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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Strengthening ceiling joists
I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy.
Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill, and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting myself at risk by going down this route. Thoughts, anyone? Thanks Edward |
#2
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Strengthening ceiling joists
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#4
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Strengthening ceiling joists
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#5
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Strengthening ceiling joists
On Oct 24, 8:49*am, wrote:
I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know what I mean, I hope!). *I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. *Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. *This would be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy. Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill, and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting myself at risk by going down this route. Thoughts, anyone? Thanks Edward If your roof has purlins. You nail/screw a bit of 4x2 across the ceiling joists at 90 deg,immediately beneath the purlins. Then you put vertical ties/ hangers between this bit of wood and the purlins. This supports the ceiling off the purlins. In a proper roof, this should have been done already. If it has,you can put in additional ties/hangers. Most ceilings have additional support off partition walls below. Your inspector may just be covering his arse. Most are complete ******* anyway. A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far more |
#6
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Strengthening ceiling joists
On 24/10/2012 09:16, harry wrote:
On Oct 24, 8:49 am, wrote: I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy. Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill, and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting myself at risk by going down this route. Thoughts, anyone? Thanks Edward If your roof has purlins. You nail/screw a bit of 4x2 across the ceiling joists at 90 deg,immediately beneath the purlins. Then you put vertical ties/ hangers between this bit of wood and the purlins. This supports the ceiling off the purlins. In a proper roof, this should have been done already. If it has,you can put in additional ties/hangers. Most ceilings have additional support off partition walls below. Your inspector may just be covering his arse. Most are complete ******* anyway. A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far more harry, Which "inspector"? None mentioned by OP. An excuse for trotting out your bile on BIs? -- Rod |
#7
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Strengthening ceiling joists
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote: On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, Ugh, very messy. One assumes you are living in this house or will be whilst this work happens. How about putting more 4x2's cross ways to the existing ceiling joists? That would spread the load and give you an 8" gap to fill with insulation... I suspect that each crossing point really ought to be fixed to prevent movement and make a more rigid structure. you will need to make sure your additional piece is supported at the ends by the walls - otherwise it's just an extra load. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
#8
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Strengthening ceiling joists
Subject to above, screwing gluing extra bits on is a good plan.
Just make sure you can wangle long enough pieces through the loft trapdoor. And don't forget to incorporate insulation into your plan. |
#9
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Strengthening ceiling joists
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, Ugh, very messy. One assumes you are living in this house or will be whilst this work happens. How about putting more 4x2's cross ways to the existing ceiling joists? That doesn't net the same stiffening. That would spread the load and give you an 8" gap to fill with insulation... I suspect that each crossing point really ought to be fixed to prevent movement and make a more rigid structure. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#11
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Strengthening ceiling joists
wrote in message ... I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy. snip During the course of our refurb we found that our ground floor is on 2*4 at (IIRC) 350mm centres. So in principle no great problem in supporting a loft floor as long as the length of the joist between supports is not excessive and the spacing between joists is likewise not excessive. There are calculators around online to tell you what minimum joists you need for a given length and spacing. Our loft is on 4*2s at (IIRC) about 400mm spacing. I've floored it in with chipboard which is screwed to the joists so that should give a little more strength. Loads of crap up there and the ceilings haven't come down yet. AFAICS the main benefit of increasing the joist height is to allow you to get more insulation down between the joists before flooring over. Alternatively you could lay Celotex across the joists then chipboard on top of that and screw through. This gives more structural rigidity and more insulation. Oh, and I am assuming that to glue the new wood down you would have to make sure that the tops of the old joists are reasonably clean :-) Cheers Dave R -- No plan survives contact with the enemy. [Not even bunny] Helmuth von Moltke the Elder (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
#12
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Strengthening ceiling joists
In article
, harry wrote: Your inspector may just be covering his arse. Most are complete ******* anyway. A structural engineer isn't an 'inspector'. A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far more Fine (maybe) if your house is the same as others he's seen. But it's very unlikely he will be able to do the calculations required. Nor will he have the insurance a pro does. -- *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#13
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Strengthening ceiling joists
Many thanks to all posters. There are a number of solutions that I'll cost out and discuss with the carpenter. I think the main difficulty would be getting the lengths of timber into the roof space - I'm currently thinking that when I put in the recommended air bricks into the gable ends will provide the opportunity to feed in the timber.
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#14
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Strengthening ceiling joists
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#15
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Strengthening ceiling joists
wrote in message ... - I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but - you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's - visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for - storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade - the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking - down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother - suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing -(and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would - be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy. - Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is - a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill, - and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase - about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that - they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting - myself at risk by going down this route. - Thoughts, anyone? - Thanks - Edward You don't actually say what you intend to store in the attic or how heavy its likely to be. But unless you also intend to widen the loft hatch in the old house, then there's a limit to the size, and presumably the number of really heavy things you'll be able to get up there. So that all you need do is mark out your joists as go along as you board up your loft and once its finished measure out from below and mark up on the loft floor above exactly where your supporting walls are underneath. And then make sure, if you're worried about it that you only put really heavy things directly above where a joist crosses a supporting wall. I've got 4x2's and the heaviest thing I've put up in my loft is a radial arm saw in bits which I winched up on a pulley directly above the hatch. Though the loft was already partly boarded up I didn't bother with the marking at the time but simply measured up below to identify the best spot over a supporting wall. Then in 50 years time the person you sold your house to will be posting on here (some hopes) asking if anyone can explain all the strange marks on his loft floor michael adams .... |
#16
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Strengthening ceiling joists
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 8:49:21 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy. Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill, and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting myself at risk by going down this route. Thoughts, anyone? Thanks Edward You forgot to tell us the span and spacing of the 4x2s. Those figures change everything. NT |
#17
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Strengthening ceiling joists
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#18
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Strengthening ceiling joists
On Oct 24, 11:02*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , * *harry wrote: Your inspector may just be covering his arse. Most are complete ******* anyway. A structural engineer isn't an 'inspector'. A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far more Fine (maybe) if your house is the same as others he's seen. But it's very unlikely he will be able to do the calculations required. Nor will he have the insurance a pro does. Calculations can be got wrong. Someone experienced in building construction is far more reliable than some twerp who has only read books. I have never had a prospective house purchase surveyed. Determining domestic house faults is not rocket science as some would have you believe. |
#19
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Strengthening ceiling joists
In article
, harry wrote: Calculations can be got wrong. Someone experienced in building construction is far more reliable than some twerp who has only read books. You think a structural engineer only reads books? BTW, how do you find this mythical experienced carpenter? Take his word for it? I have never had a prospective house purchase surveyed. You could start by finding out the difference between a surveyor and a structural engineer. Determining domestic house faults is not rocket science as some would have you believe. And this topic is about 'house faults'? Perhaps, Harry, you should go back to books and learn now to read properly. -- *The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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