannot be prior art, because it isn't "public".

However it might be used as evidence to support the date for some other
claim of "prior art" that is in the public domain.

If Timmy had offered a few of his windsurfers for sale to the public,
then that would be "publishing" - because it shows off his idea, and it
is "public".

But - unless he file a patent *prior to putting one of his windsurfers
on sale* then he couldn't subsequently file a patent.

If you intend to patent, you must keep your idea secret until you file
your patent application.



Half the then makers of windsurfers then dumped their royalty agreements
with Windsurfer Inc to sign more beneficial ones with him and he made a
packet.

They might have made some kind of payment to him to a) acknowledge his
contribution to their business b) help him with legal costs in
overturning the bogus patent by the other company.

But I can't see how he could have retrospectively obtained a patent.

In article , Dom Ostrowski
writes

But I can't see how he could have retrospectively obtained a patent.

I didn't say he did.

As I said, my recollection may be somewhat romanticised but here are a
couple of links to the real story:

Background:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsurfing

and the man himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Chilvers
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 12/12/12 12:53, fred wrote:
In article , Dom Ostrowski writes

But I can't see how he could have retrospectively obtained a patent.

I didn't say he did.

As I said, my recollection may be somewhat romanticised but here are a
couple of links to the real story:

Background:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsurfing

and the man himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Chilvers


Thanks for that. Most interesting.

With a name, I was able to find this:

"The most well-known example of the novelty principle being applied,
certainly in my home area of Portsmouth and Hayling Island, is the case
Windsurfing International Inc v Tabur Marine (GB) Ltd. 1985 RPC 59.
This involved a dispute between the owners of the US windsurfing patent
filed by the American inventors of windsurfers Drake and Hoyle in 1968
and granted in 1970, and the UK company, which was a licensee.
Extremely fortuitously for Tabur Marine’s patent lawyers, the found
evidence in a local newspaper that a Hayling Island schoolboy, Peter
Chilvers, had invented a board and sail combination, with the key
element of a universal joint at the foot of the mast, in 1958. So this
was prior art, which, if you can bear the pun, shot the American’s
patent out of the water. With the US patent then declared invalid,
Tabur Marine could stop paying Windsurfing International royalties. The
original tests for novelty set out in Windsurfing International are
still applied, albeit slightly amended by the later Court of Appeal case
Pozzoli Spa v BDMO SA & Anor [2007] EWCA Civ 588."

From he

http://timeritous.wordpress.com/2010...-demonstrated/

(along with some other sound advice on patent law)

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:05:44 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Publish it all over the place, as much and as rapidly as you can so it
becomes indisputdibly public knowledge and no ****er can claim it as
their own. Make sure your name is well integrated into the document.

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:05:44 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:


So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

The easiest way is to "publish" it by placing details on a publicly
accessible web site.

On 12/12/2012 09:11, Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:05:44 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:


So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

The easiest way is to "publish" it by placing details on a publicly
accessible web site.

Would Usenet do?

On 12/12/12 09:29, Andrew May wrote:
On 12/12/2012 09:11, Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:05:44 +0000, Adrian C
wrote:


So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

The easiest way is to "publish" it by placing details on a publicly
accessible web site.

Would Usenet do?

Usenet would be good because it's archived by Google - and has a date
associated with it.

A lot of web content comes and goes, and may leave no permanent trace.

However a commercial publication, offered for sale to the public in
physical hard-copy, would I think most likely be best.

In challenging a patent claim, the easier it is to show indisputable
prior art the better. Ideally you want your prior art to be so
well-known that no-one even attempts a patent in the first place.

(or that it can be shown that a person, working in that area, should
have been aware of the published article)

On 12/12/2012 10:42, Dom Ostrowski wrote:

Usenet would be good because it's archived by Google - and has a date
associated with it.

A lot of web content comes and goes, and may leave no permanent trace.

However a commercial publication, offered for sale to the public in
physical hard-copy, would I think most likely be best.

In challenging a patent claim, the easier it is to show indisputable
prior art the better. Ideally you want your prior art to be so
well-known that no-one even attempts a patent in the first place.

(or that it can be shown that a person, working in that area, should
have been aware of the published article)

JOOI, if I wrote up my idea and didn't publish it myself but could show
when I had written it up could that be used to invalidate a patent. That
would have the advantage of allowing me to continue work without
alerting the potential competition but give me some protection if they
came up with the same idea later.

I am thinking along the lines of posting it to a lawyer for safe keeping.

I note that this is not what the OP is trying to achieve.

JOOI, if I wrote up my idea and didn't publish it myself but could show
when I had written it up could that be used to invalidate a patent.

No - that definitely could not invalidate any claim within a patent.

The keyword is PUBLIC.

It is often the case that 2 companies are (secretly) researching the
same thing - the first to patent wins the game - it doesn't matter that
the other company may also have been about to patent (or publish) the
same thing (or had done the work, but overlooked patenting or publishing).

(NB Putting a product on sale to the public that uses your idea - is
also "publishing")

If you PUBLISH, you cannot subsequently PATENT.

Patentable ideas must be kept secret until you file your patent.

On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:38:13 +0000, Andrew May
wrote:

JOOI, if I wrote up my idea and didn't publish it myself but could show
when I had written it up could that be used to invalidate a patent. That
would have the advantage of allowing me to continue work without
alerting the potential competition but give me some protection if they
came up with the same idea later.

I am thinking along the lines of posting it to a lawyer for safe keeping.

Yes, if you include a front page of today's newspaper, properly sealed
envelope (with wax seal) etc and properly date-stamped by the PO.
It's what a lawyer told me years ago in exactly the same circumstance.

On 12/12/2012 10:42, Dom Ostrowski wrote:

In challenging a patent claim, the easier it is to show indisputable
prior art the better. Ideally you want your prior art to be so
well-known that no-one even attempts a patent in the first place.

I have had some ideas put into IETF and ITU standards and that doesn't
stop people from *trying* to patent it. It is a sure fire way to prove
prior art though.

On 11/12/12 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Just post the details here, by making it public it becomes
unpatentable,and if anyone tries we have proof here of "prior art"



--
djc

On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:01:15 +0000, djc wrote:

On 11/12/12 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

Just post the details here, by making it public it becomes
unpatentable,and if anyone tries we have proof here of "prior art"

I'd recommend publishing it in as many sources as possible. Web,
usenet, newspapers, journals etc.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On 11/12/2012 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china.

This time next year Rodney...


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/12/2012 21:05, Adrian C wrote:
Me, mad?

On my way home I had a brainwave, something to do with {daren't say},
and think it's a possible patentable idea. I could sell loads of these
items (if I could get of my backside and make 'em), and so could
everyone else from here to china. However, I don't want to go to time,
expense and effort in patenting it, I don't care if others out there
want to go and manufacture the same product. What I do care about is
some toerag registering the patent for themselves and doing us all out
of the potential market and benefits.

A patent isn't necessarily all that expensive to get if the idea is
sufficiently novel and not already patented. The other option is to keep
it as a trade secret and semi flood the market with your product to gain
first mover advantage. You run the risk that someone else files a patent
in the meantime. You get about 30% share and the next two half decent
"me-twos" will get about the same share. Once it becomes public domain
then everyone and their dog will jump on the bandwagon.

These rules of thumb apply to high tech kit.

So what's the best way of ruining the patent potential of this. Has this
successfully been done? Does it involve climbing Nelson's column armed
with a megaphone, or is there an easier way?

That won't prevent some American toerag from patenting it. USPTOs only
test these days is are your dollars green and in sufficient quantity.

Or do I have to have a patent :-(

If you think the thing is valuable - then basically yes.

An example of how to release a patentable invention in such a way as to
prevent patenting can be deduced by studying how the technique of
monoclonal antibodies was announced to the world. The UK office supposed
to be reponsible for assessing patentability could not get their heads
round something that was not an obvious mechanical widget.

Regards,
Martin Brown